MURDERcomplexx

Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

2,738 posts in this topic

I'm 100% for gay marriage. I've honestly yet to hear a single valid argument from those against it. And frankly, I don't see why just because you don't like something yourself, that should mean that no one else is able to enjoy the right.

 

I don't like yellow. Does that mean no one else in the world should be allowed to wear yellow shirts? No, that would just be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

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I thought this would be the perfect thread to share this in.

 

Anyway, I think everybody should have equal rights in every aspect of life, marriage obviously included.

 

It's so weird though, I have a friend who is gay and has had many boyfriends, yet he tells me that he doesn't believe gays should be able to get married... I'm not exactly sure what his reasoning is lol.

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I actually just had a speaker come to my school about the broad term of discrimination and this is what he had to say about gay/lesbian marriage/rights. I'm summarizing because his speech on it took over 30min, ^^;

 

'Why should people who are gay/lesbian be ostracized from most parts of society simply because they are in love with a person of their same gender. Now, a lot of people refer to this as a 'phase' but what if I went up to someone who was straight and said, 'this is just a phase, you'll wake up tomorrow morning and realize that you're gay' did you just wake up one day deciding you liked girls (if you're a guy) or guys (if you're a girl)? So how did I just wake up gay/lesbian one day?'

 

Now he said it a lot better than I did, but that's the gist of the story. I agree with him fully because I agree with the fact that you are born (or at least learn that you are) gay/lesbian/straight, you don't just decide one day that you are. I do believe, however, that you can go through an 'experimenting phase' where you try to figure out your orientation if you weren't born knowing it. (My older sister went through that).

 

Anyhow, tangent right up there over.... I think that gay/lesbian people should have equal rights to those who are 'straight' because neither of them just woke up one day saying that they were gay/straight/lesbian, they just were to begin with.

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All evidence has shown that sexuality is something that's determined very young. It's not entirely genetic (we don't think), but heredity is a very very complicated topic about which we still know virtually nothing.

 

It's most likely a combination of genes and conditions of the womb, though, and it is most definitely not a choice--although I will definitely say that it is possible to convince yourself you're something you're not.

 

It's an awful idea and the only thing you'll get from it is self-hatred and misery, but the brain can be masochistic sometimes.

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Okay... not sure what Area 51 and wars have to do with homosexuality... but I'm going to address the JFK part.

 

 

 

He was talking about communism. That speech is taken WAY out of context a lot to mean that JFK "knew something" about secret societies or some such crap. No. Not at all. Take a look at the context and time period. Not only did it not have anything to do with the CIA and the FBI, it also didn't have anything to do with homosexuals.

 

 

 

 

the questions was to prove that the american governement was paranoid about everything and everyone

 

i mean seriously

 

and each question has no link about the other one inche question is independatn to one another

 

 

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I don't think it matters if it's a choice, a genetic issue, or an alien mutation :U It's a personal, individual trait that doesn't need anyone else to go nosing through and finding the roots of. I mean, seriously. I don't need or want to explain to people why I love women or why my two moms love each other. Keep yer nose outta my business >:|

[general]

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I don't think it matters if it's a choice, a genetic issue, or an alien mutation :U It's a personal, individual trait that doesn't need anyone else to go nosing through and finding the roots of. I mean, seriously. I don't need or want to explain to people why I love women or why my two moms love each other. Keep yer nose outta my business >:|

[general]

To me, it's pretty much along the lines of whether or not you prefer Coke to Pepsi- it's there, it's likely due to an uncontrollable way of how your genes have lined up, and it's not something you should go pouring down other people's throats, just live and let live.

 

 

All that said, Dr. Pepper is the absolute best. >|

 

... hopefully that made sense xd.png

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i'm for gay marriage! i'm bi and my aunts have been lesbian since she was about my age, she was going to get married but called it off, they would have had to go aoverseas for themarriage, it's stupid how the law says it. dry.gif

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I personally have gay friends. Some of the nicest people you would ever want to meet.

 

Except in the eyes of God, same sex and same marriage is wrong.

 

I do believe in god, and try and follow the teachings of god.

 

Kestra15 has a good point though ... QUOTE[i personally think the 'God doesn't approve of gays' stems from the same roots as other problems I have with parts of the Christian faith - a method of control enforced by those few who had the power to do so at the time, an outmoded concept.]QUOTE

 

What is wrong with this world is that everything bad goes. You can not spank your kids anymore. You can not say prayer in school etc, etc.

 

When I was growing up, we did not have the crime, kids killing kids or parents and all the rest of the bad stuff going on to day.

 

When you get away from the teachings of what is good and right in this world, you ask and bring unwanted trouble, especially when you accept any and everything.

 

Something to think about if you are mature enough to do so.

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I personally have gay friends. Some of the nicest people you would ever want to meet.

 

Except in the eyes of God, same sex and same marriage is wrong.

 

I do believe in god, and try and follow the teachings of god.

 

Kestra15 has a good point though ... QUOTE[i personally think the 'God doesn't approve of gays' stems from the same roots as other problems I have with parts of the Christian faith - a method of control enforced by those few who had the power to do so at the time, an outmoded concept.]QUOTE

 

What is wrong with this world is that everything bad goes. You can not spank your kids anymore. You can not say prayer in school etc, etc.

 

When I was growing up, we did not have the crime, kids killing kids or parents and all the rest of the bad stuff going on to day.

 

When you get away from the teachings of what is good and right in this world, you ask and bring unwanted trouble, especially when you accept any and everything.

 

Something to think about if you are mature enough to do so.

"we did not have the crime, kids killing kids or parents"

Yes you did.

You totally did.

Its just that you didn't hear about it because of the lack of the Internet.

 

"You can not say prayer in school etc, etc. "

Yes you can. What you can't do is say it out loud, or be led by a teacher. This is a secular country(I assume you live in a country which allows freedom of religion). Religion has no place whatsoever in any kind of government-run service. Giving Christians, or Jews, Or Muslims, or Buddhists, or Wiccans, or Atheists, or WHATEVER special treatment, it impedes on the rights of other people. You can't do that. Praying out loud is unnecessary and impedes on the rights of others.

 

Also,

 

>Implying religion is necessary to teach morals.

 

 

So that this isn't 100 percent off topic,

 

I'm seriously upset that the archaic beliefs that Marriage is between one Man and one Woman is still used as law in the US. It has no place. Marriage is a secular, legal contract between a group of people. In the modern world, Church has nothing to do with it. I also think that polygamy should be legal(Whether it be 1 man and 3 wives, 3 men and 1 wife, 4 wives or 4 husbands), but this isn't the time or place for that discussion.

 

Oh, also,

 

>"PROTECTING THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE!"

>You can get married in Las Vegas for 50 dollars and 20 minutes without even getting out of your car, then divorce within 10 minutes for 50 more dollars.

>Kim Kardashian has a 72 day marriage, wedding cost millions of dollars that could have gone to charity to help others, instead, it goes to a pointless ceremony that everyone will forget in 10 years.

Edited by canobiecrazy

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I personally have gay friends. Some of the nicest people you would ever want to meet.

 

Except in the eyes of God, same sex and same marriage is wrong.

 

I do believe in god, and try and follow the teachings of god.

Okay. You're more than welcome to hold that opinion and belief for yourself.

 

But at what point do you think it's okay to let your religion run the way someone else lives their life?

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I personally have gay friends. Some of the nicest people you would ever want to meet.

 

Except in the eyes of God, same sex and same marriage is wrong.

 

I do believe in god, and try and follow the teachings of god.

 

Kestra15 has a good point though ... QUOTE[i personally think the 'God doesn't approve of gays' stems from the same roots as other problems I have with parts of the Christian faith - a method of control enforced by those few who had the power to do so at the time, an outmoded concept.]QUOTE

 

What is wrong with this world is that everything bad goes. You can not spank your kids anymore. You can not say prayer in school etc, etc.

 

When I was growing up, we did not have the crime, kids killing kids or parents and all the rest of the bad stuff going on to day.

 

When you get away from the teachings of what is good and right in this world, you ask and bring unwanted trouble, especially when you accept any and everything.

 

Something to think about if you are mature enough to do so.

You seem to be under the impression that your religion is the only basis for what should be "right" and "wrong" in the world. Why?

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There are religions that think it's "right" to kill people of other faiths, to do suicide-bombings, to rape and torture women....

 

Religion *cannot* be the only way of determining right and wrong. When someone honestly believes that, that's when things *do* go wrong.

 

Right and wrong should be determined by a combination of religious/spiritual belief, moral values, family/custom upbringing, and of course local laws.

 

I think it's rather sad that some people belive that crimes just didn't "exist" back when places were more religious. Crime has *always* existed. Except it used to be that victims were punished and shunned for speaking up, that no one *could* talk about crimes. That's the major reason that more crimes are talked about and realized now, is that it's no longer so wrong to admit that you've been a victim. Is *that* a bad thing? I don't think so.

 

More on-topic, I've never really understood why so many people think that "following God" means discriminating against and condemning to hell everything that wasn't okay "back then". The Bible was written *how* long ago? People have changed since then. The *world* has changed since then. And just like there was made a New Testament with updated rules/information/scripture, how does anyone know that God wouldn't want a newer one written now? Why do people have the nerve to claim that they *know* what God wants, because of what such an old book says? Are they saying that God never changes, on anything, even when the entire world has changed?

 

More on-topic: Two of my best friends (who live in Ireland) got married recently. It's wonderful to know that *some* places will allow that.

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i'm for gay marriage because believe that its a persons right. and i myself am gay though there is really no gays or bisexual around where i live so i don't even bother looking to far outward at the moment. though i can't really find too much about the countries that allows gay marriage for some reason. and i can't really socialize with other lesbians because of my family being ageist gays, its more than frustrating to because i can't even watch glee or start an new show because my granny goes off pouting because there are gay characters on it.

 

i wish that more people were open to accepting the gay community even if they don't like it; i don't think that any person straight or gay, to get harmed for there beliefs.

Edited by xhunter

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I'm actually quite upset that people still see marriage in the Christian aspect. I can give my POV from that of someone who isn't Christian and while I can understand most of the aspects behind it, this whole marriage is only between one man and one woman thing is a load of sausage. (Yes, sausage) And I'm very upset that the archbishop of my area is holding talks or whatever to get my /state/ to ban gay marriage. And the sad thing is, people are supporting him because he is the head of my area's local church community. But wasn't there a little tidbit in the constitution that states that religion and state will be completely separate? So if that is to happen then people either need to get rid of the tax deductions that come along with marriage period, or gay marriage needs to be legalized. Just because you can't get 'married' perse because that is a Christian term, doesn't mean that you can't be bonded in other ceremonies. My older sister had a hand fasting ceremony in Wisconsin to legalize her marriage to my sister-in-law. They didn't get 'married' but they are still bonded in Wisconsin.

 

Edit: I'm typing up a very descriptive, polite letter to my state senator and archbishop just to make myself feel a little better. They might not read it, but then again they might, and be reminded of what it states in the constitution...

Edited by Anarya-Ameana

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I am completely for gay marriages and gay rights. I, personally, am proud to admit that I'm gay, so I am not sure how many people would count my vote. I have been with my own boyfriend for nearly five years, and plan to spend many, many more with him.

 

Edit: Not all religions are against it, either. Mine says that you should be with who you cherish most, no matter the gender, race, or religion preferances...

Edited by Kurei Chitsu

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But wasn't there a little tidbit in the constitution that states that religion and state will be completely separate?

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Not exactly "completely separate," but that's where the idea comes from anyway. For all purposes of the founding fathers, it was intended to keep the national government from establishing a state religion such as there had been in England, and causing persecution because of that.

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Popping in here to give my opinion, after lurking for a long time.

 

I'm completely in favour of same-sex marriage. I believe that all human beings deserve the same rights, such as, right to marriage. I have never heard a logical argument as to why two consenting people of the same sex cannot marry each other. Personally, I don't think there is one.

 

I myself have the capacity to love just about anyone, no matter their gender, race, religion, etc. Also being that I'm female, I refuse to marry a man until I have the right to marry a woman.

 

My two cents. (:

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I think that there are many things that express why people should be allowed to do things, and also things that express why they shouldn't. I don't believe that we should listen to either, but rather to our own conscience, and sense of what is right and what is wrong. Either way, there are always things that people can find that can bring them together. For example, this used to be posted in my school:

I'm the girl kicked out of her home because I confided in my mother that I'm a lesbian. I'm the prostitute working the streets because nobody will hire a transsexual woman. I'm the sister who holds her gay brother tight through the painful, tear-filled nights. We are the parents that buried her daughter long before her time. I'm the man who died alone in the hospital because they would not let my partner of twenty-seven years into the room. I'm the foster child who wakes up with nightmares of being taken away from the two fathers who are the only loving family I ever had, I wish they could adopt me. I'm one of the lucky ones, I guess. I survived the attack that left me in a coma for three weeks, and in another year I will be able to walk again. I'm not one of the lucky ones, I killed myself just weeks before graduating high school. It was simply too much to bear. We are the couple who had the Realtor hang up on us when she found out we wanted to rent a one-bedroom for two men. I'm the person who never knows which bathroom I should use if I want to avoid getting the management called on me. I'm the mother who is not allowed to even visit the child I bore, nursed, and raised, the court says that I'm a unfit mother because I live with another woman now. I'm the domestic-violence survivor who found the support system grow suddenly cold and distant when they found out that my abusive partner is also a woman. I'm the domestic-violence survivor who has no support system to turn to because I'm a male. I'm the father who has never hugged his son because I grew up afraid to show affection to other men. I'm the home-economics teacher who always wanted to teach gym until someone told me that only lesbians do that. I'm the man who died when the paramedics stopped treating me as soon as they realized that I was transsexual. I'm the person feeling guilty because I think I can be a much better person if I did not have to always deal with the society hating me. I'm the man who stopped attending church, not because I don't believe, but because they closed the doors to my kind. I'm the person who has to hide what this world needs the most, Love. I'm the person who is afraid of telling his loving Christian parents he loves another male.
. When we asked around, we couldn't find many people who couldn't sympathize with, or at least understand and agree with these statements. These are the kinds of things that show us what happens when we ostracize others from our society. True, it is biologically programmed into us to stay away from that which is different, but that only leads to cruelty and failure. I have heard the arguments that gays violate the sanctity of marriage, and that gay rights should be withheld to make way for marriages between straight couples, to make children for the future. I stand my ground that marriage is lawful, that matrimony is religious, like others in this thread. I also believe in many other factors. If you take a different look at it, gays and lesbians could be intentionally produced by our genetics. Our world only has so much space, and there are already seven billion people. Now, I want people to understand I am in no way advocating abortion, excessive birth control, or anything like that, but I think that it is simply not necessary for humans to reproduce like it might have been two or so thousand years ago or so. One of my theories is that since we surely are not in danger of facing extinction through lack of reproduction, our genetics might have loosened up on what we might find attractive. Partners that can reproduce aren't necessary anymore, and the possible pool of mates grows much larger. Being straight is no longer a factor for survival. I've noticed that among other animals that would take same-sex mates, there would be a larger proportion of same-sex mates if either the population was large, or if every mate of the opposite gender was already taken, leaving surplus of one gender. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that same-sex couples can happen when there isn't a necessary need to reproduce, or if there aren't mates of the opposite gender available.

 

Hopefully I haven't upset too many people with my thoughts, and I want to add one last thing. I don't intend to insult those of the gay community, and if I could quote my significant other:

I am completely for gay marriages and gay rights. I, personally, am proud to admit that I'm gay, so I am not sure how many people would count my vote. I have been with my own boyfriend for nearly five years, and plan to spend many, many more with him.

 

Edit: Not all religions are against it, either. Mine says that you should be with who you cherish most, no matter the gender, race, or religion preferances...

.

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Except in the eyes of God, same sex and same marriage is wrong.

 

Just as the curious, devout Jew -- on what are you basing this? Because, as far as I know, in all my studies, this has never come up in a way that makes any sense to me.

 

You can not say prayer in school etc, etc.

 

You can pray in school, you just can't force or ostracise people into it.

 

You can not spank your kids anymore.

 

Incorrect. You can't beat your kids, but spanking is not considered child abuse. This is a common misconception my wife, the social worker runs into all the time.

 

To quote California law, where we live:

A parent has the right to reasonably discipline a child by physical punishment and may administer reasonable punishment without being liable for battery. In order to be considered disciplinary the punishment must:

Be necessary

Be reasonable, not excessive, in the judgment of a third party such as a Child Protective Services representative, or a law enforcement officer. (Parents rights to discipline in California)

 

All 50 states allow spanking of children. There is however, a line between punishment and abuse.

 

When I was growing up, we did not have the crime, kids killing kids or parents and all the rest of the bad stuff going on to day.

 

When were you growing up? Simply for comparison purposes? Because the infanticide rate spike in the 1950s, and the murder of parents killing children spiked in the 1970s.

 

 

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"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Not exactly "completely separate," but that's where the idea comes from anyway. For all purposes of the founding fathers, it was intended to keep the national government from establishing a state religion such as there had been in England, and causing persecution because of that.

 

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html

 

The metaphor was from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists.

 

"The Supreme Court turned the spotlight on the "wall of separation" phrase in 1878 by declaring in Reynolds v. United States "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment."

 

"The high court took the same position in widely publicized decisions in 1947 and 1948, asserting in the latter case, McCollum v. Board of Education, that, "in the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'" Since McCollum forbade religious instruction in public schools, it appeared that the court had used Jefferson's "wall" metaphor as a sword to sever religion from public life, a result that was and still is intolerable to many Americans."

 

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http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html

 

The metaphor was from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists.

 

"The Supreme Court turned the spotlight on the "wall of separation" phrase in 1878 by declaring in Reynolds v. United States "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment."

 

"The high court took the same position in widely publicized decisions in 1947 and 1948, asserting in the latter case, McCollum v. Board of Education, that, "in the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'" Since McCollum forbade religious instruction in public schools, it appeared that the court had used Jefferson's "wall" metaphor as a sword to sever religion from public life, a result that was and still is intolerable to many Americans."

I'm well aware of where the phrase itself came from. But it is a common misconception that the constitution by itself has a "separation" clause that is as distinct as "state is completely separate from church." The separation presented in the constitution is more of a one way separation, keeping the state out of the church. In recent times it has been interpreted by the courts as a "wall," but it was not always so.

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"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Not exactly "completely separate," but that's where the idea comes from anyway. For all purposes of the founding fathers, it was intended to keep the national government from establishing a state religion such as there had been in England, and causing persecution because of that.

good point though i would like to add to it that it probably is affected by what religions the congress members are and what they think Too. i think this can make congress lend a ear to a rule or law more based on what their beliefs teach.

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I'm well aware of where the phrase itself came from. But it is a common misconception that the constitution by itself has a "separation" clause that is as distinct as "state is completely separate from church." The separation presented in the constitution is more of a one way separation, keeping the state out of the church. In recent times it has been interpreted by the courts as a "wall," but it was not always so.

Please go look up the Treaty of Tripoli. Passed unanimously by the Senate, and signed by the 2nd President of the United States, John Adams. Considering how many of the men who ratified this fought in the Revolutionary War themselves, I think they know exactly what our Founding Fathers - they and their peers - intended.

 

To keep the State out of the Church necessitates keeping the Church out of the State. Because if you allow the Church to have power in/over the State... well, which Church?

 

The Christian Fundamentalist movement (just one faction of the Christian church) includes beliefs like Quiverful (a woman is to have as many children as God gives her, no birth control, not even rhythm method, even if further pregnancy could be fatal to mother or child). They're part of a larger branch that says all women must always be subject to men One side wants to reinstate Old Testament laws for things like stoning a child to death for disrespecting his/her parents. Even the essence of "Thou shalt have no gods before the one true God," intrinsically means all other religions must be banned or suppressed. (And I will note there is a grassroots movement to ban sharia law, which is blatant interference in another religion.) Step away from the Fundamentalist movement for the Church, and a large portion of the Fundamentalists then say "They're not Christian." I know this one personally. I grew up thinking Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Catholics were unsaved people in cults, even though they ALL claim Christ.

 

Just about every other religion out there runs into similar problems - factions that disagree with all other religions, or even with each other. A general message that is actually incompatible with a strict reading of their laws and bylines. Even for those that don't fall into these traps, if the State allows ANY Church besides a Christian one to have influence, suddenly the Fundies are out in force screaming about oppression and the government trying to brainwash their kids. Again, lived this one. My former church thought it was religious oppression if we couldn't bombard people with unwanted and directly refused religious information any time we wanted to.

 

So please, keep the religion out of the law. And without the religious context, there is no secular reason for banning same-sex marriage. If the ability to bear children was a prerequisite, sterile and elderly people would not be allowed to marry. Same-sex couples can RAISE children (via adoption, surrogate/in-vitro fertilization, or previous opposite-sex relationship) just as well as hetero couples. But even couples who never have kids, or who's kids are grown, can be married. Which means the only difference that causes the restriction of same-sex couples is that they are the same sex. And saying the societal impact of shock and disapproval by people who don't agree with that lifestyle is reason enough to prevent it is not a valid point. It is, in fact, the exact same argument used by those protesting interracial marriage, once the "but they're two different species!" and "God says no!" arguments were shot down.

 

(edit for correction: the House of Representatives takes no part in ratification of treaties, sorry)

Edited by Lodrelhai

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