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Hi there. :3

 

On the whole 'if you have financial troubles, there's always adoption':

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6504218

 

Only 2-3% of kids placed in the system are adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

 

Further, adoption is prohibitively expensive:

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

And that's not even bringing up what it will cost you to miss days of work or have to take leave. If you're already struggling financially, this could do you over. Women are more likely to fall into poverty when denied an abortion that they wanted/needed.

 

And since we're on the subject of adoption:

 

1 in 3 [children in foster care] will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

Did you know that the 90% of Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (basically food stamps) benefits are redeemed by the third week of the month? 58% of people who receive SNAP benefits turn to food banks for extra assistance for 6 months of the year. Finally, the average SNAP benefit per person per month is $133.85, which is less than $1.50 per person, per meal.

 

I also love the Thoughts From an Abortion Doctor: http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/t...rom-an-abortion

It gives some real insight on who gets abortions and why.

 

Did you know that half of the abortions done in this country are done because of birth control failure?

 

Did you know that 1/3 of women who have abortions had a partner who sabotaged their birth control method? This is true domestic violence.

 

I agree that the reasonable path for anyone, pro-choice and pro-life, is greater education, as well as easy and affordable access to both birth control and family planning. These are proven methods that lower abortion rates. :3

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@Eluna Thank you for answering my question :3 I just wanted to add something in really quick.

 

I noticed that in one of your posts (or a few. I can't find them D:) that you basically said that the unborn should not be aborted because it's the parent's fault that they accidentally got pregnant and not the child's? Am I correct?

 

I think I can speak for most people when I say that no one thinks it's the child's fault <:3 I do whole heartily agree that it's the parent's fault if they accidentally get pregnant and they had consented sex. However, I think that by getting an abortion they are saying that they cannot take responsibility by bringing a life into this world for whatever reason they have. I think that by getting an abortion they are simply...sending them to better parents. I'm not sure what your religion is, or if you have one at all, but that's just what I interpret out of it.

 

I also believe, and I am repeating myself here as I posted this in this thread before, that it is no one's business but the mother's to whether she wants to have an abortion. The unborn, whether you think is a separate entity or not, is still attached to the mother. If someone is desperate enough, they will take desperate measures and risk their own life in order to get rid of the unborn. In the end, if abortion is outlawed and (hypothetically) I were to vote to ban it, it would MY fault that they died. Maybe not directly, but in a way it would be. I would feel no better than a murderer.

 

But that's just my thoughts on it .w.

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I don't believe a fetus has moire rights than anyone else. I believe it should have the same rights as everyone else.

So, if you believe a fetus should have the same rights as a person, then you believe we should make legislation making it legal for a person who needs a blood transfusion or organ transplant or something to pick a person--any person, even if they're not a donor--and then be allowed to take an organ (provided it's not an organ they can't survive without if they're still alive) or take blood or plasma or bone marrow or what have you, and have it used to treat them?

 

Even if the other person says "No, you can't use my body that way"?

 

Because to give a fetus the same rights as other people, and to outlaw abortion, we would kinda have to make legislation making that legal.

 

I mean, I'm just sayin'. It's not legal to harvest organs/bodily fluids off people who are unwilling to donate, so why should it be legal to allow a fetus to essentially hijack another person's body and life?

 

 

I think most people agree that the idea of having to get an abortion is, not fun. No matter how much someone may need it, it's surgery at the very least.

No, not always--depending on how early you get it, there are medications you can take to abort it without surgery, IIRC.

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No, not always--depending on how early you get it, there are medications you can take to abort it without surgery, IIRC.

Yes indeed. My abortion was non-surgical. And believe me - if that baby had been born, my life would have been hell on earth - and therefore, so would the baby's. Instead I am now 68 years old and have two lovely adult daughters, one with children of her own. That would not have happened if I hadn't had the abortion - instead in the end I would probably have killed myself as the result of knowing what I had lost - because I know far too much about what happens to babies put up for "adoption" and I could never have done that to a child. So - single motherhood at 19, end of everything I had planned. (This was, BTW, condom failure. Properly used condom. I knew my stuff - and still... they ARE only 99% reliable. As the doctor said - it is sad that you can't be sure the failure only happens when you pass the 99 mark... xd.png)

 

And Eluna - you did say (somewhere) that the baby should have a chance, as you think - I assume - that it will WANT to live. There are several people here in this thread who have said they wish they HAD been aborted. NOT every baby is thrilled to be born, when it gets to be old enough to have such feelings - and I bet that in many of those cases it was the fact that they were unplanned and - I think - a couple have said they were adopted, and others have said that they were brought up in care (where MOST such babies end up - look at Socky's post). They know whereof they speak.

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I would not hesitate in aborting if something went wrong.

 

Sure, I could adopt out. That's cool. But that would involve carrying it to term. For me, it would involve living as nothing more than an incubator for nine months, having the fetus feed off of me like a parasite, draining away my energy 'till I'm constantly fatigued. It would involve gaining copious amounts of weight (weight that I've worked hard to lose), living with aches and pains I can't get rid of until the nine months are over, and dealing with recurring depression all over again, potentially to the point of suicide. Then those nine agonizing months would go out with a bang as the fetus is either cut out from my stomach or rips through my vagina. To add on the icing to that lovely cake, I'd get slapped with a pretty bill from the hospital that would drive me into debt.

 

Now, does that mean I'll never have sex? Of course not. Sex is fun. It's a healthy way to bond with your partner. Am I selfish for wanting to abort than give birth? Of course not. I'd be being responsible because I know that I could not financially handle giving birth and the physical and mental problems associated with it (such as paying for more antidepressants, therapy, and so on). Women shouldn't have to be punished for doing something completely natural.

 

I've decided a long time ago that I'll never have kids, not only for my personal reasons, but also because there are over seven billion people on this planet sucking away Earth's resources. I do not - and never will - want to contribute to that.

 

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i think the main reason i dislike it is this;

its killing something with the potential to experience life, yes children may have a horrendous upbringing through fostercare but theres never a point where an already born child would be killed in anticipation of possible suffering.

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i think the main reason i dislike it is this;

its killing something with the potential to experience life, yes children may have a horrendous upbringing through fostercare but theres never a point where an already born child would be killed in anticipation of possible suffering.

So the fact that what is - at the time of the VAST majority of abortions - a clump of cells has the potential to destroy the woman it is sitting in doesn't rate ?

 

Washing/drugging out a clump of cells is as much "killing" as cutting off a nose you don't like, to have it rebuilt.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I, personally, don't consider it a 'life/person' until it is capable of surviving outside the womb, independant of the mother (and the vasty majority of abortions happen long before it reaches that point). Until that point, it is only a 'potential' life/person.

 

That said, a potential life/person should never trump the rights of the life/person that is already born. That potential life/person is taking up rent space (the womb) and the landlord (woman) has the right to evict if she feels the rentee is a threat to her property (mental/physical health).

 

 

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So the fact that what is - at the time of the VAST majority of abortions - a clump of cells has the potential to destroy the woman it is sitting in doesn't rate ?

 

Washing/drugging out a clump of cells is as much "killing" as cutting off a nose you don't like, to have it rebuilt.

it rates, i just don't see that particular clump of cells the same as ones without the potential of being their own person.

 

in a situation where the baby will die anyway or 'destroy'/cause a severe disability (mental/physical) to the woman i can see it as a moral and understandable choice to abort.

 

however in a situation where the woman simply dosen't want a child i really dislike it due to my view of it being essentially an unecessary death.

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however in a situation where the woman simply dosen't want a child i really dislike it due to my view of it being essentially an unecessary death.

Even if pregnancy or a child would cause them severe mental harm?

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however in a situation where the woman simply dosen't want a child i really dislike it due to my view of it being essentially an unecessary death.

So, a woman wanting to control the circumstances of her own life isn't worthwhile enough, in your opinion?

 

Who better than the woman herself to determine when/if she's ready to bring a child into the world and raise it?

 

To suggest otherwise is, IMO, to identify women as incubators rather than as individual human beings entitled to self-determination.

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Sorry, I used the idea of surgery because I can't get people being against early abortions. From what I understand, doctors caution women against thinking of a normal pregnancy as being a baby before 3 months, because miscarriage is very very common.

 

That's what happened to a friend of mine. She knew well before then but had been cautioned to maybe not spread the news. Well she did. She got excited about it. And she miscarried. So I see people forcing the idea of it being a baby before 3 months as a little cruel and misguided. It doesn't just shame the woman that gets an abortion, it also traumatizes the woman who miscarries. Really not necessary.

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its killing something with the potential to experience life...

Cancers, tumors, and parasites have the "potential to experience life", should we let them live too?

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Even if pregnancy or a child would cause them severe mental harm?

you editted out the part of my post saying i see it as okay if it causes mental harm :/

 

please dont attack me for the sake of it.

 

Cancers, tumors, and parasites have the "potential to experience life", should we let them live too?

 

i meant it in the sense of a human experience, to do as we are now

 

So, a woman wanting to control the circumstances of her own life isn't worthwhile enough, in your opinion?

 

Who better than the woman herself to determine when/if she's ready to bring a child into the world and raise it?

 

To suggest otherwise is, IMO, to identify women as incubators rather than as individual human beings entitled to self-determination.

 

i dont see women as incubators, i just believe people should take responsibility for their actions, especially if their action creates what it does here.

 

before im attacked i did mention earlier that exceptions should be made in extreme circumstances eg rape or where damage will be caused to her own life. etc

 

Please don't double post. Edit your post or use multiple quotes in the same post to address multiple people.

Edited by MURDERcomplexx

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Sorry, I used the idea of surgery because I can't get people being against early abortions. From what I understand, doctors caution women against thinking of a normal pregnancy as being a baby before 3 months, because miscarriage is very very common.

Yes - 25-50%, a doctor once told me. smile.gif

 

Mental damage is damage to the woman's life too, you know; being forced to carry and unwanted pregnancy to term can totally mentally destroy you.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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Well, just to point out, a lot of people view having an abortion as taking responsibility for the pregnancy.

 

The situation = Pregnant.

The problem = Don't want to be.

The Solution = Abortion.

 

There really is no alternative right now. Adoption is not a solution or an alternative for pregnancy, it's the alternative to parenthood.

And for those who just don't want to be pregnant, there is no other option.

 

You really can't force a woman to be pregnant if she doesn't want to be. The more women are forced to carry to term or prevented from getting abortions, the worse off the women and the potential children will be in the future. By banning abortion, in ANY case, is going to be a giant mess for everyone. More children and women on welfare, more women getting fired or losing friendships or even being disowned, more children in the foster/adopt system (which is not a good thing, because there are NOT enough families available for these children, not by a long shot), or more dead children AND women.

Banning abortion will never bring any good to anyone.

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it rates, i just don't see that particular clump of cells the same as ones without the potential of being their own person.

Er, how do you expect to tell the difference between the clump of cells that will never become human and the clump that will become a baby? There's no real magic way to tell "Oh, this pregnancy will become a tumor, this one will be a calcified mass, this one will be a chimera, this one will be a miscarry, and this one will be a baby!"

 

Seriously, if there WAS such a way, that would be awesome.

 

But you really can't tell right away if it will even survive to be born. I mean, you can tell when something goes wrong--but until then, how can you tell?

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Er, how do you expect to tell the difference between the clump of cells that will never become human and the clump that will become a baby?  There's no real magic way to tell "Oh, this pregnancy will become a tumor, this one will be a calcified mass, this one will be a chimera, this one will be a miscarry, and this one will be a baby!"

 

Seriously, if there WAS such a way, that would be awesome.

 

But you really can't tell right away if it will even survive to be born.  I mean, you can tell when something goes wrong--but until then, how can you tell?

thats not what i was responding to, the post i quoted was comparing the clump that grows to be a person to the clump that grows to be a nose specifically, im fairly certain i can tell my nose from a foetus.

 

 

and in the case you made, true we cant know if it will survive or miscarry etc but if i were in the position of a pregnant mother i wouldnt abort purely due to a chance of miscarrying.

Edited by MURDERcomplexx

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thats not what i was responding to, the post i quoted was comparing the clump that grows to be a person to the clump that grows to be a nose specifically, im fairly certain i can tell my nose from a foetus.

That wasn't exactly clear, since there were two mentions of cells in the post you quoted.

 

I respect that you wouldn't get an abortion if you were pregnant--but don't think that the fact that you wouldn't get an abortion should make it illegal for me to get an abortion.

 

That's what being pro-choice is--the choice to chose if you want an abortion. It's also the choice to choose to not have an abortion.

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but anyway back to wrapping up my original point because i really dont see this ending well as we clearly have clashing opinions.

 

if the baby will be harmful to the mother, mentally or physically, yes there should be a choice to abort.

 

if this were forced upon her in any way for example rape, yes she should have a choice.

 

anything immoral really.

 

my view is not shaped by religion, it is more shaped by my own fear of oblivion for myself and others, i see never being born on par with death, and the idea of both frightens me.

 

essentially as i have seen many a time, situations i disagree with consist more of the woman "thinking she wouldnt get pregnant" ie risking it, or of drunken stupidity. even situations where she changes her mind due to a career choice.

 

i believe if you chose to create the life, you should take responsibility. i do not wish for abortion to be banned, i just want more background checks.

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I don't think it's right, though, for you to say a woman shouldn't have an abortion for any reason that isn't health related.

 

You don't have to get an abortion if you don't want to--but people shouldn't be told "No you can't have an abortion just because you don't want to risk losing your job because of your pregnancy--you didn't keep your legs closed so suck it up and deal with it".

 

It just reeks of censorkip.gif-shaming to say that you need to give birth if you have sex.

 

It's using pregnancy as a punishment--a child doesn't deserve to be used as a punishment for a woman not keeping her legs closed...

 

 

You might equate abortion with death--but not everybody does, so your personal view shouldn't limit those who don't share it. Personally, I don't see stopping life from beginning to be the same as ending it.

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It just reeks of censorkip.gif-shaming to say that you need to give birth if you have sex.

 

It's using pregnancy as a punishment--a child doesn't deserve to be used as a punishment for a woman not keeping her legs closed...

This. EXACTLY this. "This woman had sex, and therefore she deserves any and all negative consequences we can force on her."

 

Using a child as punishment is flat-out disgusting, IMO. Any women who doesn't want a child? Should not be required to have a child.

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The concept of background checks seems pretty sketchy tbh.

 

Who's the one who gets the right to decide what's a valid reason or not? Everybody has different circumstances after all.

 

I don't want some suit up high in congress or a dude in a lab coat to decide for me and I'm pretty sure most women don't want that either.

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i guess i just see a lot of value tagged onto life, even potential life.

im a vegetarian, i wont kill a bug if i can put it outside, i dislike animals being put down. however i accept people choices to eat meat, squish bugs and put down strays because people think differently and thats probably one of my main reasons for believing every potential conscious mind should become a conscious mind. so i accept the right to abortions, i just dont think they should be thought of so lightly.

a lot of the arguments express views that abortion isnt a big deal at all, and that gets to me, i really do see it as a massive thing that should not be done to correct earlier bad choices so people can remain free and not having to care for another.

 

i just dont feel its a thing to be done on a whim or for small personal gain.

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The circumstances of how a baby came to be should not matter. I actually find it a little offensive when people say this. Yes, a baby produced by rape is horrible and traumatic, but how can you say that it is horrible enough to justify the death of another, yet being forced to go through pregnancy against your wishes isn't quite traumatic enough? In one situation the woman's feelings are taken into consideration, in another they don't matter at all. How is that okay?

 

I don't really understand 'grey' viewpoints when it comes to abortion. If you allow exceptions where it's okay to kill a baby, how can you be pro-life? If you allow exceptions where it's not okay for a woman to have an abortion, how can you be pro-choice? I just see abortion as one of those things that really is black and white.

 

EDIT: also I just reached 5000 posts hehehehehe

Edited by Syaoransbear

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