Gender and Gender Identity

[Obscure_Trash]

Except that the goto response for some trans people (at least here) is that no matter what, a person misgendering them is automatically doing so maliciously - which I argue that many are just not accustomed to or familiar with the trans community in general. There is no 'benefit of the doubt' for some people.

 

If someone only expects the worst of people, then that's all they're ever going to see/experience. And this isn't from me, but something I learned from my therapist.

Okay... This isn't an argument against politely asking people their pronouns, though? You ask pronouns so you don't misgender someone or refer to them incorrectly, like Jimmy said. =o

 

I do not see for one second how asking for pronouns is "alienating cis people" lol. Gonna need an explanation here.

 

While I think gender neutrality should be a big part of our lives (there's no need to aggressively gender infants who hav no concept of gender and gender neutrality until they do does not harm anyone), I have seen tons of people throw fits over gender neutral pronouns, even them/they because "grammar" (ie transphobia). I've seen then insist they will use he/her to alienate those of us who do actually prefer gender neutral pronouns (while ironically using them in the same sentence). So yeah, people do get "offended" over gender neutral pronouns. But mostly just to try and hurt people like me.

Which is not an argument to not use gender neutral pronouns. I think when referring to people you don't know, you should absolutely use gender neutral pronouns. But if you know someone and are talking to them, it's just as easy to ask which pronouns they prefer. I an not saying to ask everyone you pass on the street what pronouns they prefer. Just people you are acquainted with, at least on a semi-consistent basis.

 

~

 

Sapphira, if you don't feel safe/comfortable doing it, that is fine. That is why we should normalize it - because people are uncomfortable doing so since so many don't. I'm glad you ask your friends. That is awesome. :3

[Omega Entity]

Ah, see, I was misunderstanding the situation here. If it's someone that I'm remotely familiar with (i.e., an actual aquaintence), then sure, I'll ask. I thought you all meant that you should ask -anyone- who you're not sure about what their pronouns are, which is where I'm running into a problem. I thought you were advocating asking complete strangers what they'd prefer, which would cause any number of problems at my job.

 

Which, speaking of... There was a transman that came in one day who I had to take down info for for one of our membership cards. When I asked for his name, he said that his legal name was *insert female name here* (I don't recall what it was). I mentioned that he could put whatever name he wanted on the thing, since it's not like a legal document or anything, and his response was one of utter relief. "Oh, thank god. It's James!". Made me feel good that I made his day.

 

 

 

[Indigo_Dragon]

While I think gender neutrality should be a big part of our lives (there's no need to aggressively gender infants who hav no concept of gender and gender neutrality until they do does not harm anyone), I have seen tons of people throw fits over gender neutral pronouns, even them/they because "grammar" (ie transphobia). I've seen then insist they will use he/her to alienate those of us who do actually prefer gender neutral pronouns (while ironically using them in the same sentence). So yeah, people do get "offended" over gender neutral pronouns. But mostly just to try and hurt people like me.

Which is not an argument to not use gender neutral pronouns. I think when referring to people you don't know, you should absolutely use gender neutral pronouns. But if you know someone and are talking to them, it's just as easy to ask which pronouns they prefer. I an not saying to ask everyone you pass on the street what pronouns they prefer. Just people you are acquainted with, at least on a semi-consistent basis.

 

~

 

Sapphira, if you don't feel safe/comfortable doing it, that is fine. That is why we should normalize it - because people are uncomfortable doing so since so many don't. I'm glad you ask your friends. That is awesome. :3

I totally agree with you Sock. And I've noticed similar problems too, though even the transfolk in the binary run into some particularly NASTY harassment by those we thought were close to us that refuse to change their pronouns and think of us in the gender we prefer - no matter how long we've known each other. I've had to deal with that with an ex-friend, their mother, and recently a good trans friend got a text from a "good" old friend who had mistakenly sent it to their number and that devastated them.

 

So no, I'm not too surprised there's a huge fuss going on over pronouns period, let alone over asking someone their pronouns, using them correctly, and even using gender-neutral ones for people when they ask.

 

Anyways I really should put in a more obvious place that I'd rather be called Indigo than Sapphira? Yeesh really wish we could change our account names on here. :'<

 

I do make sure to ask my friends though. :3 <3 I would ask my family but most of them seem pretty cishet and IDK I don't feel comfortable asking them. ;;; Friends are at least someone I'm more familiar with and don't worry about any backlash from that. I agree with you on the normalizing it though! I mean, truly, what IS wrong with being asked what pronouns you prefer? Why do people have to make such a big deal out of it? Especially when its done out of respectful curiosity and a want to be polite and respectful of you too. :/ Yeesh.

[Shienvien]

One person's polite inquiry is another's breach of privacy and comfort zone. For a person who has lived their entire life being mocked for liking the opposite sex's stuff despite being cis it can be a bit of a kick in the groin, for instance.

[Obscure_Trash]

One person's polite inquiry is another's breach of privacy and comfort zone. For a person who has lived their entire life being mocked for liking the opposite sex's stuff despite being cis it can be a bit of a kick in the groin, for instance.

Exactly why we should normalize asking for pronouns/saying our pronouns when we introduce ourselves. It's not about singling anybody out. It is about normalizing more gender neutrality/nonaggresseive gendering and less cisnormativity.

[JavaTigress]

I admit, it might feel a bit ODD to be asked for my pronouns.

 

That said,for me personally I don't think Id be offended. More amused than anything, I think.I'd probably just GIVE the person that asked for them my pronouns (She/her, though they/them would work)and move on with my life.

 

That said,I DO get Shienvien's concern that some people might not take it that way

 

Also @ Omega Entity- Can't a person legally change their name if they don't like it? For WHATEVER reason? NOT sure what that would involve.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Silverswift

[Omega Entity]

He wasn't legally an adult judging by how old he looked, and I'm not sure he had his family's support. I live and work in a community that isn't known for its acceptance of people who fall outside of the 'norm', despite it being in a county with a supposedly high population of gay and lesbian people.

[DaedricD]

I went nearly all my life thinking there was just something "wrong" with me for "not feeling like a girl." The best, and most confusing, thing was finding out that I wasn't alone in thinking it and then realizing all the transphobia/discrimination that, unfortunately, goes along with it.

 

I can't really pass as male and I constantly get misgendered. It suck mainly because I can't seem to locate a binder that bloody well fits. Anyone else have that issue with finding a binder?

[Obscure_Trash]

Any of the places listed here offer anything in your size? Sorry you're having so much trouble and being misgendered, DaedricD! D:

[Indigo_Dragon]

DaedricD I know it totally sucks when you have big breasts and people ALWAYS take the hint of boobs to automatically mean "woman." So if you try to dress manly all the same, all of a sudden you're read as a "butch lesbian" which is TOTALLY not true. D:

 

I still have trouble with swimwear because I refuse to wear a binder during swimming [too uncomfortable and strangulation] and have stopped wearing binders of late for the same reason. I really don't like being reminded that I have things there which any sort of pressure tends to tell my mind that my chest is shaped EXACTLY like that, and my mind doesn't like it. That's why most of my days [spent at home] are with no bras, and loose-fitting shirts. That way my mind can trick itself to thinking "oh I have a flat chest!" without any of the contour pressure to tell me otherwise. (If that makes sense?)

 

However, it HAS led to a lot of worry and anxiety over how to present myself so that I can be taken as a man and my boobs will not be seen. I know with people who have large breasts its almost impossible even with a good binder. Makes me wish that people would just STOOOOOOOOOOOP associating breasts = woman. Hell there's men who have bigger breasts than many A and even B cupped women. Can we just stop with the breasts fixation already?! >.<

 

All I can say is don't use bandage tape to wrap yourself because that leads to a lot of health problems. Comfortable binders are a must but you can also overlap several bras [sports bras I think are best] to compress the chest a bit more too if that helps? I know the bra market for those with big boobs is horrific and expensive and hard to access so I don't really know how to help you there. D:

 

Stay strong my friend! Stay strong dude! I'm [and all the rest of the transmen community are] here for you! *bro hug*

[Shienvien]

To be fair, no language needs gendered pronouns to begin with. My native language is without. It very effectively spares people from asking, being asked, misgendering someone, and being misgendered...

[gad786]

im a guy physically and psychologically.

 

i dress masculine and in male clothes.i just like to dress well and look good.

 

the only way in which i am a "deviant"is i like to have long hair,although now i have pretty short hair but this used to be me:

 

then i did this:

 

when i posted that photo my uncle said it was too feminine and that long hair is okay but not styled femininely.usually i had it in a "brobun"

 

big mistake,i know,but i wont cut my hair even for styling for another 6 years.so,it wont be cut till 2021

 

any comments are welcome.

Edited October 6, 2015 by gad786

[kitsune93]

@gad786

Guys with long hair are awesome. Your long hair looks awesome.

Ignore your uncle. There's nothing feminine about long hair.

Hair length has nothing to do with gender identity.

[Shienvien]

Oh, I love the look of long hair on men specifically (I like the look of long hair in general, but I don't care for other women and/or female people, so I'm much less likely to notice or pay attention to what they do or don't do with theirs). Very short hair tends to be much more impersonal, somehow, and eh... I suppose I personally just find it less attractive in general, whatever the main reason my brain has decided so.

[Omen]

Any of the places listed here offer anything in your size? Sorry you're having so much trouble and being misgendered, DaedricD! D:

I'd recommend gc2b binders DaedricD, in addition to the websites listed on that tumblr page. I've had mine (a half length binder) for a few months and I find it to be very comfortable.

 

Also @ Omega Entity- Can't a person legally change their name if they don't like it? For WHATEVER reason? NOT sure what that would involve.

Yep, you can legally change your name for whatever reason, other than for fraudulent purposes. If you're underage, I think you need parental/guardian permission unless you have an exemption which is above my current knowledge of name changing.

 

The reason why a lot of people have difficulty with changing their names (other than age) is the cost and/or requirements. For me, it was as straightforward as filling out a form on my state's Births, Deaths and Marriages website, providing certified documents, and then paying the required cost, including postage. The cost itself took me a few months to afford, but that was my only obstacle in the grand scheme of things. Changing my name with organisations once I received a new birth certificate was in most cases, very easy.

 

Elsewhere like in the US, some states require the person who is changing their name to appear at court and give their reason. In addition, some places still require a newspaper notice which can incur additional costs and possibly out the person changing their name. If that wasn't enough, fees can vary wildly from state to state. Having family support makes a name change a lot easier if you're still living at home as well.

[St. Jimmy]

The reason why a lot of people have difficulty with changing their names (other than age) is the cost and/or requirements. For me, it was as straightforward as filling out a form on my state's Births, Deaths and Marriages website, providing certified documents, and then paying the required cost, including postage. The cost itself took me a few months to afford, but that was my only obstacle in the grand scheme of things. Changing my name with organisations once I received a new birth certificate was in most cases, very easy.

 

Elsewhere like in the US, some states require the person who is changing their name to appear at court and give their reason. In addition, some places still require a newspaper notice which can incur additional costs and possibly out the person changing their name. If that wasn't enough, fees can vary wildly from state to state. Having family support makes a name change a lot easier if you're still living at home as well.

Some states also require you to have lived in the same county for a certain amount of time. And get fingerprinted, which costs money to get done AND to file.

 

The judge also asked me if my name change was because I'm trans... not sure how legal that is; it's really none of his business.

[TameTheHarpie]

nonbinary babe here, they/them pronouns only

[Buddy]

I'm femenine nonbinary and I prefer she/her or they/them pronouns 'v'

[arcadegannon]

im nonbinary with more masculine leanings? i like he/him pronouns and thon/thons/thonself pronouns :^0

[Txngo]

Both? There's more than two genders/sexes. ^^;;

Again with completely throwing facts out the window

 

There are 2 genders in every species in the entire planet

 

You also mentioned sexes which isn't the same thing as gender (According to sjw liberals and feminists ect)

 

Even if you try to argue that there are more than 2 genders (which there isn't but I've heard it many times), there are still only 2 sexes

 

 

[Kith]

there are still only 2 sexes

Given that there are intersex individuals, I'd say this was incorrect; there'd have to be at least three sexes to cover every human being.

[Obscure_Trash]

Again with completely throwing facts out the window

 

There are 2 genders in every species in the entire planet

 

You also mentioned sexes which isn't the same thing as gender (According to sjw liberals and feminists ect)

 

Even if you try to argue that there are more than 2 genders (which there isn't but I've heard it many times), there are still only 2 sexes

Warning for possible language in links, although I didn't catch anything specific.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/fausto-sterling.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/12/opinion/...?pagewanted=all

http://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common...exes-in-humans/

 

Please have fun reading! I'm so glad you keep asking questions because I love being able to answer questions. :D

[Stromboli]

Even if you try to argue that there are more than 2 genders (which there isn't but I've heard it many times), there are still only 2 sexes

Most cultures have historically accepted a gender binary, sure, but there have been some that didn't. Particularly before interaction with European colonialism, which spread firm binary gender systems to places where there previously may not have been one.

 

Also about the "There are 2 genders in every species in the entire planet"? I mean, if we're talking about gender as referring to a social role, there are certain animals that have some serious gender variations within species. The biggest ones I know of are side-blotched lizards, which have three male and two female variations, and ruff birds, which have three male variations. Within their species, each variation has its own physical and social characteristics.

[Switch]

Again with completely throwing facts out the window

 

There are 2 genders in every species in the entire planet

 

You also mentioned sexes which isn't the same thing as gender (According to sjw liberals and feminists ect)

 

Even if you try to argue that there are more than 2 genders (which there isn't but I've heard it many times), there are still only 2 sexes

dude have u never heard of being intersex. its been observed in humans and animals for ages all around the world. more well-known historical accounts date back to like, the 17th century, but thats not to mention mythology and creation stories featuring intersex characters that date back several thousand more years, which should make it obvious the concept of more than two sexes is not definitely something new or obscure or made up by modern-day liberals :\ maybe do some actual reading & research u might learn something

Edited January 24, 2016 by Switch

[Txngo]

Most cultures have historically accepted a gender binary, sure, but there have been some that didn't. Particularly before interaction with European colonialism, which spread firm binary gender systems to places where there previously may not have been one.

 

Also about the "There are 2 genders in every species in the entire planet"? I mean, if we're talking about gender as referring to a social role, there are certain animals that have some serious gender variations within species. The biggest ones I know of are side-blotched lizards, which have three male and two female variations, and ruff birds, which have three male variations. Within their species, each variation has its own physical and social characteristics.

"Most cultures have historically accepted a gender binary, sure, but there have been some that didn't. Particularly before interaction with European colonialism, which spread firm binary gender systems to places where there previously may not have been one."

 

I didn't say gender did I

 

Sex is biological

 

Your sex refers to what you were physically born as

 

Even if you say there are more than 2 genders (Which I don't necessarily disagree with) there are still only 2 sexes