Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[Delira]

@dragon:

They can say it, they can feel it, they can write a song about it for all I care. The problem is when, because they believe it is wrong, they assume they're right, and therefore those who disagree are wrong, and they end up preventing people from having things such as a job, people they can love without discrimination, etc.

 

For example, I think religion is wrong. (So, so sorry if I offend anybody ) I find it unnecessary, and purely fiction. (However, religious references are fun in stories and such.) In my opinion, people use religion as a safety cushion for a reality they can't handle, and are misleading themselves and others with it. Just because I think this, doesn't mean I'm allowed to go and tell people at the church they're wrong, and I'm not going to go up to a little sunday school child and tell them all about why God is a lie. No, I won't. Why? Because it is not my place, and they are free to believe in God, Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, Zeus, or any other religious figure!

Except if you're a Cullenist (they basically use Twilight as their Bible, not sure if I got the name right), or one of those people who think Sburb will actually be the death of us. Just... no.

[Kestra15]

In my opinion, people use religion as a safety cushion for a reality they can't handle, and are misleading themselves and others with it.

And non-religious people are somehow better at coping with reality? Or do not use their own fantasy worlds to escape?

[brairtrainer]

Found something interesting on another site, had to share it here. Pretty much ends the slippery slope argument.

 

http://imgur.com/gallery/Q1nCX

[Question]

And non-religious people are somehow better at coping with reality? Or do not use their own fantasy worlds to escape?

I think was Delira is saying is that non-religious people don't believe in things like Heaven and Hell. Most of us can't use it as a comfort cushion because we don't believe in it. For example, I see death and I think its the end of life. Nothing else after that, you're just dead. But someone who believes in Heaven would be better with coping with death because of their belief. The idea of "being in a better place" doesn't apply to me because, in my eyes, that person or thing is just a corpse.

 

I wouldn't say non religious people are better at coping with it, more like we take reality and run at it without any armor. Religious people have a bit of a buffer and can fall back on their beliefs if they're in a tough situation. There isn't a fantasy world for me to escape to because I don't believe in them and I think the same applies for many other non religious people. Not all of them, of course, but many.

 

 

[Delira]

And non-religious people are somehow better at coping with reality? Or do not use their own fantasy worlds to escape?

Oh hell no, that doesn't make them better at coping with reality.

Although I'd rather not get into this, it's kinda off-topic/perfect kindle for a flame war, so again, sorry for offending you, that's just what I think, and I was using it as an example.

You can can think what you want, just don't use it as an excuse to influence other people. If other people go to churches and temples and other houses of prayer, it really doesn't affect me, save for minor things such as traffic, my dad leaving with the boys on sunday morning (which is nice,) etc. I'm not being harmed every time somebody utters a prayer, it doesn't burn my eyes to see people on their knees, the worst it does it bore me to death when my dad/stepmom pray at the table and say I can't move while they do.

It was just an example, because it was as close as I could to the topic without grasping from thin air

You can think homosexuality is wrong/gross/sinful/bad, just as long as you don't use it as an excuse to persecute others.

 

@brairtrainer: Exactly! Two (or more!) consenting adults is much different than what everybody tries to add, to make it sound as because they have the same gender, they can't understand marriage or love! There's heterosexual couples that don't understand marriage or love, but they can still have it! If the perfect family has two wives or two husbands, well why not? If they're happy and in love, and the government says they can't be in love, then what is love anyway? Is anybody on love if two consenting adults can't call themselves a loving married couple?

Not that all relations straight or gay are happy and loving but yeah

[Aingeal]

I think was Delira is saying is that non-religious people don't believe in things like Heaven and Hell. Most of us can't use it as a comfort cushion because we don't believe in it. For example, I see death and I think its the end of life. Nothing else after that, you're just dead. But someone who believes in Heaven would be better with coping with death because of their belief. The idea of "being in a better place" doesn't apply to me because, in my eyes, that person or thing is just a corpse.

 

I think the assumption that religious people find comfort in the afterlife is just wrong. Just because I believe in an afterlife doesn't mean I don't find the idea absolutely terrifying. Maybe this is just because I used to be an atheist, but I find the idea of just ending up a corpse a lot more comforting.

[TikindiDragon]

To counter the things being said in regards religion and belief in said: I, as a person of faith, think two things about the lack of faith. a) that existence must be very bleak with nothing better to hope for. And that a lack of belief in any kind of consequences for your actions must in itself be a comfort - as if you can justify something to yourself you don't need to worry about wether or not any one (or thing) else may disagree with you.

 

Obviously these are just my opinions. No one is required to agree with me. And no amount of disagreeing with me is likely to make me change my mind on them.

[Ruins]

But there ARE consequences beyond what God/gods dole out- do atheists not go to prison anymore, can't the police arrest them and have them locked away?

 

And furthermore, since when does lack of belief mean lack of empathy? I mean, just because I'm an atheist* and I don't believe in Hell, doesn't mean I'll go around shooting babies in the face. That's what psychopaths do. Having no religion doesn't mean you have no conscience and no regard for other people and their feelings, and vice versa. Consider all those people in history who spent their lives being monsters then believed that, just because they repented or converted on their deathbed, meant they went to Heaven! That's an awfully Jack Chick-esque argument you just put forth there. (Actually, he did use that exact argument somewhere... I'll see if I can find the comic.)

 

*Okay, I'm a Pagan/Buddhist/idkreally, but we're talking hypothetically here.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Ruins

[Svataben]

a) that existence must be very bleak with nothing better to hope for.

b.) that a lack of belief in any kind of consequences for your actions must in itself be a comfort - as if you can justify something to yourself you don't need to worry about wether or not any one (or thing) else may disagree with you.

Wow, that was really...

 

Do try to be less offensive. While I'm not a staunch Atheist (I'm a doubting the existence of any deity, basically Agnostic), this is very offensive to me.

 

A.

I can have hope of so very many things, including some form of afterlife existence, there just isn't a god present.

Really, why would you think Atheists have no hope? Why should our lives, filled with love of family, friends and life in general, be bleak?

 

B.

This is the really bad one.

- Atheists don't have morals?

- Atheists don't have consciences?

- Atheists can't be good, emphatetic people?

- Atheists can't be law-abiding citizens?

I would counter that, if the only thing keeping you good is fear of some after-life punishment, you aren't really good or moral, you're just scared of a punisher.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Svataben

[Ruins]

 

Here's what I was talking about! :3 Basically how I saw that post...

[Riverwillows]

Back on track, I just don't get why people have to butt into other's business. My neighbor does not like roses. I love them. I have roses all around my property line, including the one I share with him. He is not abligated to prune my roses, and he can erect a hedge line on his side of the property to block him from seeing my roses. This is all fine and dandy. I do not have the right to force him to like roses, but he also does not have the right to make me take mine down.

 

I know this is simplistic, but regardless of his belief, (or mine) we can just let each other go about our business. Gay people can get married, if the law allows them to, and they can find a church for a ceremony that has no problem with it (i.e. Unitarian church).

 

Why CAN'T it be that simple? You have your belief, I have mine, yours says no, fine, don't do it. Mine says yes, so I should be allowed to. None of your business. Don't associate with me if it's that offensive. But don't take away a basic right just because YOU think it's wrong. You don't have that right.

[TikindiDragon]

Wow, that was really...

 

Do try to be less offensive. While I'm not a staunch Atheist (I'm a doubting the existence of any deity, basically Agnostic), this is very offensive to me.

 

A.

I can have hope of so very many things, including some form of afterlife existence, there just isn't a god present.

Really, why would you think Atheists have no hope? Why should our lives, filled with love of family, friends and life in general, be bleak?

 

B.

This is the really bad one.

- Atheists don't have morals?

- Atheists don't have consciences?

- Atheists can't be good, emphatetic people?

- Atheists can't be law-abiding citizens?

I would counter that, if the only thing keeping you good is fear of some after-life punishment, you aren't really good or moral, you're just scared of a punisher.

You've actually done a really good job of illustrating the point I was attempting to make with that post. That it is somehow inoffensive to tell a person of faith that their deeply held beliefs are a fantasy and a crutch, yet it is massively offensive to tell an atheist that (in your eyes) their world must be a bleak place, and the lack of a God a crutch for their own lack of morals.

 

As it happens I hold neither of the views I expressed in the previous post (while I may have a deep faith my boyfriend is very much an atheist, we live quite happily and I know that he is a fulfilled and morally upright person). But the point I was using them to make still stands - just as an atheist would find it offensive for people to make incorrect generalities (as I did in the prvious post) so a person of faith may find it deeply offensive for people to make similar totally incorrect generalities about belief.

 

Basically what I'm suggesting is that people really ought to think before they open their mouths. If you wouldn't like to be told that some aspect of your world view was a crutch, then don't go telling someone that an aspect of theirs is.

 

Edit to add: Really anyone that's been around here long enough should have read enough of my posts to realise what I was getting at in the first place.

 

Further Edit: Congratulations, Delira. You are now feeling exactly the same way any person of faith would have felt reading your original post.

Edited April 18, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[Delira]

Sorry I brought up this topic

 

However, I didn't mean just something about Heaven vs. Hell being a comfort, it was... it's hard to explain what I meant but I know what I meant, sorry.

For the record, there is some comfort in the afterlife, because if you know there is one, you know those that have gone before you are there. Ex: If your grandfather dies you can at least tell yourself that he's in Heaven.

 

To counter the things being said in regards religion and belief in said: I, as a person of faith, think two things about the lack of faith. a) that existence must be very bleak with nothing better to hope for. And b.) that a lack of belief in any kind of consequences for your actions must in itself be a comfort - as if you can justify something to yourself you don't need to worry about wether or not any one (or thing) else may disagree with you.

a) My existence isn't bleak because I don't believe in a "higher power" of sorts. I can hope for things, too, look forward to the future. What are you implying? That I have nothing to live for? I will die, and then that's it? That's something I've tried to cope with for a while now, and is a part of my depression, but then, I have just as much to hope for as you. The only difference is that you believe in an entity watching over you, and an assured afterlife.

b.) Lack of consequences? Yes, you're right. As I am not religious, I am above law and any sort of drawbacks, my actions have pros, but no cons.

I have morals! I wouldn't hurt anybody unless they hurt me, my loved ones, or somebody that couldn't defend themselves. Do you think because I don't believe in god I will treat my peers like and laugh because it's not like I can go to Hell. When I'm not putting myself down, I fancy myself a decent human being, a humane one. As in, you know, something I do because I'm (and I hate to sound like some sort of ego-stroker) nice! Things I do out of the kindest of my heart, because I like that fuzzy warm feeling you get from being charitable, because I was raised to be polite, because I seldom feel satisfaction in the pain of others, in fact, I HATE to see people suffering. My actions have consequences, and I don't need stories from the dead to tell me so. If you think I should only have morals because a book tells you to have them, then you may want to check up on your morals.

 

I didn't really want this to get into a religion thing, but TD, if that's your view on atheists, I understand you are set and we can't change your mind, but, there's a huge difference between "there is no god" and "there no consequences", and frankly, what you said was, at least to me, offensive!

 

(Sorry I hope this is the last post about religion (or lack thereof) I just wanted to put in my last few cents.)

 

Back on track, I just don't get why people have to butt into other's business. My neighbor does not like roses. I love them. I have roses all around my property line, including the one I share with him. He is not obligated to prune my roses, and he can erect a hedge line on his side of the property to block him from seeing my roses. This is all fine and dandy. I do not have the right to force him to like roses, but he also does not have the right to make me take mine down.

^That.

That is exactly how gay marriage/should be.

Just because some people do not like roses, does not mean that people should not be allowed to have roses on their property. Some people grow roses, and if a person does not like roses, they do not have to have roses on their property.

[Kestra15]

Oh hell no, that doesn't make them better at coping with reality.

Although I'd rather not get into this, it's kinda off-topic/perfect kindle for a flame war, so again, sorry for offending you, that's just what I think, and I was using it as an example.

I wasn't offended, trust me I do, however, have a habit of challenging peoples' statements and those questions were more probing than angry Sadly as ever the neutral tone and slight smile I wear when I ask such questions doesn't carry over the Interweb.

Some of us can't use it as a comfort cushion because we don't believe in it.

 

I wouldn't say non religious people are better at coping with it, more like we take reality and run at it without any armor. Religious people have a bit of a buffer and can fall back on their beliefs if they're in a tough situation. There isn't a fantasy world for me to escape to because I don't believe in them and I think the same applies for many other non religious people. Not all of them, of course, but many.

Edited, as more people identify as religious or believing in some form of afterlife than those who don't

 

And every person has armour. Everyone has a spiritual belief and has something that helps them through the day or their darkest hour. Some it is the belief of a deity watching over them. Some it is belief in friends and family. My personal belief is that there is no challenge I cannot, in time, overcome - a belief that is internally motivated and maintained. Everyone has a fantasy world, because reality is subjective to each person and every single person has a coping mechanism for life. Just because you don't believe in an afterlife or salvation doesn't mean you don't have that armour

Edited April 18, 2013 by Kestra15

[Question]

I meant most as in most nonreligious people because some nonreligious people believe different things about what comes after life. Some who associate with nonreligion do, in fact, believe in an afterlife.

~~~

~~~

I think that, when it boils down, this is like Women's Suffrage and Voting Rights for African Americans. There is a thing about equality where it doesn't matter what gender or skin color you have, nor does it matter what sexual preference you have. The government either has to go all or nothing on this. They can either give voting rights to everyone or take it away from everyone. There can't be any ifs or buts about it.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Question

[Ruins]

You've actually done a really good job of illustrating the point I was attempting to make with that post. That it is somehow inoffensive to tell a person of faith that their deeply held beliefs are a fantasy and a crutch, yet it is massively offensive to tell an atheist that (in your eyes) their world must be a bleak place, and the lack of a God a crutch for their own lack of morals.

 

As it happens I hold neither of the views I expressed in the previous post (while I may have a deep faith my boyfriend is very much an atheist, we live quite happily and I know that he is a fulfilled and morally upright person). But the point I was using them to make still stands - just as an atheist would find it offensive for people to make incorrect generalities (as I did in the prvious post) so a person of faith may find it deeply offensive for people to make similar totally incorrect generalities about belief.

 

Basically what I'm suggesting is that people really ought to think before they open their mouths. If you wouldn't like to be told that some aspect of your world view was a crutch, then don't go telling someone that an aspect of theirs is.

 

Edit to add: Really anyone that's been around here long enough should have read enough of my posts to realise what I was getting at in the first place.

 

Further Edit: Congratulations, Delira. You are now feeling exactly the same way any person of faith would have felt reading your original post.

Yes, but I also don't know you from Adam (pun fully intended) and you sounded 100% serious... Not to mention I've heard all of it before from people who really meant it.

[TikindiDragon]

Yes, but I also don't know you from Adam (pun fully intended) and you sounded 100% serious... Not to mention I've heard all of it before from people who really meant it.

One of the reasons I used it. I must admit I tend to forget that some users here may be newer, and may not have seen enough of me around to know what I'm like yet.

[Delira]

You've actually done a really good job of illustrating the point I was attempting to make with that post. That it is somehow inoffensive to tell a person of faith that their deeply held beliefs are a fantasy and a crutch, yet it is massively offensive to tell an atheist that (in your eyes) their world must be a bleak place, and the lack of a God a crutch for their own lack of morals.

 

As it happens I hold neither of the views I expressed in the previous post (while I may have a deep faith my boyfriend is very much an atheist, we live quite happily and I know that he is a fulfilled and morally upright person). But the point I was using them to make still stands - just as an atheist would find it offensive for people to make incorrect generalities (as I did in the prvious post) so a person of faith may find it deeply offensive for people to make similar totally incorrect generalities about belief.

 

Basically what I'm suggesting is that people really ought to think before they open their mouths. If you wouldn't like to be told that some aspect of your world view was a crutch, then don't go telling someone that an aspect of theirs is.

 

Edit to add: Really anyone that's been around here long enough should have read enough of my posts to realise what I was getting at in the first place.

 

Further Edit: Congratulations, Delira. You are now feeling exactly the same way any person of faith would have felt reading your original post.

My original post was an exaggeration to illustrate that people are allowed to think/feel as they choose, as long as they're not trying to actively hurt anybody, e.g. try and force (non)religion on others, or keep gays from having equal rights.

An EXAGGERATION. To mirror how some people believe that homosexuals shouldn't have children because whatever reason. As in, it was meant to seem kind of irrational, that was the point.

I'm sorry you didn't understand.

 

Why you would express views you don't believe in, is entirely different. Besides, I was not implying anything along the lines of what you did. You implied someone such as me not only had no morals, but and I quote, "nothing better to hope for" which was, in all honesty, really triggering for somebody that is recovering from severe depression. While I may be taking that a little personal, I can testify that multiple people would be increasingly distraught if somebody said they had "nothing better to hope for" if they've ever been suicidal, actually I could list names of people that would be offended by that.

Again, my point was to mirror the irrationality of a lot of the people against homosexualty. In all honesty, I'm not as upset about religion as you would think from that post.

 

And if people should think before opening their mouths, why don't you start by not saying something you know will be offensive? All you had to say was that I should rephrase what I said, and I would have. I'm awaiting confirmation for an Aspergers diagnosis, so all I can say is that I don't really understand why things are offensive/not funny/upsetting until somebody spells it out for me sometimes, and sometimes I misread what people mean, okay? If I say something that comes out offensive or just plain off, I'm not trying to. All you have to do is let me know.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Delira

[kiffren]

Could we take the discussion of religion to the religion thread? There are some interesting points being made that would probably fit better in that thread.

[Svataben]

You've actually done a really good job of illustrating the point I was attempting to make with that post. That it is somehow inoffensive to tell a person of faith that their deeply held beliefs are a fantasy and a crutch, yet it is massively offensive to tell an atheist that (in your eyes) their world must be a bleak place, and the lack of a God a crutch for their own lack of morals.

 

As it happens I hold neither of the views I expressed in the previous post (while I may have a deep faith my boyfriend is very much an atheist, we live quite happily and I know that he is a fulfilled and morally upright person). But the point I was using them to make still stands - just as an atheist would find it offensive for people to make incorrect generalities (as I did in the prvious post) so a person of faith may find it deeply offensive for people to make similar totally incorrect generalities about belief.

 

Basically what I'm suggesting is that people really ought to think before they open their mouths. If you wouldn't like to be told that some aspect of your world view was a crutch, then don't go telling someone that an aspect of theirs is.

 

Edit to add: Really anyone that's been around here long enough should have read enough of my posts to realise what I was getting at in the first place.

 

Further Edit: Congratulations, Delira. You are now feeling exactly the same way any person of faith would have felt reading your original post.

No, because I don't think it's ok to belittle religious people. I just gave you an example of your own reasoning. I don't agree with the previous description of religious people at all. That post generalized and offended, and then you did too.

 

Me, I think most religious people want to be good because it's the right thing to do, and they have empathy and values.

It doesn't matter to me if they're learning from a god, or have some genetic and societal combination thing going on, so long as they are good people.

 

I wish you would have stated your point without getting offensive yourself. Maybe next time, you think about that.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you don't hold with those views, and shall go back to liking you.

 

Edit: Kiffren, I'm so sorry. Won't happen again.

 

Edit edit: Gay rights! YAY!

Edited April 18, 2013 by Svataben

[Ruins]

On topic (I hope), would you count asexuals in this whole LGBT/gay rights thing?

 

I've heard from some people that asexuals discriminated against so we have nothing to complain about. Personally I don't believe that, what with the pressure from peers for young people to date and have sex, the pressure for all people to have kids and a partner, the stigma against virgins as 'losers' and 'ugly' (which might be another topic), people telling women and men alike that they 'need to get laid' whenever they get upset, the fact that next to nobody understands what asexuality actually means... Okay, maybe they're not all asexual-specific problems, but they do affect me and other aces. I do admit that we don't lack rights but... *shrug*

 

I guess I'm just a bit sick of being told that something's wrong with me because I hate the idea of having sex with someone: that I must have a disease or have been abused in the past. I wasn't, it's an insult to me and all my family and their friends. So some support would be nice for us, I guess- y'know help each other? Whadda I know?

[Riverwillows]

I believe a person should be what is comfortable to them, what feels "right" to them.

 

That said, no, I do not believe asexuals experience half the bigotry and predjudice that LGBT's experience.

 

No one is gonna jump you and beat you up or try to kill you for being Asexual.

No one is gonna fire you for being Asexual.

You have the right to marry another Asexual if you wish, no one will say jack about it.

No one will condemn or deny you adoption, based on your Asexuality.

 

And so on. While I think is sad that people will come down on you for not having any interest in sex, and while I can certainly understand your frustration with ignorant and dumb-jerk people....

 

Still, you are not nearly as oppressed as LGBT's are. But, I do hope that you find a way to deal with your situation so that things are not an issue anymore. I really do. No one should suffer in any way for just being who they are.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Riverwillows

[TCA]

That said, no, I do not believe asexuals experience half the bigotry and predjudice that LGBT's experience.

While this is true, that asexuals encounter a much smaller array of prejudice and such, they do have the issue that the problems they do experience are not a thing most people are aware of, while people tend to know about the things LGBTs are subject to.

 

So it's still not as bad a situation, but you do have to keep that in mind.

[Delira]

For what it counts, I had told a boy I was asexual, and he would badger me everyday about if I was still asexual, or if I finally liked a guy. "Hey, Delira, are you still asexual?" "Delira, do you like someone yet?"

I've gotten a lot of the same results, but that was the first. I wrote it off as the guy being an idiot at the time.

There is some oppression or some problem, I'm missing the word now

 

But no, it's not quite the same.

 

(But then, I have not experienced both sides, so who knows?)

[Question]

I know exactly what you are talking about, Ruins. There's some strange thing going on where people assume that younger people who are homosexual, bisexual or asexual are just confused and will "grow out of it". I've encountered this quite a bit and was met with extreme resistance when I told my mother I was asexual a few weeks ago. Even after I explained what asexual meant, she still insisted that my views on it would change. It's been a big headache ever since I met it because now she feels the need to bring it into question whenever I show her one of my friends who happens to be male.

 

The thing about Asexual verus other sexualities is that it isn't as open. Unless you go out and say you are Asexual, nobody knows. That's why there isn't much attention on it, unlike LGBTs.