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[arlymaye]

Games section? Not too sure about that. I just suddenly got a vision of *Whack A Mod*. Not pleasant.

 

But yes, the thread will be filled with lots of chats. _Z_ used to announce her coming into the thread with a pleasant *Good Morning* and all hell broke loose. So, no upping post count would be great.

[TJ09]

Yeah, I've brought up the subject for the mods to discuss. Games is looking unlikely.

 

I won't say much more because the details are likely to change with the discussion.

[Lythiaren]

I remember those Mod Intro threads too, but they were from before I became a mod.  I am not sure what happened to them.  I honestly thought they were a great idea, but I guess there was a good reason they were closed.  If there was a reason, I don't know it.  (I wouldn't mind seeing those come back again...)

 

----

 

Lyth, I don't think we're seeing eye to eye here.

 

At the initial stages, warns are just that - warnings.  A sort of "hey you, don't do that!" response to a post that is an infraction of the rules.  Yes, it's a bit of a shock I'd reckon.  It's meant to get your attention and hopefully discourage you from doing the same thing again.  With regards to other forums I've been on, DC's system is fairly relaxed - many others start right away with consequences that affect your posting abilities.

 

Despite what may be believed about us - I do not like giving warns and I doubt any of us really do.  But I will if the situation requires it, because it's part of what I was tasked to do.  It's not a fun part of being a mod but sometimes it's necessary to keep things running smoothly.

 

I also guarantee that getting a warn is not the worst thing that can happen to someone if the problem is serious enough.  Reporting is not fruitless and brings our attention to things that might have been otherwise missed.

 

I can see the effects of your frustration though - I might get five reports on one egg spam topic in the space of 3 minutes, but may only get one on a post that is full of vitriol.  Clearly the post that is attacking others is a bigger issue.

I'm not disputing that a warn is supposed to be a warning. And initially it is; most of us probably remember our first warn. And then we walk on eggshells for a while and then suddenly another warn comes up out of the blue. Sometimes it comes with a concise explanation leading to a repetition of the cycle, but eventually you get one when a mod is cranky. Inquiring about it yields either a canned response or a vague answer, so we walk away from the inquiry confused. And then another warn appears, and another, and another. We get worn down and bit by bit, we lose the ability to give a single crap about when the next one will be and that's when warns stop mattering to us. And all the while we see people who are doing much worse than us, consistently, and wondering if they get warns too and if they've also stopped caring about them. And then warns mean nothing.

 

I'm also not disputing that reporting isn't quite fruitless. I report duplicates when I see them in the Video Games section and I often see the threads closed within minutes. But at times it really feels like it. When a thread suddenly bursts into flames in Suggestions? Not a peep from a mod for hours, sometimes days. Sometimes I see mods reading and there's neither a "hey knock it off" nor a thread closure. Indeed one of my threads once got so bad over the course of a month or so that it had to be trashed when a mod finally got to it. I was PMed to inform me that it had been trashed in an attempt to get people to calm down and stop attacking me, only to find that threads were irrecoverable even by mods once trashed.

 

See what I'm getting at? :|

 

-----

And also an edit for gistofeverything since I've finally fomulated a response:

 

I fail to see how voicing one's agreement with an idea or support of a suggestion does not contribute to a topic. Support carries just as much weight as dissent. The "spam" definition has been stretched and warped considerably, and since the discouragement of +1 posts is stated only in a sticky and not the board rules, they remain an odd quasi-gray area that has been routinely punished. With disagreement a lot of people feel the need to explain themselves, but as noted elsewhere in this very thread, sometimes the original post is just so thorough and well-phrased that some supporters feel nothing more needs to be said. We can't expect people to deliberately leave out pieces of their posts just to allow their supporters to say something. That would be unreasonable. If you don't consider that overzealous action against users or a waste of resources, well... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. But people have voiced their complaints here, and TJ and the mod team are now working to change that rule.

 

There's merit in the complaints being voiced here; if there wasn't, TJ and mods wouldn't be reading them. Brushing us off like we're all unrepentant sinners is not only misguided, but insulting as well.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Lythiaren

[StormWizard212]

Yeah, I've brought up the subject for the mods to discuss. Games is looking unlikely.

 

I won't say much more because the details are likely to change with the discussion.

Glad to hear it's being discussed. I think it's an excellent idea to bring it back. I wasn't around to see it the last time, but from what people are saying, it sounds like something that would really help breach the gap between member and mod and help them to get to know each other better. The Introduce Yourself forum could be a good place. Shouldn't have to be solely for newbies.

[Anna Selka]

Keeping this almost purely as a response to Khallayne's first post, I'd like to get to know our moderators a little better. I don't mean we should be best buddies, or have special treatment because "omg we're friendly friends!" In some sites, there have been "[mod]'s intro" or "Ask [mod] questions" threads. It'd be easier for me to see things from a moderator's point of view if I was comfortable with them or knew them as a person first. I spend a lot of time in the IRC because the forum mods make me nervous. (I don't think my newbie view of "_Z_'s a bot!" ever really wore off. ) I'm not saying all mods should describe everything about themselves or goof off, just, maybe a thread somewhere with things they're comfortable telling users? If it's an option?

I agree with every word of this, it's like you read my mind I think it would help very much to see mods as people and not as faceless representations of authority. Edit : I also think the introduce yourself forum would be a great idea ! It would draw members to go and check it out, and maybe give newbies a little more responses too ! All around win.

 

And I don't get the feeling we're being heard about :

 

- For small offenses like being sarcastic without targetting anyone in particular, saying "+1", spamming (for the first time) I really think we should get a verbal warn and not a real warn directly.

 

- Please make the rules more human with respect to spam and sarcasm. It would be nice if members didn't have to worry every time they post.

 

- Please, unless users are behaving completely inappropriately, try to treat them kindly, and don't take your frustration out on them.

 

It would be nice to know that these things are at least being discussed by the mod team, and that you have heard what we have to say, not just about a few details, but the big picture too. I get the feeling that you are ok with changing a few details, but not addressing the main problems. Please tell me I am wrong

 

I'm not disputing that a warn is supposed to be a warning. And initially it is; most of us probably remember our first warn. And then we walk on eggshells for a while and then suddenly another warn comes up out of the blue. Sometimes it comes with a concise explanation leading to a repetition of the cycle, but eventually you get one when a mod is cranky. Inquiring about it yields either a canned response or a vague answer, so we walk away from the inquiry confused. And then another warn appears, and another, and another. We get worn down and bit by bit, we lose the ability to give a single crap about when the next one will be and that's when warns stop mattering to us. And all the while we see people who are doing much worse than us, consistently, and wondering if they get warns too and if they've also stopped caring about them. And then warns mean nothing.

 

This is true and I still think it shows the warn system is being overused. I disagree that warns are a light "hey don't do that" sort of thing. They are a punishment. They make you feel really bad, and every mod ever to come after that can see them and think "oh, this one is an annoying troublemaker". It will colour their interaction with us. Please, try to see what warns are from a member's point of view. After all, that is what counts, since it is members that receive warns and draw conclusions from them, not mods. Yes I think warns are pretty serious and as such should be kept for serious situations.

 

As for warns being an occasion to repent... I don't find that to be very healthy outlook. It means no matter what, it is always the weakest person's fault (the member). The mod can never be wrong, never make a mistake, they are some sort of superhuman being, the embodiment of justice. I don't think that is a very democratic way of seeing things... Also, living with such guilt is not healthy at all I have had issues with that in the past and I am not at all ready to go down that lane again.

 

Lastly, for people saying if you disagree with one mod you can go to another... I am not so sure about that. I wouldn't do that, because I feel mods don't readily admit when they are wrong, and I would be pretty sure that they would agree with the other mod and not with the user, since they are used to seeing thing from a mod's point of view.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Anna Selka

[FortyTwo]

In regards to where to put the threads for each mod - Would it be possible to create a new forum section or subsection dedicated to moderator threads?

 

IMO, personal mod threads are a great idea. I remember we used to have them, and it was just a good idea to talk to them and get to know them more so you don't feel that they're out there to get you - and they're human.

Edited February 6, 2013 by FortyTwo

[Fuzzbucket]

But I see that all of the time -- I ask for elaborations to a warn, and that's basically the gist of what they tell me. What am I supposed to think? I can only assume all of the other mods would agree because they've acted by saying this on their own, and if they said it without consulting another mod, then it's 'because they are right and you are wrong, so shut up, I will not take away the warn, it was a serious thing, deal with it, jeez.'

 

I also don't feel a very connected mod atmosphere. There has to be some middle ground between the mods somewhere, and I'd like to understand where it is so I can use something to call them out when they're wrong, and they'll know. Because a lot of mods will not back off from a user who feels attacked simply because they're in the higher position. I've had users tell me I was a great mod, and then users who would question every move I made. But I always provided a clear reasoning for myself, like telling them they have every right to complain, but when it then becomes an attack [because the user cannot defend themselves and try to argue it further or something, perhaps regarding what another mod has done], heading into insult territory, I simply outline what they have said so far, and give them x reason for why it's not okay, point them in the right direction, and hope they listen. if not, I keep track of the user --stickypad, ect.

What are you "supposed to think" ? That you broke a rule. If you ask why you were warned and they say this is the rule you broke, and you say but why did I get a warn ? - what are THEY supposed to say ?

 

I have never felt that my warns meant the mod thought they were BETTER than me. And believe me, I've had warns.

 

And also - like KageSora - there are a few people here that I simply do not respond to, as they offend me so much I know that whatever I say will cop me a warn. (I have asked for an ignore this member's posts function, which IS available in invision - but it never happened...)

 

That is NOT so hard to do. I don't bother fighting people like that IRL, either ! Such pointless arguments are bad for one's health.

 

Love the idea of a get to know the mods section.

Edited February 6, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[brairtrainer]

In regards to where to put the threads for each mod - Would it be possible to create a new forum section or subsection dedicated to moderator threads?

 

IMO, personal mod threads are a great idea. I remember we used to have them, and it was just a good idea to talk to them and get to know them more so you don't feel that they're out there to get you - and they're human.

Forty I absolutley love this idea, if nothing else this might help the atmosphere even if other things were kept the same.

[Snowytoshi]

There was a mod interview thread at one time, they had interviewed me for it. I cant remember where it was, but i think it was like a newsletter or something along those lines.

 

*coughcough*

 

For those who are interested, the article is near the bottom of the page

 

I really like the idea of having 'Meet the Mod' threads, it would be a way to discuss things with eople in a more informal manner, instead of just debatng in threads or discussing warns

[earthgirl]

Am I the only one who freaks out each time they get up in the morning and find a PM pop-up on the forums, fearing it's from some mod who slapped me with a warn?

 

Ok. I like the idea of having an 'ask the mod' sort of forum. Maybe one chat thread where users can ask different questions and not only see the mods posting links to topics where certain discussions should go. Because, there are some mods that I never seen participating in discussions and whatever. They'd just pop-in to warn the topic or correct the users.

[Khallayne]

And I don't get the feeling we're being heard about :

 

- For small offenses like being sarcastic without targetting anyone in particular, saying "+1", spamming (for the first time) I really think we should get a verbal warn and not a real warn directly.

 

- Please make the rules more human with respect to spam and sarcasm. It would be nice if members didn't have to worry every time they post.

 

- Please, unless users are behaving completely inappropriately, try to treat them kindly, and don't take your frustration out on them.

 

It would be nice to know that these things are at least being discussed by the mod team, and that you have heard what we have to say, not just about a few details, but the big picture too. I get the feeling that you are ok with changing a few details, but not addressing the main problems. Please tell me I am wrong :)are used to seeing thing from a mod's point of view.

TJ already posted a few pages back that we're discussing new spam rules. Don't think that you're not being heard. That's not the case. You have multiple moderators reading the thread. We're talking about it. And I know this is probably one of those answers that you want a more direct: "What's the direction where this is heading." But it's still discussion. The only reason why I'm not giving any direction is because that things are being poked and prodded at.

[cfmtfm]

I was offline for quite a while and obviously missed a few pages. I've read all the posts, agreed with some, thought more deeply about others, etc. But chances are my post will be irrelevant after all the discussion going on earlier. I'll sit back for the moment.

 

I do like the idea of the mod threads but I'm sitting on the fence as to where they should be - I trust the staff to discuss it all and decide themselves. Glad to see this thread lightening up a little and looking forward to seeing the fun mod threads!

Edited February 6, 2013 by cfmtfm

[KageSora]

Kage, try reporting only the worst things they do. That way you can't be seen as targeting them, but you still can say "I don't like what they did here".

I would, but I'm a horrible judge of that kind of thing, so I never really can tell HOW bad it is--or if I'm the only one offended or if it's REALLY offensive.

[Anna Selka]

TJ already posted a few pages back that we're discussing new spam rules. Don't think that you're not being heard. That's not the case. You have multiple moderators reading the thread. We're talking about it. And I know this is probably one of those answers that you want a more direct: "What's the direction where this is heading." But it's still discussion. The only reason why I'm not giving any direction is because that things are being poked and prodded at.

No, I'm ok just knowing it's being discussed, that's way better than nothing at all ! I understand that no decision can be taken without weighing pros and cons and thinking about it.

 

It's just that since there hadn't been a response here, it was hard to tell. I'm glad you posted

[PointOfOrigin]

Introduce yourself would be a great place for "meet the mods". Maybe just have them as regular threads, and a sticky with links to all mod threads?

[Dimar]

Introduce yourself would be a great place for "meet the mods". Maybe just have them as regular threads, and a sticky with links to all mod threads?

I think that sounds much better than putting them in Games, or sticky-ing each thread individually.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Dimar

[Lyricmaniac]

In regards to where to put the threads for each mod - Would it be possible to create a new forum section or subsection dedicated to moderator threads?

 

IMO, personal mod threads are a great idea. I remember we used to have them, and it was just a good idea to talk to them and get to know them more so you don't feel that they're out there to get you - and they're human.

I really like this suggestion. It'd have its own place without clogging up other sections of the forum. It'd serve a purpose too. So yeah, I agree with this.

[TheGrox]

I'd prefer a subsection, maybe in the 'Introduce Yourself' section, where all the threads for each mod could be found, I would definitely like to see something like this added.

[Rally Vincent]

Since Lythiaren brought up the subject of her posts getting reported above average, I'd like to get a foot in. In my opinion, not few users are being oversensitive. Not everything someone writes is a personal attack or rude, even if worded strongly or in a sarcastic manner. I sometimes argued with Lythiarenin a thread. Lythiaren may not use a softline approach, but I never felt insulted by what Lythiaren said or considered it rude, no matter how wrong I think she was.

 

If this wasn't the DC Forum, I'd say something like "some people just need to grow a pair" and that the Forum standard on what is inapproriate should not be how many reports a post gets. That is mob rule, not Mod rule.

[purplehaze]

There was a mod interview thread at one time, they had interviewed me for it. I cant remember where it was, but i think it was like a newsletter or something along those lines.

 

And as for those that were upset about my comment earlier regarding chat: as i said before I just wanted to be somewhere where i could rapidly collect information for a small group of people, quickly. Im sure plenty of people rant about forum stuff in other means of chat, be it skype, text, over the phone or whatever. Honestly, I had no reason to believe i would get people angry at me. I'm sorry that my wanting to discuss that somewhere im more comfortable was offensive.

*Hugs Thu and offers cookies!*

 

My post was not meant in any way to seem angry or offended. Alarmed might be a better word. I have an aversion to chat that is, I am sure, even worse than your discomfort with the forums. I just did not want to think of this discussion moving to chat, but I see that is not your intention.

 

I like to follow threads like this one even though I don't always make a comment of my own. I find following any sort of conversation on chat to be nearly impossible.

 

And like Fuzz, I find it a very unfriendly place. If an outsider comes in and makes a post it is, it seems, most likely to be ignored while the "in crowd" goes on with their oh so important discussion about fish or rats or snakes or kitties or spiders or pizza or whatever. It feels to me like a very exclusive club.

 

I am glad to see this discussion taking a more positive turn and to see TJ and the mods responding to some of the concerns that were raised. I know that the mods do not have an easy job and all of you have your own lives outside of DC as well, which also demand your time.

[Alpha Gryph]

I would, but I'm a horrible judge of that kind of thing, so I never really can tell HOW bad it is--or if I'm the only one offended or if it's REALLY offensive.

I've dealt with people abusing the report button because they've had grudges against other members. And I can honestly say, Kage, that you don't come off as someone who would do that in the first place. As long as a person gives a decent explanation as to why a comment looks out of line to them, I don't see them getting told off for it. Feeling like you have to shut up and not report something you think is wrong isn't good.

 

If it's many comments from one person that seem out of line to you, maybe just PM a mod to say "so and so has been posting things that don't seem right to me, do you agree?" From a mod standpoint, I don't see that as being a bad thing to do, but maybe that's just me. And it would allow you to avoid reporting a bunch of one person's posts and seem like you're picking on them.

[KageSora]

I've dealt with people abusing the report button because they've had grudges against other members. And I can honestly say, Kage, that you don't come off as someone who would do that in the first place. As long as a person gives a decent explanation as to why a comment looks out of line to them, I don't see them getting told off for it. Feeling like you have to shut up and not report something you think is wrong isn't good.

 

If it's many comments from one person that seem out of line to you, maybe just PM a mod to say "so and so has been posting things that don't seem right to me, do you agree?" From a mod standpoint, I don't see that as being a bad thing to do, but maybe that's just me. And it would allow you to avoid reporting a bunch of one person's posts and seem like you're picking on them.

I'd like to avoid becoming that sort of person, hence my hesitation since I'm not always sure what's my personal bias over rather rude things they've said in the past and what's honestly them being out of line.

 

But that's a good idea, I'll keep that in mind for the future, that'd really help me figure out if it's just me or if they ARE coming off as rude. :3

[Thuban]

I would, but I'm a horrible judge of that kind of thing, so I never really can tell HOW bad it is--or if I'm the only one offended or if it's REALLY offensive.

If i see a lot of posts by the same user that bother me, i will report the one that bothered me, and mention the locations of the other comments, and mention why it bothers me. Anyone can click the users name to see the comments they have made recently, and i'd rather get a lot of information into one report, than do a whole bunch and flood the mods mailbox.

 

It doesnt hurt to make a report. If its not a problem, or was already reported, nothing comes of it. But if something is bothering you, i find the forum mods are good about contacting people for more information, and giving advice.

[KageSora]

If i see a lot of posts by the same user that bother me, i will report the one that bothered me, and mention the locations of the other comments, and mention why it bothers me. Anyone can click the users name to see the comments they have made recently, and i'd rather get a lot of information into one report, than do a whole bunch and flood the mods mailbox.

 

It doesnt hurt to make a report. If its not a problem, or was already reported, nothing comes of it. But if something is bothering you, i find the forum mods are good about contacting people for more information, and giving advice.

That's a good idea, too. :3 I'll keep that in mind, too! Thanks!

 

And also - like KageSora - there are a few people here that I simply do not respond to, as they offend me so much I know that whatever I say will cop me a warn. (I have asked for an ignore this member's posts function, which IS available in invision - but it never happened...)

That's what I've been doing, since I know I'll just end up getting busted for sarcasm.

[Ashes The Second]

*Hugs Thu and offers cookies!*

 

My post was not meant in any way to seem angry or offended. Alarmed might be a better word. I have an aversion to chat that is, I am sure, even worse than your discomfort with the forums. I just did not want to think of this discussion moving to chat, but I see that is not your intention.

 

I like to follow threads like this one even though I don't always make a comment of my own. I find following any sort of conversation on chat to be nearly impossible.

 

And like Fuzz, I find it a very unfriendly place. If an outsider comes in and makes a post it is, it seems, most likely to be ignored while the "in crowd" goes on with their oh so important discussion about fish or rats or snakes or kitties or spiders or pizza or whatever. It feels to me like a very exclusive club.

 

I am glad to see this discussion taking a more positive turn and to see TJ and the mods responding to some of the concerns that were raised. I know that the mods do not have an easy job and all of you have your own lives outside of DC as well, which also demand your time.

I agree, but I frequent it anyway because, hey, why not?

 

The 'in-crowd' really does exist on the chat, and it's just made up of members who have been there, not who anyone is. It's incredibly hard to figure out, and most of the discussions are incredibly dull.