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You may want to re-read my post.

 

Putting the blame on the woman (in this situation) because she did something 'irresponsible' is still no excuse for a rape.

 

There is NEVER an excuse to rape someone. There is NEVER a reason to rape someone. And most of all? The victim should NEVER EVER be blamed for being raped, no matter what she was doing or what she was wearing.

I'm confused about how we got to the subject of people's clothing being a factor. I never said anything about that, I only said that responsible behavior could possibly reduce the risk. And once again people keep saying that I'm trying to blame the victim for the rapist having strange urges to have power over someone. I also never stated that there was an excuse for rape, it's highly frowned upon in societies. Do I support rapists? Absolutely not!

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I'm confused about how we got to the subject of people's clothing being a factor. I never said anything about that, I only said that responsible behavior could possibly reduce the risk. And once again people keep saying that I'm trying to blame the victim for the rapist having strange urges to have power over someone. I also never stated that there was an excuse for rape, it's highly frowned upon in societies. Do I support rapists? Absolutely not!

The bolded statement is the part that people are taking issue with. That statement distributes part of the guilt and blame for sexual assault onto the victim, because if they only "acted responsibly" they could have "reduced risk". Unless you're only talking about the rapist acting responsibly and reducing the risk that they will assault someone, you are suggesting that people who act a certain way or participate in certain activities invite sexual assault.

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The second factor is that if you know that you can't care for a child and you don't want to have a child, don't go out and get yourself pregnant. Be mature and responsible for your actions. Don't get yourself drunk or raped if you can help it. Don't let someone use peer pressure to get bad things out of you. Respect yourself and in the process you'll also better protect yourself.

Hi, there. Just want to say, I come in peace. smile.gif I understand that your sentiment in the above quote is "be careful," in general, but saying something like "don't get yourself raped" is definitely saying it's somehow in your power whether or not someone will rape you. Not true.

 

I mean, the flip side of statements like "don't get yourself drunk or raped" is something like... "men find it much harder not to rape a drunk woman," or "it's your job to keep people from raping you." I think the reason clothing came up was that a lot of people here drew a comparison to the idea that "men have a difficult time not raping a girl in a short skirt." It's the same kind of mindset, saying that somehow, you can control how other people treat you (i.e., a woman can to some degree ensure that a man will not rape her). But you can't.

 

Statements like "don't get yourself drunk or raped" also don't take into account the reality of the way most rapes happen. It's the minority that are committed by force in a dark alley somewhere, or when a woman is intoxicated in a house full of strangers. The majority of rapes occur when a woman is with a man she knows and trusts. What "preventative" measures can she take, then? Never get drunk with a man, or be alone with him, even if you think he's trustworthy?

 

I know, your main point was just 'take what precautions you can.' The problem is that, often, in court, a clear case of rape will end up dismissed because the woman somehow "compromised" her position by not having taken every possibly precaution against rape. "If she let a man into her house voluntarily at night and he proceeded to rape her, well, she shouldn't have let a man in her house at night, alone with her." It's that sort of logic that makes a lot of people react very strongly to comments which seem to place responsibility on women for rape prevention. Emotions can run high when it's that sort of talk which is often used to the disadvantage of rape victims in court and at home.

 

Consider this: a burglar breaks into someone's house, clubs them over the head, and robs them. Then, in court, the judge learns that on the night of the robbery, the homeowner had been drinking, thus was not alert and couldn't defend himself; plus he'd also said provoking, angry things to the burglar earlier that day. Would the burglar get a lighter sentence, or be less responsible for committing the crime, because of the homeowner's actions? Would the crime be more acceptable? Of course not. And yet, in numerous rape cases, the exact same logic is used to discredit the rape victim.

 

Plus, a statement like "not all of the people who are raped are responsible" has a flip side comment of "some of the people who are raped are responsible for their own rape," hence the strength of some of the reactions you got. It's an incorrect statement. Truly, no one who is raped is responsible for their own rape. The rapist is always responsible for the rape.

 

Just trying to shed some light on the last 3 pages of thread comments. I'm not angry at you or trying to flame anyone.

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Reread my post, I have it all covered, especially the first paragraph right below. I am sick of people on welfare, who do not want to help themselves. When you have SEX, please know what you are doing so you do not get ACCIDENTLY pregnant.

 

No, I do not want to pay for people having babies, there are enough on there already. Yes, if people can not be responsible, I guess we could do it for them. They get steralized ...EXACTLY, biggrin.gif

 

The young teenagers of today want to play grown up and they think they know what they are doing having sex, well, the young people do not know what you are doing because if they did, we would not have all these teenager pregnancies like we do.

 

Now reread my post below

 

I agree with abortions in some cases .. rape, the health of the mother, the health of the baby. Sometimes the protection you are using fails.

 

What I can not abide by is stupidity from people having sex and have no regard to getting pregnant. If you are going to have sex, know what the heck you are doing. Abortion is not good for ones body nor ones mind.

 

Anyone that says a female should be able to get an abortion if she wants to just because, well I will not finsh this statement. I know I am sick of paying for ignorant mistakes by others just because then.

 

For those that do not have abortions and have to have government assistance, you get pregnant a second time, you get your tubes tied, and if this is the males second baby, he gets sniped to.

 

I wanted more children but my hubby and I knew we could only really provide for the ones we had. I work, and I get sick of paying for those who are on government assistance because they are to lazy or do not care. People need to wake up and start being more responsible. Let me go and ask for government assistance and I would be told NO if I really needed it, not for things like abortion though.

I'b be *more* than happy to be sterelised. I've been asking to be sterelised for years. Y'know what? I have no kids, so they won't do it. The fact that I don't know, nor ever will, want children is not the point. They're so convinced I'm going to change my mind (I'm 28, btw, so it's very unlikely) that they simply won't do it.

 

I use birth control, but if that were to fail I'd have no other option but an abortion. The little gender tag you see on my profile should give you a good idea of why - it would be a living nightmare for me, and would probably lead to a suicide attempt.

 

Unless of course you think I shouldn't be intimate with my partner? We've been together quite happily for 8 years now, and aren't planning on seperating, but that would put quite a serious strain on my relationship.

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Come to Australia. From what I've been reading, it's completely legal for woman to be sterilised if you're over 18 and give consent so long as you find the right doctor who will refer you.

 

From my reading, it says that some doctors are hesidant because of age, but it's not outright illegal. :3

 

Not sure about Hysterectomy though. >>

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I'b be *more* than happy to be sterelised. I've been asking to be sterelised for years. Y'know what? I have no kids, so they won't do it. The fact that I don't know, nor ever will, want children is not the point. They're so convinced I'm going to change my mind (I'm 28, btw, so it's very unlikely) that they simply won't do it.

 

I use birth control, but if that were to fail I'd have no other option but an abortion. The little gender tag you see on my profile should give you a good idea of why - it would be a living nightmare for me, and would probably lead to a suicide attempt.

 

Unless of course you think I shouldn't be intimate with my partner? We've been together quite happily for 8 years now, and aren't planning on seperating, but that would put quite a serious strain on my relationship.

I said I agree with abortion if the protection fails, I have no problem at all.

 

I am concerned with those that do not use protection, and think oh, I can just get an abortion.

 

TikindiDragon, be comfortable with who you are, and you live your life as you see fit. There is nothing wrong with not wanting children either. I hope you both continue to stay happy. I have always told my kids, be happy, does not matter what anyone thinks.

 

I accept my kids for who they are unconditinally.

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I said I agree with abortion if the protection fails, I have no problem at all.

 

I am concerned with those that do not use protection, and think oh, I can just get an abortion.

Why does it matter if a woman uses abortion as a form of birth control?

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Why does it matter if a woman uses abortion as a form of birth control?

Actually - and seriously - because repeated abortions really aren't terribly good for you. I have no quarrel with the morality of it - though it is rather a waste of health services - but too many abortions can in the end affect fertility. Which is a pity for a young person who relies on them for a few years and later wants children. The "morning after" pill would be the answer for people who have one night stands or simply fear they may have become pregnant - and you do have 72 hours before it becomes dramatically less effective.

 

It's appalling that anyone would be refused a sterilisation just because they have no children. *fuzz stamps in rage* mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

 

For heaven's sake - we need a bit of population control, so that is SUCH a GOOD thing to do !

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Thing is though, pretty much anything out there can affect fertility. The food you eat, the drinks you drink, the drugs you take from day to day (like headache medicine and whatnot) and the pill. A friend of mine was on the pill for 10 years and she doesn't know if she's fertile anymore (she's 38).

 

Case in point, while abortion can rarely lead to fertility issues, so can a billion other things. While I do believe woman should not use abortion as a means to an end and make sure her and her partner are as resposible as medically possible for their situation, some woman are truly stupid. Statistics however show that those woman are a minority.

 

In short, I don't think it should really matter. There are always going to be a select few who abuse the health system and their bodies no matter how tight the laws are or how open they are.

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Thing is though, pretty much anything out there can affect fertility. The food you eat, the drinks you drink, the drugs you take from day to day (like headache medicine and whatnot) and the pill. A friend of mine was on the pill for 10 years and she doesn't know if she's fertile anymore (she's 38).

 

Case in point, while abortion can rarely lead to fertility issues, so can a billion other things. While I do believe woman should not use abortion as a means to an end and make sure her and her partner are as responsible as medically possible for their situation, some woman are truly stupid. Statistics however show that those woman are a minority.

 

In short, I don't think it should really matter. There are always going to be a select few who abuse the health system and their bodies no matter how tight the laws are or how open they are.

Oh yes - I'd agree. BUT - if you are going to want children, it is smart not to do things that can affect fertility. (The pill is another case in point, yes. I think that risk is fairly well publicised. But I wouldn't use it long term if I planned children later.) (Yes, OK - at 67, I think I won't actually need to....)

 

I think that availability everywhere, for everyone, of abortion on demand is VITAL. Just that Syaoransbear asked why should it not be used as a method of birth control. And in my mind - the risk to fertility is the ONLY real reason - that and the waste of resources....

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Hear hear on that. Personally though I think it's a good thing those woman repeatedly get abortions. If they can't comprehend the risks then I don't think they'd make very fit parents. :x

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We have rules for reasons. I realize some on here are young and anything goes. I remember being very liberal to when I was young.

 

Wait until you get older, and see how all of this you agree with now will affect the way you live, the money you make and how you raise your family.

 

Abortion will and can affect fertility.

 

People need to grow up and be RESPONSIBLE. That is the problem, no one wants to be held accountable for the things they do.

 

Like I said, I am sick for paying for the stupidity some exersize. If you are going to have SEX, know what you are doing and stop trying to play grown ups if you can not afford to pay your own bills and get off my shirt tail please.

Edited by ~Kat~

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While I might not be as old as some users on here, I have suffered through more than I am told people twice my age have dealt with.

 

I don't like paying for people's stupidity, but I accept that that is going to always be a fact of life.

 

Stupid people are stupid are stupid. I could argue until I'm blue in the fact that smoking is stupid and I shouldn't have to foot the bill to pay for their medical costs, but until the government declares smoking against the law, I have to regardless of how I feel.

 

Same goes for this.

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Abortion will and can affect fertility.

 

People need to grow up and be RESPONSIBLE. That is the problem, no one wants to be held accountable for the things they do.

Abortion can affect fertility, but if someone is using abortion as birth control they probably shouldn't be passing on their genes anyway tongue.gif .

 

It's true that people need to take responsibility, but I think having an abortion is taking responsibility.

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Abortion can affect fertility, but if someone is using abortion as birth control they probably shouldn't be passing on their genes anyway tongue.gif .

 

It's true that people need to take responsibility, but I think having an abortion is taking responsibility.

That's a little harsh. Some people are daft when young and later become civilised.

 

To those who object to paying for these things through taxes - you'd be paying for the child benefit, education etc anyway.

 

People need to grow up and be RESPONSIBLE. That is the problem, no one wants to be held accountable for the things they do.

 

Like I said, I am sick for paying for the stupidity some exersize. If you are going to have SEX, know what you are doing and stop trying to play grown ups if you can not afford to pay your own bills and get off my shirt tail please.

See above. And we have ALL - every single last one of us - done extravagantly stupid things in our lives. The child of someone who has done so should NOT be penalised - if it is better that it not be born to someone incapable of, or unwilling to, look after it properly - preventing its birth is a good thing, surely.

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Abortion will and can affect fertility.

 

Back alleys do. Or from doctors who don't know what they're doing. Which we may go back to if it gets outlawed.

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Back alleys do. Or from doctors who don't know what they're doing. Which we may go back to if it gets outlawed.

Not only. Also the hormonal stuff coming from regular disruption of things fertile (this is the same problem as long term pill use brings about) and the scarring which inevitably builds up if you get to the D&C stage and do so repeatedly.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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We have rules for reasons. I realize some on here are young and anything goes. I remember being very liberal to when I was young.

 

Wait until you get older, and see how all of this you agree with now will affect the way you live, the money you make and how you raise your family.

The older I get the more liberal I become wink.gif Doesn't always go liberal->conservative. When I was sixteen I made the Tea Party look liberal, now I'm somewhere between conservative and liberal.

 

Abortion will and can affect fertility.

Only if done repeatly in a short period of time or if done illegally in a back-alley clinic. However, even things like being vegetarian affect fertility. Doesn't mean it's necessarily bad either.

 

People need to grow up and be RESPONSIBLE. That is the problem, no one wants to be held accountable for the things they do.

 

Like I said, I am sick for paying for the stupidity some exersize. If you are going to have SEX, know what you are doing and stop trying to play grown ups if you can not afford to pay your own bills and get off my shirt tail please.

And if they did have the kid?

 

Instead of a couple hundred of your tax dollars you'd be paying tens of thousands for their education, food, clothing, and more, whether the parent kept them or put them up for adoption, so it's saving you your tax dollars to go to better things. Personally, if a person is that dumb to require multiple abortions, it's best they get them because they would be horrible parents anyway--plus be sucking up tenfold the tax dollar requirements.

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People need to grow up and be RESPONSIBLE. That is the problem, no one wants to be held accountable for the things they do.

 

Like I said, I am sick for paying for the stupidity some exersize. If you are going to have SEX, know what you are doing and stop trying to play grown ups if you can not afford to pay your own bills and get off my shirt tail please.

What does 'grow up and be responsible' mean, exactly?

 

My understanding of the idea of taking responsibility includes weighing ones options carefully and making a decision based on present and percievable future circumstances. Pregnancy (another thing that can negatively affect fertility, if we're keeping track) is far more costly than abortion, in terms of time, money, interpersonal relationships, professional pursuits, short- and long-term physical health. Keeping the infant afterwards is even more pricey and adoption only ameliorates some of those benefits. Giving it up for adoption, public or private, carries a heavy mental health toll and may also be financially difficult, depending on the arrangement made with the agency, adoptive parents or the state.

 

This isn't a choice that is made glibly and without thought by the great majority of the women who consider it. They weigh their options and decide what is right for them based on their own situation. By my understanding, taking into account all factors and reaching a conclusion of most benefit to oneself, ones spouse and ones other children is the height of responsibility, no matter the choice that is ultimately made.

 

Edit: Oh, and if we're checking credentials, I'm 31 and a liberal.

Edited by WereJace

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What does 'grow up and be responsible' mean, exactly?

One thing it means is consider very carefully if having sex is a good idea if you aren't prepared in any way for the quite natural result.

 

Not everyone weighs one's options carefully before reproduction is even possible. Would you not agree that that is part of being responsible?

 

(As for my credentials, I'm 36 and More Libertarian Than You, which gets me misunderstood from both sides : )

Edited by Princess Artemis

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One thing it means is consider very carefully if having sex is a good idea if you aren't prepared in any way for the quite natural result.

 

Not everyone weighs one's options carefully before reproduction is even possible. Would you not agree that that is part of being responsible?

 

(As for my credentials, I'm 36 and More Libertarian Than You, which gets me misunderstood from both sides : )

OK - and I am 67 and can outliberal the LOT of you. xd.png

 

And yes - after the mistake has been made - considering, and going through with, an abortion is being responsible.

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And yes - after the mistake has been made - considering, and going through with, an abortion is being responsible.

In most cases, it is so. Though one wonders if it is at all possible to be responsible before the fact, or if it is simply not something to be considered...as it seems such a horrible thing to say that a young man and woman in their teens have been irresponsible if they are faced with the fruit of their activities and now must decide what to do about it.

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In most cases, it is so. Though one wonders if it is at all possible to be responsible before the fact, or if it is simply not something to be considered...as it seems such a horrible thing to say that a young man and woman in their teens have been irresponsible if they are faced with the fruit of their activities and now must decide what to do about it.

Carrying condoms would be being responsible before the fact - but then you get people who think you are "easy" if you do that.... Planning ahead, as sex is always a possibility...

 

But I wouldn't be saying they were irresponsible if they asked for an abortion. I would be heaving a sigh of relief on behalf of the potential kid.

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Wait until you get older, and see how all of this you agree with now will affect the way you live, the money you make and how you raise your family.

Incidently I wouldn't call myself young and idealilstic by this point in time, and I still agree with it. Can't say I've ever noticed abortions being available on the NHS putting a serious strain on my income at all.

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One thing it means is consider very carefully if having sex is a good idea if you aren't prepared in any way for the quite natural result.

 

Not everyone weighs one's options carefully before reproduction is even possible. Would you not agree that that is part of being responsible?

 

(As for my credentials, I'm 36 and More Libertarian Than You, which gets me misunderstood from both sides : )

By the posters framing of the statement, I took it to mean after the pregnancy has been confirmed.

 

Sure, if that's what we're talking about, considering all possible results of having sex would be responsible. Planning for potential outcomes, including considering abortion, adoption or keeping the baby should sex result in pregnancy, would be part of that. Revisiting your conclusion after the fact is also responsible. Hopefully the individuals in question would have factual information available to them in order to come to a well-informed decision.

 

If the persons involved are young or ill-informed, does it follow that every decision they make is irresponsible, no matter what consideration goes into it? Is it inherently irresponsible to have sex without a clearly defined plan for every encounter?

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