Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[Obscure_Trash]

Would you have any one-word suggestions for discrimination against a white person based solely on the fact that they're white? Or a heteroseuxal solely because of them being heterosexual? Or a cis person solely because they're cis? It's a bit of a mouthful to say "[whatever] discrimination against those supported by the system".

 

Discrimination, prejudice, bullying, hate.

 

You could just say prejudice, but there are different kinds of prejudice.

 

So?

 

God doesn't make who you are, he gives you choice, to what you want to be. I have nothing against homesexualty, I just think its wrong + part of the reason we were put here was to reproduce. (this is just my belief)

 

Did you choose to be heterosexual? I know many people who would be interested in how you made this choice so that they could do the same and stop experiencing the discrimination and hate they face.

[TCA]

I have nothing against homesexualty, I just think its wrong

Look at this again and tell me what's wrong with this statement. (Besides the spelling error.)

 

You cannot think something is wrong AND have nothing against it. They are incompatible concepts. Either you think homosexuals are doing something wrong, or you have nothing against letting them do as they will.

 

Anyways, I'm sure someone else will follow me up with the articles regarding how sexuality isn't a choice, but really, humans are doing a darn good job of reproducing even WITH the gays in the picture, so that's hardly a concern.

[brairtrainer]

God doesn't make who you are, he gives you choice, to what you want to be. I have nothing against homesexualty, I just think its wrong + part of the reason we were put here was to reproduce. (this is just my belief)

The thing is there is proof that there are genes that can highten your chance of being gay, and that gay men's brains work more like a woman's brain than they do a straight man.

 

You don't choose who you're attracted too, just like you don't choose what foods you like. Its how your body is made.

[JellyBall]

ignore

Edited April 15, 2013 by JellyBall

[HeatherMarie]

Choice... Yup, I *chose* to be attracted to females who most likely won't return my affections. I chose to be bullied and threatened and insulted. I chose to be someone, something, that can legally get me fired in many US states. .... Yeah, sure, it's a choice.

 

I'd honestly *love* to hear a real, true explanation from someone on when and how they *chose* to be hetrosexual. Because if we choose to be homosexual, the same thing must also hold for straight people. When did you decisively *choose* to only be attracted to the opposite sex? I've yet to hear anyone actually answer that question, no matter how many times it's asked. ...... 'Cause they can't answer it.

[Riverwillows]

God doesn't make who you are, he gives you choice, to what you want to be. I have nothing against homesexualty, I just think its wrong + part of the reason we were put here was to reproduce. (this is just my belief)

I see. You believe that Homosexuality is a choice. Ok, I can understand that. But consider these issues:

 

If Homosexuality IS a choice, then why do kids as young as 5 show a preference for the same sex in who they crush on? (yes, kindergartners "crush", it's cute.) They don't know about sex, they are just attracted to that little red haired kid, even if they don't understand why. The Bible says the age of reason is 7. So these kids are innocent, but they show a preference even at 5 for what attracts them.

 

And what about young teens, who know they like that same-sex friend of theirs, they want to kiss them and hug them, yet because our society has let them know those feelings are "wrong" they hide it and become depressed. Why would those teens WANT to choose to be that way, when all they want to do is "fit in". But they just can't help their feelings. None of them choose that particular hell. They have no choice.

 

And what kid would CHOOSE to have a way of being that would cause their own parents to disown them, and kick them out? Again, they can try to hide it, but eventually they do have one choice....reveal who they are and risk their families hating them, or hiding it, playing along with societal expectations, and eventually ending up in therapy because their psyches cannot handle it.

 

WHO WOULD CHOOSE THIS?? No one. It's not a choice hon. It's the way they were born. God made them that way. There is nothing wrong with them.

 

The only choice here, is the dogged intent to believe it's a choice, by those who refuse to listen to any real reasoning.

 

And, Jellyball, I have a question: Did you choose to be straight? Or is that just the way your natural feelings go?

Edited April 15, 2013 by Riverwillows

[soupnazi]

KageSora: I really don't see what's so difficult about using -ism words to mean systemic/institutionalized discrimination. It takes me maybe a paragraph to explain the difference and why one is better than the other. Then the person reading it can go "yeah, okay" and use this slightly different terminology and now it's over.

 

Would you have any one-word suggestions for discrimination against a white person based solely on the fact that they're white? Or a heteroseuxal solely because of them being heterosexual? Or a cis person solely because they're cis? It's a bit of a mouthful to say "[whatever] discrimination against those supported by the system".

 

I don't understand. Are you saying that we should use the term for the shorter definition rather than the longer because the shorter definition would then not have a single word for it? Which is the exact same situation you seem to be saying the longer definition should be subject to?

 

And the thing is... If you WANT people to listen to you, then you're going to have to NOT make them go "...sounds like too much work to listen screw that".

 

If somebody is not going to listen to me about discrimination because I'm using a word in a different way from them, and ask them to use it the same way, they're not worth talking to. If somebody can't stomach "let's use this word to mean this longer definition because that's how it's used in these contexts", why would I expect them to listen to anything else I have to say?

 

And forcing them to relearn terms they're familiar with right from the start to get involved is going to turn a lot of people off. Forcing them to use longer words when people these days seem to be tending towards shorter and shorter ways to express things is going to turn people off, too, I think.

 

But if we don't use -ism words to mean the longer definition, then people have to add qualifiers to the word, which is exactly what you advocate doing. One way we have people using -ism words for discrimination, and another term for systemic discrimination, and one way we have people using one word for systemic discrimination, and another term for discrimination. If the difference is really so big that people won't be able to get past it, again, I don't think those people are worth it in a million years.

 

I'm all for explaining it to them once they start getting involved--but to get the masses involved initially you have to keep them from thinking it's too confusing to bother with--ESPECIALLY when it doesn't obviously directly affect them. Like if they're white, and you want to make them more aware of the systematic racism that occurs. Or if they're male, or heterosexual, or cis.

 

So... what should I start with? Any explanation of systemic discrimination in the context you're talking about is going to involve new ideas that contradict the person's previous ideas. Why is this so different?

[JellyBall]

River I understand what you're saying, I know they don't have a choice. IDK I screwed up that previous post. For your question, it's just something that I find normal. Thanks for being calm about it though. Good points

Edited April 15, 2013 by JellyBall

[prpldrgnfr]

 

If Homosexuality IS a choice, then why do kids as young as 5 show a preference for the same sex in who they crush on? (yes, kindergartners "crush", it's cute.) They don't know about sex, they are just attracted to that little red haired kid, even if they don't understand why. The Bible says the age of reason is 7. So these kids are innocent, but they show a preference even at 5 for what attracts them.

 

And what about young teens, who know they like that same-sex friend of theirs, they want to kiss them and hug them, yet because our society has let them know those feelings are "wrong" they hide it and become depressed. Why would those teens WANT to choose to be that way, when all they want to do is "fit in". But they just can't help their feelings. None of them choose that particular hell. They have no choice.

 

And what kid would CHOOSE to have a way of being that would cause their own parents to disown them, and kick them out? Again, they can try to hide it, but eventually they do have one choice....reveal who they are and risk their families hating them, or hiding it, playing along with societal expectations, and eventually ending up in therapy because their psyches cannot handle it.

 

WHO WOULD CHOOSE THIS?? No one. It's not a choice hon. It's the way they were born. God made them that way. There is nothing wrong with them.

 

The only choice here, is the dogged intent to believe it's a choice, by those who refuse to listen to any real reasoning.

 

This so much. I've often argued these points myself. Whoever you're attracted to, you're born that way. I didn't choose to be hetero anymore then someone else chose not to be. It's also not 'contagious', as some who don't want same-sex couples to adopt think the children might catch 'teh gay'.

[Delira]

I think it's wrong, God make Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

That's because if it was Adam and Steve, there would have to M-preg

 

My stand now is that there is nothing wrong with it, and to me it's totally natural, an everyday thing. This one boy got weirded out at my partial because some of the other kids were homosexual, and I was honestly confused about what was wrong, I guess I've just gotten so much exposure now.

Which is why I'm slightly less ashamed to admit this; when I was younger I found it kinda gross. (My siblings and would use gay as an insult, it's funny, hahaha. y'know? 'Cause well, our only exposure was well... none! Just some on tv, but you know how that can be, but I digress.

My stand became this: I don't have to like, I can think it's totally gross, but you know what? They're humans. There are people who look down on me, because of my house and my weight, but I'm still doing what I do, so why can't they? There are dozens, maybe hundreds of religions, - thousands? I'm no expert - that are conflicting and crossing and breaching, but people can worship who they want, believe in what they want.

So even if I personally think it's wrong, that shouldn't mean that they aren't allowed to love who they want.

 

And somehow that turned into me being more and more okay with it, and nowadays it's not even something I normally have to think of. There's no difference between two men in love, two women, or a man and a woman. (Or even three people!) There's love, and there's love.

 

(Also not love, but that has no bearing on gender, just personality. Well I guess gender because sexuality but I'm just going to shut up now. I sound like a tool.)

[ShinyTomato]

God doesn't make who you are, he gives you choice, to what you want to be. I have nothing against homesexualty, I just think its wrong + part of the reason we were put here was to reproduce. (this is just my belief)

So what about the physical, biological differences between straight people and homosexual people?

 

Things like the facts that:

Gay men and straight women have, equally proportioned brain hemispheres. Lesbian women and straight men have slightly larger right brain hemispheres.

 

The VIP SCN nucleus of the hypothalamus is larger in men than in women, and larger in gay men than in heterosexual men

 

The functioning of the inner ear and the central auditory system in lesbians and bisexual women are more like the functional properties found in men than in non-gay women

 

Gay and non-gay people's brains respond differently to two putative sex pheromones

 

Further disrupting the whole idea that being homosexual is a "choice" I tried to be straight. I went to multiple places who claimed they could cure me. I put myself through electroshock, through vomit therapy, through verbal abuse, all wanting desperately to be straight. Not straight.

 

Now, Nascha would be better to take about this, but Adam and Eve were made for each other and were set right in front of each other, saying this is the other half. Most of us don't have this. This is especially probative as Adam was not made male to begin with, but intersexed, in G-d's image, without gender.

 

[12dragon34]

I agree with you

Also, eve was made from adom's rib. That means she was part of him

With that said, why do people get so upset when a mother marries there son for example? The son was part of the mother. Therefor, it should be ok since it was in the bible. That last part was for those that base marriage on the book.

[PointOfOrigin]

I agree with you

Also, eve was made from adom's rib. That means she was part of him

With that said, why do people get so upset when a mother marries there son for example? The son was part of the mother. Therefor, it should be ok since it was in the bible. That last part was for those that base marriage on the book.

Probably because we are biologically inclined to avoid that kind of relationships. If we didn't have Westermarck Effect we would have a lot more children with defects.

[Riverwillows]

If you were to take the Bible literally, which most Christians do, then incest between brother and sister is cool.

 

Because, Adam and Eve had many children, and from them, many grandchildren (as said in the Bible).

 

BUT, if Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, where did their childrens mates come from?

 

Answer: Each other. Sisters mated with Brothers. The only solution, if you take the Bible literally.

 

And who's to say, Brothers didn't get together with Brothers and Sisters with Sisters??

 

Just something to chew on.

[ShinyTomato]

Excuse me while I bang my head against a wall here.

 

If you were to take the Bible literally, which most Christians do, then incest between brother and sister is cool.

 

This is a big leap in judgement. While the most obvious answer is yes, if you view Adam and Eve as the only humans at that point, then yes, incest would have been necessary at that time. However, eventually, there are explicit laws forbidding it.

 

Now, you can argue that this is because the genetics had degraded, as one would expect, but by the time of The Law, that had changed. Much like how it used to be legal to drive a car without a seatbelt, and now it is not.

 

This is, of course, only if you take certain things literally.

 

 

[Riverwillows]

That's what I meant.....IF you take the bible literally. Which I don't.

 

BUT, I have heard lots of....shall we say.....more rural people use that to justify certain relationships in their own families.

 

So I used that as an example of how taking the Bible, or any written holy book too literally, can be kinda silly.

 

And that leads to people taking the bible literally to justify homophobic reactions and ideas. BECAUSE it says so in the Bible.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Riverwillows

[Walker]

Honestly, same as a gay couple, there's no real harm in a pair of adults consensually deciding to have a relationship related or not. I know someone is going to pull the genetics card out, but it's the same for a couple that carries the cystic fibrosis gene. As long as they're careful about it and get their kid tested/are prepared to handle a special needs kid, what's our place to judge?

 

Something I've felt strongly about for a while. If I support freedom to love for gay couples, I'm not going to sit back and say no to someone else just cause it seems squicky to me.

[Syaoransbear]

Honestly, same as a gay couple, there's no real harm in a pair of adults consensually deciding to have a relationship related or not. I know someone is going to pull the genetics card out, but it's the same for a couple that carries the cystic fibrosis gene. As long as they're careful about it and get their kid tested/are prepared to handle a special needs kid, what's our place to judge?

 

Something I've felt strongly about for a while. If I support freedom to love for gay couples, I'm not going to sit back and say no to someone else just cause it seems squicky to me.

I 100% agree with this.

[12dragon34]

you tell them!

[hazeh]

Yeah, I've come to realize that I don't want to impede on relationships in that manner either. Although I never really liked the idea of incest, I can't deny that it happens and will continue to happen.

 

All I care about is that the involved parties are consensual and of legal age to sign a marriage contract.

[Riverwillows]

While the idea of incest does bother me, as long as the people involved are over 18, I won't say anything against it.

[PointOfOrigin]

I've got a knee jerk reaction to it. Mostly because biology and I've honestly never heard of a consensual incest. Most of the news center on really, really horrific cases.

[12dragon34]

if both sides allow it, should anything be allowed?

[hazeh]

I've got a knee jerk reaction to it. Mostly because biology and I've honestly never heard of a consensual incest. Most of the news center on really, really horrific cases.

There was this one story I heard of a long time ago about how this woman and man met on the internet and fell in love and decided to get married. Only, after genetic testing they found out he was her biological father o_O apparently it didn't deter them, as far as I'm aware.

[PointOfOrigin]

There was this one story I heard of a long time ago about how this woman and man met on the internet and fell in love and decided to get married. Only, after genetic testing they found out he was her biological father o_O apparently it didn't deter them, as far as I'm aware.

Can't help it if only bad news get heard about.

 

And that brings us back to Westermarck Effect . Apparently, we are more likely to fall in love with our close relatives - the only thing stopping us is the effect. And that's why, very often people find to be attracted to siblings or parents that they've never met.