We want Forum Feedback!

[cfmtfm]

I agree entirely with this! Mods edit out things AND give a warn most of the time, why not just edit it with a little note, or if thats too hard send a PM with the post linked so we don't miss it.

I do prefer they send a PM too. Perhaps instead of saying what they did wrong in public, they could point out that they have done something wrong (in the post) as well as PM them what they did wrong.

 

Edit: *blames iPod for being slow* fuzz, just suggested PMing as well. :3

Edited February 5, 2013 by cfmtfm

[earthgirl]

Problem with warns I see, from personal views, I become extremely paranoid each time i get one for a small thing. I once got a warn for posting a link to a site which contained an image with a screenshot that contained a word that had been censored on this forum. It was really silly.

Another time I got up in the morning, just to find out that i had a warn when I KNEW I did nothing and was like even more surprised by the reason: it was a silly off-topic post I made A MONTH before getting the actual warn. The only reasoning i got back is that 'it got reported'. :/ Moot point. That was a freakin' month ago!

So, apparently I can report posts from months ago and that user will still be punished? What's the time limit, really? o.o

Will I get a warn for this very post 2 months later, because one user will get offended by it and report it?

 

Also, Yeah, there WERE a couple of mods who were constantly tormenting me and had a problem with me. I know I also applied for mod once, when I was in bad terms with said peeps, and of course, I did not get the job. Yet, a couple of people who were friends with them, got the jobs. So no, I don't believe it's a matter of opinions and agreements on certain subjects. It's how they see YOU as an user. If you're viewed as a general trouble maker, then you're screwed.

I've been treated unfairly before by said mods. Badly, even.

Been banned on IRC for 5 months because I dared 'spoiling' by sharing info on the Glory drakes. >.>

One of the newer mods, whom I was getting along before, certainly stopped being friends with me a while after they got the job and used the spoiler argument each time they were upset with me. Where did they get that? I'm quite sure certain things about me had been said behind my back and went on where I couldn't see them.

And I'm sure it had pretty much spreaded to the crayon box thing, because all the other spriters hated me at the time.

 

Yes, there was a period when I felt like everyone hated me, because of 2 people who tried their best to convince everyone that I'm a bug that needs to be crushed.

This used to happen 3 years ago. -.-

Now it's fine.

 

/long personal rant is long.

 

Even if things seem to be perfectly fine at this moment, old wounds still haven't healed.

 

I wanted to quit the forums for good a couple of times, just because I felt I couldn't say anything, or have a debate and that I've been treated unfairly.(again)

 

However, I'm cool with receiving a warn when I know i crossed the line, insulted an user and really meant to offend them or deliberately broke the rules.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2013 by earthgirl

[pinkieseb]

The trouble with warnings in posts is - well, to be blunt, I know I don't go back and read mine again - who does? So in the end I'd do it again and again and sooner or later I'd cop a warn anyway for not having heard in the first place, if you see what I mean.

I think I NINJA'D you,

 

 

 

If mods sent a simple PM and didnt even bother editing the post, I think things would work out better.

[cfmtfm]

A simple PM can do the trick, but I think warns are handed out more frequently than PMs and polite verbal warns.

 

Obviously there's more severe things that have to be warned for, but an explanation is nice too.

[Anna Selka]

The trouble with warnings in posts is - well, to be blunt, I know I don't go back and read mine again - who does? So in the end I'd do it again and again and sooner or later I'd cop a warn anyway for not having heard in the first place, if you see what I mean.

I do (go back and read what people have answered, and would see an edit in my post), but I see your point, so ok. Maybe the mods should edit the message so that other mods can tell it has been taken care of, and send a PM.

 

As far as my understanding of the warn system goes, I don't really see how that would be more effort than a standard warn. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think it would be worth it, to create two levels of warns and give users a second chance

 

Edit to clarify

Edited February 5, 2013 by Anna Selka

[arlymaye]

A few pages back TJ replied that he is working with the mods to better define what spam is and generally, how to better enforce the warn system. I know it's just been a day but has any progress been made? If any of the mod can come in and just say *Yes, we are working on it*, then probably we don't have the need to bring up the sour bitterness of those frivolous warns anymore.

 

Just saying that our voices have been heard is a good start.

[TheGrox]

If mods sent a simple PM and didnt even bother editing the post, I think things would work out better.

For little things, I think an edit (plus possibly a PM on the side, too) would work better. Other people will see the edit, and know not to make the same mistake as that person has.

 

I got warned for posting "Support!" in a suggestions thread. I didn't even know that was a rule (and I still don't agree with it being one). I have seen a lot of other posts in the BSA section which are along the same lines, and I have spoken to others who have posted such things and never been warned before. This shows that people are unaware of such rules as this, and I think editing posts for such things would be a lot more productive than discretely warning/PMing people. If I hadn't chosen to edit my post and tell people about the warn, then people still would be unaware of the rule.

[Thuban]

The trouble with warnings in posts is - well, to be blunt, I know I don't go back and read mine again - who does? So in the end I'd do it again and again and sooner or later I'd cop a warn anyway for not having heard in the first place, if you see what I mean.

I go back and re-read every comment i write, to make sure it is clear, or if im worried it might be taken wrong. I stay out of hot topics when i need to because as you all have figured out by now, I have a history of long posts with explinations. I *have* to make sure that what i meant to say, and what i did say was being read the same way.

 

Arly, yes, we are /trying/ to make progress. The problem with defining spam is spam is differernt to everyone.

 

Pinkieseb: the reasoning behind suggesting editing the post is that a lot of the time, people will scroll back to their last post to see if they have been responded to. A edit warn in the post and a follow up pm could work, but only if the mod is willing to budget time for both.

 

Shoot, im starting to think i might need to make a channel for people to work out what they want to see around here. Easier to track chat than forum dicsussions for me

Edited February 5, 2013 by Thuban

[purplehaze]

Shoot, im starting to think i might need to make a channel for people to work out what they want to see around here. Easier to track chat than forum dicsussions for me

Please, no? I know you are obviously very comfortable with chat, but some of us are not. I follow with interest the comments here, but I completely lose what is going on in chat.

[Nectaris]

Please, no? I know you are obviously very comfortable with chat, but some of us are not. I follow with interest the comments here, but I completely lose what is going on in chat.

^This. I feel there is a lot going on in chats that a lot of people miss out on because they can't or don't want to participate in the chats. I already feel excluded in that it seems the majority of the discussion with TJ happens in IRC, we really don't need more of that especially when it has the potential to impact the forums.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Nectaris

[Rally Vincent]

Shoot, im starting to think i might need to make a channel for people to work out what they want to see around here. Easier to track chat than forum dicsussions for me

The IRC is not the forum. The discussion should stay where it belongs. The chat excludes everyone who doesn't use chat programs (for very solid reasons, I might add).

[Fuzzbucket]

^This. I feel there is a lot going on in chats that a lot of people miss out on because they can't or don't want to participate in the chats.

I agree. Last time I went to chat with a serious and urgent question about the forum (which had fallen over while I was in the middle of a trade) no-one paid any attention - they were all shouting about FOOD

[Thuban]

oh guys, i didnt mean for making serious decisions

 

I said that because the topic /is/ carrying over to chat, like all topics like this do... and it makes it easier for me to come up with ideas for things to pitch when im in my element. Its easier to bounce ideas off people in a live action scenerio than in the forum. I'm not special enough here to have any serious clout.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

oh guys, i didnt mean for making serious decisions

 

I said that because the topic /is/ carrying over to chat, like all topics like this do... and it makes it easier for me to come up with ideas for things to pitch when im in my element. Its easier to bounce ideas off people in a live action scenerio than in the forum. I'm not special enough here to have any serious clout.

((((hugs the SPECIAL Thuban))))

 

But it IS a valid point. Quite often we ordinary mortals hear about something that was said in chat which is really important - and we missed out.

[Thuban]

((((hugs the SPECIAL Thuban))))

 

But it IS a valid point. Quite often we ordinary mortals hear about something that was said in chat which is really important - and we missed out.

Well, unfortunately thats the nature of the beast. Im just as uncomfortable posting here on the forum as you guys can be in the chat. Its getting easier for me to post in the forums (after what.. three years of being here?), but it is still very hard for me, because you guys dont know me like they do and havent learned to tell when im being silly and when im trying to be serious.

 

I know theres common ground that can be reached, and i do think we all need to work together to figure out what rules need clarified, which ones need loosened up on and things like that. As hard as it can be sometimes to stay on track in this thread, it is really useful to know what you guys are thinking, even if i think the way we are going about it might be wrong.

 

I know there are people out there who have plenty to say about this topic, but are afraid to post for whatever reason. Anyone that wants to say something or make a point, but that for some reason cant post themselves is welcome to toss me a pm, and I'll gladly paraphrase and leave your name out of it. I tend to prefer one on one discussion anyhow when it comes to touchy topics

[Lythiaren]

Mods disagree all the time, guys - from hot button topics to moderator actions.  We're people too and we are not perfect.  That being said, we do often discuss courses of action with each other.

 

However, once a decision is made by any moderator, we do try to respect one another's decisions and not step on each other's toes.  That just creates bad blood no matter what you do or where you work.

 

Am I going to remove a warn that another mod gave?  99% no - I don't know the entire story and I trust the rest of the team to be fair with how they use their tools and deal with problems.  If I have a discussion with another mod over a contested warn, I will let them remove it themselves if they choose to (which has happened.  Again, we are only human.)

 

Part of "being on good terms with the mods" - we have to feel we can work with you.  If you have a bad history with someone, you aren't likely to get along in the workplace.  We are not playing favorites here - there are plenty of people on the forum that I like, but that I still don't feel would make a good fit for the moderating team.  Does that make sense?  (I am not always the best with words.)

Going back to this as it seems to have been missed.

 

There's a difference between trying not to step on each other's toes and turning a blind eye. If a mod is seen as corrupt by a user, that user will not ever go to that particular mod to dispute a warn, and that perception of corruption will typically come from either forum interactions or from getting way too many frivolous warns from that particular mod. I wouldn't trust a corrupt mod to give me any kind of answer beyond "you got warned because shut up is why". So if I don't trust a mod and I go to another to dispute something they did, that should be a huge red flag already. It means that my trust of that mod has been irreparably damaged somehow and you should be prepared to not take that mod's word at face value in private discussion (and to not take mine at face value either) because opinions will be coloured by that. That's when friendships need to be set aside and professional hats need to be put on.

 

Mods need to be ready and able to tell each other when they're completely full of crap and I've seen very few signs of that happening. Most of the time I only see eggshell-treading with each other's egos. If you don't know the full situation, you as a mod have the tools to find out. Even ordinary users can backread a thread, but you can also check the warn log yourself and look at what people are getting warned for.

 

On a somewhat related but still somewhat tangential note, if I'm getting warns just because a mod is cranky from reading a really heated argument, I'm going to say right now that that's not the right state of mind to be making modly actions.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Snowytoshi]

There's a difference between trying not to step on each other's toes and turning a blind eye. If a mod is seen as corrupt by a user, that user will not ever go to that particular mod to dispute a warn, and that perception of corruption will typically come from either forum interactions or from getting way too many frivolous warns from that particular mod. I wouldn't trust a corrupt mod to give me any kind of answer beyond "you got warned because shut up is why". So if I don't trust a mod and I go to another to dispute something they did, that should be a huge red flag already. It means that my trust of that mod has been irreparably damaged somehow and you should be prepared to not take that mod's word at face value in private discussion (and to not take mine at face value either) because opinions will be coloured by that. That's when friendships need to be set aside and professional hats need to be put on.

 

I completely agree with this. I have only received one warn in the time I have been here, I felt that the mod who handed out that warn was respectful. However I have seen topics closed that I do not think deserve to be closed, topics where there is still discussion to be had and questions that have not been answered. Instead of locking it for 24 hours and going through the thread and removing offending posts and warning the people who have been spamming or flamming (real flamming, not light sarcasm), the thread is closed and never opened. This shuts off meaningful discussion and could limit chances to create new ideas and/or improve rules.

 

I know that this is not completely warn related, but since it is related to disipline on the forums, I think it is a valid point to bring up.

[Rally Vincent]

Well, unfortunately thats the nature of the beast. Im just as uncomfortable posting here on the forum as you guys can be in the chat. Its getting easier for me to post in the forums (after what.. three years of being here?), but it is still very hard for me, because you guys dont know me like they do and havent learned to tell when im being silly and when im trying to be serious.

But we are discussing forum matters. The appropriate place to discuss them is the forum. Else, why not discuss this over a nice game of WOW? At least, you'd have Lythiaren there.

[Khallayne]

 

 

Okay, here's my two cents. I'm going to try to explain my view clearly, but I sometimes fail, and I use a lot of words. Another warning. This post was written over 4 hours while I’m at work. I’ve missed a lot of the conversation.

 

 

 

I've moderated a few sites, and conformed to different moderating styles, and the one thing I've learned while being a moderator is that you don't throw dirty laundry out in public, and you shouldn't say something in public without considering if it is going to throw another moderator under the bus... Why? Because for one, it causes a LOT of friction on the moderator team, and maybe not for you, but for the moderator thrown under the bus, for two, it makes people less willing to talk to people who have thrown them under a bus, and for three, you members have been talking about this during a lot of this current discussion and that's been brought up multiple times in a thread, it leaves hurts and scars, and those hurts and scars stick with you. They make you bitter. They make you more one sided to those situations. They make you that little bit nervous and you get that voice in the back of your head that makes you start questioning everything you do, or which actions you're going to take otherwise. I'm sure some of you can relate, though perhaps not all for being thrown under the bus, but by the fact that some of you have expressed concerns that you were afraid to contact moderators.

 

 

 

However, things like this can get better, but it takes time and it takes patience, and it takes effort on both sides and both sides putting a lot of faith in the other. There are old hurts and putting yourself out there puts you at risk to get more hurts. And so when things like this come up, it's often met with a lot of resistance on one side, and a lot of pushing on the other.

 

 

 

I was never one to come in and say my opinion, and on many matters I still won't give myself this liberty even if I've stepped down from being an active moderator. On some level, I still think of myself as part of the staff and the same want to help out the members and be a help to the moderating team hasn't left me since the first day I put my moderator application in for a roleplay moderator. When you're a moderator, you suddenly lose the ability to take off your mod hat and just be a normal member. Your words have more influence, good or bad, and people can take the words that you say and throw it at another moderator, or you can have the words of another moderator thrown back at you... And then you get stuck in the awkward moment (I find) of what do you say? Do you act the fool to keep consistency, because a moderator team being inconsistent isn't a pleasant experience, or do you say go by your beliefs because you believe them not caring how people are going to take your words.

 

 

 

At the end of the day, I think a sentence I used a lot and I didn't want to use was: "I understand where you're coming from, but here is my take and here is why I had to do this as a moderator." Because to me, becoming part of the team, and even after stepping down, isn't always about what I personally thought should be done, and isn't always doing what I want to do, but doing what has to be done, and there are more times than not that I've not agreed with something. I found I developped a double front so to speak. I'd wear my mod hat when dealing with members, trying to be on the same wavelength or at least appear to be with other moderators, and then turn around and say my opinion to the moderators. Because that's also part of what being a team means. It means speaking up when people aren't comfortable. It means listening to others even if you don't see their views. It means offering your own. But it also means trying to understand and bring yourself to accept the views of others, if only to get an understanding of it before coming down with a final decision. And it often means compromise... And It isn't always a pleasant compromise, because a compromise (to me) isn't getting what you want. That's one side compromising and you standing still... It's meeting in the middle to a point of where no one is quite satisfied.

 

 

 

And I found the worst thing about this was that it was an active practice. You think it sounds easy. I though it sounded easy. I thought I could be one way today and switch on a dime, and it really wasn't. I hated the fact that it was an active practice.

 

 

 

And... Since I started writing this I forget the other points I wanted to bring up as this has been in the works for the past four hours... I also forget what I was talking about and I'll just skip to Lyth's post since I can't quite ready many of the others as my phone is being an idiot.

 

 

 

Lyth, I know this is going to be redundant, but if you've had a hard time with a moderator, PM another. Or PM someone who can look into it that you trust to look into it fairly and neutrally. If there's no one you trust to look into it that way, the only other person I can recommend is Teej.

 

 

 

[Lythiaren]

But we are discussing forum matters. The appropriate place to discuss them is the forum. Else, why not discuss this over a nice game of WOW? At least, you'd have Lythiaren there.

Hey now, I'm a hermit on WoW and I'm not usually on during the day on Tuesdays.

 

But yes I agree with you for once. Forum matters should be discussed on the forum where forum users are more likely to participate. Just as IRC matters should be discussed with the regulars there.

 

Lyth, I know this is going to be redundant, but if you've had a hard time with a moderator, PM another. Or PM someone who can look into it that you trust to look into it fairly and neutrally. If there's no one you trust to look into it that way, the only other person I can recommend is Teej.

That's basically what I said, yes. If I don't trust a mod enough to dispute their own actions I'm never going to PM them because I already don't trust them to do their job. But PMing another mod leads to the problem where mods are afraid to step on each other's toes, and since even Lyz said she's 99% unlikely to reverse another mod's decision, well, what's even the point of disputing? The corrupt mod gets their way anyway because they're too proud to admit they've made a mistake. The other mod is apparently afraid to refute them so I get the short end of the stick no matter what. And on top of that I'm likely to get a long biased lecture in my PM box justifying the "bad" mod's actions, full of demonzing extrapolation and left-field assumptions, basically saying I'm not worth consideration. So every time I have something to dispute I'm usually better off just docking a few more points from my faith in the moderating team without bothering to say anything instead, because disputing is such a waste of time.

 

TJ himself is a last resort. I don't talk to him because he's usually not on at the same time as me and a lot of the time he doesn't get a chance to answer me.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Starbit]

It's a while back now but I wasn't able to comment when I saw it, I want to agree with Angelicdragonpuppy entirely. And I suppose it kind of links in with the current topic as the user I had this experience with is a moderator.

 

I'm not against crit, crit is essential for improvement, I'm practically begging for it on my threads as nobody seems interested, but on my first thread in Dragon Requests in a while, after I had my sketches up and were in the process of spritelining (my own fault for rushing ahead, but I was excitable and silly and hadn't recieved any crits from anyone) a user came into my thread, a mod and in-cave spriter no less, so their opinion holds a fair bit of weight, and pretty much said "you're still looking for other sketches, right?"

 

That knocked the wind right out of me. They hadn't given me anything to work off of. Nothing like "I think this needs to be improved" or "Maybe you should wait for more sketches first" No, they went straight in and totally disregarded my sketches and made me feel pretty bad over them. When they did offer criticism they literally ripped it apart. Their main issue? They felt it looked cartoonish. The dragon had a snubbed nose and large ears. That was their design. Yes, I agree the legs were 'noodlish' as they put it, but they didn't say how they could improve it. The whole tone of their second post was pretty much "this is all the things that are bad, get rid of it, get better sketchers". Nobody else had any issue with their noses or ears.

 

Admittedly they did finally post some advice on how to give them shoulders, but that was a fair way into their comments. At this point I don't even feel I want to continue with that idea anymore, because I don't feel I can produce a sketch that will satisfy them. My dragon won't be the same without it's nose or ears, to me.

 

I have a friend on here who is also in dragon requests and feels other users can be rude like this. If that person had given me pointers, con crit, or advice, instead of just slamming down my work from the word go, I might have been able to improve my dragon and feel like continuing it. They gave me no kind of constructive criticism. It was pure criticism. It felt like an attack.

 

Now, on my newer dragon request, the Snarebacks, I'm slowly making progress and have produced my new spriteline, because people finally came in and gave crits (Thank you Loeki and Sock!) and I was able to improve the issue of the shoulder and the lack of chest. I felt really happy because I knew how to make it better. They offered other ideas, too, like patterns. Or adjusting the wing arms. That helped me, and now I feel more confident with this design.

 

However I'm still always worrying that user will come back into my new thread and tear it apart again. I don't want to feel like I'm going to be attacked at any minute on that forum. I'd love to offer sketches to other threads but I now feel my art isn't up to scratch.

 

There is such a difference between advice, pointers, and constructive criticism, and coming into a thread saying that's bad, that's bad, are you seriously using those sketches. It scares users from the request board. It scared me away in the past (admittedly my sketching skills have improved since) and it almost scared me away again. It can be such a hostile environment for new sketchers and spriters.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Starbit-Plushie

[Fuzzbucket]

But yes I agree with you for once. Forum matters should be discussed on the forum where forum users are more likely to participate. Just as IRC matters should be discussed with the regulars there.

I don't think Thuban was seriously suggesting taking this to IRC - just saying it can be EASIER for her there...

The corrupt mod gets their way anyway because they're too proud to admit they've made a mistake. The other mod is apparently afraid to refute them so I get the short end of the stick no matter what.

(My bold) - I really take exception to that phrase. Whatever one may or may not like here, I don't think ANY of our mods is corrupt. Even the one I disagreed with

Edited February 5, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Lythiaren]

I really take exception to that phrase. Whatever one may or may not like here, I don't think ANY of our mods is corrupt. Even the one I disagreed with

Alas, in the years I've spent here I've seen several mods (which are no longer active, mind) taking mod actions on behalf of their friends and using that to make their friends "more right" in arguments. Like warning people purely for disagreeing with their friends. That's pretty corrupt. :C

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Fuzzbucket]

Alas, in the years I've spent here I've seen several mods (which are no longer active, mind) taking mod actions on behalf of their friends and using that to make their friends "more right" in arguments. Like warning people purely for disagreeing with their friends. That's pretty corrupt. :C

I don't know if that's the word I would use. But anyway - we are discussing the situation NOW - we can't improve the past; we have to let it go- and if those mods are no longer active, they aren't an issue. I am not aware of any here who I would regard as even malevolent, and many of them are commenting helpfully here. Can we go FORWARDS rather than harping on the past ?

Edited February 5, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Lythiaren]

I was using an example from the past to make a point about mod actions now; not a lot has changed on the user end since then, except that certain aspects of power-tripping have stopped being visible. If mods are afraid to step on toes and are very unlikely to reverse another mod's actions, what's the point of disputing when there's a high chance that nothing will be done? If mods discuss their actions with each other all I can imagine happening is mod A asks mod B why they did [x], B justifies their actions, and A goes "oh ok" and leaves it unless the reason is "because I hate that person".