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People who don't think that mass of cells is beautiful.

People who would be mentally destroyed by pregnancy.

People who dislike children.

People who aren't religious.

What does not being religious and not like kids have to do with killing it? And please explain mentally destroyed.

 

P.S Nobody ever said you had to keep the kid after you had it; give it up for adoption, and have a C-section if your that worried about it.

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I think abortions should be illegal. Although obviously there would be some exceptions such as:

Being raped

Not being physically able to have/care for the child

If your life is in danger by having the baby

It being a parasitic vampire eating you from the inside out (Can't have this whole post be serious can I?)

 

Who are we to decide wither or not this beautiful mass of cells is able to live and possibly thrive? That's just ,y two cents, take it or leave it.

Apparently you, since you've given a criteria for when it's unacceptable for it to live. Why should your criteria be law when not everyone believes what you do? What makes your reasons for acceptable abortion better than other reasons, such as simply not wanting to endure pregnancy and giving birth? If murder is murder, why does it matter if a woman is raped? What makes the baby conceived by rape more okay to murder than one that wasn't?

 

I'm not meaning to jump on you, I just believe that abortion is so very black and white. Either all of it is okay, or none of it is.

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Thanks Sock, I read it and yes you make some good points, but I still disagree

 

Pro-choice people can't exactly argue from a biological standpoint because you'll lose, as the second conception occurs the two cells converge and create a human organism, proving that there is human life.

 

Uhhh, why would we lose? I'm not arguing there's human life (though whether it will stay human life or turn into a tumor or calcified mass is up for debate). I'm arguing there's no personhood. Even if there was, please, why would it have more rights than I would? Again, if a person did not give permission when they were alive for their organs to be donated, they can't be donated once they die. Tell me, why are we respecting the wishes of the dead - even if using those organs could save a life - when we won't respect the bodies of the female-bodied? Why is it okay to control the body of female-bodied people?

 

So we now move up to the philosophical stance on debating where it be comes a person.

 

Again - why does it even matter? I know, I know, I'm on the side of a fetus having no personhood, but even if it did - why is the life of the fetus more important than the life of the pregnant person?

 

I am going to use euthanasia for an example to kinda show you guys where I'm coming from.

 

Say there is an old man who has alteimerz (I can't spell it) and someone looks at him and says,

 

"Well, he can't function right. He can't remember anything, and he is old. He isn't really a person."

 

And they kill him.

 

Firstly, there's a thing called assisted suicide, which I also support. It requires the permission of the sentient being - the man with Alzheimer's. Secondly, please, please, please, please don't compare the murder of people to abortion. It's wildly offensive. That man is a person. He is not living by using other people's bodies. He does not take their blood by force. He does not steal their organs. He does not live off of them.

 

In the civil war, they looked at a black person and said,

"He's black, he is different than us, he can't be a person, he will be our slaves."

 

NO, please especially don't do this. It's more than offensive to compare slavery to abortion. You're equating the life of a black person with a clump of cells. Black people are people. They are not a clump of cells growing inside of someone else's body. Slavery was a physical, mental, and cultural genocide of black people. It does not, in any way, compare to a female-bodied exerting control over her life.

 

What confuses me is, since when does what someone thinks about you determine who you are, what you are? I look at my brother and see an ape, but he isn't... (biologically. He sure acts like one.)

 

Who said what someone thinks about you determines what you are?

 

So, if a woman wants the baby, it's a person, but if she doesn't, it's nothing but a clump of cells?

 

Ah, I see, you very badly misunderstood me or something. I said that if a female-bodied wants a child, of course they're going to grow attached to the life growing inside of them. They can call that their baby. That makes them happy.

 

However, when anti-choicers apply the term "baby" to the abortion argument, they're not only incorrect, they're also trying to guilt pregnant persons. Technically, it is a zygote/embryo/fetus. That's is what is being aborted, so those are the terms we need to use.

 

The US law is so that if a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide.

 

If a pregnant woman who was getting an abortion the next day was murdered, guess what?

 

It would be a double homicide.

 

Yes, and? (Hey, did you know that Roe v. Wade was decided based on a person's right to privacy!)

 

AFAIK, it's considered a double homicide just in an attempt to up the charges for the murder. I've heard others wonder if it had to do with the point of viability. Whatever the reason - we really can't compare a sentient female-bodied person with personhood being murdered with a zygote/fetus/embryo being removed from the body of a pregnant person.

 

So, let me get this straight. I want you, you have rights. I don't want you, I can kill you and walk away without legal charges.

 

No. You cannot ever under any circumstances use my body without my permission. You can't just take my organs or my blood. You can't use my body for science. A zygote/embryo/fetus is using the body of a pregnant person without their permission. That's why abortion exists, and why it's okay.

 

But now to the issue.

 

I believe that before an abortion, the woman should be given an exam of her home life, financial situation, etc, and be told all her options of what she could do and look into programs and such. She should also be shown an ultrasound of the baby, to see the heartbeat and such. I guess it would at least save a few lives.

 

. . . Why? How does any of that actually have to do with an abortion? How is any of that not just a blatant attempt to guilt and manipulate a pregnant person into ruining their life? You even admitted it yourself: "I guess it would at least save a few lives."

 

None of those are medically necessary whatsoever. People do not just make the decision to have an abortion lightly. All those things you want them to exam? They've already thought about.

 

Tell me, what other alternatives are there to pregnancy?

 

I really feel like you didn't read my post at all. Please, please re-read what I said about adoption stats, the cost of pregnancy, the reality of pregnancy, and how female-bodied are more likely to fall into poverty if denied an abortion. There is no paid maternity leave in the US. And, as I asked for earlier, what programs? What programs are there to support pregnant people? It's too much to quote all at once, so here's the link: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=7496932

 

Quick question, have you all heard about Kermit Gosnell?

 

Yeah, actually. I even mentioned it in my post: "Simply outlawing abortion means that pregnant persons will seek out unsafe methods [see Kermit Gosnell for a recent example] that are more likely to kill the pregnant person as well."

 

Do you know why pregnant people went to Gosnell? Because he was cheap - he was affordable access to abortion. Because pro-life protesters drove them away from places that offered safe abortions. Because they were desperate to have control over their life and pro-life protesters and policies drove them to the only place they had left - a place that offered cheap, but unsafe, abortions performed by a man who wasn't certified. He also performed infanticide as well as murdering a patient who came in.

 

Now, could you please answer my question?: "Finally, I'd like to brainstorm with you on reasons why pregnant persons would get abortions. I know after my long post, you probably just want a break from reading or something, but please, see if you can think of some reasons on why people would want an abortion. You don't even have to let go of your thoughts of it being murder. Just...try to put yourself in the position and come up with one reason why someone might get an abortion. I have a little more to talk about, but it hinges upon you answering this question first. :3" Please. Just think about it and give me one reason.

 

The thing of abortion is... "A person is a person no matter how small" (Dr. Sesuss) so how can life not begin at the very begining? I mean I know we didn't look like it from the beginning but we developed and we became a baby, and we moved around inside of the woman so they are considered alive because I highly doubt that a dead or stillborn would move.

 

and

 

I am very aware that Horton hears a who isn't about abortion but the saying can have more than one meaning. It's like the baby is the who villagers and that its crying out to the outsiders I am here and alive. Does that make sense? So that is what I think about abortion a person is a person no matter how small.

 

You know it's alleged that Theodor Geisel threatened to sue pro-lifers for stealing his line and skewing it for their own purposes? He and his wife are staunchly pro-choice, and it's fairly rude to steal that line to use for anti-choice purposes.

 

Also, yeah a person is a person - so where's the support for the pregnant-person whose body was hijacked?

 

Destiny is perfectly right I say. "Person" is a philosophical term. A human is a human no matter how small, and it is wrong to take a human life.

 

It's wrong to use another person's body without their will.

 

And the fetu- I mean baby

 

=\ Now that was just spiteful.

 

isn't sitting inside your body going "heh heh heh, I wannna ruin your life. I am gonna make you miserable, everything that makes you tick is because of me"

 

It's not intent that matters. It's how it's perceived.

 

And of course a zygote/embryo/fetus isn't doing that. It's not capable of doing that in the slightest.

 

It's sitting in there growing peacefully. The most it can do is kick and suck its thumb.

 

Uh, did you miss the list of how pregnancy can be fatal, dangerous, or have lifelong effects? It's horridly dangerous and hard on the body. http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=7496932

 

I think abortions should be illegal. Although obviously there would be some exceptions such as:

Being raped

Not being physically able to have/care for the child

If your life is in danger by having the baby

 

So. Someone is raped. They've just been horribly violated. They will be affected for the rest of their lives. They will have triggers to deal with. They will possibly have PTSD, depression, or other mental effects that they have to learn to live with. They have to decide whether or not to prosecute (very few rapists are actually put away). If they come out and tell people what happened or press charges, they'll be faced with judgement by friends, family, and strangers who want to debate what they were wearing, what they were doing, who will go through their sexual history, if they were a "****", who will tell them that they deserved it. Not only might they have to prove to the court they were raped, in order to exert control over their body, they also have to prove this to who? in order to be allowed an abortion.

 

What about the other myriad of reasons people could want an abortion for? Why are those not good enough? And what gives you the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body? Why does a possibly zygote growing inside of me have more rights to my body than I do?

 

Who are we to decide wither or not this beautiful mass of cells is able to live and possibly thrive? That's just ,y two cents, take it or leave it.

 

The point is that it can't use my body without my permission. Nobody can.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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What does not being religious and not like kids have to do with killing it? And please explain mentally destroyed.

Mentally destroyed. Like ending up committing suicide. Or ending up with postpartum psychosis and drowning all five of your kids in a bathtub. Things like that.

 

P.S Nobody ever said you had to keep the kid after you had it; give it up for adoption, and have a C-section if your that worried about it.

 

Because nine months of pregnancy followed by labor is such an easy thing to endure- especially when it's against your will. rolleyes.gif And, for the record, a c-section is a major surgery.

 

Adoption isn't an easy answer either. To start with, there's the fact that most children are not, in fact, adopted (and the foster system is atrocious). Then there's the fact that giving up a child, even an unwanted one, can be hugely traumatizing. And, oh yes, the fact that adoption still requires going through the entirety of pregnancy with its attendant risks, followed by either labor or major surgery, with the attendant risks of that.

 

Who are we to decide wither or not this beautiful mass of cells is able to live and possibly thrive? That's just ,y two cents, take it or leave it.

 

The person whose body is being used to create and nurture it. The person whose body will never be the same. The person whose health and life are being put at risk. No "beautiful mass of cells" is worth forcing that on the unwilling.

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Apparently you, since you've given a criteria for when it's unacceptable for it to live. Why should your criteria be law when not everyone believes what you do? What makes your reasons for acceptable abortion better than other reasons, such as simply not wanting to endure pregnancy and giving birth? If murder is murder, why does it matter if a woman is raped? What makes the baby conceived by rape more okay to murder than one that wasn't?

 

I'm not meaning to jump on you, I just believe that abortion is so very black and white. Either all of it is okay, or none of it is.

Well then isn't that kinda like smoking pot? Now hear me out on this one; If you buy cannabis and smoke it recreationaly, than you can/will be arrested. BUT, if if you smoke it because you have some medical problem than all is good. Understand what I'm getting at? And I'm not trying to say abortion is like smoking pot, but.. I hope u understand what I'm getting at.

 

Its fine, you voiced ur opinion, I don't consider that jumping on me :-)

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Well then isn't that kinda like smoking pot? Now hear me out on this one; If you buy cannabis and smoke it recreationaly, than you can/will be arrested. BUT, if if you smoke it because you have some medical problem than all is good. Understand what I'm getting at? And I'm not trying to say abortion is like smoking pot, but.. I hope u understand what I'm getting at.

 

Its fine, you voiced ur opinion, I don't consider that jumping on me :-)

That's the difference between taking oxytocin as a painkiller and overdosing for fun. That is a horrible comparison.

 

Medically necessary drugs are completely separate from this issue.

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Well then isn't that kinda like smoking pot? Now hear me out on this one; If you buy cannabis and smoke it recreationaly, than you can/will be arrested. BUT, if if you smoke it because you have some medical problem than all is good. Understand what I'm getting at? And I'm not trying to say abortion is like smoking pot, but.. I hope u understand what I'm getting at.

 

Its fine, you voiced ur opinion, I don't consider that jumping on me :-)

I have no clue what your getting at, so no.

 

Also, I live in Colorado, where we legalized pot, so this comparison just doubly fails.

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Following Aristotle and Avicenna, St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274) understood the soul to be the first actuality of the living body...

Please show me a soul. As in catch it, bottle it, measure it, quantify it, identify it's source, creation and destruction, where it is found in the human body. Once you can do that, then perhaps Tom might have a bearing in the actuality of the debate.

Pro-choice people can't exactly argue from a biological standpoint because you'll lose, as the second conception occurs the two cells converge and create a human organism, proving that there is human life.

Uhh...no, this is where pro-choice people actually have the high ground. As we have repeatedly pointed out, life does not begin at conception. At the point of conception you have cell division, and entirely natural progress that occurs throughout the body and does not in itself create life.

 

Ignore this fact as often as you want, I'm the one sitting here studying nursing and holding the books and degrees.

It's sitting in there growing peacefully. The most it can do is kick and suck its thumb.

Really? So the fact that my sister's first pregnancy would have killed her if she'd carried to term, and the result of the second pregnancy (that she managed to carry all the way to term) resulted in kidney failure, multiple fractures, and weekly emergency visits to hospital due to various complications is 'peaceful?'

 

Please do some more first-hand research and then you may understand why some of your posts have errors in them.

Edited by Kestra15

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Pro-choice people can't exactly argue from a biological standpoint because you'll lose, as the second conception occurs the two cells converge and create a human organism, proving that there is human life.

 

I see this come up again and again. No one is denying that it is a human life. We are saying that that clump of cells isn't human.

 

Here, I want you to list the things that make us human as a species - not biologically or physically, but mentally. Can you do that for me?

 

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~snip~

 

Uhh...no, this is where pro-choice people actually have the high ground. As we have repeatedly pointed out, life does not begin at conception. At the point of conception you have cell division, and entirely natural progress that occurs throughout the body and does not in itself create life.

 

Ignore this fact as often as you want, I'm the one sitting here studying nursing and holding the books and degrees.

 

~snip~

I believe there is no conclusive proof on when life actually begins, and I'm sure that for every article you could throw at me saying that life begins at x time I'm sure I could find another saying that life starts at conception. In the end, I simply believe it comes down to belief. And I believe that life begins at conception. In the same way one can use science to prove up to a point that God doesn't exist. It's the same principal of simply respecting each others beliefs at when life starts.

 

@PointofOrigin - Speaking as a prolifer, I believe that girl should be able to have an abortion if she wishes. Extremists seem to get the press these days and give the rest of the side a bad name.

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I believe there is no conclusive proof on when life actually begins, and I'm sure that for every article you could throw at me saying that life begins at x time I'm sure I could find another saying that life starts at conception. In the end, I simply believe it comes down to belief. And I believe that life begins at conception. In the same way one can use science to prove up to a point that God doesn't exist. It's the same principal of simply respecting each others beliefs at when life starts.

 

@PointofOrigin - Speaking as a prolifer, I believe that girl should be able to have an abortion if she wishes. Extremists seem to get the press these days and give the rest of the side a bad name.

What makes her fetus different from any other? What makes it acceptable to kill that fetus?

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I believe there is no conclusive proof on when life actually begins, and I'm sure that for every article you could throw at me saying that life begins at x time I'm sure I could find another saying that life starts at conception. In the end, I simply believe it comes down to belief. And I believe that life begins at conception.

There, however, are those who think that when life begins is the least important aspect of the debate. I personally believe it boils down to three things: when a life becomes a person, the right to self-defense and bodily autonomy, and what is the best for both parties.

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What makes her fetus different from any other? What makes it acceptable to kill that fetus?

It endangers the person's life, and the person has absolutely no responsibility for the fact that they are pregnant.

 

There, however, are those who think that when life begins is the least important aspect of the debate. I personally believe it boils down to three things: when a life becomes a person, the right to self-defense and bodily autonomy, and what is the best for both parties.

 

I do not believe that when life begins is the key issue, merely that the 'life doesn't begin at conception' isn't a confirmed fact. I'm sorry if it came across wrongly.

 

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And I am upset at your miss reading.I'm not taking anyones right from them.  I am not banning it I just don't support abortion.

The problem you get with a statement like this is that you are supporting a culture which is taking away rights from women. Of course everyone has the right to speak their opinion. That should never be in question. But you should be aware that your words can have consequences.

 

When people speak so passionately against abortion, when they degrade the women who have them and vilify the doctors who perform them, they're upholding and encouraging an environment where:

Doctors are killed for performing abortions

Abortion providers have their lives threatened

Abortion providers fear for their lives and the lives of their families

Patients are escorted past the protesters for their own safety

States are passing stricter and stricter laws in an attempt to limit access to abortions

Parents hold their dying baby because they were denied an abortion

 

There are a lot of people in the world (and some in this thread) who don't like or support abortion but who recognize the right to choose. I respect those people immensely. But the people who speak up and speak over the pro-choice crowd are the ones politicians point to when making new laws. They're the ones turning away from and demonizing the abortion patients who need support. They're the ones people are afraid of as they enter abortion clinics.

 

When people speak up against abortion, using empty phrases and scare tactics, it fosters an unsafe and unhealthy environment for those seeking or providing abortions.

 

So no, I know that you aren't personally taking anyone's rights away from them. But you're making it easier for law makers to do so. And you're making it easier for protesters and vigilantes to do so. Words have consequences in this society.

 

Speaking of words, I'll just leave this link here: http://iamdrtiller.com/

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I believe there is no conclusive proof on when life actually begins, and I'm sure that for every article you could throw at me saying that life begins at x time I'm sure I could find another saying that life starts at conception. In the end, I simply believe it comes down to belief. And I believe that life begins at conception. In the same way one can use science to prove up to a point that God doesn't exist. It's the same principal of simply respecting each others beliefs at when life starts.

I'd love to see a scientific, peer-reviewed article that conclusively demonstrates life begins at conception. If it did, then the whole abortion debate would be academic.

 

Conception does not make life a certainty; so much could go wrong from there.

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@PointofOrigin - Speaking as a prolifer, I believe that girl should be able to have an abortion if she wishes. Extremists seem to get the press these days and give the rest of the side a bad name.

Then you're actually pro-choice, despite what you may personally prefer, because you respect the choices of other people to get abortions. You can still be pro-choice and anti-abortion, provided that you aren't pushing for legislation and respect the rights of others to do what they want with their bodies.

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What does not being religious and not like kids have to do with killing it? And please explain mentally destroyed.

 

P.S Nobody ever said you had to keep the kid after you had it; give it up for adoption, and have a C-section if your that worried about it.

Unless a baby is white pretty and perfect the chances of it being adopted are slim in the us, an unfair truth but truth nonetheless.

 

 

C-sections are horrifically painful, debilitating, cause extreme physical and mental stress, can cause lifelong impairment and permanently make medical insure more expensive for the women.

 

 

I have had both natural birth which is painful enough and a emergency c-section. The c-section was such a horror show that I would willingly and gladly give birth naturally without drugs to 12 pounds babies every day for the rest of my life to have never experienced it.

 

 

My opinion is if you do not want, like or believe in abortions than do not have one. Stop judging others who are in vastly different circumstances and making agonizing decisions for them and their families.

 

 

 

 

 

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It endangers the person's life, and the person has absolutely no responsibility for the fact that they are pregnant.

It's still alive, and still a potential person. If those circumstances make it alright to kill the fetus, what's the line where it becomes unacceptable? Why is a fetus conceived by rape less valuable than a fetus conceive in any other fashion?

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~That quote was removed, so please don't continue the conversation here~

 

I think abortions should be illegal.

It won't stop abortion to make it illegal. It will just guarantee the fetuses that aren't wanted will die as well as jack up the number of pregnant people who will die attempting to get illegal procedures.

 

And please explain mentally destroyed.

 

P.S Nobody ever said you had to keep the kid after you had it; give it up for adoption, and have a C-section if your that worried about it.

I would be mentally destroyed by it.

 

My mental health, as it is, is very fragile and tiny little really unimportant things regularly push me to be passively suicidal (as in, I wouldn't actively kill myself but I wouldn't be too fast to get out of a life-threatening situation).

 

Therefore the stress of actually carrying what I view as a parasite inside me for 9 months will all the hell that pregnancy brings (lots of vomiting! For somebody who basically "vomiting = on watch for a hospital trip" due to the fact that I rarely puke and when I do it's really bad--like, barely keeping a mouthful of water down bad, I rather imagine that'd be terrible)

 

Added to that the hormone issue would screw me up real bad.

 

I would very likely end up requiring either medication that you're not supposed to take while pregnant or I'd end up offing myself (and thus the fetus).

 

 

And that's just not even taking into account that rape would be the only way I'd get a kid, being asexual and not in a relationship at all right now plus not having a desire for a relationship. (But there ARE people mentally like me who would end up pregnant outside of rape, and therefore under your ideas would be forced to be mentally broken--possibly beyond repair--to give birth to something they don't want).

 

Adoption is a (crappy) alternative to PARENTING, not to pregnancy. The actual pregnancy itself would be mentally dangerous to my health and my life, so just giving it up to a crappy system wouldn't be a viable alternative. Not to mention it's not free--you can't just hand off a baby and skip away. It's expensive as hell to go through pregnancy then adoption. And I say this as an adoption success story.

 

As for a C-section... I've had abdominal surgery before--it was nothing like the major surgery required to remove a baby from my body. And that was nerve-wracking enough and the recover was annoying and boring and painful at times enough. So there's no way I want to go through 9 months of hell for an even more risky and major surgery than I've already had.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Who are we to decide wither or not this beautiful mass of cells is able to live and possibly thrive?

Who are anti-choice people to decide whether or nor I should have to incubate that mass of cells when I don't want to?

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Who are anti-choice people to decide whether or nor I should have to incubate that mass of cells when I don't want to?

This.

 

Seriously, why can't we all just be responsible for our own bodies and leave it at that? Why are other people trying to control strangers bodies in the first place? In a very general way, that just makes no sense at all. Why are people so determined to make sure that complete strangers suffer?

 

If you are against abortion, great, don't have one! But for the women you don't even know who might *die* trying to carry a fetus they don't want and can't care for, why is it any business of yours what they do? It's their body. Their choice.

 

"but it's a life!" "life begins at conception" "killing a baby" etc etc etc.... Yunno what? It doesn't really matter what you, personally, believe when it's *someone else's body* that fetus is destroying. If it's yours, then it's your decision. But you don't get to decide that strangers have to suffer physically and mentally for nine months just because you personally think the thing leeching off her is a life.

 

........ If only it were that simple and people actually listened to those *rational* types of arguments.

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If you think about it, the damage a fetus does to a woman's body could easily be described as assault and sometimes attempted murder, and a woman should be able to abort and claim self defense. There's also a number of other crimes fetuses commit such as theft, trespassing, squatting, urination on private property, etc.

 

So in conclusion, fetuses are criminals.

Edited by Syaoransbear

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