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[shikaru]

Well I'm not sure of DC, but generally what it was like on other forums I've been on (and my own) is that people do not like being bumped or told what to do by random people in community. This not only upsets many of them, it makes them reluctant to move around freely and become more involved with community. Besides you will never know if you're the only one who did it. What if a person gets PMs from 4 different people reminding them for one slip up they had. It would feel like an entire army is after their life and make the community look extremely restricted. And what if the mini modding person takes it to next level trying to practice "authority" or throwing around weight? Happens often and this is not something staff people do or are supposed to do, which is one prime reason why only designated staff members are allowed to handle site issues instead of everyone jumping the bandwagon. It is also a fact many people feel more comfortable receiving reminder from staff because that's what they do and they're known to adhere to protecting privacy of members, while the same can't be assumed for normal members. Many communities also set "guidelines" for forum to better manage them but aren't cut throat about them to go as far as warn everyone who slips up once a while, it can happen to anyone. So while the rules are there to remind you what you need to do, they won't hang you upside down if they deem you to be someone who wasn't intentionally trying to break the rules. Mini modding in such cases can go against the interests of staff. Again this is generally speaking, not talking about DC.

I suppose that makes sense, though I've never seen an instance personally of these types of things getting out of hand on forums I've been on. There are ways to word things that aren't patronizing, and sometimes someone is new and just didn't know. Regardless this is based on my opinion/experiences, but I could see how it could turn out that way.

Edited February 4, 2013 by shikaru

[schmupti]

Also, THIS. One of my warns was because a mod, not to name any names, thought my opinion was attacking his/her skills. I said that a certain colour scheme made my eyes bleed. [...]

 

This mod made the decision purely based on his/her feelings which I apparently had hurt, not on the basis of any rule. His/her reason was "Criticism is fine but should be expressed in a way that is not disrespectful". Ok, well, it wasn't disrespectful, I was stating how I preferred this colour scheme because the other one made me uncomfortable.

I'd like to see mods draw a distinction between attacks/abusive behavior and simple rudeness/sarcasm. People get fired up in conversations, but that's not the same as jumping down someone's throat.

 

For the criticism remark: "makes my eyes bleed" is a fairly common bit of hyperbole for a harsh color combo. I don't see how it's disrespectful, unless you also said, "And you're a terrible person for selecting it."

 

There's this idea among creative types that any criticism is automatically rude, disrespectful, snarky, an attack, 'jealousy', etc., unless you're bending over backwards to point out positives, cushion any affected egos, and gently suggest minor changes--oh, but only minor changes, because anything major would impugn the integrity of the work.

 

I make a living writing and editing. I get paid to do it, well enough to pay the bills. Nothing wastes more of my time than having to protect some suit's fragile ego by pointing out exactly where and why they're wrong about all the changes they've shoehorned into a document, while 'gently suggesting' necessary grammar corrections to keep them from sounding like hacks. The only thing that comes in second is asking someone for criticism and having them gush with vague "Yay! You participated!" praise because somewhere, in their time as a beta reader, someone rammed it through their head that they're not allowed to point out flaws or have a real opinion.*

 

It's frustrating as all get-out.

 

That's where I'm coming from when I say that I see the whole 'disrespectful criticism' thing as baloney. The only time I've found criticism disrespectful was when it criticized the writer/artist rather than the work. I'd rather someone said, "This is crap!" and tell me why than gloss over real problems just to spare my feelings.

 

But that's just me.

 

* Except maybe re-reading a post I just made and spotting typos and slip-ups. Har.

Edited February 4, 2013 by schmupti

[shikaru]

I'd like to see mods draw a distinction between attacks/abusive behavior and simple rudeness/sarcasm. People get fired up in conversations, but that's not the same as jumping down someone's throat.

 

For the criticism remark: "makes my eyes bleed" is a fairly common bit of hyperbole for a harsh color combo. I don't see how it's disrespectful, unless you also said, "And you're a terrible person for selecting it."

 

There's this idea among creative types that any criticism is automatically rude, disrespectful, snarky, an attack, 'jealousy', etc., unless you're bending over backwards to point out positives, cushion any affected egos, and gently suggest minor changes--oh, but only minor changes, because anything major would impugn the integrity of the work.

 

I make a living writing and editing. I get paid to do it, well enough to pay the bills. Nothing wastes more of my time than having to protect some suit's fragile ego by pointing out exactly where and why they're wrong about all the changes they've shoehorned into a document, while 'gently suggesting' necessary grammar corrections to keep them from sounding like hacks. The only thing that comes in second is asking someone for criticism and having them gush with vague "Yay! You participated!" praise because somewhere, in their time as a beta reader, someone rammed it through their head that they're not allowed to point out flaws or have a real opinion.*

 

It's frustrating as all get-out.

 

That's where I'm coming from when I say that I see the whole 'disrespectful criticism' thing as baloney. The only time I've found criticism disrespectful was when it criticized the writer/artist rather than the work. I'd rather someone said, "This is crap!" and tell me why than gloss over real problems just to spare my feelings.

 

But that's just me.

 

* Except maybe re-reading a post I just made and spotting typos and slip-ups. Har.

It's hard to make such a distinction simply because context is one of the most important things when determining if someone is attacking someone or not. There are some cases where it's obvious no matter the situation (like direct name-calling/cursing someone out), but others aren't as clear cut. Both members and mods need to use judgement here, and sadly it also leads into opinion because what one person finds offensive is different than another.

 

I agree with you on the criticism regards. I don't think 'constructive criticism' means you have to sugar-coat or add positives into the mix. It's perfectly fine to criticize someone's use of color, their idea, etc without also going "But I like x." It's all about how you present the thought. I think "makes my eyes bleed" is a fine statement to make, because you're using that hyperbole to show that the colors clash so much as to cause eye strain/pain. You're giving a reason for saying you don't like the colors, rather than just going "I think yellow is ugly".

 

That said, artists are sensitive about their work because it is kind of a direct representation of themselves in a way. (Wow that sentence is terrible). Some are more easily offended than others, and it's tough to gauge, just like with anything. It's the problem with human interactions and it's a tough thing to try to moderate. So while you and I agree that things shouldn't need to be sugarcoated, there are plenty of others that likely think we're "insensitive jerks" for thinking that way.

 

As an aside to that, I actually had a friend who I literally stopped giving critiques because anything less than "OMG THIS IS AMAZING MAKE MORE" would offend her. She would constantly berate me for 'never complementing her' when I would bring up anatomy issues to her and the like. :|

[Fuzzbucket]

Well I'm not sure of DC, but generally what it was like on other forums I've been on (and my own) is that people do not like being bumped or told what to do by random people in community. This not only upsets many of them, it makes them reluctant to move around freely and become more involved with community. Besides you will never know if you're the only one who did it. What if a person gets PMs from 4 different people reminding them for one slip up they had. It would feel like an entire army is after their life and make the community look extremely restricted. And what if the mini modding person takes it to next level trying to practice "authority" or throwing around weight? Happens often and this is not something staff people do or are supposed to do, which is one prime reason why only designated staff members are allowed to handle site issues instead of everyone jumping the bandwagon. It is also a fact many people feel more comfortable receiving reminder from staff because that's what they do and they're known to adhere to protecting privacy of members, while the same can't be assumed for normal members. Many communities also set "guidelines" for forum to better manage them but aren't cut throat about them to go as far as warn everyone who slips up once a while, it can happen to anyone. So while the rules are there to remind you what you need to do, they won't hang you upside down if they deem you to be someone who wasn't intentionally trying to break the rules. Mini modding in such cases can go against the interests of staff. Again this is generally speaking, not talking about DC.

^this^

 

On another forum I have been told (and I think justifiably, when I think about it !) "you're not a mod, you don't get to tell me what to do."

 

Well, sure, one can remind people of the rules, but ultimately that can easily sounds a bit like a little kid "I'm TELLLLLLLING !" It can also sound like (and I know someone - not here - with whom it IS) - that the poster doing the mini-modding wishes they were a mod and wants to show off in the hope of becoming one....

 

I remember the eyes bleed one. I posted that it gave me migraines. It's odd that one was OK (I assume) and one wasn't. The colours really were scary painful ! But I am guessing that the person who made the scheme may have complained - or a mate of theirs did. Where I was last called out for rudeness, I was actually feeling very sorry for the person I was said to have been rude to; I was trying to be sympathetic, I am almost certain she reported me herself because she simply didn't like what I said....

 

Rudeness is almost always in the eyes of the person reporting it. And the trouble is - if you FEEL slighted, you - kind of were in a way.

[CatCreature]

Unless your report is "suck my " or " you, mod_name" this is not a thing. If we feel we are being overwhelmed with reports that aren't reporting posts against mod rules, you may get a friendly PM asking if something is up, but that's it. :3

Curiosity makes me wonder how often you get reports like that.

 

Not to mention the opposite: how often do you get silly reports? I don't mean 'Good morning mods', I mean like stories and poems pointing out egg spam and stuff.

[Nectaris]

I think there is a fine line between not wanting to sugarcoat things and being outright rude about criticism. I do often see people who outright bash someone's artwork, and when confronted about it state that they don't want to sugarcoat it(to be clear, this doesn't happen much here). Personally, I do think that the "makes my eyes bleed" could have been worded better. Was it worth a warn? Probably not, but I don't think that it was great criticism either, regardless of medical conditions.

[Obscure_Trash]

Since rudeness seems to be the new topic, I'll just quote this:

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6896431

 

I would very much appreciate it if warns were handed out a bit less liberally. I recently made a sarcastic post and got warned for 'sniping at other users.' Note that my post did not attack the other person, call names, mock their belief systems or any other such drastic thing. I simply responded dryly to their accusations... and got saddled with a warn for it.

 

Here's the post:

Ah, yes, because our use of the word Christmas in a secular way and our tree decorating and our gingerbread baking and our red-gold-green dragons are clearly all about offending and excluding people. Except no.

 

Almost all of my warns lately have been for such small things, and it's starting to drive me nuts. I talked with the mod about it and they actually removed all my warns because TJ removed a warn from a post worse than any of mine. While I'm happy about that, I would've much rather never gotten them to begin with--and I really hope the mods try to be a bit less strict from now on. Save your warns for people who are clearly trying to be offensive, not sarcastic or grumbly people.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6897242

 

I don't believe that is a problem with the mod team; I believe it is a problem I have [the warns]. I see that. I'll stop it.

Pretty sure everything everyone is talking about was me, to which I've already admitted to, apologized, and promised to change. You guys seem like you're trying to convince of us what you're saying in regards to rudeness/saracasm/bluntness when I've already apologized and promised to cut it out. I swear that I'll cut back and cut it out rather than pushing things so hard. If you guys don't believe me, there's nothing I can do but wait it out and see in the future. =(

 

Thank you for noting this Sock, I made the comment because on other online forums, games(including runescape), abusing the warn button was used to denote multiple times a user pressed report or reported a player who was not breaking the rules and if they did this repeatedly. On one site (which last time I was there it had collapsed because owners changed) abusing the report button was on the same offence as 'mini-modding'.

 

Now that I know that I'll feel free if I'm in that situation again to go ahead and report the member.

 

No, thank you! Really, I'd rather get too many reports than not enough. <3 Reports are meant to point out to mods when rule-breaking is going on or when a situation might need watched. It's certainly not mini-modding to send a report.

 

Curiosity makes me wonder how often you get reports like that.

 

Not to mention the opposite: how often do you get silly reports? I don't mean 'Good morning mods', I mean like stories and poems pointing out egg spam and stuff.

 

I believe the few times we've warned for abuse of the report system is when a spammer figured out they could spam through reports without getting an approved topic first. We've never actually had anyone curse us out over report. =p Not too many witty stories or poems, either. None that I can remember off the top of my head. o.o

[Nine]

I agree that the oversensitivity about critique is nothing short of ridiculous at times, though I do have to say it's gotten ever so slightly better as compared to say... back in '10 or Christmas '11. Or infamous you-know-what-I'm-referrring-to thing. Still room for improvement, especially regarding people looking to "defend" artists and flame/denounce those who dare critique their sprites. But I'm not as hesitant to give actual critique, which is nice. The expectation that every critique should have an ample shovel-full of sugar spooned in is pretty unrealistic, but I suppose that's a personal preference of mine.

 

People get fired up in conversations, but that's not the same as jumping down someone's throat.

Truly agree with this as well, especially regarding the constant locking of topics and shutting down of dicussions because some snarking is going on. I've always said that taking care of the problem users with warns and letting the discussion itself continue is the best way to go, but the newly locked Shimmer topic is a step backwards imo. Especially since another was created right after, making the whole locking thing redundant except for cutting off discussions that had been going on.

 

And while we're on the topic of sharing warns-- it's like campfire stories!-- I might as well mention the time I made a DC-themed punny joke and was given a warn for it. Humor?! ME SMASH. When I tried to dispute it and have a discussion with the mod, they basically stopped responding and ended the conversation right there. That was back when disputing your warns wasn't exactly public knowledge though, I'd like to think things have gotten better since then? Maybe a blurb or link in the FAQ or Rules/Guidelines topic that describes the ways to go about disputing your warns? Is there already one and I'm just oblivious? I know it would've been helpful for me, at least, those many years ago.

[Ashes The Second]

THIS. I'm so relieved someone is saying this, because after all the negative reactions I've had to simply expressing my opinions, I didn't dare come out for fear of being punished again.

 

You see, this type of "strong" punishment is comparable psychologically to being spanked as a child. When that happened to me, I immediately lost respect for the authority figure that was abusing me without warning and became sullen and hurt.

Exactly the same thing happened when I was warned on DC. I used to have goodwill, I wanted to do things right and follow the rules. After being punished without previous warning ? Not so much. I stopped wanting to follow the rules. I felt slighted, and stopped caring. Now I am always defensive and feel I have to be wary all the time, because here, people don't want me to be comfortable, they make me feel unwelcome and they do not respect me.

 

I think giving a first verbal warn is paramount ! All the times I was warned on this forum, came without any previous verbal warning at all. I was not told that what I was doing was inappropriate, I was slapped on the wrist straight away. From an educative point of view, this is absurd and harmful (and yes, I read up on both human and animal behaviour, education, parenting, and also dog training. This is an accepted fact in all respectful methods of training and education.)

 

I will point out though, that this varies, some mods do give verbal warning (and I commend them for that ! Thank you for respecting users, you know who you are ). Also, some users seem not to be treated the same as others. I have been warned multiple times. When my sister did something of the same level, she was not warned, she was simply told to stop (please understand here that I am in no way jealous of my sister, we are extremely close and something like DC forum is not going to change that).

 

Edit :

 

 

 

Also, THIS. One of my warns was because a mod, not to name any names, thought my opinion was attacking his/her skills. I said that a certain colour scheme made my eyes bleed. (those words). (I am very sensitive to light, and actually, using this colour scheme for more than a few minutes makes me very very uncomfortable. Yes, I probably have issues, and not just with that, but I am too scared to go and see a medical specialist. As a result, I could not use the tool with this colour scheme until a new one was made, at which point I began using it more. This is to explain that when I said "it makes my eyes bleed", I didn't mean I merely didn't like it. It was to express in an admittedly exaggerated way that it truly caused me discomfort).

 

This mod made the decision purely based on his/her feelings which I apparently had hurt, not on the basis of any rule. His/her reason was "Criticism is fine but should be expressed in a way that is not disrespectful". Ok, well, it wasn't disrespectful, I was stating how I preferred this colour scheme because the other one made me uncomfortable. Maybe my wording wasn't great. In that case, the mod should have given me a verbal warning. I would have explained my situation with my eyes, apologized for coming across as more aggressive than I meant, been more careful in the future, and come away feeling like I had been respected.

 

As it is, I feel I have been treated unfairly. I merely stated an opinion in a slightly exaggerated way, which people do dozens of times on this forum every day, only it isn't about this mod's work and so they don't get warned. I feel the mod has abused his/her position of authority, to enforce his/her opinion with the weight of his/her position.

 

As you can probably tell, I am still hurt over this. I hope that for once we will be listened to. There are no disadvantages to giving verbal warns before actual warns. It makes users more cooperative as they feel they are respected and their feelings taken into account. They are given a chance to change their behaviour and not have the stigma of a warn if they do the right thing. This prevents people being hurt by a warn if they inadvertently made a mistake. Also for people with social skills issues, like Asperger's, autism or other issues, it gives them an opportunity to learn from their mistakes without having the negativity of a punishment associated with them (it is proven that people learn a lot better when they are not punished).

I agree with this 100%. It's just not right to shove your opinion on another person because they supposedly did something wrong that isn't stated in any rule.

 

 

I haven't posted on here for months because I know I'll get sassed by a mod about something-or-other, which is inherently wrong. I've never had a deep conversation with a mod on here, and never want to.

 

I've gotten in some pretty heated discussions before. Yes, I've been rude to people. But I tend to only resort to that after someone's said something rude to me. I don't report people I argue with because I see that as cowardly. But what really irks me is that I have no way of knowing the people matching my rudeness have been warned for arguing as well, so it makes me feel like I'm being persecuted for my opinions.

 

No one should ever be afraid to post what they think in a discussion. But I am. I am afraid because everyone seems to disagree with me on every point. I'm afraid of TJ. I'm afraid of the artists. I'm afraid of the mods. I seriously have a phobia of you guys. It terrifies me to type this right now. I hesitate when I see that a mod has posted in a thread I've said anything in, in fear that they're going to tell me that I'm wrong and should be ashamed of myself.

 

I have tried my hardest to "rehabilitate" myself. But I am, naturally, a tempermental person who is proud of her beliefs and willing to stand up for them. I can't change that, no matter how hard I try.

 

I always have to wonder, "If I get involved with this, if I try to make known what I believe in, am I going to get in trouble for it?"

 

This x1000000. I will never discuss something with a person/mod on here unless I know I won't be persecuted. I'm sorry I'm a human being and I have an opinion. And yes, I've been rude and have resorted to trying to explain, in great detail, why the other person is wrong.

 

Okay, in 2010 I was a jerk because I was, what, 12? 13? I'm 15 now, and extremely ready to get my hackles raised to TJ himself.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Ashes The Second

[Lythiaren]

No Sock, you're not the mod I've been talking about. My incident was quite recent, and you haven't gotten a PM from me in a long, long time. Though I appreciated the one (edit: the PM; the last warn you gave me was in April 2012) you sent me a little while ago, I got that issue taken care of right quick.

 

Or infamous you-know-what-I'm-referring-to thing.

Interestingly the frill debacle was due in part to my frustration with the "treat artists' egos like fragile eggs" mentality reaching critical mass, and I'd said as much at the time. If I'd gotten actual honest harsh crits during the process the sprite would've turned out better, and as a result I wouldn't hate my own sprite so much that I'd feel the need to use it as yet another lever to justify doing what I did. So the lesson there is twofold: don't treat people's creative works like garbage, and when people post things for criticism make sure you give honest crits so they can grow. Feelings may be hurt in the process but that's how you learn to take criticism, that's how you grow thicker skin, that's how you grow as an artist and as a person. And then when your work is released more people will like it. Alas, only the first part has ever taken hold and it's being erroneously and heavy-handedly applied to crits on works in progress, because people feel the need to overprotect artists' ~*precious*~ self esteem, which stunts personal growth.

 

But Iiiiii'm going way off on a tangent.

 

I don't see why hyperbole should be warned for. "Makes my eyes bleed" was used repeatedly regarding God Tier Egg during last year's Easter event and I certainly wasn't offended or even affected by people saying it in the news thread, in part because I'd been subjected to a good week or so of that in private. It wasn't rude, people weren't going "Lyth is a Homestuck grab your torch and pitchfork!!!!" or yelling at me.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Natayah]

Instead of slapping a poll option on threads, is there an option for "Rate this Thread Idea" with Plus or Minus (thumbs up, thumbs down) as a way of people showing their support? Give the OP the ability to clear this rating system anytime they update or modify the idea to gague response to the change?

 

This way people can still give a + or - without having a response that only says that with nothing else?

 

I don't know if this is an option with this forum code base or as an add-on or customization, just thought I'd throw it out there to get rid of the need for "Yes or No" posts without involving a poll on every thread.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Hm, looked at the original post of this thread and I think it ties back in to what some people are discussing, so even if its not something that can be easily "fixed" I thought I'd mention it. ^^;

 

Regarding how to treat artists--crit is an essential thing. I'm not really used to receiving it (certaintly not because my art is perfect, but rather because I don't get much of it on dA), but since I first started flopping around in dragon requests I've become much more expectant (sometimes almost even hopeful) for it, and I certainly hand out plenty myself.

 

That being said... I notice a tendency on the forums for people to ONLY point out the bad in artwork. Or, well, at least that's what the... important reviewers do? You'll get your random people dropping in saying how much they love it, but when it comes to other artists or spriters I've noticed a decided tendency to post a long string of what's wrong with it without ever mentioning what they like about it. It's rather frustrating, because it makes you feel like your art is irredeemably lame and doesn't appeal to any of them in the slightest. Now I'm certainly not saying you have to have a section devoted to gushing over the art in every post you make, but at the very LEAST try to find something nice to say in your first post, if nowhere else? When I come here to help sketch on my free time and see my stuff criticized by an army of impassive-faced other artists without a word of praise or encouragement from them in between, it makes me feel pretty dumb and wonder why I bothered trying to help.

Edited February 5, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

No Sock, you're not the mod I've been talking about. My incident was quite recent, and you haven't gotten a PM from me in a long, long time. Though I appreciated the one you sent me a little while ago, I got that issue taken care of right quick.

Socky - you did do one of my recent warns - and it was a fair cop. I've never ever been miffed by one of yours - and you've given me several

 

I was annoyed about one I got from another mod entirely, and - well, naming names is invidious, but I did PM and was satisfied with the response. In that as it turned out the person who reported me was also warned - and BIG time .

 

I do agree about the posting ONLY negative crit of artwork - never mind whether it is concrit, it would be nice to see "Hey GREAT paws" or something

[earthgirl]

I agree that the oversensitivity about critique is nothing short of ridiculous at times, though I do have to say it's gotten ever so slightly better as compared to say... back in '10 or Christmas '11. Or infamous you-know-what-I'm-referrring-to thing. Still room for improvement, especially regarding people looking to "defend" artists and flame/denounce those who dare critique their sprites. But I'm not as hesitant to give actual critique, which is nice. The expectation that every critique should have an ample shovel-full of sugar spooned in is pretty unrealistic, but I suppose that's a personal preference of mine.

 

 

I really wish you'd stop bringing the past dramas and the Christmas '11 thing up, with every opportunity. I thought I made clear the fact that it wasn't the 'critique' what got me down right there.

 

It was backstabbing from a certain person I actually used to trust. And yeah, said person doesn't usually pick released sprites apart and write walls of text about how much the spriter lacks(sugar-coating it, of course).

 

ETA: I was afraid to call them out back then and say all that I think, publicly, because in that state, it was hard for me to not 'attack' the person, get reported and receive a warn. With all that ruckus, having received a warning was the last thing I needed. So I had to be really really REALLY vague on the whole issue.

 

Then, the ED thing, which I personally find rather hilarious.

 

I admit, I did not react in the most elegant manner when I flipped in the release thread, but X's intention was not to help me improve, but stir . I could sense it, because I know a lot about them and how they'd react in a given situation. I've seen quite enough of what's been going on behind closed doors and not only.

End of story.

Edited February 5, 2013 by earthgirl

[Anna Selka]

Just wanted to say I wasn't warned about the easter eggs, I am absolutely fine with them, even the Homestuck one. As long as this kind of thing is small I can deal with it, it's when it's large that my eyes go weird.

 

Back on topic : Someone took away my warn ! Thanks. I feel a little better now. ^^'

 

I do think maybe there should be a bit more dialogue about what is acceptable or not.

I agree with what others have said, sarcasm as long as it is not a personal attack is used commonly in our society, I don't believe it should be punished.

 

I do think we should be able to give crits without fearing backlash, and it is quite hard to do so on this forum. I always try to say at least one positive thing in each of my posts when I give crits. Experience shows that it is still not enough, but at least I try not to be extremely negative, and will keep on trying in the future.

 

I still think Thuban's method of editing posts is great ! It warns other members, and it is an efficient way of reminding users to behave without punishing them out of nowhere. I do go back and read answers to my posts, and would notice if someone edited them (in fact that is how I found out about another of my warns. This one I deserved (but it was depressing that if I slip up just once I get punished immediately). Someone had edited out the profanity I had typed without even realizing (tired, bad day). Actually it usually takes me a while to notice the warns, more than to notice the edited post. Editing a post would be a reminder to be careful that is not a punishment (and doesn't carry all the negativity a punishment does), and all the mods can see it so they know the problem has been dealt with.

 

I have been on several forums in the last few years and this one is by far the most restricting and the least user friendly... There are many constraints, it is hard not to put a foot wrong. I think that this should definitely be something that is worked on. How to make the experience here a relaxed and enjoyable one for people, not something that is stressful and frightening.

 

I hope it becomes easier to communicate with mods too. Apart from one or two, I feel like I cannot go to them with my concerns, because they can be quick to judge and dismiss users. I know it is not easy to be a mod, but I feel that it's a responsibility they have taken on and users are not just names on a screen, they are people with rights too.

 

If other people hadn't come forwards before me on this thread for instance, I would never have dared say this, because I was pretty sure I would have got punished. That is a rather sad state of affairs.

 

I am not saying DC is the worst place or anything, otherwise I would never have come back here. I am just saying I like this game, I enjoy playing it, I have met some great people here, I just wish the forums could be even better, more fun (this is a game after all ) and less pressure. I get enough pressure at college. I come here to relax

 

Edit for typos

Edited February 5, 2013 by Anna Selka

[cfmtfm]

[Yes, I am late for the feedback party... Just been lurking around.]

 

Regarding how to treat artists--crit is an essential thing. I'm not really used to receiving it (certaintly not because my art is perfect, but rather because I don't get much of it on dA), but since I first started flopping around in dragon requests I've become much more expectant (sometimes almost even hopeful) for it, and I certainly hand out plenty myself.

 

That being said... I notice a tendency on the forums for people to ONLY point out the bad in artwork. Or, well, at least that's what the... important reviewers do? You'll get your random people dropping in saying how much they love it, but when it comes to other artists or spriters I've noticed a decided tendency to post a long string of what's wrong with it without ever mentioning what they like about it. It's rather frustrating, because it makes you feel like your art is irredeemably lame and doesn't appeal to any of them in the slightest. Now I'm certainly not saying you have to have a section devoted to gushing over the art in every post you make, but at the very LEAST try to find something nice to say in your first post, if nowhere else? When I come here to help sketch on my free time and see my stuff criticized by an army of impassive-faced other artists without a word of praise or encouragement from them in between, it makes me feel pretty dumb and wonder why I bothered trying to help.

 

I'm not an artist, but I certainly see some of this (not saying I see it a lot). I don't want to comment too much about this as I am not an artist, but I have seen it. This isn't really to do with how the forums are run or even to do with the forum staff, but it does make some (tiny) parts of the forum seem a little less friendly than others.

 

Sock, I really appreciate how you handle things and manage to interact with others, as well as being honest and posting in this thread in reply to some (if not all/most, which is reasonable) posts. I also appreciate how all of the forum staff handle things from spam posts to harsh criticism to new users. Yes, there are some things that need to be improved, but overall you guys do an amazing job at keeping this forum clean, pleasant and (in general) a friendly community.

/inb4 suck-up-to-me comments.

 

I do agree with the warn system - although I've never actually gotten a warn, from what people are saying it seems like it needs to be changed in one way or another. Perhaps instead of just getting a one-lined message for your warn, the mods could also send a polite PM explaining the warn in more detail - if this doesn't happen already.

 

Sometimes the mods do seem unapproachable - I don't know if this is just because of my self-consciousness though - because I don't want to bother them or get a warn. From lurking around in this thread and seeing how people have been warned unfairly (for some unknown reason), I do sometimes refrain from posting or even sending a PM to a mod because I don't want to get a warn or into trouble. I don't know how to fix this sort of thing or make them more 'approachable', but it is something I'd like to see changed so that more users are more comfortable with posting their opinions without worrying about unreasonable warns. I admit, I have had to remove some things from this post after reading it through several times as to avoid seeming like a harsh/critical person (to some users in general as well as some mods), and it's just one of those things that seem to eat at me. I am anxious about warns and do want something to be done about them, as well as make them 'more explained' (if that makes sense) in the comments/notes (of the warns) and in the board rules.

 

I haven't posted on here for months because I know I'll get sassed by a mod about something-or-other, which is inherently wrong. I've never had a deep conversation with a mod on here, and never want to.

I wouldn't be surprised if you that way, but the way you worded that is a little harsh. I don't believe that you 'know' you'll get 'sassed' - it's not like it happens everywhere and all the time. As stated in my above paragraph, I do (sort of) agree with you about the deep conversation thing. Overall, I've only had an actual conversation (forget about the 'deep' part) with a mod once and even then I was scared about replying - even though it was just a 'thank you', I was nervous (Seems like that's a feeling on my end though...)! You know who you are. I've only PM'd a mod twice (once for the reply) - excluding the few PMs I've sent to TJ. The other time I PM'd a mod, I got no reply. This has made me a little more careful about PMing them, although I do know that they probably get a lot more PMs. I was actually advised to PM them about this certain thing. I won't go into anymore detail in risk of naming those people. x_x

 

Instead of slapping a poll option on threads, is there an option for "Rate this Thread Idea" with Plus or Minus (thumbs up, thumbs down) as a way of people showing their support? Give the OP the ability to clear this rating system anytime they update or modify the idea to gague response to the change?

 

This way people can still give a + or - without having a response that only says that with nothing else?

 

I don't know if this is an option with this forum code base or as an add-on or customization, just thought I'd throw it out there to get rid of the need for "Yes or No" posts without involving a poll on every thread.

I don't think it's possible to add this because this forum software isn't really one where you can add/customize a lot of things (like xenforo, a more flexible and 'add more stuff to me!' software). Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

I'd like everyone to know that mods are actually real people too; they have feelings and are still human. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but it's just a friendly reminder for everyone and I think sometimes people forget this. I can't say this for everyone though.

Edited February 5, 2013 by cfmtfm

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think it's possible to add this because this forum software isn't really one where you can add/customize a lot of things (like xenforo, a more flexible and 'add more stuff to me!' software). Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong though.

I think something like "like" buttons would be altogether too facebooky...

 

And not necessarily that productive anyway. I was slagged off on facebook a while ago - by name and everything. I was actually hugely amused - the post was so amazingly rude that you had to laugh. It had the f word and everything ! What did NOT amuse, though, was that someone kindly sent me the page (I do not and will not go there, but they thought I should know what was being said.) and (as all you fartbookers know...) you can see who liked the post. MANY of my "friends" had clicked. I challenged one or two of the ones I really MINDED about their having done that - and they said they had clicked "like" without thinking, as, they said "you do on facebook". Which tells you all you need to know about the like button.

 

I'd like everyone to know that mods are actually real people too; they have feelings and are still human. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but it's just a friendly reminder for everyone and I think sometimes people forget this. I can't say this for everyone though.

I second this. I have a few times PMd a mod to THANK them for doing something about a post, or for posting "now stop it" - and in one case for closing a thread (yes, I was delighted ! it was a very nasty thread !) - not one I had reported, I hasten to add - and they have in every case been amazed to be thanked. Modding is NOT a nice job. And if we slag off the mods in threads, we can hardly be surprised if they get tetchy and over-react at times. Hand on heart - if you were a mod, people, can you say you would get it right all the time - or not throw a wobbly when people say you didn't ?

 

I admire Socky no end for that post saying she thinks the fault is in her. I have NO idea why she thinks so, but I assume she has a reason. That in itself says she is doing a good job, because she thinks about what she does. I bet most mods do (I would say all, but I have never interacted with some of them !)

 

 

 

[blah]

Just to add a different view to the warn business: I have said some very blunt things on here and I have never been warned for any of it. It is possible. And I have criticized both mods and TJ.

 

I think the ability to get a point across, strongly worded even, but without getting out of hand, hinges on two things: age and emotional involvement. Between artists and often young players, hm.

 

My one and only warn was from Sock though ... (you know I'm teasing, right? It was just a Spam warn and I deserved it).

 

edit: end and hand are different words...

Edited February 5, 2013 by blah

[Anna Selka]

I'd like everyone to know that mods are actually real people too; they have feelings and are still human. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but it's just a friendly reminder for everyone and I think sometimes people forget this. I can't say this for everyone though.

I think the issue is more that some mods forget users are real people, not just some sort of inferior being to be pushed and shoved until it fits into the box.

 

Mods are in a position of power ; it is easy for them to overstep the limits, with no accountability. Whereas we users, cannot even give our opinion without other users trying to shut us down with "poor mods, poor spriter", etc. They already hold the power to punish us and don't have any problems using it. They can defend themselves if needed without needing an army of minions. I have to say, this is one of the unsettling aspects of this forum, this deification of authority (not speaking about this thread in particular, this pops up whenever someone expresses dissatisfaction about any aspect of DC, and often also when people try to provide crits to a well-known spriter).

 

I haven't insulted any mods, I carefully refrain from accusing any one person in particular. I think the atmosphere of this forum could be improved, and I dare to say so (although I only do so because other people have given me the courage). I feel that implying I am forgetting that mods are people is unfounded. I know full well they are people, but that doesn't place them above questioning how they handle things.

 

Also, when I have thought a mod handled things well (and it has happened ), I have pointed it out. I have no problem recognizing and appreciating when a mod does their job particularly well. In fact, it is all the more admirable to me since the rules and general framework of the forum are not very conducive to respecting users.

[Hailwidis]

I bolded the important points:

I think that people feeling like they shouldn't be able to post their opinions is utter nonsense. We shouldn't be having that, and no amount of trying to explain it away is going to make anyone feel any better. Just because the rules are there and should be followed, if we're having people who are actually afraid to give an opinion....then there should probably be something changed about how things are handled.

 

Warns should be explained properly if asked, not a "because I said so" style answer or "because x rule says y". That's not helpful to anyone. If I were to be warned, I would expect to be able to get an explanation of why, what rule I broke, and what part of my post was breaking the rule.

 

I also don't believe that sarcasm and the like should be a warnable offense. If you are legitimately attacking a person and calling them out, then yes you should be warned, but if you are just responding to their opinion with your own opinion and disagreeing with them...as long as you aren't attacking their opinion (ie: saying "that opinion is stupid and wrong") then there's no issue. I think the problem there is a lack of consensus...

 

and if someone starts something with you and you get warned for responding, make sure the mods KNOW that that person was antagonizing you or whatever. If you feel like someone is getting away with things they shouldn't be, report them.

 

I'm guilty myself of snapping back at people, but I knew the consequences of my actions. If I retaliate against someone, I don't expect to get off scot-free. I enter into that kind of situation knowing full well that I may get warned, and you know what? Sometimes it happens. We're all human, we make mistakes, if the staff here didn't try to uphold some amount of decency then it would be utter chaos.

The points you raise, Shikaru, tie in with one of my biggest critiques of this forum. As it is now, it's very much like a dictatorship, with high censorship going on and a bunch of preposterous rules (not being allowed to voice your approval of a suggestion? I can't believe my ears. Isn't that the whole point of a suggestion? I'll get back to this.)

 

To sum up:

People being scared to post or voice their opinion because of repression?

Not ok.

 

Topics being closed down (as seen with the raffle debate and the shimmer topic...) because higher authorities don't like the way they're going?

Not ok.

 

People getting warns because of moderators' ego issues or because their opinion differs from that of the mod? (disclaimer: there are some great mods out there and this does not apply to all, but to some)

Not ok.

 

Certain members getting different treatment from mods than other members? Yes, it happens, I've seen it more than once: some mods protecting friends or punishing the members they disagree with more harshly.

Not ok.

 

As soon as one gets involved in this forum, in trying to suggest or improve or even just discuss the system, warns start falling like rain. It's like we're being told to stop having an opinion and to just go play like little children. "Hey kids, you're supposed to be seen but not heard!". The tone and way in which the warns are given is also unacceptable. There is very little respect for members here. I have friends who have received warns with just a rule quoted as an explanation. They have no idea how or when they broke the rule but hey! wow! a warn. I think at the very least warns should be properly explained, and even more so if the member in question asks about said warn.

 

As for this:

This seems to be the biggest disconnect with the warn system. Because if that's the only warn you got, then all it is is a "quick reminder."

A post, an edit or a PM is a quick reminder. A warn is of an entirely different dimension. A warn is serious, and should be used seriously. This is my second criticism. Warns are being treated and handed out like they're nothing. If you want them to really work, they should be handed out like they actually do mean something. i.e. for serious stuff.

 

And I get very irritated when mods use the excuse that warns are actually working and that that's why we are discussing and disagreeing with them. RoaarRRGGH way to twist the conclusion to your advantage! And btw, absolutely not true!

 

This subject comes up time and time again, and that's actually a good thing. It means people don't like getting warned. That's supposed to happen. You're not meant to enjoy receiving a warn. It shouldn't be a pleasant experience. However, all of the people I see complaining have only had at most one or two warns. Everyone makes mistakes, if you slip up at most once every four weeks, then why are you even worrying?

 

Why am I worrying? Because no freedom of expression. Because unfair treatment of members. Because bad use of authority.

And why do we not like getting warned? Because we're being warned for ridiculous reasons. Not because we secretly know we deserve it or whatever weird excuse that's supposed to be. I refuse to be warned for sarcasm. And I refuse to be warned because I have an opinion. That's why there is a discussion. I would be perfectly fine with a warn if I had deserved it. Insulted someone. Broken a real rule. But we're being warned for nonsensical reasons! so yes, that's why the topic comes up time and time again.

 

Also, you say that your warns are fulfilling their purpose and making us think about our actions. But in truth they are having the opposite effect. How many times have I heard in the last few pages that members have stopped being polite and careful in a debate because they know they'll be getting a warn for their opinion anyway so they might as well fight for it and express it fully? You're making people abandon their reserve and politeness and be more extreme because of the way you use warns. Just face it. Use that tool more wisely and less abundantly, and it'll regain it's meaning.

 

- Now I'm really going to be shot down, so let me fetch my body armour -

 

As for suggestions, and I'll end with this, they need both positive and negative feedback. That's the whole concept of working on a suggestion and seeing if it's valid or not. You need to know if you have member support. And no, it's not ridiculously difficult to skim through "I support this" posts and get to the important discussion. Anyone who knows how to read can do this. Ok, it may take 5 minutes to get through new answers but that's what it takes anyway if you have proper crit. I often read through a whole topic just to have a good grasp on what's being said. It's not impossible. I think these support messages should not be treated like spam. They're easily identified, you just skip over them but at least you know that some people agree with the concept. Because if you're only collecting negative input and never seeing positive input, it can seems like members are rejecting the concept. While really it's just because of a strange rule.

So at the very least, we need to allow a poll or yay/nay system.

 

- V

[cfmtfm]

Anna Selka, I see what you mean, and I agree with that as well. It is quite unsettling but I'm sure that users forgetting about mods is more frequent than mods forgetting about users. There's always an exception to everything, so I can't speak for every occasion/circumstance, but I do think that it's the users that need to be more wary. Moderators do exactly that - moderate. They are here to make the forum a better/friendlier/well-behaved place. Okay, that doesn't always happen, but they do try and that's what they're there for. I haven't seen a mod abusing their power (... yet), but if it did happen, I'm sure TJ would do something about it.

 

In the worst circumstances where a mod is unfairly going past the boundaries without being noticed (either by TJ or another mod), this would change my attitude towards them. I'm yet to see this happen though. Of course, this is the internet...

 

I think the atmosphere of this forum could be improved, and I dare to say so (although I only do so because other people have given me the courage). I feel that implying I am forgetting that mods are people is unfounded. I know full well they are people, but that doesn't place them above questioning how they handle things.

I agree with you on the atmosphere being improved in general. I'm not implying that you (in particular) are forgetting about mods being people - I specifically said that I wasn't aiming this at anyone. I also wasn't talking about how they handle things - I was talking about how some users act towards the mods.

 

Sorry if half this post is not coherent, and I do not want to get into any debates/long discussions at the moment... Not saying that we're hinting towards it, just saying that I'm tired. x_x

 

Edit: Just seen Hailwidis' post. I completely agree with you on all of the things you have said, to put it bluntly.

Edited February 5, 2013 by cfmtfm

[Lythiaren]

I think the issue is more that some mods forget users are real people, not just some sort of inferior being to be pushed and shoved until it fits into the box.

^ That's the issue I have right there. For all that people keep saying "mods are people too", well... they didn't have to apply for the job, they didn't have to take the job. If you're not prepared for the backlash then don't get too trigger-happy, it's part of the responsibilities you volunteered to take on. Never take an action if you're not prepared to explain yourself. Socky's good at that, I don't recall disputing any warn from her.

 

There's a reason I've never applied to mod the DC forums, and the extremely toxic environment is a huge factor.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Banuk]

Perhaps what we need is simply more mods across the board?

 

If managing incredibly active and charged sections of the forum like the suggestions section is falling on the shoulders of two or three people and it's stressful enough for them that they're more willing to just slap warns on everyone instead of actually interacting with users, maybe we need more people to help share that burden. More mods, more people for the userbase to turn to, the more time each individual discussion or dissension can be given.

 

It wouldn't hurt to get some varying viewpoints in there as well! Take on some people who have shown to consistently argue FOR change instead of AGAINST it. Take on some who are always there with alternative suggestions to help soothe an inflamed situation or help make something more appealing for both sides. In short, get some people who are consistently INVOLVED in discussions and who would know perhaps a little better how the people in such discussions yearn to be treated by the authority figures around here.

 

No offense meant to any mods, but, honestly...I have a hard time telling you apart sometimes, simply because, in most discussions I see, you all seem to be of the same opinion when it comes to certain subjects. That makes it very difficult, I imagine, for the people to argue against your views, to contact you, because they know where you stand and that their opinion isn't going to be taken seriously.

[Walker]

Perhaps what we need is simply more mods across the board?

 

If managing incredibly active and charged sections of the forum like the suggestions section is falling on the shoulders of two or three people and it's stressful enough for them that they're more willing to just slap warns on everyone instead of actually interacting with users, maybe we need more people to help share that burden. More mods, more people for the userbase to turn to, the more time each individual discussion or dissension can be given.

 

It wouldn't hurt to get some varying viewpoints in there as well! Take on some people who have shown to consistently argue FOR change instead of AGAINST it. Take on some who are always there with alternative suggestions to help soothe an inflamed situation or help make something more appealing for both sides. In short, get some people who are consistently INVOLVED in discussions and who would know perhaps a little better how the people in such discussions yearn to be treated by the authority figures around here.

 

No offense meant to any mods, but, honestly...I have a hard time telling you apart sometimes, simply because, in most discussions I see, you all seem to be of the same opinion when it comes to certain subjects. That makes it very difficult, I imagine, for the people to argue against your views, to contact you, because they know where you stand and that their opinion isn't going to be taken seriously.

... We just had mod applications? Just pointing that out.

[Banuk]

... We just had mod applications? Just pointing that out.

I know, but I'm wondering if it's going to be enough for things to get the attention they need.

 

I don't know exactly how many Help mods there are (I read in the application post that they also mod the suggestions forum, right?), but if the number we have isn't enough that users feel comfortable that they're being listened to and taken seriously by mods, is one more really going to help? That's my concern.