Abortion

[Kestra15]

What if we went back in time and shot Hitler? Just throwing it out there while we're on the subject of impossible and pointless supposition.

[Tamagakure]

If Albert had been aborted, someone else would have been the one to discover his findings. It's not like one person holds the key to everything. There would be others after him to discover the same things.

That isn't my point. While you are right that someone else would have discovered it, we aren't debating the time-space continuum in this thread. My point was supposed to be that Einstein wouldn't have had a CHANCE to discover his theories had he been aborted.

 

The possible effects of his abortion would be truly irrelevant.

 

 

Am I clear(er) on that now? (You'd get a better idea of what I'm saying by reading my posts above.)

[Brite]

You say that the unborn can't sense pain, suffering, or the like? Personally, I'm quite certain that nobody knows for certain.

 

Because the mom totally won't feel any pain every throughout her pregnancy, with birth, or the 18 years she has to raise the child, by herself or with others.

 

 

^That said by somebody else that is a good point. And the nervous system isn't even developed, not to mention that it can turn into a parasitic mass or tumor but still alive. Do tumors feel pain?

 

And for the infamous "What if this person (insert smart/famous person) was aborted?" Well then someone else could make it to their fame. You don't know what the kid will turn out like. It could be the person to cure cancer or the next serial killer or rapist. Not all babies turn out to be a little miracle.

[Kestra15]

That isn't my point. While you are right that someone else would have discovered it, we aren't debating the time-space continuum in this thread. My point was supposed to be that Einstein wouldn't have had a CHANCE to discover his theories had he been aborted.

 

The possible effects of his abortion would be truly irrelevant.

And Hitler wouldn't have been responsible for so much death. So by your argument abortion is a good thing as it would have meant that we could have been without so much death and destruction.

[Rosedamai]

Here's a question-what if Hitler had been aborted?

 

My point is that it is not worth seeing abortions as some sort of ruining a chance for the baby to shine or whatever. Honestly, most of us have average lives-the fetus, if born, would have an average life too. Why assume it's going to be some miracle baby? And this is assuming that the society the baby is born in gives fair opportunities and doesn't discriminate the child or its parent and that the parents are willing to look after it nonetheless the fact they tried to abort it. If not, statistics show that the child would be more likely to have a harsher life than otherwise.

[Vhale]

I'm not sure some of you are debating against each other. As far as abortion goes, I think it sucks. But, legally I'm pro-choice because the idea of the police-state we'd have to become to truly outlaw it sucks more. I feel like to a point, I'm reading philisophical differences vrs legal ones.

 

But if I may interrupt with a good thing: The Ad Council is taking on accidental pregnancies with an ad campaign

CNN Article on the Ad Council

 

Warning link contains info about Sex Ed =p

 

[Layn]

Even so, my point isn't really about the parents. I just said that wrong. 

Assuming that one out of ten women does not suffer any complications from pregnancy (physical, mental, and emotional) and that one out of ten children who are put up for adoption are actually either adopted or put in non abusive foster homes, if you deny abortions to ten women, and they put all ten babies up for adoption, one of them will come out of the experience with no negative side effects from carrying the pregnancy to term. And she'll still have to pay a lot of money for the medical bills of actually having the baby (unless you're recommending that she have absolutely no medical help throughout the pregnancy, and pregnancy without any kind of medical aid is dangerous). The other nine will have some form of complications, either mental, physical, or emotional, ON TOP of said huge medical bills. Said complications will either interfere with their lives or cost even more money in terms of doctor's visits to get them taken care of. Some of them might not be possible to treat even with doctor's visits. Of the babies, one will either be adopted into a happy home, or put in a good foster home. The other nine will be put in abusive foster homes, where they will be beaten or raped or possibly starved. Given the high rate of suicide for children in foster homes, it's likely that all nine will attempt to commit suicide before age ten.

 

So torturing nine mothers, and creating nine babies to be tortured is worth one not hurt mother who still has to pay expensive medical bills and one happy baby? When those nine tortured mothers don't have to be tortured, the one mother who doesn't suffer any side effects other than paying money doesn't have to pay the money, and the nine children wouldn't be tortured if they didn't exist?

Edited November 19, 2011 by Layn

[LascielsShadow]

As crappy as foster care can be it's a lot better than no care at all because the kid wasn't even born.

So a child in foster care undergoing physical, sexual, and/or emotional abuse is better than it not existing? Got ya. I'm sure all those living, breathing kids in the system would love to hear how much crueler it would have been for them to NOT have the chance to suffer at the hands of people who were meant to take care of them.

 

This "but what if Einstein had been aborted?!" nonsense is just that. The what ifs don't feature. What if Hitler had been aborted? What if Tesla had been aborted? What if Pasteur had been aborted? They wouldn't have done the things they did, good or bad. But someone else would have come along and done those things, eventually.

 

You can't use that as a serious argument-it doesn't hold water. So what, a fetus doesn't get to experience anything. Its parent(s) do-she/they get to live without a)trying to support a child they may not be able to afford to care for, stuck with a kid she/they don't want and might abuse, or c) giving up the child for adoption and having to live with the damage to her body and her/their mind(s) from the trauma of birth and giving up the child. Sure, it gets deprived of the chance to be the next Einstein or Mozart or something. It also gets deprived of the chance to be the next Dahmer or H.H. Holmes...or Jane/Joe the average person .

 

 

 

I can understand it if the woman's life is in serious danger, but if it's just to 'save face' for getting knocked up by her boyfriend(or even for getting raped) then no I don't condone it.

Rape victims who want to abort a fetus conceived by their rape are trying to save face? I don't think so. I've heard this before, I just never understand the logic behind it. A woman who is having an abortion after being raped is NOT trying to "save face", she's getting rid of something that would be a constant reminder of what happened to her, a fetus that she did not want to conceive, something that she would most likely see as continuing the violation of her body for another ten months. There are women and girls who do make the decision to carry children conceived through rape to term and raise them or give them up for adoption, and it takes a tremendous amount of strength, which is why it's not as common as aborting. Is a woman who becomes pregnant through rape bearing the child no matter the physical, psychological or emotion harm it may do her an acceptable alternative to aborting it and saving herself the trauma?

 

 

Women and girls who have abortions after getting pregnant by a boyfriend or husband are not "saving face" either, except perhaps in certain cases. They're making a decision which is best for them. It's got nothing to do with how good they look to other people, for the most part, it's all about what the best decision for themselves and what they want with their lives at the time they become pregnant. Again, do you suggest that a woman who becomes pregnant should give birth, no matter the physical, mental and/or emotional damage it might cause, not to mention the financial position it might put her in? One does not have to be a rape victim to consider an unwanted fetus a parasite, something to be hated or feared, and for pregnancy to be a horrifying proposition. There are women who have their birth control tampered with by a partner. There are women whose birth control fails. Are they somehow "saving face" by aborting fetuses they were trying very hard not to conceive in the first place?

 

 

Also, everything Layn, ylangylang, dragon_mando, and shienvien said. I know I repeated a bit of what 's in their posts but they also said it all really well.

 

(Uh, sorry Socky. *sheepishface*)

Edited November 19, 2011 by LascielsShadow

[Obscure_Trash]

I know a point may be an upsetting one, but please no snark or sarcasm directed at others. We can all make points politely. Edited December 3, 2011 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Rosedamai]

Women and girls who have abortions after getting pregnant by a boyfriend or husband are not "saving face" either, except perhaps in certain cases. They're making a decision which is best for them. It's got nothing to do with how good they look to other people, for the most part, it's all about what the best decision for themselves and what they want with their lives at the time they become pregnant. Again, do you suggest that a woman who becomes pregnant should give birth, no matter the physical, mental and/or emotional damage it might cause, not to mention the financial position it might put her in? There are women who have their birth control tampered with by a partner. There are women whose birth control fails. Are they somehow "saving face" by aborting fetuses they were trying very hard not to conceive in the first place?

This.

 

Okay, I'll tell a personal story as well, this happened to a friend of mine. (She's okay with me telling this as long as she remains anonymous) She has recently got an abortion, but I wasn't able to help her as we live in different parts of the country. Why? Because the guy's protection failed. After learning about this she contacted her bf immediately, only to have him cut off all contacts from her and "run away"- basically, she went to the same university as he did, he took a "leave of absence", went to the army(military service in our country is mandatory, takes about two years), cut off his cell phone, the whole lot. So here she was, a pregnant girl who couldn't take care of herself. She wasn't able to get help from anyone-friends, family, etc- as she was deadly afraid that she'd be labelled as promiscuous. Why? Because I live in a rather conservative country, whose ministry of health and welfare defined single mothers until 2010 as basically, having low education and high sex drive, a ridiculous move in my opinion. Also, abortion recently was outlawed, which meant that the price skyrocketed- in case of 6 week pregnancies, it used to be about 300$, now it's about 800$. It was really hard to get the money, and as I've said, having the baby was NOT A QUESTION as

single moms are the most discriminated group after homosexuals

in all aspects of life-financially, socially, etc. I mean, she got a lecture from her ob-gyn about how she shouldn't live a promiscuous life, etc, just because she had this one-time sex with her bf and it failed.

 

It's not about just saving face, it's about your lifestyle being seriously endangered. It's not easy to even get a job at some convenience store in my country if you're a single parent. All this to supposedly save the life of some cell that, on ultrasound, was about the size of a pinprick?

 

And it's not like it's easy on the woman after she undergoes the process. My friend had to visit the clinic several times after the abortion, and all the people there would stare at her and whisper. (Yes, going to a gynecologist when you're a young woman has this penalty in our country. As I've said, it is on the conservative side. It's slowly changing, however, but the part of the country she's in is more conservative than most) She had to undergo process after process checking if her female parts weren't getting infected, that she had no cancerous cells developing in her womb, etc etc. Not to mention that I had to become by proxy a therapist for her as there aren't adequate therapy sessions for women who undergo abortion precisely because it is illegal.

 

So to sum up: Making abortion illegal has the consequences of

1. Prices for abortion skyrocketing

2. Having to undergo a lot more unsafe procedures

3. Having no support whatsoever for the woman after the procedure

4. Singles the woman out, instead of socially acknowledging the problem

among others.

 

And yes, before you ask me whether she couldn't have the baby and adopt, I told you she attends a university-her schoolmates would have noticed the pregnancy in a second if she prolonged. Not to mention her parents, who visit her on a monthly basis. Which would result in some serious social stigmas for her. This is not accounting for the fact that adoption rates in our country are horrible, and kids basically have no ways of making it here in our country, as not having parents also create a social stigma.

[ShinyTomato]

First off, I want to be aware that nothing I say should be construed as an attack. These are merely my opinions, based on medicine, science, and years working for Child Protective Services, as well as an other options counselor.

 

(It's sad that I feel like this tag is now necessary.)

 

but the fact of it is that my family was hurt by abortion. I have two relatives that I'll never know because of it.

 

Please do not take anything I say as intending to demean your experiences.

 

My dad lost his mother when he was only four years old because she got pregnant, had an(at the time illegal) abortion, and she and her unborn child died from the procedure. I don't know all the details, mostly because I was fairly small when he first told me about this, and I respect if he feels it unnecessary to tell me everything.

 

Just as a counterpoint, my father, my brother and myself lost my mother because she refused to have an abortion. What was supposed to be my twin turned into a parasitic mass that eventually killed her. She decided to go through with the pregnancy anyway, and I have to admit, I hate her for it, a lot of the time.

 

but if it's just to 'save face' for getting knocked up by her boyfriend

 

In my experience, most people have abortions as in for the best interest for the child.

 

(or even for getting raped)

 

Storytime!

 

My daughter is a rape baby. She's in school now, and struggling with this fact already. She's already asked me multiple times why I didn't abort her, and worries over whether I can really love her. That's not good for a child.

 

Neither is a rape pregnancy easy on a woman. I managed to get through, barely. Pregnancy was hell for me, even without cracked ribs, broken bones, post-traumatic flashbacks, and constant nightmares.

 

A very dear friend of mine also got pregnant through a rape. She was staunchly pro-life. She however, could not deal with the "thing" growing inside of her. She couldn't deal with the "evil thing" feeding off of her. She attempted suicide twice before she succeeded -- not because of the trauma of the rape, she had been handling it wonderfully, by all accounts, but because of the fetus inside her. She couldn't bring herself to abort, but she couldn't live with it inside of her either.

 

10 million women attempt suicide every year. 4 million because of pregnancy. In the US alone, 14,000 women committed suicide because of their pregnancies in 2009. Another 3,000 were inconclusive with suicide suspected.

 

I don't think money should be a factor either; if you 'can't afford' a baby, put it up for adoption

 

If they can't afford a baby, how are they going to afford to put a baby up for adoption?

 

As crappy as foster care can be it's a lot better than no care at all because the kid wasn't even born.

 

Not according to the kids in foster care. 1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

No I don't support those things, wittingly or not, so don't try to lump me in with those that might.

 

The point that they're making, is that when abortion is illegal in the united states, infanticide goes up 25% and child abuse goes up 46%, and that's cases that are reported.

 

I may sound biased for saying this(heck, I probably am), but from what I've seen abortion is more often than not just an 'easy way out' for girls who aren't responsible or mature enough to face the real consequences of their actions.

 

How many people who have gotten abortions have you seen then? I mean, you're basing this on the easy way out based on what you've seen, so I think it is a valid question. Are you involved in healthcare or childcare at all?

 

I honestly can't fathom someone wishing they'd been aborted

 

*raises hand*

 

I do. And again, see my statistics above. Also to add to that --Of children in chronic children's wards, or those with congenital diseases, 87% wish that they'd never been born. Of those, 2-6% under 12 attempt suicide every year for the second or more time. 14-20% attempt it for the first time.

 

The adoption and foster care systems don't work? You don't NEED parents to get by, bud.

 

A person, however, needs human contact and affection. See, Harlow's Monkeys.

 

..But, if you're so desperately poor that you're starving to death, there is no blame for giving up a child to adoption or fostering.

 

And....they afford this how? These are the current median costs.

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

How is someone starving to afford this? And yes, there happens to be a lot of blame. If you are starving, and the child is starving, and you attempt to give it up, you can be jailed for neglect.

 

Even if you go with what is stated above (that these systems aren't very effective), you're still giving the child a CHANCE to survive and live a full life.

 

A chance, yes -- but you're also playing dice with a life. You're literally giving a child p to a system, knowing that in all likelihood, they will not be adopted, and be abused physically or sexually at least once prior to reaching eighteen, knowing that the chance of them reaching eighteen is very slim.

 

For me, personally. I could never do that to a child. I have to go to over a dozen funerals every year of children who kill themselves because of the system -- not to mention the files I have of kids who went missing, or the funerals for those who die other ways. Playing the dice with a child's life, to me, is the most irresponsible thing a woman can do. Hope the kid hits 7 or 11, when the odds are stacked against it -- I'd take a complete lack of suffering over that any day of the week.

 

My key focus here is OPPORTUNITY. Dead children don't have much chance at all, and while they are highly unlikely to survive and live on successfully through foster care and/or adoption, they're more likely to make a living through that than through abortion.

 

But why is that good. Why is torture preferable to death? Why is the chance preferable to nonexistence?

 

 

Okay, hold on a second here. Let's say, hypothetically, someone gets pregnant. They know they can't care for the child -- somehow, however, they know that the fetus would prefer to be aborted. (It's magic, or G-d said, or something). Would you still be against the abortion in that case?

 

(Also completely ignoring the fact that there is no guarantee that a fetus will become a human until after the legal cut-off for abortion. Again, magic/G-d/Special hypothetical dust)

[auria]

I would just like to ask a question:

 

Since when is it anyone's business what another woman does with her body? I'm pro-choice, but I don't know that I'd ever be able to abort a fetus, because it squicks me out as much as giving birth. But it's none of my business what anyone else does because it's not my body that has to carry the fetus Who am I to decide that someone else's reasons aren't good enough? And what gives the government the right, either?

 

A human fetus is essentially a parasite, and not just while it's in the womb, though that's what I'll cover specifically. A woman must increase her calorie intake and increase her consumption of vitamins and minerals because this unborn organism in her abdomen is literally sucking the nutrients from her bloodstream via umbilical cord. They can cause medical complications, on top of the normal birthing trauma that can tear her body apart, be it the birth canal or the slicing through her abdominal muscle for a cesarean. Then, she has to pay off all of the medical bills she's accrued, while (presumably) not working so she can care for what is still (presumably) feeding on her nutrients and accumulated physical stores of food and minerals. After all that, she's got to completely change her life, her work, her relationships, and her existence to focus on the care of this child/teen.

 

Not to mention the children born of rape, the children born of addicts, the children born into extreme poverty, the children born to abusers and molesters...many of whom I can tell you from personal experiences would have welcomed the chance to have been aborted. Having been a part of the U.S.'s failing Social Services system, even if for a short time, I can tell you now that the probability of a child growing up to be a healthy, happy, and productive adult is slim to none; assuming of course they live that long.

 

But all of that aside, I find it extremely presumptuous for anyone to say what someone can and cannot do with their body, and while it might come off as sexist, I find it even more presumptuous for a male to argue against abortion when it is something they will never EVER have to physically experience. There are a great many things that men and women can both experience physically, emotionally, hormonally, spiritually, neurologically, ad nauseam. but pregnancy is not one of them. A man can be raped just as easily as a woman, but he will not have to carry a child that is the product of that rape. A man can have his contraceptive fail; but he can run away and not have to worry about pregnancy alone/single parenthood. A man can get drunk and make a bad decision, but to quote Juno he, "doesn't have the evidence under his sweater". There is not nearly as much social stigma (I don't care where you're from, there's a social stigma for unwed pregnant females pretty much everywhere, to some degree) for a guy who got a girl pregnant as there is for an unwed pregnant girl/woman. This might be because if she can't afford a paternity test, or doesn't have access, he can just say it's not his...which will then end up with her stigmatized for being "promiscuous" and for "lying" about who she conceived with.

 

And after taking all that into consideration, illegalizing abortion won't make it go away. It just makes it all the more dangerous and traumatic for those who choose to have one. It was mentioned up thread that someone's mother died as a result of complications with an illegal abortion...something that could have been avoided if a proper medical abortion had been available. History has proven that demonizing and illegalizing abortion doesn't make it go away, it just makes it more deadly. And just because it's legal doesn't mean that everyone's going to go out and get one as soon as the little pink plus sign shows up.

 

**It was just going to be $0.02, but it turned out around $5, for which I apologize. And while some of this may come across as offensive, it is genuinely NOT intended as such. I personally am offended by the idea of someone else telling me what I can and can't do with my own uterus, which is why I thought I'd go ahead and give an opinion on the subject. If anyone would like to PM me in regards to this subject, feel free.

Edited November 19, 2011 by auria

[Nureyev]

A human fetus is essentially a parasite, and not just while it's in the womb, though that's what I'll cover specifically. A woman must increase her calorie intake and increase her consumption of vitamins and minerals because this unborn organism in her abdomen is literally sucking the nutrients from her bloodstream via umbilical cord. They can cause medical complications, on top of the normal birthing trauma that can tear her body apart, be it the birth canal or the slicing through her abdominal muscle for a cesarean. Then, she has to pay off all of the medical bills she's accrued, while (presumably) not working so she can care for what is still (presumably) feeding on her nutrients and accumulated physical stores of food and minerals. After all that, she's got to completely change her life, her work, her relationships, and her existence to focus on the care of this child/teen.

 

I still mourn the little one that I lost a few years ago due to a miscarriage. I light a candle on my birthday for him or her (for some reason I feel that it was a girl...) as that was the due date.

 

I sure as hell am not grieving for a parasite.

 

Some of you should probably thank your mothers that they did not think the way you did back then.

[7Deadly$ins]

If my mother had felt I was a parasite and aborted me, then I suppose I wouldn't care one way or the other.

[ShinyTomato]

I still mourn the little one that I lost a few years ago due to a miscarriage. I light a candle on my birthday for him or her (for some reason I feel that it was a girl...) as that was the due date.

 

I sure as hell am not grieving for a parasite.

 

Some of you should probably thank your mothers that they did not think the way you did back then.

It certainly wasn't meant to offend you. Medically and scientifically, however, that's what a fetus is. "Parasite" does not mean something necessarily negative. When I was pregnant with my daughter, I referred to her as "the ickle parasite" all the time. Some people call fetuses "pups" or "babies" others choose "fetus" and "parasite."

 

Nascha, for example, got incredibly mad at me when we were pregnant with our kids because I could not refer to them as "babies." This does not make me a bad person or a bad mother. I love both my children very much. I simply couldn't call it a "baby" until I was sure it would be a person. Nascha, on the other hand, was "baby" this and "baby" that. people vary.

 

As for thanking our mothers, my mother was the one who taught me that. I am very thankful to her for that.

[Rosedamai]

I still mourn the little one that I lost a few years ago due to a miscarriage. I light a candle on my birthday for him or her (for some reason I feel that it was a girl...) as that was the due date.

 

I sure as hell am not grieving for a parasite.

 

Some of you should probably thank your mothers that they did not think the way you did back then.

First, I'm sincerely sorry for your loss. My twin was absorbed when I was a 3-month-year old fetus, my second brother died (as a baby), and I know multiple people who's parents have had miscarriages, so I understand how devastating it can be.

 

However, I think miscarriages and abortions are fundamentally different-one's a very unfortunate accident suffered by a woman who wants her baby. Another one is a woman's decision to get rid of something that she cannot afford to have. So there's an understandable difference in how people view fetuses in that situation, and I believe that's reflected in some members voice, tone, and such. Again, I'm sorry if the overall tone of this thread has upset you.

 

I just want to make it clear that we're not condoning the rampant destruction of fetuses against the woman's will. It's the woman's choice, after all-plenty of people choose to give birth as an unmarried woman, or as a woman living in a household that's desperately poor. I respect that. And I will not go around telling those women that what they are raising is a parasite, not to mention those who've gone through miscarriages.

 

From a scientific point of view, however, it's biological role is not as different from say, a tumor. Again, I'm sorry if this hurts you in any manner. The thing is, we as humans attach completely different emotional meanings to an object-what can be seen as a parasite for others is a very special reminder of love and loss. I don't personally view a fetus as a parasite per se, I have very different connotations to the word and the fetus itself. However, we're talking about a purely scientific point of view, which can be a bit harsh. Remember that scene in the matrix where Agent Smith characterizes humans as viruses due to their similar role in nature? I agree that humans are viral in that aspect. However, I don't think that humans are viruses per se-each one is unique, and have the potential to attain great beauty as well as ugliness. But that's what we are to nature, in the end, and that's what fetuses' roles are to the woman in the end.

 

As for the hypothetical solution-if my mother had been happier with me aborted, then I support her decision. It's her decision, not mine, to make.

 

I completely understand your anger, but I just wanted to comment that it's not a personal characterization, it's a scientific one. I'm repeating this to try to make you understand. I hope this has been helpful and that you did not receive a lot of emotional hurt.

 

Best wishes.

[Nureyev]

Really the only thing I came in here to say if you read my posts previous was that I think women need to not devalue a pregnancy so much as they seem to. That's mostly in cases where it's an "accident" after protected sex or a blatant fail to use birth control. I even mentioned that I disagree with laws against abortion and feel the woman needs to make her own descision, but that I just can't understand how anyone could. I'm naive, I've known that a long time. A bunch a people still jumped all over my post like I was screaming heresy. Viva le internet I guess.

 

I still think there would be a lot less need for abortion is we TOOK SOME MORE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves. Be smart, be informed, don't feel like a victim... self empowerment and all that crap.

 

But I think I am starting to see that it's just a fundamental difference in values that separates. The experiences one goes through in life will shape your opinion. We have someone here saying they will commit suicide if they get pregnant and can't abort it, while I contemplated the same thing myself when I *couldn't* get pregnant. Ah the irony. Hopefully the shrill voices of those who "know" they are right will never drown out the quieter ones giving their own opinion.

 

Anyway yeah this thread is probably bad for my sanity. Going to browse for pics of wee kittens now. *nods*

[ShinyTomato]

Really the only thing I came in here to say if you read my posts previous was that I think women need to not devalue a pregnancy so much as they seem to. That's mostly in cases where it's an "accident" after protected sex or a blatant fail to use birth control. I even mentioned that I disagree with laws against abortion and feel the woman needs to make her own descision, but that I just can't understand how anyone could. I'm naive, I've known that a long time. A bunch a people still jumped all over my post like I was screaming heresy. Viva le internet I guess.

 

I still think there would be a lot less need for abortion is we TOOK SOME MORE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves. Be smart, be informed, don't feel like a victim... self empowerment and all that crap.

 

But I think I am starting to see that it's just a fundamental difference in values that separates. The experiences one goes through in life will shape your opinion. We have someone here saying they will commit suicide if they get pregnant and can't abort it, while I contemplated the same thing myself when I *couldn't* get pregnant. Ah the irony. Hopefully the shrill voices of those who "know" they are right will never drown out the quieter ones giving their own opinion.

 

Anyway yeah this thread is probably bad for my sanity. Going to browse for pics of wee kittens now. *nods*

I understand what you're saying, Nureyev. And I think your right. Please, don't take me for someone who is out there farming for abortions. I volunteer as an other options counselor, and couldn't abort even when I was raped.

 

I think the difference is that some people will see abortion as wrong, and others see it neutrally and try to explain (sometimes a bit too vehemently) about why such a value judgement is inaccurate.

 

The thing about this though, is that it is very important to defend this, because if not, you end up getting things like the Let Women Die bill currently in the senate, and laws that criminalise miscarriage.

 

While there are safeguards in place to assure no one is forced to get an abortion, there's no way to guard against someone being forced into birth, except to protect abortion, even if you'd never get one yourself.

 

Does that make sense?

[Rosedamai]

I still think there would be a lot less need for abortion is we TOOK SOME MORE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves. Be smart, be informed, don't feel like a victim...

 

Well yes, I do think so as well, but since there are places that offer less than stellar sex ed, I do not think it can be applied to every situation, but I can still see what you're getting at.

 

Anyways, best wishes, good luck.

[Princess Artemis]

However, I think miscarriages and abortions are fundamentally different-one's a very unfortunate accident suffered by a woman who wants her baby. Another one is a woman's decision to get rid of something that she cannot afford to have.

Scientifically speaking, a miscarriage is an abortion. However, not all humans are scientists and not all scientists view their world with such cold, clinical precision.

 

On the note of "parasite": actual, honest question. I am interested in learning when mammals were declared to spend part of their life-cycle as parasites. Anyone have any links to an article or paper that describes this?

[Rosedamai]

Scientifically speaking, a miscarriage is an abortion. However, not all humans are scientists and not all scientists view their world with such cold, clinical precision.

 

On the note of "parasite": actual, honest question. I am interested in learning when mammals were declared to spend part of their life-cycle as parasites. Anyone have any links to an article or paper that describes this?

Yes, but as I've mentioned above, I think that there's should be a distinction made in the meaning of a word based on its scientific meaning and the meaning of a word that we attach emotional values onto. There's always two meanings to a word-which is why we react differently when we hear "Oh, you're bony" and "Oh, you're slender". Both describe a similar state, yet the connotations we put on it are different. I was trying to say that equating a fetus with a parasite is basically made not because the speaker has negative connotations to the fetus personally, and thus shouldn't be taken as personal.

 

Yes, a miscarriage is an abortion-yet, emotionally, we have different feelings towards a miscarriage and an abortion. Why? Because fundamentally, miscarriages are made against the woman's will, whereas most abortions (horror stories aside) are made with the woman's consent.

 

I never said that all humans are scientists, nor that scientists are cold-blooded. I believe that human emotions do play a huge part in what scientists do and so on. Scientific meaning here means that it's verifiable on a factual basis.

 

Parasite-definition

 

an animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment. The host does not benefit from the association and is often harmed by it

 

With this definition, I can safely assume that humans undergo a stage during which they have a parasitic nature.

[Princess Artemis]

Parasite-definition

 

an animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment. The host does not benefit from the association and is often harmed by it

 

With this definition, I can safely assume that humans undergo a stage during which they have a parasitic nature.

This is not what I asked for. I am not interested in opinions or a short definition, but rather a more or less accepted working hypothesis. I am interested to see if the scientific establishment has decided that mammals are parasites at any point in their life-cycle.

 

The reason I brought the scientific point of view up re: miscarriage vs. abortion is that they are fundamentally the same biologically, so cannot be said to be fundamentally different without saying in what way.

 

I was trying to say that equating a fetus with a parasite is basically made not because the speaker has negative connotations to the fetus personally, and thus shouldn't be taken as personal.

 

This is an assumption made on the intent of every speaker that they say it in the same way and none of them mean it "personally". It is often (not always) made to dehumanize and therefor distance emotionally. Yes, yes, I know, not everyone here thinks fetuses are human. Given that they are an intrinsic part of the reproductive cycle of Homo sapiens, i.e., a developing human, they are human every bit as much as a tomato seed is a Solanum lycopersicum (though the tomato seed is in a different life-cycle of the tomato than the tomato plant, it does not, therefor, gain the status of 'potential-tomato' until it reaches a point of viability as a tomato plant).

 

Therefor, given that not all intentions are 'pure' and the subject is such an emotionally charged one involving women who are often carrying and/or mourning what others are calling an animal that feeds off of them with no benefit to them, I again reiterate not all humans take a cold, clinical view of the world. Consideration is always warranted.

[WereJace]

Really the only thing I came in here to say if you read my posts previous was that I think women need to not devalue a pregnancy so much as they seem to. That's mostly in cases where it's an "accident" after protected sex or a blatant fail to use birth control. I even mentioned that I disagree with laws against abortion and feel the woman needs to make her own descision, but that I just can't understand how anyone could. I'm naive, I've known that a long time. A bunch a people still jumped all over my post like I was screaming heresy. Viva le internet I guess.

 

I still think there would be a lot less need for abortion is we TOOK SOME MORE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves. Be smart, be informed, don't feel like a victim... self empowerment and all that crap.

 

But I think I am starting to see that it's just a fundamental difference in values that separates. The experiences one goes through in life will shape your opinion. We have someone here saying they will commit suicide if they get pregnant and can't abort it, while I contemplated the same thing myself when I *couldn't* get pregnant. Ah the irony. Hopefully the shrill voices of those who "know" they are right will never drown out the quieter ones giving their own opinion.

 

Anyway yeah this thread is probably bad for my sanity. Going to browse for pics of wee kittens now. *nods*

I guess the disconnect is your insistence on taking personal responsibility. In a great number of cases, aborting a fetus is making a responsible decision based on all factors in a woman's life. Most abortions are not performed on a teenager who's panicking about her reputation.

 

Not ready for a(nother) child/timing is wrong 25%

Can’t afford a baby now 23%

Have completed my childbearing/have other people depending on me/

children are grown 19%

Don’t want to be a single mother/am having relationship problems 8%

Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child/feel too young 7%

Would interfere with education or career plans 4%

Physical problem with my health 4%

Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 3%

Was a victim of rape <0.5%

Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion <0.5%

Parents want me to have an abortion <0.5%

Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant <0.5%

Other 6%

Total 100%

 

54% of women seeking an abortion had been using protection. Of those who did not use protection, 15% believed they had a low risk of pregnancy, 15% had concerns about birth control methods, 12% had an unexpected encounter (not rape), >0.5% were raped. (More statistics are available here.)

 

Making a decision about a pregnancy is never an easy choice no matter which way a woman chooses to go. Giving birth is expensive and risky. Adopting out your child is emotionally difficult no matter if it's a private or 'system' adoption. Abortion carries serious social stigma. Raising a child is not cheap or easy.

 

Any woman should be able to make the choice that suits her best, without judgement. Every child deserves to be born into safety, caring and love. Better sex ed needs to be implemented so that people can protect themselves better and make better choices. The option to abort, adopt out or keep a child should always be available to all women, for the sake of their families and their future.

[Brite]

I keep hearing different stories of pro-lifers. What about the "pro-lifers" that say things like "Every woman that has an abortion deserves to die"

 

Oh myyy..*facepalm*

[CrippledCrow]

I keep hearing different stories of pro-lifers. What about the "pro-lifers" that say things like "Every woman that has an abortion deserves to die"

 

Oh myyy..*facepalm*

Well....first off, they are not pro-life, nor would they hand a single dime to a woman for child care if she was starving with her child. They do this because they thrive on negativity and NEED conflict in their life to feel normal. It is simple psychology really. They are caught in the roots of their upbringing to obey religion, and want others to be oppressed by it too so they don't feel like they are left out, or wasting their time in church. Hate is what motivates them, not abortion.