Abortion

[Kestra15]

Is it A) a new life or B ) a parasite to be squashed...... women must be hard-wired into one of these beliefs or the other. *backs away* Damn Internet, you scary.... 0.0

If only it was as easy as that.

[Layn]

I would say that it isn't either of these things.

 

I personally believe that the adoption system in this country is broken, preventing people who want to adopt from adopting.

 

If I got pregnant, and couldn't keep the baby, putting it up for adoption would be torturing it. Before it is born, it has no concept of its own existence. To abort a fetus while it doesn't know it exists, or to put a baby in a system where it will likely attempt to kill itself by age ten?

 

Forcing a woman to have a child she doesn't want is torture. It's wanting the child that makes the trauma of being pregnant into a wonderful thing.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Layn

[Brite]

Is it A) a new life or B ) a parasite to be squashed.

 

And she chooses whatever she wants it to be. Factual truth can be scary. Nothing serious in life can be sugarcoated.

Edited November 17, 2011 by GhostChilli

[dragon_mando]

Is it A) a new life or B ) a parasite to be squashed...... women must be hard-wired into one of these beliefs or the other. *backs away* Damn Internet, you scary.... 0.0

It's both and neither.

 

It's whether the woman deems herself ready to take on the task of dedicating the next (minimum) eighteen years of her life to this potential life that makes all the difference.

 

For me, I am not ready, nor will I probably every be. Seeing a baby on a TV for a few seconds can have me crying. Seeing a baby face to face in the grocery can have me curled up in a ball in the aisle. I'm so phobic of infants and pregnancy that I'm starting to develop a branch phobia of men and heterosexual relationships. So at this point I'm starting to cry every time I see a handsome guy, too.

 

Having an abortion is taking accountability.

This.

 

Having the baby and dumping into a broken adoption system is being irresponsible. Aborting and saving that life from ever having to suffer...ever? Seems much more moral to me.

[HeatherMarie]

I would say that it isn't either of these things.

 

I personally believe that the adoption system in this country is broken, preventing people who want to adopt from adopting.

 

If I got pregnant, and couldn't keep the baby, putting it up for adoption would be torturing it. Before it is born, it has no concept of its own existence. To abort a fetus while it doesn't know it exists, or to put a baby in a system where it will likely attempt to kill itself by age ten?

 

Forcing a woman to have a child she doesn't want is torture. It's wanting the child that makes the trauma of being pregnant into a wonderful thing.

THIS, sooo much.

 

I've seen the crap that goes on in the adoption/foster care system. One of my best friends when I was young was a foster child, and I *met* him when he was hiding out in the bushes in front of our condo, because his foster mother beat him again and he was trying to run away.

 

*No one* can convince me that abortion is worse then putting a baby into that system. If a fetus cannot live on it's own outside of my body, if it's not developed enough yet to actually *live*, then abortion would be the nicest thing I could possibly do for it. Because I sure as heck can't raise a child, and putting it in that system would be akin to child abuse in my mind.

 

And really, it's *not* as easy as "sex can lead to pregnancy, be responsible". Other people made great comparisons with driving and such. Stepping outside of my house *could* lead to death. Taking the medication that controls my mental illness *could* land me in the hospital due to side effects. Does that mean that I just never ever do anything at all, because I'm afraid of the possible consequences? That's completely unrealistic. If you want to do something, like sex, that *might* have bad consequences, you just be as responsible and careful as you can be. That is *not* a guarantee. Condoms break, pills don't always work, *things happen*. Saying "just be responsible" is completely beside the point.

[ShinyTomato]

(Unpopular opinion alert: I think maybe it might be the origin of the idea that "every child is wanted/just because you don't want it nobody does," that people who want to adopt have to jump through all these hoops and many won't qualify. I doubt a loosening of restrictions would have much affect on the "3-4%" statistic, though.)

 

Likely not. It would have some effect, but doubtless adoption abuse stories would rise as well. I had a case recently where a couple adopted privately from a Chinese couple and were using the children as servants/slaves. Sad but true. The adoption system needs a lot of reform.

 

f you create a life by doing so, which is an amazing gift that too few women appreciate, how can you treat that life as inconsequential?

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a fetus is inconsequential. In fact, part of the point is that there are a lot of consequences that need to be weighed when one is pregnant. Did you know, for example, that over a 25% of abortions occur because a partner lied that they were sterile, or tampered with birth control? We live in a country where it is impossible to elect to be sterilized as a woman if you don't want children.

 

You know it can become pregnant, so when you decide you wish to have sex, first do some soul searching and decide if you DO conceive, are you prepared to deliver it? If the answer is no, ABSTAIN.

 

So people who never want children should never have sex, and thus watch their marriages fall apart? The reason humans have sex is for bonding, Reproduction is tertiary in primates.

 

There is no guarantee a fetus will become a person until long after the cut-off for abortion.

 

I simply despair that some people CAN treat an unborn baby as something to be disposed of.

 

Perhaps you're viewing it wrong. We're talking about people who know they can't provide the love/stability/resources for an infant. With abortion legal, child abuse drops, infanticide drops, and happiness of the general population of children increases.

 

Just have COMMON SENSE and perhaps not undervalue a new life

 

The thing is, earl on, it's a new life, but not a new human, because again, there is no guarantee that it will become human. A fetus can become half-a-dozen things other than human during the course of a pregnancy. It's not like egg + sperm = baby like so many seem to think.

 

I was supposed to be a twin. Instead, that fetus became a parasitic mass that killed my mother eventually. Had she had an abortion when they discovered it (after the legal cut-off) they could have saved her life.

 

and if it failed and she became pregnant would be able to decide what to do knowing there are plenty of options other than abortion

 

What other options do you think there are, if she can't care for it? Adoption is horribly broken, with 97% of children given up for adoption not being placed in homes, and entering the foster system, where over half of them die before reaching adulthood, and most of those that do having to survive at least one sexually abusive household on average. Adoption is horribly expensive, as is pregnancy. Safe Haven laws can actually put you in jail if the infant is malnourished, even if you're starving yourself. Not to mention, if you're on medication to keep you from being a danger to others or yourself.

 

For many, the option is literally, abortion or suicide.

 

 

[Rosedamai]

I live in a country where it is almost impossible to live as a single parent. Most people seem to ignore that most women who undergo abortions in my country at any rate are already married-they cannot afford, or do not desire, another child as the living costs here are horrible. Putting that aside, if you are a single parent it can be very hard on you. For example, in my country, single moms are the most discriminated group after homosexuals. Basically no one hires you and if you are a teenager, the school is more than likely to try to prevent you from attending. There was this documentary where a teenaged mother was hired by a Dunkin Donuts store-and most people were like, oh that is so kind of the manager! He hired her although she was a single mom! I mean, it's a friggin donut store, not some high-paid job. Anyways, based on those circumstances I would support any woman who decided to get an abortion. The penalty for having a kid is just too high in my country.

Edited November 18, 2011 by ylangylang

[Brite]

Adoption is horribly broken, with 97% of children given up for adoption not being placed in homes, and entering the foster system, where over half of them die before reaching adulthood

 

Thinking about my best mate who has been in foster, why do people foster if they end up hating the kid? I swear, for years, Cameron was beaten on by his foster dad's sons and was beaten every night by the foster dad when he got drunk. How do these people foster???

[ShinyTomato]

Thinking about my best mate who has been in foster, why do people foster if they end up hating the kid? I swear, for years, Cameron was beaten on by his foster dad's sons and was beaten every night by the foster dad when he got drunk. How do these people foster???

Being a foster parnt gives the person money -- that's usually the why. The problem is, that once someone clears the checks for fostering and/or adoption, they aren't checked again unless there's a complaint or a reason to suspect abuse.

 

For every person that fosters out of greed, however, there's another who does it out of desire to help or adopt.

[Princess Artemis]

We live in a country where it is impossible to elect to be sterilized as a woman if you don't want children.

This bugs me so very severely. I think that allowing this would make such a huge difference. It would nip the issue in the bud for a lot of people--no conception and no birth control means no need to abort means no hand-wringing over what that means. And really, voluntary sterilization (I know, even that is not 100%) should, if anything does, come under the auspices of "my body, my choice".

 

I understand why I can't find a doctor that would do what I want done, because the health risks outweigh the potential benefits (what I wouldn't give for a much flatter monthly cycle; not out of dislike for it itself but because it causes my movement disorder to be so much more painful and intrusive), but a tubal ligation wouldn't carry those risks. "You might change your mind someday" is a very patronizing reason to deny something like this.

 

Of course, it all runs into a head-on collision with what Deaf and some disabled people run into when they go to their doctors pregnant in some allegedly civilized places: pestered about considering abortion. The world is so screwed up on this.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Princess Artemis

[Agent-of-Truth]

So I read a bit of this topic, figured I'd give a bit of input...

 

I am against abortion; I always have been and I always will be. I'd like to say it's just because of personal beliefs(it'd be simpler that way), but the fact of it is that my family was hurt by abortion. I have two relatives that I'll never know because of it.

 

My dad lost his mother when he was only four years old because she got pregnant, had an(at the time illegal) abortion, and she and her unborn child died from the procedure. I don't know all the details, mostly because I was fairly small when he first told me about this, and I respect if he feels it unnecessary to tell me everything.

 

I was brought up to appreciate life in all forms, so the thought of abortion just rubs me the wrong way. I can understand it if the woman's life is in serious danger, but if it's just to 'save face' for getting knocked up by her boyfriend(or even for getting raped) then no I don't condone it. I don't think money should be a factor either; if you 'can't afford' a baby, put it up for adoption. As crappy as foster care can be it's a lot better than no care at all because the kid wasn't even born.

[dragon_mando]

As crappy as foster care can be it's a lot better than no care at all because the kid wasn't even born.

False. I didn't even need foster care to spend the last twelve years wishing I'd been aborted.

[lightbird]

So I read a bit of this topic, figured I'd give a bit of input...

 

I am against abortion; I always have been and I always will be. I'd like to say it's just because of personal beliefs(it'd be simpler that way), but the fact of it is that my family was hurt by abortion. I have two relatives that I'll never know because of it.

 

My dad lost his mother when he was only four years old because she got pregnant, had an(at the time illegal) abortion, and she and her unborn child died from the procedure. I don't know all the details, mostly because I was fairly small when he first told me about this, and I respect if he feels it unnecessary to tell me everything.

 

I was brought up to appreciate life in all forms, so the thought of abortion just rubs me the wrong way. I can understand it if the woman's life is in serious danger, but if it's just to 'save face' for getting knocked up by her boyfriend(or even for getting raped) then no I don't condone it. I don't think money should be a factor either; if you 'can't afford' a baby, put it up for adoption. As crappy as foster care can be it's a lot better than no care at all because the kid wasn't even born.

First of all, I'm sorry that your family had to go through that and I understand that it might have left you biased, however, I think that hadn't abortion been illegal at the time when your father's mother performed a back-alley procedure and died as a consequence, she would be able to have it done safely and I think that, gruesome as it is, cases like these serve as an excellent example why abortions SHOULD NOT be made illegal.

 

Also, by being against abortion (which means eliminating a form of life that has no concept of self, feeling and, hence, suffering) you're unwittingly supporting infanticide and child neglect/abuse.

I think there are far worse things to experience than simply not existing. Like Shiny has posted before, around a half of the children in the adoption system die before reaching adulthood, only 3-4% of the children put in the system every year get successfully adopted and the system itself is screwed to make adoption for possibly good parents difficult/bordering on impossible because of supposed limitations that often have no actual basis in parental skills of the applicants.

Edited November 18, 2011 by lightbird

[Xyzaq]

I've only read the last few posts - forgive me if I'm totally missing whatever is going on.

 

I am, personally pro-choice. I attend a private school called Nightingale-Bamford. It's rather prestigious and I'm proud to say that we are a pretty close-knit community.

But I live in New York City, and other boroughs (public schools in my own borough, even) don't always have nice schools. My school has this peer-to-peer program, sort of. Each volunteer gets assigned three children (either younger or the same age) from a different school. Many of these children are children who live in foster care under greedy people who want them for money. They are beaten, they are neglected, and so many of them have contemplated suicide.

My oldest charge is a little girl called Amaliya, and she's in third grade. She tells me her father hits her every night, but only in places that she can easily hide under clothing. The other two are little twins named Alex and Annie in first grade, and they are, luckily, part of a working-class but very loving family.

 

Amaliya is with these foster parents because they wanted money; she has seven 'brothers and sisters' as well. She told me her foster parents remind her every day that she is only there because of money, that her mother was too stupid to get an abortion and she should blame all her suffering on her mother.

 

I feel terrible for her sometimes; I've tried reaching out to help her, but nobody believes me. And I feel like it's so common that schools have stopped caring.

 

I think I would definitely want an abortion if I ever got pregnant on some sort of accident - much easier to simply delete the fetus' existence before it can feel any sort of pain, or be able to comprehend anything, then to let it live and have it suffer a life like Amaliya's. Of course there is always the off-chance that they might be found by a loving family, but...

[Agent-of-Truth]

Also, by being against abortion (which means eliminating a form of life that has no concept of self, feeling and, hence, suffering) you're unwittingly supporting infanticide and child neglect/abuse.

 

No I don't support those things, wittingly or not, so don't try to lump me in with those that might.

 

I may sound biased for saying this(heck, I probably am), but from what I've seen abortion is more often than not just an 'easy way out' for girls who aren't responsible or mature enough to face the real consequences of their actions.

 

I'm not saying this is always the case.

 

I'm not saying it's always the girl's fault.

 

I'm just saying that 'saving face' is no excuse to kill something, whether it feels or not. That was the main point of my first post also.

 

I am against abortion; I always have been and I always will be. I am not trying to shove my opinions down anyone's throat, nor am I trying to change anyone's mind. Everyone has opinions, and rights to them. I just don't appreciate being told that by simply having an opinion I support something like child neglect/abuse.

 

(As for you mando, your comment makes me curious as to your age. Obviously you're over 12, but maybe your feelings are linked to some deep trauma you've been through? I honestly can't fathom someone wishing they'd been aborted.)

[dragon_mando]

No I don't support those things, wittingly or not, so don't try to lump me in with those that might.

 

I may sound biased for saying this(heck, I probably am), but from what I've seen abortion is more often than not just an 'easy way out' for girls who aren't responsible or mature enough to face the real consequences of their actions.

 

I'm not saying this is always the case.

 

I'm not saying it's always the girl's fault.

 

I'm just saying that 'saving face' is no excuse to kill something, whether it feels or not. That was the main point of my first post also.

 

I am against abortion; I always have been and I always will be. I am not trying to shove my opinions down anyone's throat, nor am I trying to change anyone's mind. Everyone has opinions, and rights to them. I just don't appreciate being told that by simply having an opinion I support something like child neglect/abuse.

 

(As for you mando, your comment makes me curious as to your age. Obviously you're over 12, but maybe your feelings are linked to some deep trauma you've been through? I honestly can't fathom someone wishing they'd been aborted.)

No, abortion is not an easy way out. In fact it's pretty much signing yourself up to be hated by your peers for the rest of your life and isn't something to be taken lightly. A girl that has one could be honestly saving her sanity or even her life (because there are people that phobic of small children, like myself). Because of her choice to abort, she faces losing her job, being rejected from her church if she goes to one, being ostracized by her friends, and outcast from her family--on top of possible abuse from her partner if she has one. Just because it might look like she's taking the easy way out doesn't mean it is. If someone wanted to "save face" they'd have the kid and keep it, even if it meant dying from not being able to financially support a child and slowly starving to death.

 

As for the last bit, PM me. I really don't feel like cluttering the thread with textwalls the size of Alaska.

[Tamagakure]

First of all, I'm sorry that your family had to go through that and I understand that it might have left you biased, however, I think that hadn't abortion been illegal at the time when your father's mother performed a back-alley procedure and died as a consequence, she would be able to have it done safely and I think that, gruesome as it is, cases like these serve as an excellent example why abortions SHOULD NOT be made illegal.

 

Also, by being against abortion (which means eliminating a form of life that has no concept of self, feeling and, hence, suffering) you're unwittingly supporting infanticide and child neglect/abuse.

I think there are far worse things to experience than simply not existing. Like Shiny has posted before, around a half of the children in the adoption system die before reaching adulthood, only 3-4% of the children put in the system every year get successfully adopted and the system itself is screwed to make adoption for possibly good parents difficult/bordering on impossible because of supposed limitations that often have no actual basis in parental skills of the applicants.

I have to stand with Agent here, but I do also have to give you some credit.

 

You say that the unborn can't sense pain, suffering, or the like? Personally, I'm quite certain that nobody knows for certain.

 

The adoption and foster care systems don't work? You don't NEED parents to get by, bud.

 

 

I have to RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE with you; what if Albert Einstein(or just about any world-changing individual, for that matter)'s mother had been poor, and chose to have the unborn Albert aborted?

 

...A slim chance to change to world is much more likely to work.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Tamagakure

[dragon_mando]

The adoption and foster care systems don't work? You don't NEED parents to get by, bud.

It's not about not having parents, it's about the frighteningly high abuse rates. More than half the kids in the system die, most of the ones that remain are so psychologically broken that when they get booted at 18 they go straight to being homeless on the streets with no ability to hold a job.

[Tamagakure]

No, abortion is not an easy way out. In fact it's pretty much signing yourself up to be hated by your peers for the rest of your life and isn't something to be taken lightly. A girl that has one could be honestly saving her sanity or even her life (because there are people that phobic of small children, like myself). Because of her choice to abort, she faces losing her job, being rejected from her church if she goes to one, being ostracized by her friends, and outcast from her family--on top of possible abuse from her partner if she has one. Just because it might look like she's taking the easy way out doesn't mean it is. If someone wanted to "save face" they'd have the kid and keep it, even if it meant dying from not being able to financially support a child and slowly starving to death.

Ooo, good points there. ...But, if you're so desperately poor that you're starving to death, there is no blame for giving up a child to adoption or fostering. Even if you go with what is stated above (that these systems aren't very effective), you're still giving the child a CHANCE to survive and live a full life.

 

...Otherwise, you'd be letting them starve to death with no chance at all.

[dragon_mando]

Ooo, good points there. ...But, if you're so desperately poor that you're starving to death, there is no blame for giving up a child to adoption or fostering. Even if you go with what is stated above (that these systems aren't very effective), you're still giving the child a CHANCE to survive and live a full life.

 

...Otherwise, you'd be letting them starve to death with no chance at all.

And willingly put them through torture that they're quite likely to not even survive? Sorry, this is part of the reason why I've sworn that I will commit suicide if I can't get an abortion. I will not have not only an extra life but their emotional suffering on my shoulders.

[Tamagakure]

It's not about not having parents, it's about the frighteningly high abuse rates. More than half the kids in the system die, most of the ones that remain are so psychologically broken that when they get booted at 18 they go straight to being homeless on the streets with no ability to hold a job.

Even so, my point isn't really about the parents. I just said that wrong.

 

My key focus here is OPPORTUNITY. Dead children don't have much chance at all, and while they are highly unlikely to survive and live on successfully through foster care and/or adoption, they're more likely to make a living through that than through abortion.

 

 

Am I clear(er) now?

[Tamagakure]

And willingly put them through torture that they're quite likely to not even survive? Sorry, this is part of the reason why I've sworn that I will commit suicide if I can't get an abortion. I will not have not only an extra life but their emotional suffering on my shoulders.

...And in doing so, you still give them no chance to survive.

 

Again, I must RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE; you believe your method to be humane, and I think the same about mine. There is no "Right" or "Wrong" when it comes to opinions.

 

I agree to disagree with you.

[Shienvien]

You say that the unborn can't sense pain, suffering, or the like? Personally, I'm quite certain that nobody knows for certain.

The part of the nervous system which detects pain doesn't start functioning before around the 32thweek of pregnancy, a long way from the legal limit for choice-abortions. Thus, no physical suffering. What is not self-aware (due to the lack of advanced brain functions) and can't feel pain, can't suffer.

Plain factual, provable science.

 

The adoption and foster care systems don't work? You don't NEED parents to get by, bud.

One doesn't need parents, true, but for a human being to develop into a functional part of the community, the one needs proper social interaction - parents are one way to provide it. As are foster parents and social workers - but unfortunately, if no one cares for that child, the one will likely not receive a sufficient amount of attention and love. This is why so many unwanted children end up leading miserable, often short lives.

 

What if Albert Einstein(or just about any world-changing individual, for that matter)'s mother had been poor, and chose to have the unborn Albert aborted?

Let me ask you another question: would Albert have become the same brilliant scientist if he suffered constant abuse and neglect during his entire childhood, and got no proper education either due to it?

Very few of the former unwanted children lead decent lives even when already out of the system, and even those who would have had the potential to become someones usually do not, because they will never get the chance to put the potential to work.

[Tamagakure]

The part of the nervous system which detects pain doesn't start functioning before around the 32thweek of pregnancy, a long way from the legal limit for choice-abortions. Thus, no physical suffering. What is not self-aware (due to the lack of advanced brain functions) and can't feel pain, can't suffer.

Plain factual, provable science.

 

One doesn't need parents, true, but for a human being to develop into a functional part of the community, the one needs proper social interaction - parents are one way to provide it. As are foster parents and social workers - but unfortunately, if no one cares for that child, the one will likely not receive a sufficient amount of attention and love. This is why so many unwanted children end up leading miserable, often short lives.

 

 

Let me ask you another question: would Albert have become the same brilliant scientist if he suffered constant abuse and neglect during his entire childhood, and got no proper education either due to it?

Very few of the former unwanted children lead decent lives even when already out of the system, and even those who would have had the potential to become someones usually do not, because they will never get the chance to put the potential to work.

Again, good points. On the last one however, I must add a riposte;

 

If Albert were dead, would he have had ANY chance of becoming the genius he became? Granted, the systems can be truly brutal, and it is more often than not that someone is rendered helpless from it, but, I feel it is even crueler to never give them a chance to TRY.

 

As I see it, life is not something to be denied to someone or something simply because there doesn't seem to be much hope for them; there will always be an exception to put paid to that doubt.

 

 

 

There is no "Right" or "Wrong" with what either of us say. I respectfully disagree with you.

[hazeh]

If Albert had been aborted, someone else would have been the one to discover his findings. It's not like one person holds the key to everything. There would be others after him to discover the same things.