Abortion

[Nureyev]

what others are calling an animal that feeds off of them with no benefit to them,

The way I see it, a fetus *could* be *called* a parasite due to the literal definition of the word. If you wanted to think of it that way. But it's not.

 

I think your tomato analogy is interesting. A fetus, or maybe better called a zygote if you wish, is not a parasite in my view. Emotions aside, as defined, a parasite lives off a host with no benefit to the host itself. A zygote of any mammal carries with it the most significant benefit of all: the benefit of passing its parents' genes on to the next generation. THAT is, biologically speaking, the ultimate goal of every creature. The meaning of life is quite simple and boring....to perpetuate the existance of your kind.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Nureyev

[Annilalate]

I am at heart a pro-choicer. Though I feel that there are some cases when the woman SHOULD keep the child, most of the time, I think they should decide what they want to do.

 

One thing I'd like is also for the man who is responsible (if he's a part of her life) got a little, Iunno, say in the matter. Yes. I know. It's your body. I won't ever be able to/experience pregnancy. But, if I'm in a relationship, and I got her pregnant, I would like to have SOME say in the life of my child. Now, I'm not saying that what I say goes, but a discussion would be nice. And it'd be even better if we could come to an agreement.

 

(Not all people have this view, I know. But a lot of the people I've seen have the view that men should get no say.)

[Layn]

I am at heart a pro-choicer. Though I feel that there are some cases when the woman SHOULD keep the child, most of the time, I think they should decide what they want to do.

 

One thing I'd like is also for the man who is responsible (if he's a part of her life) got a little, Iunno, say in the matter. Yes. I know. It's your body. I won't ever be able to/experience pregnancy. But, if I'm in a relationship, and I got her pregnant, I would like to have SOME say in the life of my child. Now, I'm not saying that what I say goes, but a discussion would be nice. And it'd be even better if we could come to an agreement.

 

(Not all people have this view, I know. But a lot of the people I've seen have the view that men should get no say.)

I have a problem with this in cases where the woman does not want the child. Does not want the physical, mental, and emotional trauma of being pregnant. And the father wants the child, and pressures her into having it "so he can take care of it and she doesn't need to see it after it's born"

[Zipporah]

I am at heart a pro-choicer. Though I feel that there are some cases when the woman SHOULD keep the child, most of the time, I think they should decide what they want to do.

 

One thing I'd like is also for the man who is responsible (if he's a part of her life) got a little, Iunno, say in the matter. Yes. I know. It's your body. I won't ever be able to/experience pregnancy. But, if I'm in a relationship, and I got her pregnant, I would like to have SOME say in the life of my child. Now, I'm not saying that what I say goes, but a discussion would be nice. And it'd be even better if we could come to an agreement.

 

(Not all people have this view, I know. But a lot of the people I've seen have the view that men should get no say.)

I agree with you. I would want to abort if I got pregnant but I would run straight to my partner to talk to him before I did anything. I would feel guilty otherwise. Of course, ideally, the couple would have already decided what they would do if the woman got pregnant.

[WereJace]

I am at heart a pro-choicer. Though I feel that there are some cases when the woman SHOULD keep the child, most of the time, I think they should decide what they want to do.

 

One thing I'd like is also for the man who is responsible (if he's a part of her life) got a little, Iunno, say in the matter. Yes. I know. It's your body. I won't ever be able to/experience pregnancy. But, if I'm in a relationship, and I got her pregnant, I would like to have SOME say in the life of my child. Now, I'm not saying that what I say goes, but a discussion would be nice. And it'd be even better if we could come to an agreement.

 

(Not all people have this view, I know. But a lot of the people I've seen have the view that men should get no say.)

I would say that in all cases where the woman's relationship with the father is stable and safe enough that they can discuss a pregnancy, they should make this decision together. That is the respectful thing to do. However, the final decision should be hers, and her partner should respect that. Hopefully some groundwork for that conversation has been laid in advance and they are comfortable talking it over.

 

She should not, however, be obligated to do so. This is a knotty, painful situation for a couple to face and it can have some very bad outcomes. Physical and emotional abuse of either partner can be sparked by a pregnancy. I've talked to some women and men dealing with some pretty heavy emotional blackmail under these circumstances. If she wishes to have an abortion without telling him, she should be able to.

[DragonRider5624]

I am pro-life, however I am not the kind of person who would force their beliefs on someone, as that is ignorant. I think people need to take the mother's situation into account. "Will it be a dangerous pregnancy? Is the mother's financial situation secure? But I think that yes, it is a woman's body, and ultimately HER choice, however, I agree with Annilalate as well. The fact is that it's not just the woman's child. It's also her partners. Personally, if the partner wanted the child, even if the mother doesn't he should definitively have a say. Maybe he should just get full custody.

Edited November 19, 2011 by DragonRider5624

[TheDarkCynder]

I am pro-life, however I am not the kind of person who would force their beliefs on someone, as that is ignorant. I think people need to take the mother's situation into account. "Will it be a dangerous pregnancy? Is the mother's financial situation secure? But I think that yes, it is a woman's body, and ultimately HER choice, however, I agree with Annilalate as well. The fact is that it's not just the woman's child. It's also her partners. Personally, if the partner wanted the child, even if the mother doesn't he should definitively have a say. Maybe he should just get full custody.

What if the mother is afraid to give birth? Or even has a phobia of giving birth? How much weight should the spouse's voice carry then?

[WereJace]

I am pro-life, however I am not the kind of person who would force their beliefs on someone, as that is ignorant. I think people need to take the mother's situation into account. "Will it be a dangerous pregnancy? Is the mother's financial situation secure? But I think that yes, it is a woman's body, and ultimately HER choice, however, I agree with Annilalate as well. The fact is that it's not just the woman's child. It's also her partners. Personally, if the partner wanted the child, even if the mother doesn't he should definitively have a say. Maybe he should just get full custody.

Should he be able to force her to give their child up for adoption? Should he be able to force her to abort a fetus she wishes to carry to term?

[Trope]

I am pro-life, however I am not the kind of person who would force their beliefs on someone, as that is ignorant. I think people need to take the mother's situation into account. "Will it be a dangerous pregnancy? Is the mother's financial situation secure? But I think that yes, it is a woman's body, and ultimately HER choice, however, I agree with Annilalate as well. The fact is that it's not just the woman's child. It's also her partners. Personally, if the partner wanted the child, even if the mother doesn't he should definitively have a say. Maybe he should just get full custody.

I am deadly afraid of pregnancy. I can't stand kids - at all. You can probably already imagine the panic that I would be in if I'd get pregnant. Heck, my one pregnancy scare had me making suicide plans. I was lucky my mother intervened and got me a pregnancy test which turned out negative.

 

As much as I love my current boyfriend, if I'd get pregnant I would get an abortion. No discussion. I've told him this at the beginning of our relationship in /very/ clear words. He was okay with it back then. So, since he agreed with my terms, we got physical. Now, even if he'd change his mind, even if he begged me to keep it, I would abort. No full custody, as I'm not carrying that thing to term. I'd rather jump under a train.

[Princess Artemis]

The way I see it, a fetus *could* be *called* a parasite due to the literal definition of the word. If you wanted to think of it that way. But it's not.

 

I think your tomato analogy is interesting. A fetus, or maybe better called a zygote if you wish, is not a parasite in my view. Emotions aside, as defined, a parasite lives off a host with no benefit to the host itself. A zygote of any mammal carries with it the most significant benefit of all: the benefit of passing its parents' genes on to the next generation. THAT is, biologically speaking, the ultimate goal of every creature. The meaning of life is quite simple and boring....to perpetuate the existance of your kind.

This is one reason I'm really very interested to find out if there is any literature which declares mammals as parasites at any point in their life-cycle. I agree with you, biologically speaking, carrying on genetics and furthering the species is a tremendous benefit. I'm not a biologist, so I don't know if that's enough to rule out parasitism on one's own mother in mammals, hence my curiosity.

 

I do see, in terms of debate-framing, the use of 'parasite', so I am curious on those grounds as well.

[skinst]

I still mourn the little one that I lost a few years ago due to a miscarriage. I light a candle on my birthday for him or her (for some reason I feel that it was a girl...) as that was the due date.

 

I sure as hell am not grieving for a parasite.

I posted this back on page 9, and I believe it applies:

 

The fact is is a fetus is scientifically classified as a parasite. That's the type of organism it is. It's only a precious little baby to those who choose to see it that way.

 

You choose to see your miscarried fetus as a baby worthy of mourning, and that is just fine and dandy. But scientifically, what you miscarried was in fact a fetus, which scientifically is classified as a parasite.

 

What you emotionally tie to something doesn't make it scientific fact.

 

Some of you should probably thank your mothers that they did not think the way you did back then.

 

I find this a really stupid arguement for the pro-birth side. If my mother had of aborted me, then I would trust that it was for my own good that she did. The last thing I would have wanted, had I been able to think as a fetus, was to be raised in an unstable home, or thrown into the adoption system.

[Nureyev]

You choose to see your miscarried fetus as a baby worthy of mourning, and that is just fine and dandy. But scientifically, what you miscarried was in fact a fetus, which scientifically is classified as a parasite.

 

Not only are you borderline rude and unnecessarily insensitive but "scientifically is classified as a parasite" ? What type of science are you talking about? References please? Absolute nonsense.

 

I realize I may be feeding a troll here but I really do wonder where this scientific classification can be found......

[skinst]

So me stating something scientific makes me a troll in your eyes? Lol. I've been on this forum for 3 years now. If I were a troll, I'd be gone by now, don't you think?

 

As for references, here you go:

 

par·a·site/ˈparəˌsīt/

Noun:

An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return.

 

Which is exactly what a fetus does.

 

Also, you're reading my post as insensitive was rather interesting. I was merely pointing out that you should seperate your emotional state from scientific facts. When people in this thread say a fetus is not a baby, scientifically they're right.

 

So again:

 

The fact is is a fetus is scientifically classified as a parasite. That's the type of organism it is. It's only a precious little baby to those who choose to see it that way.

[Princess Artemis]

The dictionary is not a scientific reference. Honestly curious still, where is there a reference for scientists deeming mammals spending part of their life-cycle as parasites?

[skinst]

True, but where does the dictionary get its facts from?

[Princess Artemis]

True, but where does the dictionary get its facts from?

For a complex matter a dictionary which is not a scientific one may simplify the matter somewhat.

 

A dictionary does not contain facts, it contains definitions. I love the dictionary myself very much, but in a matter like this, it does require a scientific reference rather than a generalized definition that typically holds true.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Princess Artemis

[Obscure_Trash]

Reminder to respect others' opinions and use the report button when necessary. This means no insulting others or calling them names. Appropriate warns have been given.

[skinst]

Alrighty, well based on a quick search:

 

http://www.debate.org/debates/the-human-fe...g-to-science/1/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_tolerance_in_pregnancy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophoblast

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/F%C5%93tus

[Princess Artemis]

None of those are scientific references. They seem to suggest a possibility, but there are tremendous biological benefits to the host to bear, carry to term, then, upon the birth, to feed, clothe, and sacrifice for the little one who would still fit some liberal stretching of the term 'parasite'.

 

Are those biological benefits not considered? That's why I wish a scientific reference that states, yea or nay, if mammals spend part of their life-cycle as parasites.

[Layn]

Biological benefits such as trauma and morning sickness?

[Rosedamai]

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathp...enta/index.html

 

There.

[skinst]

None of those are scientific references. They seem to suggest a possibility, but there are tremendous biological benefits to the host to bear, carry to term, then, upon the birth, to feed, clothe, and sacrifice for the little one who would still fit some liberal stretching of the term 'parasite'.

 

Are those biological benefits not considered? That's why I wish a scientific reference that states, yea or nay, if mammals spend part of their life-cycle as parasites.

Dictionary references have sufficed in the past, and I have provided research that has cited scientific sources. If that is not enough for you, you're more than welcome to search for some too.

[Princess Artemis]

Biological benefits such as trauma and morning sickness?

Perpetuation of the species is pretty huge and I am not sure how many dogs and cats get morning sickness or feel particularly traumatized. Humans are not the only mammals.

 

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathp...enta/index.html

 

There.

 

Thank you.

[Rosedamai]

What biological benefits? No, I mean it.

 

Women not only suffer trauma and morning sickness, they can also lower your vision (http://www.babycenter.com/0_vision-changes-during-pregnancy_1456567.bc), there's a whole bunch of illnesses and infections women are more susceptible to during pregnancy (http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-illness-and-infections), and so on.

[Layn]

Perpetuation of the species is pretty huge and I am not sure how many dogs and cats get morning sickness or feel particularly traumatized. Humans are not the only mammals.

Wait... one baby is the difference between the human race dying out and surviving? I don't understand how perpetuation of the human race is any kind of argument against abortion, when the human race is not in danger of going extinct.