Abortion

[pikapooka]

But who are we to judge, to know the extent of what the BABY knows and feels? I think abortion yes, is necessary in certain and few cases. But making a stupid decision to have relations with someone and get knocked up is no ground to abort this:

 

http://www.i-am-pregnant.com/img/sw14.jpg

 

This is a 14 week old baby , which can be legally aborted. Now look at this and tell me it isn't human, and that you would kill it (DO NOT read the rest of this if you are easily disturbed, frightened, etc) by either sucking it up through a vacuum cleaner like device, ripping it to shreds in the process, having a partial birth and crushing its skull, or ripping it apart in the womb and pulling it out in pieces? Mind you, this baby's heart has been beating for oh... 8 weeks now.

 

And you want to kill this baby for the stupid error the parent made, when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption. Look me in the eye and tell me it deserves to die a horrid death. It can feel.

 

So now you say, "Oh it isn't a person."

 

But it will be. It should be. It isn't a potential life, it is a life with potential. I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

 

Reminder: Please post pictures in link-form.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Spelunker]

pikapooka, I see a lot of slander in your post against mothers. No, nobody wants to kill babies for the parents making stupid errors. It would be killing a fetus, which, to many including myself, is not the same thing.

 

The reason we can support killing it is that we value the life of the mother (Including the /mental/ health of the mother, something pro-lifers consistently overlook) over the life of the fetus.

[Shienvien]

There is no such thing as "partial birth" at 14 weeks.

 

And I have said it before: potential = actuality. It is not a person - it cannot think, feel, it doesn't have a consciousness or thoughts. I can state it with full certainty because you cannot have any of it without a certain level of developmental complexity.

(And yes - I have noting at all against it being removed if the one carrying it within the one's body wants it to be removed.)

 

And support programs are horribly underfunded and even at the very best cannot repair the damage giving birth against will does both to individuals and society.

[Rosedamai]

Fetuses all look like that tbh.

 

http://www.emailvariety.com/wp-content/upl...07/mammal01.jpg

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KrTpJzaGCEo/STfV...l-fetus-922.jpg

 

http://neon.pictura-hosting.nl/wpp/wpp_mrx...6/1996050AL.jpg

 

So no, that doesn't look human, that looks like a mammal embryo.

 

And yeah, I think it's more responsible to not have a kid that you can't take care of, rather than just having another kid that you can't afford to have for whatever reasons. Hospital bills aren't free. Neither is time taken from your education.

 

Oh and the "heart beating" thing?

 

This is a lab-generated heart that's been made by removing all the cells from an old heart and replacing it with cells taken from rats.

 

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/asse...4/200811421.jpg

 

By your definition, it's alive.

 

Insects also have a heart. It beats. It does. Most people don't care.

 

So don't give me the "it has a heart" story. Doesn't affect me the least beat. (pun intentional)

 

ETA:

 

Another article about a lab-generated heart!

 

you can read it here!

 

EATA:

 

So what makes a human? If we're able to recreate the entire nervous system in a lab using stem cells, is that human? Hmmm? Are sperm and egg cells potentially human? Or does it have to be shaped like a cute wittle baby to look like a human, in which case, what if we only regrow skin and bone and muscle frame, is that human? I'm very curious as to what exactly people who are pro-life think is "human".

Edited July 10, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[ebony ink]

pikapooka,

 

First of - thank you for putting in a warning if your post lot's of people don't which kinda sucks.

 

Yes, the abortion process isn't perfect, it is horrific, but carrying to birth is not often the best option for the child or for the parent. To put it simply as I see a lot of motivations for abortions are for the potential welfare of the child - a person 'not wanting a child' to me is a valid reason because they're being honest, they'e owning up to the fact that the child would be unloved etc.* It take a lot of things to look after/raise a child - money and time are the main practical ones. People deciding the can't provide the necessary things to care for their child to best of their abilities is a good reason to abort.

 

This is not even beginning to talk about the physical and welfare of the person carrying the fetus.

 

The fetus for many of us here who are pro-choice is still a only potential for life - a potential that can be recreated** in better circumstances if the potential parents choose so.

 

when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption.

 

Giving up a child for adoption is rarely the 'better choice' I doubt there are many - or any countries - where the state system is good enough and there are enough people wanting to adopt so that every child is properly provided for.

 

Depending on the geographical location there might or might not be programs - the parents might not qualify, the support might not be enough etc. there is nothing lazy abortion.

 

Your argument is an emotional one, but as materialistic as it sounds love isn't enough to raise a child. And people who realise that and abort for many reasons that aren't medical or rape related, are being mature.

 

*not saying that the parents wouldn't be capable of loving their child etc. but it's not the best environment to bring a child into.

**unlikely to be identical but nonetheless

[LascielsShadow]

We can know because science tells us what "The baby knows and feels". NOTHING. It is not physically developed enough to have the capacity to know or feel anything. At all. And it's not a baby, anyway, it's a fetus.

 

Nice try on the appeal to emotion, but no. What difference does a heartbeat make? It signifies nothing except that a fetus has a working heart. Fetuses without brains have working hearts. Fetuses with fatal abnormalities and diseases can have beating hearts. A functioning cardiovascular system doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

Yes, of course a fetus is human, as in it is comprised of human DNA. That does not automatically make it a person. Even if it is, as I said before, that means it is subject to the same rule as every other person in existence: it does not get to use my body without my permission. How it got there is irrelevant. The important part is: do I want to allow it to continue to use my body? If the answer is no, then there is a good reason to have an abortion.

 

Adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy. It is an alternative to parenting. I am getting really sick of all of this "have the baby and hand it off to be adopted" nonsense. It. Is. Not. That. Easy. Not from any angle. Do some research. Look at the statistics for children who are adopted and not adopted, and what their lives are like. Check out stories from women and girls who have given babies up for adoption. Look at all the people who do want to adopt but are being prevented from doing so. Pretending that it is terribly easy to gestate, give birth to, and surrender an unwanted child completely ignores the very real trauma that doing so can inflict upon both mother and child.

 

The "many programs and places"? You mean the ones US lawmakers are gutting because they think they cost too much and people who are barely scraping by are getting too many benefits, or whatever other crap they can come up with on any given day? The "programs and places" that are going away because reproductive health clinics (which BTW, provide things like prenatal care and contraception) are being shut down? The "programs and places" that a significant number of legislators don't like because they want to -gasp- teach teens that sex makes babies and give them ways to prevent pregnancy? Are those the places you're talking about?

Edited July 10, 2013 by LascielsShadow

[Switch]

Mind you, this baby's heart has been beating for oh... 8 weeks now.

I'm pretty sure it was said at some point that is a fetus turns into a tumor it can still have a heartbeat? I think I've brought this up before. Miiiight be a little foggy on the details, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, guys. ;u;

 

Edited July 10, 2013 by Switch

[Shienvien]

I'm pretty sure it was said at some point that is a fetus turns into a tumor it can still have a heartbeat? I think I've brought this up before. Miiiight be a little foggy on the details, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, guys. ;u;

Actually, there are rare freak occurrences where a stem-cell tumor that started to grow on a random place on an adult grows itself something that is similar enough to a heart to have a beat. So a tumor mustn't even have been a fetus to have heartbeat.

[Switch]

Actually, there are rare freak occurrences where a stem-cell tumor that started to grow on a random place on an adult grows itself something that is similar enough to a heart to have a beat. So a tumor mustn't even have been a fetus to have heartbeat.

Ooh, okay. Thanks. o_o i didnt know about that. Creepy.

[Kestra15]

I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

Quite easily.

 

i) It's not a life, therefore it cannot be killed in the sense of the word you are attributing to it.

 

ii) It's not a baby, it's a fetus - a parasitic infestation and not an independent life form.

 

iii) Have you considered the mother's views and wishes, the biopsychosocial health of mother, the actual biological and potential psychosocial health of the child, the holistic picture of mother, child and family, before passing judgement?

 

I'd look you in the eye and tell you all that and more.

[BlitzDrake]

But who are we to judge, to know the extent of what the BABY knows and feels? I think abortion yes, is necessary in certain and few cases. But making a stupid decision to have relations with someone and get knocked up is no ground to abort this:

Just because someone "got knocked up" as you put it, does not mean they were careless. There are instances where that is the case yes but things such as failed BC, someone messed with the woman's pillz, I blame lack of sex education on society because God forbid we learn something serious.

Looking at the picture you showed me makes me feel nauseous, slightly sick. It does not make me feel sympathy.

Some women would no be able to handle a pregnancy as some would end up being emotionally, mentally, and physically scarred. They may never recover from the damage done to them. People like me would rather be killed than have to deal with this kind of thing. So sure, if calling people murderers because they care for their mental health and consider their financial and all other factors to determine if life won't be crap (or worse than crap) for both sides so be it.

Adoption? Erm....noh...just noh. Adoption, looking at the stats for it shows that many of the ones thrown into the adoption circle are pretty sad.

 

 

So now you say, "Oh it isn't a person."

But it will be. It should be. It isn't a potential life, it is a life with potential. I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

 

Exactly. It's the POTENTIAL. It's also a fetus, not a baby btw. This is not a person. A person can live outside of it's host. It has no memories, friends, people it's spent time with to make a bond with. It can be a human yeas, it can also become a tumor. Until it burst from it's host can it be a person. Because then it no longer needs to feed off it's host. It is born and now memories can form etc.

 

Edit: In short, what Kestra15 said.

Edited July 10, 2013 by BlightWyvern

[Syaoransbear]

But who are we to judge, to know the extent of what the BABY knows and feels? I think abortion yes, is necessary in certain and few cases. But making a stupid decision to have relations with someone and get knocked up is no ground to abort this:

 

http://www.i-am-pregnant.com/img/sw14.jpg

 

This is a 14 week old baby , which can be legally aborted. Now look at this and tell me it isn't human, and that you would kill it (DO NOT read the rest of this if you are easily disturbed, frightened, etc) by either sucking it up through a vacuum cleaner like device, ripping it to shreds in the process, having a partial birth and crushing its skull, or ripping it apart in the womb and pulling it out in pieces?  Mind you, this baby's heart has been beating for oh... 8 weeks now.

 

And you want to kill this baby for the stupid error the parent made, when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption.  Look me in the eye and tell me it deserves to die a horrid death. It can feel.

 

So now you say, "Oh it isn't a person."

 

But it will be. It should be. It isn't a potential life, it is a life with potential. I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

It could be a fully grown human for all I care. Guess what, if you require use of my body to live, you get to die unless you get my permission. No one in the world has the rights to use my body to preserve their own life. To allow a fetus those rights is not only taking away MY rights, but giving MORE rights to a fetus than any other human on the planet has. If all humans deserve equal rights, then the fetus should not be granted special privileges to use someone's body against their will, because no one has that right.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[diannethegeek]

And you want to kill this baby for the stupid error the parent made, when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption. Look me in the eye and tell me it deserves to die a horrid death. It can feel.

Adoption and after-birth care are alternatives to raising a child that you feel you cannot handle. They are, however, very poor alternatives to growing and giving birth to a child that you feel you cannot handle. Pregnancy is not some 9 month waiting period before you're handed a child. It has very real and long lasting effects on the mother's mind and body. Some mothers will experience severe complications for the rest of their lives. If a woman is not able to handle a pregnancy then I really don't care how she got pregnant in the first place. She should have access to a safe alternative.

[Fuzzbucket]

But who are we to judge, to know the extent of what the BABY knows and feels? I think abortion yes, is necessary in certain and few cases. But making a stupid decision to have relations with someone and get knocked up is no ground to abort this:

 

http://www.i-am-pregnant.com/img/sw14.jpg

 

This is a 14 week old baby , which can be legally aborted. Now look at this and tell me it isn't human, and that you would kill it (DO NOT read the rest of this if you are easily disturbed, frightened, etc) by either sucking it up through a vacuum cleaner like device, ripping it to shreds in the process, having a partial birth and crushing its skull, or ripping it apart in the womb and pulling it out in pieces?  Mind you, this baby's heart has been beating for oh... 8 weeks now.

 

And you want to kill this baby for the stupid error the parent made, when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption.  Look me in the eye and tell me it deserves to die a horrid death. It can feel.

 

So now you say, "Oh it isn't a person."

 

But it will be. It should be. It isn't a potential life, it is a life with potential. I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

Yes, I can and do tell you that it isn't human. It becomes human when it is successfully delivered, and can live on its own. That EMBRYO can't. So it isn't human.

 

And a tapeworm is alive by your definition. You tell me you wouldn't kill it. Both are parasites. When they can live without leeching on me, then they are alive.

 

9 months of pregnancy and a very bad adoption service is not the answer. Abortion very often is. Sad but true. The "services" you suggest are NOT exhaustive or even adequate. I KNOW two girls - now in their 40s who went through with things at 17, through those services. They had one HELL of a time. On the whole, pregnancy is not a condition a 17 y/o lone woman can cope with anyway in our society - and they still worry what happened to the children, whether they were adopted and happy, or whether they ended up (as so many do) in children's homes being abused.

 

I'd rather undergo abortion than have to spend the rest of my life wondering if the kid is OK - and I am a lucky one for whom actual pregnancy was a breeze.

 

Given your views, I hope you never suffer an accidental pregnancy before you are at LEAST 25 years old with a secure home, a job with healthcare benefits, and maternity leave.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Obscure_Trash]

But who are we to judge, to know the extent of what the BABY knows and feels? I think abortion yes, is necessary in certain and few cases. But making a stupid decision to have relations with someone and get knocked up is no ground to abort this:

 

-snip for size-

 

This is a 14 week old baby , which can be legally aborted. Now look at this and tell me it isn't human, and that you would kill it (DO NOT read the rest of this if you are easily disturbed, frightened, etc) by either sucking it up through a vacuum cleaner like device, ripping it to shreds in the process, having a partial birth and crushing its skull, or ripping it apart in the womb and pulling it out in pieces?  Mind you, this baby's heart has been beating for oh... 8 weeks now.

 

And you want to kill this baby for the stupid error the parent made, when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption.  Look me in the eye and tell me it deserves to die a horrid death. It can feel.

 

So now you say, "Oh it isn't a person."

 

But it will be. It should be. It isn't a potential life, it is a life with potential. I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

Okay, long post ahoy. There is a lot of information ahead, but please do try to read it all. <3

 

[Following information is USA-based]

 

1) Let's stick to the correct terminology, please. Using "baby" emotionally charges this in way that doesn't make sense to charge the debate in. It's a zygote, embryo, or fetus being aborted depending on when the abortion occurs. It's not a baby until it's born. Now, if the pregnant person wants the baby, I have no problems with them calling it a baby. But please don't force that term on pregnant persons who don't want a child.

 

2) A stupid decision to have relations with someone? Okay, let's assume that we're talking about consensual sex situations here and not rape. Now, keep in mind I'm an asexual with no libido. HOWEVER, why is it a stupid decision to "have relations" with another person. Sex is good for so many reasons, even if I myself don't want it. Sex is good for/because:

-Stress relief

-Bonding with a partner

-It's a cheap, affordable activity

-It makes you feel good

So why shouldn't two people experience that if they want to? Why is that a stupid decision? Whether they're 16 or 60, if they want to, why shouldn't they?

 

3) Actually, a 14 week old baby looks something like this: https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q...asBKbxJsEvKw-2X Which cannot be legally aborted because it's already been born.

Also, point of interest: http://24.media.tumblr.com/7c0a9cd9e2e01e9...bfel8o1_500.gif from http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

The age you're talking about for abortion makes up only 6.6% of cases.

 

4) A human fetus is human. However, it doesn't have personhood. No one is saying they would kill it. We're saying some people, such as myself, would abort it. Human =/= person and abortion =/= murder

 

5) Please, please, please don't get drawn in by propaganda. That's not how abortion works - really, it's not some big disturbing, violent process. I know that most the information out there is propaganda, but try a search and specify site:.edu and see if you can't find some better information there. Please also realize that there are reasons doctors perform abortions the way they do, and it's not because the pro-choice side is made of monsters.

Thoughts From an Abortion Doctor Warning for medical procedures in quotes

 

The 1st trimester and early 2nd trimester abortions are most frequently done as elective abortions for unwanted pregnancies. I don’t like to do elective terminations after 22 weeks because of the viability issue. Late 2nd trimester pregnancies are very different.

 

Virtually all of the late 2nd trimester abortions I do are for fetal anomalies, fetal deaths, and for maternal health reasons. These poor souls really wanted their babies. They are in deep mourning because of the loss of their children. They come in deep grief, many times feeling guilty because they are “killing” their loved and wanted children. They worry if the baby will feel the abortion, and they don’t want their child to suffer.

 

First trimester abortions (dilation and curettage, D&C) are very unremarkable. Our patients are awake but sedated. The procedure is performed with a suction curette (hard plastic tube), and in the hands of an experienced abortionist, suctioning out the pregnancy lasts less than a minute. The “products of conception” come out as just a mass of undefined tissue about the size of a golf ball.  No thunder and lightning. Most patients have worked themselves up to have it be a long, grueling process, but are shocked at how short the procedure is.

 

2nd trimester abortions are very different. The later procedure is much more difficult and riskier for the mom, hence the limited number of us who actually do them. They are also unpleasant, because the procedure (dilation and evacuation, D&E) involves pulling out the baby in pieces. That all being said, the procedure (in the hands of an expert) is much safer than inducing the delivery, and has a much lower complication rate that the induction does. Many of these poor parents don’t want to be awake for the birth of the child they are going to lose, and just prefer to lose the child under general anesthesia.

 

I’ve never done the famous “D&X” (dilation and extraction, “partial birth abortion”) procedure. This was the one that was outlawed because opponents thought it was too horrible of a procedure. The concept was to try to deliver the baby intact, but the brain matter was suctioned out to allow the delivery of the head through the cervix. This procedure was designed so that the parents of the child could hold an intact baby, back of the head covered up, after a surgical abortion. Not because we horrible abortionists love to torture babies and then kill them.

 

6) I'm sorry, but what point are you trying to make with the heartbeat? That still doesn't give a fetus personhood or the right to live off another person's body.

 

7) We are not talking about killing babies. We are discussing aborting zygotes, embryos, and fetuses.

 

8) Please stop calling the pregnant persons/the people who had sex names/insulting their choices. We do in fact have members of this board who have had an abortion. Please respect other members and their choices. ^^

 

9) Yeah, I'm going to need some sources for these programs and places that will provide all that.

 

10) Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy. Adoption is an alternative to parenthood. Offering support for a parent doesn't help someone who doesn't want to be pregnant.

 

11) Abortion is not a "horrid death". Think of the zygote/embryo/fetus kind of like a plant. It can react to stimuli, but it can't feel pain.

 

12) Again, it's not a defenseless baby. It's not a baby. And abortion is not killing anything. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Why do I support abortion? Because the pregnant person has a life, too. The pregnant person is a sentient being with a life already. Why do they not get rights to their body? Did you know we have to have permission from a person before they die to use their organs or use their body for science or etc? Without the choice of abortion, dead bodies have more rights than those who are female-bodied. =\

 

Now, let's return to resources for pregnant peoples and what pregnancy actually means:

 

13) Pregnancy isn't easy. Even in the USA our healthcare is severely lacking.

 

All taken from the WHO:

 

Every minute, at least one woman dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529 000 women a year.

 

For every woman who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year.

 

Some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers’ death.

 

99% of all maternal deaths occur in developing countries.

 

Maternal mortality is higher in women living in rural areas and among poorer communities.

 

Young adolescents face a higher risk of complications and death as a result of pregnancy than older women.

 

It has long lasting effects and many other dangers associated with it. It's not just a case of stretch marks. Warning for medical problems.

 

My name is Ness and I’m a certified doula and plan on going to school to become a midwife next year. I believe that pregnancy is a natural phenomenon, something our bodies have evolved to do effectively, but sometimes there are really serious complications that can put a woman’s life in danger. More than that, even healthy pregnancies can come with uncomfortable side-effects and long term medical problems for women. Here’s a list of some things that can occur due to pregnancy. I’ve done the work for you and bolded the ones that are life-threatening:

 

Hemmeroids

 

Preeclampsia

 

Obstructed labour

 

Vaginal tearing/episiotomy

 

Pelvic floor damage resulting in incontenence

 

Gestational diabetes

 

Insomia

 

Hyperemises gravidarum (uncontrollable and chronic vomiting)

 

Post-partum hemorrhage

 

Post-op infection

 

Major abdominal surgery (cesarean section)

 

Chronic back pain

 

Edema

 

Pica (craving non-food products like dirt)

 

Varicose veins

 

Symphysis pubis dysfunction (severe pain in the pelvis)

 

Blood clots

 

Anaemia

 

HELLP sydrome

 

Placental abruption

 

Diastasis recti (seperation of the stomach muscles)

 

GERD

 

Constipation

 

Uterine rupture

 

Amniotic fluid embolism

 

Postpartum depression

 

Postpartum psychosis

 

… and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

And just look how many states allow rapists to sue for custody or visitation rights after a forced waiting period for abortion: http://25.media.tumblr.com/49724f1ba4d3fae...cevoo1_1280.png

 

14) Adoption isn't actually a great alternative. And there is really no good counseling service for female-bodied who have given up a child for adoption. Here are some personal stories that say it best:

Warning for language Breaking the Silence and Warning for language Her Bad Mother

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6504218

 

The majority of people who want children are unable to adopt, and as it is, only 2-3% of children [this was 2010, in 2011 this dropped to 1-2%] given up at birth to be adopted through the state are actually adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

 

Further, adoption is prohibitively expensive:

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor’s visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

Children in foster care aren't all that thankful to be in foster care, either. Warning for suicide talk.

 

1 in 3 [children in foster care] will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

Not to mention that people really only want to adopt white babies. Older children and children of color will stay in the system way more than white babies. And there's too much to go into how much white parents adopting children from other countries often just ends up hurting them/putting them in a bad family.

 

15) Did you know that half of the abortions done in this country are done because of birth control failure?

Did you know that 1/3 of women who have abortions had a partner who sabotaged their birth control method?

Did you know that when denied an abortion, a female-bodied is less likely to leave an abusive relationship?

Did you know that a female-bodied denied an abortion is more likely to fall into poverty due to our poor welfare system, no paid maternity leave, having to miss days of work for appointments or pregnancy sickness, and all the above costs mentioned for pregnancy, not to mention childcare?

 

On the note of finances:

 

75% of women who get abortions cite financial reasons for their abortions, if women were supplied with an environment where their jobs and education were protected, their medical needs were fully covered and their children were guaranteed with a reasonable level of basic care upon birth that promised for a future better than the women could currently supply that would end nearly all abortion that are needed for non-medial reasons.

 

And it would cost only around 6billion/year or to put that in perspective 0.009% of what the U.S. spends on killing people (military budget)

 

16) I know this hasn't actually been mentioned, but I'm tossing it in this post in case it's needed for future reference:

 

Okay but here’s the thing about anti-choice people saying ‘you can just put it up for adoption’. Ignoring the fact that pregnancy can be deadly and ALWAYS life-altering, let’s break it down into birth statistics. This is based in America, but it can really be applied everywhere.

 

If there are roughly 1.2 million abortions performed in the United States every year, that would mean 1.2 million more babies would be born every year. If (and this is a rough estimate) fifty thousand of them died in-utero/during/after birth, then we would still be left with 1,150,000 children born every single year.

 

I’m going to be generous and say 150,000 of them would be kept by the mother/father. But the remaining one million would be put up for adoption. One million more children in the adoption system every year. Every year.

 

Going by the 2008 U.S census, 136,000 children were adopted that year. 1,000,000 - 136,000 = 864,000 children.

 

Eight hundred sixty four THOUSAND children being put into the system every single year. Every. Year.

 

Now, I’ll be very lenient and say it costs $250,000 to raise a child from birth until they’re 18. I’ll even ignore the cost of maintaining the buildings they reside in while waiting for adoption.

 

$250,000 x 864,000 = 216,000,000,000. TWO HUNDRED SIXTEEN BILLION DOLLARS every year to care for these children. Coming out of your tax dollars. Tell me again how abortion is irresponsible and you don’t want your taxes to pay for it.

 

17) If you want to lower abortion rates, here are some things you can support and push for:

• Affordable access to contraception and birth control
• Accessibility to family planning
• Good, comprehensive sex education
• Access to safe, legal abortion
• Push religious leaders to stand up in support of these
• Better, non-privatized, medical care for all

Other countries have done this and drastically lowered their abortion rates. [see Iran, IIRC]

 

Simply outlawing abortion means that pregnant persons will seek out unsafe methods [see Kermit Gosnell for a recent example] that are more likely to kill the pregnant person as well.

 

A list of arguments against anti-choice arguments may be of interest, too, for anything I missed.

 

18) Finally, I'd like to brainstorm with you on reasons why pregnant persons would get abortions. I know after my long post, you probably just want a break from reading or something, but please, see if you can think of some reasons on why people would want an abortion. You don't even have to let go of your thoughts of it being murder. Just...try to put yourself in the position and come up with one reason why someone might get an abortion. I have a little more to talk about, but it hinges upon you answering this question first. :3

Edited July 10, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Riverwillows]

What really upsets me about the whole anti-abortion stance, is that it vilifies the women/girls who get one. And the reasoning is that they shouldn't have had sex in the first place, that if they didn't want a baby, they should not have whor e'd themselves, etc etc, ad nauseam.

 

What about the boy? Why vilify the young girl for getting pregnant? It's always HER fault. I've actually heard lately, in this day and age, the old adage that "boys can't help themselves, it's up to the girl..." bull****.

 

It's always the girls fault. Never the boys. A boy needs sex, and in his ardor convinces a girl that she is his one and only, and so on....girls are raised in this society to be subservient, dependent on boys. So yeah, a very young girl gives in. Cause our society has conditioned her from babyhood that that's what she needs to do. And a boy, once he gets his rocks off, abandons her and whatever else happens is her fault.

 

The bible talks about stoning, and prostitutes. Never the men who MADE them become prostitutes.

 

Where's the accountability for the boys, the men?? I read here nothing about them. Only the women.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Riverwillows

[Fuzzbucket]

What really upsets me about the whole anti-abortion stance, is that it vilifies the women/girls who get one. And the reasoning is that they shouldn't have had sex in the first place, that if they didn't want a baby, they should not have whor e'd themselves, etc etc, ad nauseam.

 

What about the boy? Why vilify the young girl for getting pregnant? It's always HER fault. I've actually heard lately, in this day and age, the old adage that "boys can't help themselves, it's up to the girl..." bull****.

 

It's always the girls fault. Never the boys. A boy needs sex, and in his ardor convinces a girl that she is his one and only, and so on....girls are raised in this society to be subservient, dependent on boys. So yeah, a very young girl gives in. Cause our society has conditioned her from babyhood that that's what she needs to do. And a boy, once he gets his rocks off, abandons her and whatever else happens is her fault.

 

The bible talks about stoning, and prostitutes. Never the men who MADE them become prostitutes.

 

Where's the accountability for the boys, the men?? I read here nothing about them. Only the women.

THIS - so much this.

 

And thank you for your excellent post, Sock. I stand up to be counted as one here who has had an (early) abortion and does not regret it for one moment. It was right for me, , it was right for the father (a right *** who should never have been allowed to breed, as it later turned out - I never even told him I was pregnant); it was right for my later to be born daughters, and - critically - it was right for the never to be a baby, who never came to be more than a lump of cells.

[hazeh]

As a reminder, please keep graphic pictures in link form only. Pictures such as the recent ones posted can be triggering and/or harmful to our members, so please remember to use pictures in link form with an adequate warning as to their content.

[KageSora]

But who are we to judge, to know the extent of what the BABY knows and feels? I think abortion yes, is necessary in certain and few cases. But making a stupid decision to have relations with someone and get knocked up is no ground to abort this:

 

http://www.i-am-pregnant.com/img/sw14.jpg

 

This is a 14 week old baby , which can be legally aborted. Now look at this and tell me it isn't human, and that you would kill it (DO NOT read the rest of this if you are easily disturbed, frightened, etc) by either sucking it up through a vacuum cleaner like device, ripping it to shreds in the process, having a partial birth and crushing its skull, or ripping it apart in the womb and pulling it out in pieces?  Mind you, this baby's heart has been beating for oh... 8 weeks now.

 

And you want to kill this baby for the stupid error the parent made, when they are too lazy to look in to the many programs and places that will support the parent with education, care for the child, and adoption.  Look me in the eye and tell me it deserves to die a horrid death. It can feel.

 

So now you say, "Oh it isn't a person."

 

But it will be. It should be. It isn't a potential life, it is a life with potential. I don't see how you can support killing this, this defenceless little baby.

 

Reminder: Please post pictures in link-form.

Simple--they literally do not have the brain structure required to be human. Their brains are literally not developed enough to have a true sense of self and a unique identity, nor are their brains and bodies developed enough to exist independently of the host female.

 

It's not human. It looks like some freakish thing I NEVER want growing in my body, and I would happily get rid of that.

 

Also, heartbeat means nothing. A heartbeat does not indicate that it is person. Animals have heartbeats, but they are not people. A beating heart does not a person make. A heart means nothing--it is merely an organ that pumps blood through the body.

 

It deserves to die if it means a better quality of life for me. How is it a stupid mistake if I get RAPED? I have said this before and I will say it until people get it through their ridiculously thick heads that not everybody just has an accident and OOPS BABY:

 

There are many reasons--not just stupidity--that cause a female to end up with a child she cannot give birth to.

 

In my case, being both asexual and not in a relationship that I'd be willing to attempt sexual behavior in, the only way by which I would end up pregnant is to be RAPED. My mental and emotional health is already incredibly fragile, so the trauma of having my body violated like that would be really damaging on it's own. Added to that the knowledge that I would be carrying the spawn of my attacker for 9 months would be a nightmare. Then factor in the hormone stuff. I would very likely kill MYSELF if I couldn't abort it. And if I off myself, well, that little clump of cells isn't exactly gonna survive.

 

So please, tell me what's stupid about that? I mean, the only way to 100% prevent a rape pregnancy is to basically have surgery I can't afford and probably wouldn't be given even if I can afford it seeing as I'm young and have no children and I'll "obviously want them later" or some like that (I won't. I hate kids. I don't have the ability to love a child the way a mother should. I'm not programmed to be a mother. I would be a terrible mother. My hypothetical fetus would be better off aborted than in my care. The fact that I KNOW I would be a terrible mother is one of the reasons--mental health aside--that I do NOT want children.)

 

 

 

Or how about the people who aren't given sex ed and have sex because they don't realize it can cause a baby? Which, FYI, often happens when the rabid pro-life crowd doesn't even want kids to learn about sex (yes, I know not all pro-life people are like that--it's the rabid, extreme ones that are the problem in that regard).

 

Or how about the people who know that the adoption system is overflowing with unwanted kids or those who couldn't be cared for?

 

How is PUNISHING THE FEMALE for something that may have been outside her control (rape, financial situation suddenly changing, health issues, etc.) a good thing?

 

How about those who think they want a child, but after conceiving find out that they have a medical issue that will make it dangerous or even outright kill them if they try to go to term? How about those who aren't mentally able to handle a pregnancy? How is it okay to hurt them just so an unwanted clump of cells can get chucked into a system that's too full to work right?

 

 

And no, it will NOT 100% be a person. It can become a tumor. It can be aborted by the body. It can become a calcified mass. It can die and be stillborn or need to be removed. It is not a guarantee that it will be a person.

 

And even if it was a life with potential not a potential life--that potential isn't enough to override the existing life of the female. Besides, not all potential is good--you could just as easily be giving birth to a demon as to an angel. Potential is not enough to to override the female's life and hopes and dreams.

 

To think otherwise is to think of a female as nothing more than a broodmare, who matters nothing provided the fetus is born.

 

Fix the adoption system first--then you have something for those who cannot raise a child. Find a way to financially support pregnant women through their pregnancies while they wait to give birth. Find a way to support them for their after-birth care. Find a way to support them if the pregnancy causes permanent physical damage.

 

But that STILL won't help those, like me, who would not be mentally or emotionally stable enough to handle a pregnancy. Those who would not be able to handle the pregnancy itself will not be helped by a properly working adoption system.

 

It could be a fully grown human for all I care. Guess what, if you require use of my body to live, you get to die unless you get my permission. No one in the world has the rights to use my body to preserve their own life. To allow a fetus those rights is not only taking away MY rights, but giving MORE rights to a fetus than any other human on the planet has. If all humans deserve equal rights, then the fetus should not be granted special privileges to use someone's body against their will, because no one has that right.

ING THIS.

 

I don't know how many times it can be said.

 

 

 

(Also, for clarity since I know this was mentioned a bit in the sexism thread--in this, I use female to denote anyone who is biologically female. Since you can be a man and still have working female anatomy and be a woman but still have working male anatomy)

[Alpha1]

Where's the accountability for the boys, the men?? I read here nothing about them. Only the women.

 

Statutory Rape Victim Ordered To Pay Child Support

 

December 22, 1996 |By Erin McCormick, San Francisco Examiner.

 

SAN FRANCISCO — He was a 15-year-old kid with all the usual teenage sexual passions.

 

She was his neighbor--a 34-year-old mom, later convicted of statutory rape for engaging him in a romantic tryst that resulted in her getting pregnant.

 

But in a case that sets the term "deadbeat dad" on its ear, a California appeals court has ruled that the young man from San Luis Obispo, identified only as "Nathaniel J." in court records, is responsible for paying child support for the baby born of the illegal union.

 

 

"S.F. v. State ex rel. T.M. involved a man who was not conscious during a sexual encounter that led to pregnancy and who, therefore, did not consent to the encounter.71 In 1992, S.F. was at a party at T.M.’s house, after drinking at a club for several hours beforehand. He passed out and was put to bed by T.M. and his brother, fully clothed. When S.F. woke up the next morning, he was only wearing his shirt (unbuttoned).72 T.M. told a friend that she had sex with S.F. while he was passed out and that he had “‘saved her a trip to the sperm bank.’”73 A medical doctor testified at trial that a man who is unconscious is physically capable of both erection and ejaculation because these are not conscious, voluntary activities.74 There was a 99.47% probability that S.F. was the father of T.M.’s child.75 Although S.F. argued that he should not be held liable for child support due to T.M.’s sexual assault on him,76 the lower court ordered S.F. to pay $120 per month in child support and $7,152.40 as child support arrearage, toinclude the child on his medical insurance, to pay one-half of any medical expenses not covered by insurance, and to pay $300 for the cost of the blood tests.77 The appellate court, in affirming the lower court’s decision, looked at the Alabama Uniform Parentage Act78 and ultimately held that the interests of the child are paramount to any other party’s concerns.79 The court concluded that “any wrongful conduct on the part of the mother should not alter the father’s duty to provide support for the child."

 

"MONTREAL - A father has been ordered to pay child support to his ex-wife despite results of DNA testing that found three of the four children he helped raise are not biologically his, a Quebec Superior Court ruled."

 

[Starscream]

a 14 week old embryo is not anything that would make me go daawwww. Heck new born babies don't make me go daaww. they make me ick and look away. - I have a near phobic dislike for babies. I am rarely tolerant of children until they reach about 5 or 6 and you can hold a sort of conversation with them.

 

If I did get pregnant, then I would terminate in a heartbeat, without hesitation, without remorse or guilt.

 

The concept of some sort of creature growing in side me is as repulsive to me as finding out you got some sort of parasite. I feel they are little better than parasites because they make you feel ill, and give no benefits while taking all they can. Pretty much Phobic response.

 

The idea that someone would force me to remain in the state of being infected by a parasitical humanoid form, is barbaric - cruel at best. Sure people have said to me "you'll change your mind, you'll want kids, but now I am pushing toward 40, I do not see my stance changing.

 

If people want children, they can have them. If they can't but want children, they can adopt from those who do not wish to abort. BUT none of these people have any rights in the world to tell me that I MUST carry a child to term. It's my body and I can decide what lives in it and what does not.

 

IN my learning, no child should wield power over its parent. By this I mean, the parent says what goes and what does not. The child has to suck it up. The child cannot decide that it wants a toy, then scream and shout until it gets it. A parent who buckles and does that has effectively taught the child how to get what it wants. Kids aren't stupid.

 

However people giving fetus' rights over the mother is unfair. No one has the right to take away a woman's right to do with her body as she sees fit.

 

Sometimes "accidents happen" Contraceptives break, or birth control pills fail. I just went through 3 months of birth control pills failing by enduring about 9 weeks total periods in that 3 month span. Change of pill seems to have helped. Attempting to be responsible should not be penalised by being forced to carry that which you didn't want in the first place.

 

What if she cannot currently afford a child but wants to get herself into position where she can give it a life it could enjoy? Pregnancy at that point could prevent her from ever achieving her goals.

 

currently I am a student training to be a chef and any form of child would set me back probably permanantly. I am late as it is in getting my "what do I want to be when I grow up" in order

 

In regards to those poor men being forced to pay child support. What the pit? Who makes these rules? This world is spun. And those judges are just wrong.

 

Disclaimer:

For those who want to argue with me. I will not be responding. These are my opinions in the matter of how I view prenatal children.

These are my views and you are by no means asked to agree with them. However, I want to have the right to have my opinions whether or not you like them.

I will not be changing your views, or trying to get you to see my way.

Agree to disagree and do not argue my post.

You can consider me evil, nasty, cruel. I don't care. I've never given much consideration to name calling. However, before anyone considers it. Ensure you are in good graces and have done no wrong at all.

 

[_Z_]

Topic Reminder:

 

Everyone has an opinion, everyone is allowed an opinion, you do not have to agree with that opinion. This is a debate (Sharing Opinions topic), attack the topic not the member.

Edited July 11, 2013 by _Z_

[hazeh]

Statutory Rape Victim Ordered To Pay Child Support

 

December 22, 1996 |By Erin McCormick, San Francisco Examiner.

 

SAN FRANCISCO — He was a 15-year-old kid with all the usual teenage sexual passions.

 

She was his neighbor--a 34-year-old mom, later convicted of statutory rape for engaging him in a romantic tryst that resulted in her getting pregnant.

 

But in a case that sets the term "deadbeat dad" on its ear, a California appeals court has ruled that the young man from San Luis Obispo, identified only as "Nathaniel J." in court records, is responsible for paying child support for the baby born of the illegal union.

 

 

"S.F. v. State ex rel. T.M. involved a man who was not conscious during a sexual encounter that led to pregnancy and who, therefore, did not consent to the encounter.71 In 1992, S.F. was at a party at T.M.’s house, after drinking at a club for several hours beforehand. He passed out and was put to bed by T.M. and his brother, fully clothed. When S.F. woke up the next morning, he was only wearing his shirt (unbuttoned).72 T.M. told a friend that she had sex with S.F. while he was passed out and that he had “‘saved her a trip to the sperm bank.’”73 A medical doctor testified at trial that a man who is unconscious is physically capable of both erection and ejaculation because these are not conscious, voluntary activities.74 There was a 99.47% probability that S.F. was the father of T.M.’s child.75 Although S.F. argued that he should not be held liable for child support due to T.M.’s sexual assault on him,76 the lower court ordered S.F. to pay $120 per month in child support and $7,152.40 as child support arrearage, toinclude the child on his medical insurance, to pay one-half of any medical expenses not covered by insurance, and to pay $300 for the cost of the blood tests.77 The appellate court, in affirming the lower court’s decision, looked at the Alabama Uniform Parentage Act78 and ultimately held that the interests of the child are paramount to any other party’s concerns.79 The court concluded that “any wrongful conduct on the part of the mother should not alter the father’s duty to provide support for the child."

 

"MONTREAL - A father has been ordered to pay child support to his ex-wife despite results of DNA testing that found three of the four children he helped raise are not biologically his, a Quebec Superior Court ruled."

These cases make me so angry. Like seriously, WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE

[HeatherMarie]

*claps for Sock's post*

 

I really can't even add anything to that. Very thorough and well-said post, Sock!

[Kai]

Where's the accountability for the boys, the men?? I read here nothing about them. Only the women.

Child support sucks yo, and women like never have to pay it