Abortion

[Fuzzbucket]

Child support sucks yo, and women like never have to pay it

Women are left holding the baby. That's why. (and by the way - if the man ends up taking care of the baby and the woman has an income - yes they DO have to pay.)

 

A yahoo answers page

One about child support paid after divorce

a more general one.

 

But let's face it - in the cases we are looking at here, the woman will have been left alone by the man, so she is the one looking after the child, and he was EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE (even more so, clearly, if he raped her) and should be paying for his child. Or are you saying men should have the right to shoot and run ?

Edited July 11, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[DarkLadyNyara]

I'm back, with a better standpoint and understanding of the whole matter.

 

I have a question for you all:

 

Where does life begin?

About 3.5 billion years ago, but I fail to see what that has to do with abortion.

 

Just because something is alive, that doesn't make it sacrosanct. Cockroaches are alive (and far more aware than a fetus), but few people protest when you kill those.

 

It could be a fully grown human for all I care. Guess what, if you require use of my body to live, you get to die unless you get my permission. No one in the world has the rights to use my body to preserve their own life. To allow a fetus those rights is not only taking away MY rights, but giving MORE rights to a fetus than any other human on the planet has. If all humans deserve equal rights, then the fetus should not be granted special privileges to use someone's body against their will, because no one has that right.

 

^THISTHISTHIS

 

Banning abortion because of the "rights of the unborn" both grants the fetus more rights than any born human, and grants the pregnant woman fewer rights than a corpse. How the hell is this something that we still have to debate?

[pikapooka]

Thanks Sock, I read it and yes you make some good points, but I still disagree

 

Pro-choice people can't exactly argue from a biological standpoint because you'll lose, as the second conception occurs the two cells converge and create a human organism, proving that there is human life.

 

So we now move up to the philosophical stance on debating where it be comes a person.

 

I am going to use euthanasia for an example to kinda show you guys where I'm coming from .

 

Say there is an old man who has alteimerz (I can't spell it) and someone looks at him and says,

 

"Well, he can't function right. He can't remember anything, and he is old. He isn't really a person."

 

And they kill him.

 

In the civil war, they looked at a black person and said,

"He's black, he is different than us, he can't be a person, he will be our slaves."

 

 

What confuses me is, since when does what someone thinks about you determine who you are, what you are? I look at my brother and see an ape, but he isn't... (biologically. He sure acts like one.)

 

So, if a woman wants the baby, it's a person, but if she doesn't, it's nothing but a clump of cells?

 

The US law is so that if a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide.

 

If a pregnant woman who was getting an abortion the next day was murdered, guess what?

 

It would be a double homicide.

 

So, let me get this straight. I want you, you have rights. I don't want you, I can kill you and walk away without legal charges.

~

 

But now to the issue.

 

I believe that before an abortion, the woman should be given an exam of her home life, financial situation, etc, and be told all her options of what she could do and look into programs and such. She should also be shown an ultrasound of the baby, to see the heartbeat and such. I guess it would at least save a few lives.

 

~

 

Quick question, have you all heard about Kermit Gosnell?

 

[eritated]

But now to the issue.

 

I believe that before an abortion, the woman should be given an exam of her home life, financial situation, etc, and be told all her options of what she could do and look into programs and such. She should also be shown an ultrasound of the baby, to see the heartbeat and such. I guess it would at least save a few lives.

I fail to see how having an ultrasound would change her mind about aborting the fetus.

[Syaoransbear]

Thanks Sock, I read it and yes you make some good points, but I still disagree

 

Pro-choice people can't exactly argue from a biological standpoint because you'll lose, as the second conception occurs the two cells converge and create a human organism, proving that there is human life.

 

So we now move up to the philosophical stance on debating where it be comes a person.

 

I am going to use euthanasia for an example to kinda show you guys where I'm coming from .

 

Say there is an old man who has alteimerz (I can't spell it) and someone looks at him and says,

 

"Well, he can't function right. He can't remember anything, and he is old. He isn't really a person."

 

And they kill him.

 

In the civil war, they looked at a black person and said,

"He's black, he is different than us, he can't be a person, he will be our slaves."

 

 

What confuses me is, since when does what someone thinks about you determine who you are, what you are? I look at my brother and see an ape, but he isn't... (biologically. He sure acts like one.)

 

So, if a woman wants the baby, it's a person, but if she doesn't, it's nothing but a clump of cells?

 

The US law is so that if a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide.

 

If a pregnant woman who was getting an abortion the next day was murdered, guess what?

 

It would be a double homicide.

 

So, let me get this straight. I want you, you have rights. I don't want you, I can kill you and walk away without legal charges.

~

 

But now to the issue.

 

I believe that before an abortion, the woman should be given an exam of her home life, financial situation, etc, and be told all her options of what she could do and look into programs and such. She should also be shown an ultrasound of the baby, to see the heartbeat and such. I guess it would at least save a few lives.

 

~

 

Quick question, have you all heard about Kermit Gosnell?

That is not a similar comparison whatsoever. The person with Alzheimer's and the black person have lives independent of other people. Them being alive does not infringe on anyone's rights. Their lives do not depend on the use of another person's body, and if they did, such as the requirement of an organ, then they would die if no one willingly donated an organ. The government would not force anyone to donate an organ to save their lives, yet people want the government to force a woman to give up her body for 9 months to support something that has the potential to become a tumor. That is not equal rights. If you want to call a fetus a human or a person, then you must treat it as such and not allow it to use someone else's body without that person's permission just like every other person in the world. Or you have to allow everyone the use of anyone's body whenever their life is in jeopardy.

 

Also, while it's possible for someone to receive a double homicide charge when they murder a pregnant woman, it's rare. So even the law believes that a fetus is not a human.

 

Why would you want a woman to view an ultrasound of her baby if she wants an abortion? Do you believe it's right to bring people into this world based solely on guilt?

[DarkLadyNyara]

So, let me get this straight. I want you, you have rights. I don't want you, I can kill you and walk away without legal charges.

 

No. You are using my body against my will, I can remove you, even if it results in your death, and walk away without charges. That's where your cute little analogies break down. The only way the fetus can survive is to use the body of another human. And no-one has the right to do that without consent.

 

The US law is so that if a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide.

 

If a pregnant woman who was getting an abortion the next day was murdered, guess what?

 

It would be a double homicide.

 

Quite a few people disagree with that law, just so you know. People used the outrage over Laci Peterson's murder to get it passed.

 

But even so, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if a fetus is a person. It still has no right to use the mother's body without her consent.

 

Quick question, have you all heard about Kermit Gosnell?

 

Quick question- are you aware that Kermit Gosnell was the inevitable outcome of pro-life policies?

 

I fail to see how having an ultrasound would change her mind about aborting the fetus.

Well, obviously, pregnant women are too stupid to know what they're doing. We have to show the little dears that it's a BABY! Then they'll stop demanding "bodily autonomy" and other silly things like that.

 

It's also a nice way of making abortion more inaccessible (ultrasounds cost money, after all), and can be fairly unpleasant to boot (especially trans-vaginal ultrasounds, which tend to be the type used early in a pregnancy). Everybody wins! Except pregnant women, but who cares about them, amirite?

Edited July 11, 2013 by DarkLadyNyara

[Infinis]

About 3.5 billion years ago, but I fail to see what that has to do with abortion.

Where life begins is the one of the core arguments of the whole abortion debate. Some people believe that life begins at conception, and others believe life begins at birth.

 

Pro-choice people can't exactly argue from a biological standpoint because you'll lose, as the second conception occurs the two cells converge and create a human organism, proving that there is human life.

 

Explain how we'll "lose" when we argue from a biological standpoint. o.O A fetus is not guaranteed to be human until it passes the point where it can instead become a tumor or calcified mass or whatever else they can turn into. Just because two cells converge does not automatically mean something is alive, and you have to remember that uteri can reject zygotes. I don't consider a fetus alive until it can survive outside the womb.

 

So, if a woman wants the baby, it's a person, but if she doesn't, it's nothing but a clump of cells?

 

So, let me get this straight. I want you, you have rights. I don't want you, I can kill you and walk away without legal charges.

 

As far as I'm concerned a fetus is a clump of cells regardless of whether it's wanted or not - I define a baby as already born.

 

As for the last bit, yes, that is exactly how I feel about something living off of me. Nothing gets to use my body against my will without me wanting/allowing it to stay.

 

Incidentally, I also support voluntary euthanasia. An alzheimer's patient being euthanized isn't really a comparable example because the patient is still sentient. I don't consider a fetus sentient in the way I define it.

 

I believe that before an abortion, the woman should be given an exam of her home life, financial situation, etc, and be told all her options of what she could do and look into programs and such. She should also be shown an ultrasound of the baby, to see the heartbeat and such. I guess it would at least save a few lives.

 

Why? Why should a woman's choice be questioned like this? Why should she be forced to view an ultrasound of a fetus she knows she doesn't want? To me, this is a cruel and unusual punishment. Most women getting abortions already know that that choice is the right choice for them. They don't deserve to have their lives examined to make sure that the right choice for them is really right.

 

Programs like what? Adoption? I've read stories that giving a baby up for adoption can be more harmful to mental health than aborting it - Sock posted a great link up there.

 

Adoption is not a good option anymore. There are too many babies and children up for adoption and far too few families wanting them. And as the child gets older, its chances of getting adopted drop - a lot. And the suicide rates among children in the adoption and foster system is ridiculously high - Sock's post points this out - and I'm sure Shiny could tell you even more about how bad it is. Children in the adoption system do not always fare as well as people want to believe.

 

Quick question, have you all heard about Kermit Gosnell?

 

Yes, but you should also know that most abortion doctors are not like that, either.

[Destiny Arts]

The thing of abortion is... "A person is a person no matter how small" (Dr. Sesuss) so how can life not begin at the very begining? I mean I know we didn't look like it from the beginning but we developed and we became a baby, and we moved around inside of the woman so they are considered alive because I highly doubt that a dead or stillborn would move.

[Lila]

I don't understand why people get mad at women for getting abortions, when the offended people have never donated an organ. It's painful, inconvenient, and life-altering. Of course, doing it voluntarily is such a fulfilling thing to do, and I don't think any of us are saying that donating organs is bad. If we were forced to donate our organs then it would mean nothing to us. Is that why we're so "pro-life"? Because pregnancy is an obligation? You want to take away my freedom to my body, and make something that could be beautiful and enlightening into a punishment? A punishment for something that may not have even been my own fault? That's ridiculous. Pregnancy should be a PRIVILEGE, reserved for people who can handle raising a child.

If you have never donated an organ while still alive, then you have absolutely NO right to tell me that I'M morally corrupt and to try to legislate my life based on what YOU THINK.

 

idk just my two cents

Edited July 11, 2013 by Lila

[Shienvien]

(@Destiny Arts) It being a life isn't a factor, you see. A mosquito has a life, too, but yet you don't see people protesting the killing of them. What zygote/embryo/fetus definitely is not, is person. Something that is physically incapable of having any of the qualities that make a person cannot be a person. And something which is not a person shouldn't be able to reduce an actual person's rights to noithingness. And adding to that - you can even kill an actual person in self-defense and go free. Abortion is, very often, a form of self-defense.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Shienvien

[Fuzzbucket]

The thing of abortion is... "A person is a person no matter how small" (Dr. Sesuss) so how can life not begin at the very begining? I mean I know we didn't look like it from the beginning but we developed and we became a baby, and we moved around inside of the woman so they are considered alive because I highly doubt that a dead or stillborn would move.

A person is a person, no matter how small.

 

Sure.

 

BUT

 

A foetus is not a person.

[Syaoransbear]

The thing of abortion is... "A person is a person no matter how small" (Dr. Sesuss) so how can life not begin at the very begining? I mean I know we didn't look like it from the beginning but we developed and we became a baby, and we moved around inside of the woman so they are considered alive because I highly doubt that a dead or stillborn would move.

Let's pretend that a fetus is a full blown person. Why should this 'person' have more rights than all other persons on the planet? Why is it allowed the right to use another person's body against their will, yet the moment it is born it would NEVER be allowed that right? Why does it not just get equal rights?

 

But personally I find the argument of a fetus being a person or not to be irrelevant. Unless the government has decided that all person's are allowed to use anyone's body against their will so they can save their own life, then a fetus being a person doesn't matter when it comes to abortion.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Syaoransbear

[Destiny Arts]

Let's pretend that a fetus is a full blown person. Why should this 'person' have more rights than all other persons on the planet? Why is it allowed the right to use another person's body against their will, yet the moment it is born it would NEVER be allowed that right? Why does it not just get equal rights?

 

But personally I find the argument of a fetus being a person or not to be irrelevant. Unless the government has decided that all person's are allowed to use anyone's body against their will so they can save their own life, then a fetus being a person doesn't matter when it comes to abortion.

Um... who says that this person has more rights? To use another person's boby against there will is terrible but to abort another person even in the very very first stage of being a being in terrible too. If a fetus wasn't alive at the begin then it would be a bunch of cells that would dissolve other wise I don't know how a fetus would grow if it wasn't alive, I mean I would find it odd if a dead person kept growing.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Destiny Arts

[WereJace]

The thing of abortion is... "A person is a person no matter how small" (Dr. Sesuss) so how can life not begin at the very begining? I mean I know we didn't look like it from the beginning but we developed and we became a baby, and we moved around inside of the woman so they are considered alive because I highly doubt that a dead or stillborn would move.

You know that Theodore Geisel was adamantly pro-choice, and that Horton Hears a Who is emphatically not about abortion, yes?

[Syaoransbear]

Um... who says that this person has more rights?

 

To use another person's boby against there will is terrible but to abort  another person even in the very very first stage of being a being in terrible too. If a fetus wasn't alive at the begin then it would  be a bunch of cells that would dissolve other wise I don't know how a fetus would grow  if it wasn't alive, I mean I would find it odd if a dead person kept growing.

Logic? If abortion is illegal, that means fetuses are granted the right to use another person's body against their will. No other person has that right. Therefore they have more rights to someone else's body than anyone else in the world.

 

A fetus grows because of the mother. If the mother dies, so does the fetus. The fetus is merely being sustained by the mother, and she should be given the choice whether she wants to continue sustaining that life or not.

[Shienvien]

Who says that this person has more rights? To use another person's boby against there will is terrible but to abort another person even in the very very first stage of being a being in terrible too. If a fetus wasn't alive at the begin then it would be a bunch of cells that would dissolve other wise I don't know how a fetus would grow if it wasn't alive, I mean I would find it odd if a dead person kept growing.

They are alive in the same sense a fungus growing on a tree and feeding off it is alive. Grass, trees, mosquitoes - *everything* is alive. Being a live doesn't make something a person.

 

 

Is a random person on the street allowed to legally demand that you would be hooked up to your blood circulation for many months if the person would die otherwise, without your consent being necessary? No. However, that is what a fetus is doing, and it isn't even a person. If a fetus has the right to do it, and any grown adult can't, then the fetus has more rights than any grown adult.

[Destiny Arts]

You know that Theodore Geisel was adamantly pro-choice, and that Horton Hears a Who is emphatically not about abortion, yes?

I am very aware that Horton hears a who isn't about abortion but the saying can have more than one meaning. It's like the baby is the who villagers and that its crying out to the outsiders I am here and alive. Does that make sense? So that is what I think about abortion a person is a person no matter how small.

[Destiny Arts]

Logic? If abortion is illegal, that means fetuses are granted the right to use another person's body against their will. No other person has that right. Therefore they have more rights to someone else's body than anyone else in the world.

 

A fetus grows because of the mother. If the mother dies, so does the fetus. The fetus is merely being sustained by the mother, and she should be given the choice whether she wants to continue sustaining that life or not.

I like how your saying life....so you are saying its alive and not dead or that it is dead and it will be alive? And yes if the mother dies so does the fetus but once in a while it will continue to live on after the mother pasts... not for long but it will still be there and if surgins can get it out in time it could live by itself.

[Infinis]

I am very aware that Horton hears a who isn't about abortion but the saying can have more than one meaning. It's like the baby is the who villagers and that its crying out to the outsiders I am here and alive. Does that make sense? So that is what I think about abortion a person is a person no matter how small.

The line "A person's a person, no matter how small!!" from Horton Hears a Who! has been used widely as a slogan by the anti-abortion movement in the U.S., despite the objections of Geisel's widow. While Geisel preferred to let his work speak for itself, he did occasionally speak out to protect his characters from exploitation. In 1986 when the line was first used by the pro-life movement, he demanded a retraction and received one.[53]

 

[53]^ "Dr Seuss: Rhymes and Reasons (2003 documentary) Part 9 of 9". YouTube. September 24, 2008. Retrieved April 9, 2012.Masters, Kim (March 14, 2008). "In 'Horton' Movie, Abortion Foes Hear an Ally". NPR. Retrieved April 9, 2012.

 

From Wikipedia, and I included the citation as well.

 

I don't personally consider a fetus a person, because a fetus is nothing like the people I see around me from day to day.

 

If a fetus has the right to do it, and any grown adult can't, then the fetus has more rights than any grown adult.

 

This, so much. It is unfair to give a fetus more rights than anyone else.

[hydrargyrum]

In what way, from the unborn's point of view, is it fundamentally different to be aborted versus never being conceived? A fetus doesn't know it looks human(ish), it isn't aware it has a life to protect, and it can't feel pain. An abortion ends the life before it's ever even slightly aware that it's alive.

 

I see no difference besides superficial ones between an egg cell that isn't fertilized and an aborted fetus. Yes, it looks a little more human, it has a full set of DNA, and often has a heartbeat, but is that really how you define a person? You also always argue about potential (that the child has a "right to life", and should be allowed to experience it), but then don't egg cells have the same potential?

 

Also, about Gosnell (although I think this has been mentioned before, it apparently bears repeating)-honestly, he makes a much better argument for choice than for pro-life. Everything that monster did was completely illegal and immoral, even to the most aggressively pro-choice people out there. The clients who went to him were desperate; they had nowhere else to turn, but would still rather go through those horrors than give birth. Making abortion illegal WILL NOT MAKE IT GO AWAY, it will only force it underground where it's much harder to regulate. Monsters like him are MORE common when abortion is illegal than when it's legal. And no matter how legal abortion is, what he did will always be wrong.

 

I am very aware that Horton hears a who isn't about abortion but the saying can have more than one meaning. It's like the baby is the who villagers and that its crying out to the outsiders I am here and alive. Does that make sense? So that is what I think about abortion a person is a person no matter how small.

...except the fetus can't cry out "I'm here and alive". Not just because it can't talk, but because it's not aware it's alive at all.

 

And to your second post, alive and human are not the same thing. Lots of things are alive. Bugs, bacteria, fungi, etc. Do you think we should defend those poor little termites or cockroaches from being exterminated when they invade someone's home? They're just as alive as a fetus, and MORE aware of their own existence.

[Alpha1]

~Removed~ Edited July 12, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[pikapooka]

Destiny is perfectly right I say. "Person" is a philosophical term. A human is a human no matter how small, and it is wrong to take a human life.

 

And the fetu- I mean baby isn't sitting inside your body going "heh heh heh, I wannna ruin your life. I am gonna make you miserable, everything that makes you tick is because of me"

 

It's sitting in there growing peacefully. The most it can do is kick and suck its thumb.

 

Destiny is right.

[Infinis]

Destiny is perfectly right I say. "Person" is a philosophical term. A human is a human no matter how small, and it is wrong to take a human life.

 

And the fetu- I mean baby isn't sitting inside your body going "heh heh heh, I wannna ruin your life. I am gonna make you miserable, everything that makes you tick is because of me"

 

It's sitting in there growing peacefully. The most it can do is kick and suck its thumb.

 

Destiny is right.

The problem is that it's NOT growing peacefully. A fetus is a parasite - it cannot live without its host. It continually sucks nutrition from the host to keep itself alive, and it can and will kill the host if said host does not take in enough nutrition to support itself and the parasite. This is exactly what things like tapeworms and mistletoe do, but no one complains when we kill tapeworms or cull mistletoe from trees. :x

 

The fetus may not /want/ to ruin the life of its host, but the fact of the matter is that it can, whether it's intended or not. A fetus can ruin the life of its mother if the mother does not want it for any reason.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Infinis

[7Deadly$ins]

I like how your saying life....so you are saying its alive and not dead or that it is dead and it will be alive? And yes if the mother dies so does the fetus but once in a while it will continue to live on after the mother pasts... not for long but it will still be there and if surgins can get it out in time it could live by itself.

The time period to do something like that is very slim. It's also only possible after the cut-off for abortion.

[babybluefire]

Peacefully? I guess you have never heard of Hyperemesis gravidarum, where a women can literally vomit herself to death via malnutrition, dehydration, electrolyte imbalance or I know of someone who ripped a giant hole in her esophagus and bled out.

 

Edit to add

 

I have two living children and in between them several miscarriages. During my second full term pregnancy my daughter had the cord wrapped around her neck and body several times. Her heart stopped during labor and she had to be resuscitated. She was for all purposes dead for a few minutes.

 

Now I was not happy to have miscarriages at 6-8 weeks. But it was in no way ever the same as the thought of losing my full term daughter. It is just not the same in any way. And that comes from a somewhat practicing catholic.

Edited July 11, 2013 by babybluefire