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I think I know what Spinxo was attempting to point out: don't dress provocatively and don't go out and get drunk or be 'stupid'.

 

The problem with that is that it makes it out as though woman are the ones to blame for being raped if they dare wear a miniskirt to a club.

 

The whole idea of 'woman shouldn't go out alone at night' or 'woman should cover up' basically means that, even if someone who says that isn't intending it to be as such, they're basically saying men are animals who can't keep it in their pants whenever a woman wearing something provocative comes near them.

 

Men (being that 97% of rape is by men, so the vast majority) should have it whipped into their brains at an early age that it is NEVER okay to attack a woman (or a man for that matter) and sexually assult them. I wonder how many less rapes there would be if all men were taught that.

Edited by skinst

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I normally try to stay away from these sorts of conversations as well, but I have to throw in there that I'm also very offended by the idea that women need to "be smart" and they'll always avoid being raped. That's just not true.

There are women who are raped by their boyfriends and husbands - yes this is possible.

There are women who are raped while wearing burkhas, so it's obviously not the provocative clothes.

There are women who are raped in their own homes - both by intruders and, more often, by people they know, whether they let them in or not.

There are women who are raped by family members.

Rape is rape is rape is rape. And the victim is never to blame for her rape - I don't care if she went outside drunk and naked, she's not to blame. If she said no, or if she didn't explicitly say yes, by having sex with her that man is raping her, and that choice to rape is solely and entirely on the man.

It's like saying that having a clerk turn their back on you in a store means it's okay to steal from the register. No, it's obviously not okay for you to steal. Even if he walks away, you still aren't supposed to steal and you should know better.

It's like saying that a man in a room with a gun is asking to be murdered. If he didn't want to be murdered, maybe he shouldn't be around so many guns! No. You should still know better than to commit murder.

Now it's true, everybody (man and woman alike) has a responsibility to themselves to try to keep themselves as safe as is reasonably possible from every kind of attack, be it rape, robbery or assault. But saying that rape is avoidable is just flat out wrong, and further saying that because rape is avoidable a woman who was raped shouldn't have the right to end a pregnancy that was forced on her is just downright insulting.

</rant>

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Even if a woman could prevent rape in certain situations (and I absolutely believe the onus is on the rapist not to rape rather than the victim to shape their life differently) there is no situation where a woman should have to have the baby, risking her physical and mental health, because she made a choice someone disagrees with.

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I think I know what Spinxo was attempting to point out: don't dress provocatively and don't go out and get drunk or be 'stupid'.

 

The problem with that is that it makes it out as though woman are the ones to blame for being raped if they dare wear a miniskirt to a club.

 

The whole idea of 'woman shouldn't go out alone at night' or 'woman should cover up' basically means that, even if someone who says that isn't intending it to be as such, they're basically saying men are animals who can't keep it in their pants whenever a woman wearing something provocative comes near them.

 

Men (being that 97% of rape is by men, so the vast majority) should have it whipped into their brains at an early age that it is NEVER okay to attack a woman (or a man for that matter) and sexually assult them. I wonder how many less rapes there would be if all men were taught that.

This, times about a million. Men are not children or animals. They are responsible for their own actions, and it is not up to the victim to "not get raped". It's up to the man to not rape. Telling people not to dress the way they want, or go where they please, or to stay away from places where they could be raped is putting the responsibility in the wrong place. You know how to prevent rape? Don't be a rapist. Teach other people not to be. It's not about a person not being in X place, it's about a rapist not being in X place with the person. If people were taught that hey, rape is wrong all the time, everywhere, in every possible case, then maybe there wouldn't be places that should supposedly be avoided.

 

I'd link my favourite Talent Show piece, but his language gets a bit...not PG13, so here are two choice bits:

...“Men”, apparently meaning them, “can’t control themselves”, and therefore women shouldn’t be surprised by being assaulted. Really? From this point of view, it’s somehow the woman’s responsibility not to get raped, rather than society’s responsibility to punish and prevent rape in the first place.

 

I Am Not My Cock. Seriously.

 

Think about what the argument that you have no control over yourself says. They are arguing that men are either animals, children, or monsters without self restraint. who must therefore be carefully controlled and protected from women. Rape after all being, in their worldview, an inevitable outcome of coming within 3 feet of censorkip.gif*.

and

Rape Victims do not ask to be raped, and no matter how carefully or irresponsibly they may behave, they do not deserve to be raped, no matter what circumstances one may feel makes a situation hazy. Which by the way don’t actually tend to, you know, exist. Got it guys? Rape victims deserve justice, sympathy and support, not your judgment or advice.

 

 

It's the same kind of thing we keep hearing all over this thread regarding unplanned pregnancy. It's always "well, she needs to make sure she doesn't get pregnant" with little mention of how maybe *he* should make sure he doesn't get her pregnant. Blaming a woman for getting pregnant through rape of any kind is even more horrible than placing blame solely upon her for getting pregnant under any other circumstance. It's even worse to imply that if a woman "gets herself raped" and becomes pregnant, she somehow has less right to an abortion than someone who apparently did a satisfactory job of avoiding being raped and impregnated but was unsuccessful, or a woman who became pregnant under whichever other circumstance you want to choose. Pregnant is pregnant, and if someone doesn't want to be, it does not matter one tiny bit why, or how she came to be pregnant. All women have an equal right to choose not to continue a pregnancy if it is unwanted, whether they are somehow 'at fault' for it or are deemed to have taken sufficient precautions to be excused from culpability.

Edited by LascielsShadow

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The typical woman gets hit on plenty when she's dressed nicely at work, and she doesn't always get nice dinner invitations -- she also gets creepers trying to show her pictures of their penis on their phone (as in my case, and I wear baggy jeans, a tank top, boots and a baseball cap, usually).

 

I just think all ladies might wanna invest in some self defense classes. ;D And, of course, be allowed to get an abortion if they want, raped or not.

 

Not sure what I wish we could do to the fools who breed indiscriminately, though. They're just making the abortion case difficult for everyone.

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Not wishing to insult anyone, but I agree with he chorus here. There is no way to guarantee you won't be raped. You can think you're in the safest place in the world, and it can happen.

 

A rape pregnancy is hard, especially if you were brutalised as much as I was. However, as with all pregnancies, it should be up to the woman to make the choice she feels would be best for her potential offspring.

 

Still though, people, I think the point is made and let's not jump down people's throat.

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Let's not forget men being raped. Don't laugh, it can be serious. My guy friend was raped by his mother's drunk friend when he was thirteen. She actually got impregnated by him and since she was a bit on the psycho side, she was going to make it look like it was his fault, using his future kid as evidence. Luckily, she miscarried and tests concluded that it WAS his kid and not some other mans she could've slept with.

 

Anyways, he lives with his father now and his mother was jailed so...

Just pointing out that you don't have to be female to be a victim. I only know one pro-lifer that is okay with the morning after pill when it comes to rape. I don't see how pro-birthers only see black and white. They usually don't until something happens to them. I use to be pro-life only because my old religious friends were until I heard my sister tell me that her friend was raped by her father and became pregnant. This is when common sense finally knocked me upside the head.

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Joining the chorus here on that "avoiding" rape isn't really that possible.

 

I wear men's T-shirts two sizes too big, baggy jeans, sneakers, usually a hat, no makeup, an oversized jacket, and even gloves and I still have guys try to force themselves on me and back me into corners at school. Even in front of teachers. If it weren't for almost ten years of martial arts training I'd never get out of those situations.

 

Nine and a half years of martial arts. And I have to use it inside school buildings. Anyone with less or none wouldn't be as lucky because even with other people in the hall, no one's called security to protect me even once. And the fact I do defend myself has the other girls calling me horrid names for daring to act unfeminine.

 

The reason the guys go after me? Because of two things I cannot control: being female and naturally having a Marilyn Monroe figure that even baggy men's clothing can't hide. And I'm ashamed I have it because of what I'm subjected to on a regular basis for it.

 

If a girl can even get raped at school--where she's supposed to be safe--how on earth is she supposed to be able to get an education to support herself when she gets pregnant and needs either the funds to care for the kid or abort if she's supposed to avoid everywhere she might end up in that situation?

Edited by dragon_mando

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My two cents: first, plenty of people are raped in their homes. Would houses be an unsafe place then? Second, this sounds very similar to the "you caused it" usually directed at women-variations of "she was wearing provocatively" "she was out late at night"etc etc. I would like to make it very clear here that those things are not what causes rapes (otherwise young children and the elderly won't be targets of rape) but the man's attitude itself. If a man is properly brought up and taught that rape is not justifiable by any reason, he won't do it. Besides, the argument that women should "avoid" such places makes it sound like men who frequent such places are nothing more than hypersexualized macho beasts, and they're not.

 

What you don't seem to understand here is that women can take all the precautions people like you give out and still can get raped. There's no foolproof way to avoid that. It's a bit like blaming a victim of a terrorist attack for being not careful.

 

Not only that, but it is also an unfair restriction on women-they should have the choices to do whatever they want without such dire results such as rapes. I don't go out on the streets fearing that someone might murder me any time, why should women go out on the streets afraid of being raped all the time if they don't fit certain requirements?

 

Btw- insultive isn't really a word. In those situations, you use the word "insulting". No offense meant by this statement.

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My two cents: first, plenty of people are raped in their homes. Would houses be an unsafe place then? Second, this sounds very similar to the "you caused it" usually directed at women-variations of "she was wearing provocatively" "she was out late at night"etc etc. I would like to make it very clear here that those things are not what causes rapes (otherwise young children and the elderly won't be targets of rape) but the man's attitude itself. If a man is properly brought up and taught that rape is not justifiable by any reason, he won't do it. Besides, the argument that women should "avoid" such places makes it sound like men who frequent such places are nothing more than hypersexualized macho beasts, and they're not.

 

What you don't seem to understand here is that women can take all the precautions people like you give out and still can get raped. There's no foolproof way to avoid that. It's a bit like blaming a victim of a terrorist attack for being not careful.

 

Not only that, but it is also an unfair restriction on women-they should have the choices to do whatever they want without such dire results such as rapes. I don't go out on the streets fearing that someone might murder me any time, why should women go out on the streets afraid of being raped all the time if they don't fit certain requirements?

 

Btw- insultive isn't really a word. In those situations, you use the word "insulting". No offense meant by this statement.

it sometimes seems like the only people the meadia targets with the subject of rape is females. i have never seen much on males being raped and never seen anything that tells males what to do to prevent rape its only for females.

 

my point is that i don't like how only how i've seen females getting told how to prevent rape when its not there fault no one asks to be raped for what they want to do.

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it sometimes seems like the only people the meadia targets with the subject of rape is females. i have never seen much on males being raped and never seen anything that tells males what to do to prevent rape its only for females.

 

my point is that i don't like how only how i've seen females getting told how to prevent rape when its not there fault no one asks to be raped for what they want to do.

Sexual assault on men is poorly dealt with and poorly understood for a variety of reasons. A man is expected to be able to 'fight back' and if he doesn't or is incapacitated, he is often unfairly judged as weak or pathetic. Male on male sexual assault is often treated humorously (ie. 'prison censorkip.gif*' comments), in spite of its damaging physical and psychological effects. Men who are assaulted by women are very frequently assumed to have 'wanted it' and if they state otherwise are mocked and told they are not men, non-masculine, and so on. Sometimes they are even congratulated for their 'conquest'.

 

However, since this is the abortion thread, I'm going to stop crazily derailing here. On-point, rape is just one of many perfectly valid reasons why a woman should be able to easily, affordably and quickly get an abortion.

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That seemed pretty insultive to me, but I'm going away from this topic for a while. There's no need to respond.

Oh no, you can't just take the easy way out on this one.

 

Hearing the 'women should avoid getting raped' argument always makes me SO mad, but I'll try to ignore how insulting it is to women because plenty of people have already pointed that out.

 

Instead I'll try to explain what Marie19R undoubtedly meant when she said your posts show a complete lack of understanding of rape. I also have the feeling you could use to be educated a bit in that aspect.

 

Rape, most often, is not about men being so attracted to someone they can't control themselves (the few men that this would apply to need to be locked up as a danger to society, just like psychopats who can't control themselves when it comes to killing people...).

Sometimes, it is about men not wanting to control themselves, in which case I think it is wrong to put the responsibility with the woman, don't you?

But in most cases, it has nothing to do with sexual attraction or getting sexual satisfaction at all. It has to do with the feeling of power over the other person when you subject them to something they don't want to do.

This is why it is not only very attractive, outgoing women that get raped, but also plain, shy women, or even ugly old ladies. (and @xhunter, yes, also men, but as they can't get pregnant that isn't really the point in this thread, though I won't deny it is an issue worth discussing). Victims are not chosen because they are attractive, but because they are available, and very often because the rapist thinks there's not much chance of being found out, because they already have some form of power over their victim.

 

As such, rape is not something that can easily be avoided.

Edited by Fengari

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xd.png

Ask any parents that have teens in the household.

i think any parent that gives birth would say the same thing unless they have constant amnesia. i think my mom has amnesia she don't what to call having children as a parasitic thing. xd.png

 

 

back to the subject of abortion i was looking around at prices for abortions and types of them for one of my storys and i found this odd site for a early abortion pill http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-to...ortion-4354.asp though that is not what makes me say WFT its the last box that says [if you are under 18, your state may require one or both of your parents to give permission for your abortion or be told of your decision prior to the abortion. However, in most states you can ask a judge to excuse you from these requirements. Learn more about parental consent for abortion.] i don't think i like that. Why would a parent what there 17 year old or younger child not to have a abortion if the child doesn't want the fetus, and why does the state care there always about human health though they don't what to do much to support the health unless there payed?

Edited by xhunter

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back to the subject of abortion i was looking around at prices for abortions and types of them for one of my storys and i found this odd site for a early abortion pill http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-to...ortion-4354.asp though that is not what makes me say WFT its the last box that says [if you are under 18, your state may require one or both of your parents to give permission for your abortion or be told of your decision prior to the abortion. However, in most states you can ask a judge to excuse you from these requirements. Learn more about parental consent for abortion.] i don't think i like that. Why would a parent what there 17 year old or younger child not to have a abortion if the child doesn't want the fetus, and why does the state care there always about human health though they don't what to do much to support the health unless there payed?

I don't think it's that strange. It is done to make sure a girl talks about the pregnancy and the decision to abort with her parents. I think that's important, because it isn't a decision that should be taken lightly and who better to help with that than your parents (in most cases)? A lot of girls might take the decision to abort without talking to their parents, afraid of getting into (more) trouble for getting pregnant, if that restriction was not in place. And for those cases where the girl would have good reasons not to talk to her parents, there is the option of being excused by a judge.

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Why would a parent what there 17 year old or younger child not to have a abortion if the child doesn't want the fetus, and why does the state care there always about human health though they don't what to do much to support the health unless there payed?

 

A lot of parents that I've seen who get angry at clinics or after finding out their child had an abortion, are angry because they think that the child is punishment and such. One parent even told me that forcing her child to have the baby should have been HER decision, the same as if the child had been younger and in time out.

 

Other parents would brand their daughters as any number of mean and hateful names, the least of which would be murderer. I had a friend through a rape survivors group who was 14, and her mother refused to allow her to get an abortion when the laws were in flux.

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I agree with abortions in some cases .. rape, the health of the mother, the health of the baby. Sometimes the protection you are using fails.

 

What I can not abide by is stupidity from people having sex and have no regard to getting pregnant. If you are going to have sex, know what the heck you are doing. Abortion is not good for ones body nor ones mind.

 

Anyone that says a female should be able to get an abortion if she wants to just because, well I will not finsh this staement. I know I am sick of paying for ignorant mistakes by others just because then.

 

For those that do not have abortions and have to have government assistance, you get pregnant a second time, you get your tubes tied, and if this is the males second baby, he gets sniped to.

 

I wanted more children but my hubby and I knew we could only really provide for the ones we had. I work, and I get sick of paying for those who are on government assistance because they are to lazy or do not care. People need to wake up and start being more responsible. Let me go and ask for government assistance and I would be told NO if I really needed it, not for things like abortion though.

 

 

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I agree with abortions in some cases .. rape, the health of the mother, the health of the baby. Sometimes the protection you are using fails.

 

What I can not abide by is stupidity from people having sex and have no regard to getting pregnant. If you are going to have sex, know what the heck you are doing. Abortion is not good for ones body nor ones mind.

 

Anyone that says a female should be able to get an abortion if she wants to just because, well I will not finsh this staement. I know I am sick of paying for ignorant mistakes by others just because then.

 

For those that do not have abortions and have to have government assistance, you get pregnant a second time, you get your tubes tied, and if this is the males second baby, he gets sniped to.

 

I wanted more children but my hubby and I knew we could only really provide for the ones we had. I work, and I get sick of paying for those who are on government assistance because they are to lazy or do not care. People need to wake up and start being more responsible. Let me go and ask for government assistance and I would be told NO if I really needed it, not for things like abortion though.

So...you want poor people to be sterilized.

 

You want women who do not want/cannot support a child to give birth anyway so their child can be put into the foster system, so you can pay for that childs upbringing (foster system being funded by the government and all).

 

...alrighty then.

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Abortion is not good for ones body nor ones mind.

Neither is pregnancy. Pregnancy and childbirth wreaks havoc on the body and the hormonal changes and changes to your body also affect your emotional state and self-esteem. Just ask anyone who's actually been pregnant, or has suffered from post-partum depression, or had to have a C-section, or gained 200 pounds after their pregnancy and been unable to lose it without surgery like my mother.

 

Edit: Just saw that you have a child. You know this, then. Abortion is way less of a strain on one's body and mind than a pregnancy, especially when someone doesn't want/can't handle a baby.

Edited by AngelKitty

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Neither is pregnancy. Pregnancy and childbirth wreaks havoc on the body and the hormonal changes and changes to your body also affect your emotional state and self-esteem. Just ask anyone who's actually been pregnant, or has suffered from post-partum depression, or had to have a C-section, or gained 200 pounds after their pregnancy and been unable to lose it without surgery like my mother.

And equally you can ask those who have become happier with a pregnancy, found a fulfillment of life with a child, have managed to lose the weight/never gain it to begin with, or even have retained some weight but don't care.

 

(This is not me saying every pregnant woman should come to full term regardless. I'm simply pointing out that pregnancy is not always a horror story, and like most things in life it can have both positive and negative influences).

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And equally you can ask those who have become happier with a pregnancy, found a fulfillment of life with a child, have managed to lose the weight/never gain it to begin with, or even have retained some weight but don't care.

 

(This is not me saying every pregnant woman should come to full term regardless. I'm simply pointing out that pregnancy is not always a horror story, and like most things in life it can have both positive and negative influences).

 

Likewise, you can ask women who have had an abortion and don't regret it, and would rather go through another abortion than have to deal with what they would consider Hell. Pregnancy may not always be a horror story, but having a baby growing inside of you for nine months, stretching your belly and cramping your organs among other things fetuses do, is more of a strain on the body, whether your pregnancy is difficult and horrific or not, than having an abortion at the time when most abortions occur.

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Oh no, you can't just take the easy way out on this one.

 

Hearing the 'women should avoid getting raped' argument always makes me SO mad, but I'll try to ignore how insulting it is to women because plenty of people have already pointed that out.

 

Instead I'll try to explain what Marie19R undoubtedly meant when she said your posts show a complete lack of understanding of rape. I also have the feeling you could use to be educated a bit in that aspect.

 

Rape, most often, is not about men being so attracted to someone they can't control themselves (the few men that this would apply to need to be locked up as a danger to society, just like psychopats who can't control themselves when it comes to killing people...).

Sometimes, it is about men not wanting to control themselves, in which case I think it is wrong to put the responsibility with the woman, don't you?

But in most cases, it has nothing to do with sexual attraction or getting sexual satisfaction at all. It has to do with the feeling of power over the other person when you subject them to something they don't want to do.

This is why it is not only very attractive, outgoing women that get raped, but also plain, shy women, or even ugly old ladies. (and @xhunter, yes, also men, but as they can't get pregnant that isn't really the point in this thread, though I won't deny it is an issue worth discussing). Victims are not chosen because they are attractive, but because they are available, and very often because the rapist thinks there's not much chance of being found out, because they already have some form of power over their victim.

 

As such, rape is not something that can easily be avoided.

For the last time, I was not trying to blame the victims for their own rape and I was definately not trying to get anyone riled up. I left the conversation because I could see that I had opened up a can of worms between me and another person, not because I'm a coward and want to continue uneducated about the topic. I appreciate that some of you are trying to help me understand what was said, but the way the poster had posted his/her comment about my post seemed a bit insulting to me because I'm trying to get educated and I know that I'm not trying to upset anyone and it seems like every time I post something on a site people judge me based on what I said and get mad over something that I had posted. The only thing I was trying to state was what was said by Skinst.

Edited by Spinxo

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So...you want poor people to be sterilized.

 

You want women who do not want/cannot support a child to give birth anyway so their child can be put into the foster system, so you can pay for that childs upbringing (foster system being funded by the government and all). 

 

...alrighty then.

 

Reread my post, I have it all covered, especially the first paragraph right below. I am sick of people on welfare, who do not want to help themselves. When you have SEX, please know what you are doing so you do not get ACCIDENTLY pregnant.

 

No, I do not want to pay for people having babies, there are enough on there already. Yes, if people can not be responsible, I guess we could do it for them. They get steralized ...EXACTLY, biggrin.gif

 

The young teenagers of today want to play grown up and they think they know what they are doing having sex, well, the young people do not know what you are doing because if they did, we would not have all these teenager pregnancies like we do.

 

Now reread my post below

 

I agree with abortions in some cases .. rape, the health of the mother, the health of the baby. Sometimes the protection you are using fails.

 

What I can not abide by is stupidity from people having sex and have no regard to getting pregnant. If you are going to have sex, know what the heck you are doing. Abortion is not good for ones body nor ones mind.

 

Anyone that says a female should be able to get an abortion if she wants to just because, well I will not finsh this statement. I know I am sick of paying for ignorant mistakes by others just because then.

 

For those that do not have abortions and have to have government assistance, you get pregnant a second time, you get your tubes tied, and if this is the males second baby, he gets sniped to.

 

I wanted more children but my hubby and I knew we could only really provide for the ones we had. I work, and I get sick of paying for those who are on government assistance because they are to lazy or do not care. People need to wake up and start being more responsible. Let me go and ask for government assistance and I would be told NO if I really needed it, not for things like abortion though.

Edited by ~Kat~

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Kat, perhaps this is just me, as someone who is multilingual, but while I do understand where you're going with the post, it's jarring in a way that makes me second guess myself. So, fact time!

 

A. Only 10% of women who have abortions knew or understood that they were not protected at the time.

 

B. Between 25-30% of abortions are caused by fraud -- a partner lying about sterility or tampering with birth control.

 

C. It is illegal to be sterilized against your will in the US.

 

D. it is also illegal to be sterilized in most states, unless you are over 35 and already have two children, unless there is a pressing health reason, despite not wanting to have children.

 

E. The majority of abortions are those well above the poverty line.

 

F. Not everyone can use certain kinds of birth control for various health or moral reasons and NFP is unreliable.

 

G. Abstinence sex-ed doesn't teach how to avoid pregnancy beyond "don't do it." We need to fix the education system.

 

/Sits back in fear of warn.

Edited by ShinyTomato

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Kat, perhaps this is just me, as someone who is multilingual, but while I do understand where you're going with the post, it's jarring in a way that makes me second guess myself. So, fact time!

 

A. Only 10% of women who have abortions knew or understood that they were not protected at the time.

 

B. Between 25-30% of abortions are caused by fraud -- a partner lying about sterility or tampering with birth control.

 

C. It is illegal to be sterilized against your will in the US.

 

D. it is also illegal to be sterilized in most states, unless you are over 35 and already have two children, unless there is a pressing health reason, despite not wanting to have children.

 

E. The majority of abortions are those well above the poverty line.

 

F. Not everyone can use certain kinds of birth control for various health or moral reasons and NFP is unreliable.

 

G. Abstinence sex-ed doesn't teach how to avoid pregnancy beyond "don't do it." We need to fix the education system.

 

/Sits back in fear of warn.

Sex-ed barely teaches about what your choices are if you do end up pregnant. The people told my class about abortion but here's all they said, "You can chose the abort, killing the child. Most mothers wouldn't do this." That's ALL they said. The rest was the whole "get married and get a job" stuff. No where near enough info.

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The only thing I was trying to state was what was said by Skinst. Some people go out and do stupid things without a concern about what might happen and I was only trying to point out that people like that should not be acting so stupid and take a little more caution with their actions. That's what I meant when I said that in some situations it can be better avoided. Not all of the people who are raped are responsible.

You may want to re-read my post.

 

Putting the blame on the woman (in this situation) because she did something 'irresponsible' is still no excuse for a rape.

 

There is NEVER an excuse to rape someone. There is NEVER a reason to rape someone. And most of all? The victim should NEVER EVER be blamed for being raped, no matter what she was doing or what she was wearing.

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