Abortion

[KageSora]

The world is an ever-changing place. Society evolves. Laws change as society changes. That's a fact of life.

 

If you don't like it, that's too bad because change is inescapable.

[LascielsShadow]

I'm not complaining about the hate at me, I'm complaining at the fact that you ate at all. If this is to he discussed and stuff is to get done, then it needs to be done civilly.

 

What I hate seing is Americans fighting each other, I hate to say this, but we need another Wrld war to stop us from killing each other.

We don't hate. Arguing for a legal medical procedure to remain legal in the face of serious, sometimes violent opposition out of concern for the wellbeing of 50% or so of the country's population =/= hate.

 

Awesome; we need to start killing other people in order to not kill each other. In case you hadn't got the memo, we've been doing that for, oh, about a decade now.

[Mtntopview]

But too much change is not a good thing. If we repeal too much, we become soft no contradictory. It will sway with everyone's current thoughts. This in a way, is what makes America so weak. We cannot stand by a set of morals for any extended period to time.

[Slaskia]

But too much change is not a good thing. If we repeal too much, we become soft no contradictory. It will sway with everyone's current thoughts. This in a way, is what makes America so weak. We cannot stand by a set of morals for any extended period to time.

And yet if we have no change at all, we cannot grow.

[eritated]

But too much change is not a good thing. If we repeal too much, we become soft no contradictory. It will sway with everyone's current thoughts. This in a way, is what makes America so weak. We cannot stand by a set of morals for any extended period to time.

change isn't always a bad thing.

[Mtntopview]

I never said change was bad, I said too much was. As well the one thing that lean me towards pr life is:

 

The harder our life is, the practice we have at dealing with tough times.

 

 

This means that "is it worth it to have abortions to cull the weak, and maybe kill the next super gemious."

 

Also, I don't question that embryos are non-sapient, but they are alive. What right do we have to decide the fate of another?

[St. Jimmy]

I'm not complaining about the hate at me, I'm complaining at the fact that you ate at all. If this is to he discussed and stuff is to get done, then it needs to be done civilly.

We don't hate, we debate. Honestly, the only hostility I'm seeing is from you, and maybe from people getting pissed of at your misunderstanding or telling us how to think.

 

What I hate seing is Americans fighting each other, I hate to say this, but we need another Wrld war to stop us from killing each other.

I fail to see how this makes any sense.

 

This means that "is it worth it to have abortions to cull the weak, and maybe kill the next super gemious."

Or the next Hitler.

 

Also, I don't question that embryos are non-sapient, but they are alive. What right do we have to decide the fate of another?

What right do we have to decide the fate of a pregnant person?

Edited March 12, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[KageSora]

Oh, okay. So...

 

You'll side with the people who think that I'm a second class person because I have a womb. You'll side with the people who would rather that I kill myself because I am broken emotionally than allow me to rid myself of an unwanted clump of cells because I was raped since that's the only way I'm getting knocked up.

 

You'll side with the people who want to legally require medical professionals to lie to their patients to scare and guilt them into giving birth to something they never want to carry inside them in the first place.

 

You'll side with the people who want to give a clump of cells more rights than any other person alive.

 

You'll side with the people who treat women as if they're walking incubators.

 

You'll side with the people who think that their religious beliefs take precedence over my health.

 

You'll side with the people who firebomb clinics because they don't agree with the practices.

 

You'll side with the people who will get the very procedure they're fighting to outlaw performed because they think they're above their own cause.

 

All because they didn't speak up since you being neutral benefits them but hurts our cause.

 

Okay, good to know.

 

Because, see, while not all (hell, not even the majority, I think--there's a lot of really awesome, decent people who are pro-life) pro-life people are like the above, the extremists are--and you'd be throwing your lot in with them, not just with the reasonable people who disagree with abortion.

 

 

Not to mention that this isn't ONLY abortion in America--abortion is an issue in other countries as well.

[Spelunker]

But too much change is not a good thing. If we repeal too much, we become soft no contradictory. It will sway with everyone's current thoughts. This in a way, is what makes America so weak. We cannot stand by a set of morals for any extended period to time.

It's called progress, dude.

 

Let's see the "morals" that we have failed to stick by:

 

1. Slavery

2. Women are not worthy of rights

3. Gay people are not to be tolerated

4. Extreme Racism (At least, most of it.)

 

And those are just a few. Morals change with the society. As far as I'm concerned, they've changed for the better.

 

I never said change was bad, I said too much was. As well the one thing that lean me towards pr life is:

 

The harder our life is, the practice we have at dealing with tough times.

 

We're in tough times now. Tough times call for change, not rigidity, which is what you seem to think. We got out of the Great Depression through change, not waiting placidly like sheep.

 

This means that "is it worth it to have abortions to cull the weak, and maybe kill the next super gemious."

Abortions aren't to "cull the weak", they are to protect the mother.

Also, I don't question that embryos are non-sapient, but they are alive. What right do we have to decide the fate of another?

Are you a vegetarian? If not, then you are a hypocrite, and your point is invalid.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Spelunker

[LascielsShadow]

But why! All it does is cause Americans to hate each other (and in these trying times that's the last we need). If you want me to have an opinion, I'll just go pro life, since you've been so rude, and obnoxious, I haven't really heard any insults from their side.

Oh, no. Whatever will I do? The guy living god-knows-where thinks I'm a big ol' meaniehead for not taking a bunch of crap. I'm surely going to lose loads of sleep.

 

I don't give a crap about the "hate" it causes. My rights as a human being are more important than people getting along. So are the rights and lives of millions of other women in this country. And BTW, the only reason you haven't seen insults from their side is that you aren't a woman.

 

 

The harder our life is, the practice we have at dealing with tough times.

 

 

This means that "is it worth it to have abortions to cull the weak, and maybe kill the next super gemious."

 

Also, I don't question that embryos are non-sapient, but they are alive. What right do we have to decide the fate of another?

Yeah, tell that to all the people struggling to feed their kids. Tell that to the ones barely surviving, or the ones whose lives are ruined by an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy. Tell it to the little girls who are raped and impregnated, and all the other people who don't have the luxury of being able to sit around and pontificate on the subject.

 

 

Or the next Hitler?

 

I presume you'reagainst the death penalty, then?

Edited March 12, 2013 by LascielsShadow

[Mtntopview]

Oh, okay. So...  You'll side with the people who think that I'm a second class person because I have a womb. You'll side with the people who would rather that I kill myself because I am broken emotionally than allow me to rid myself of an unwanted clump of cells because I was raped since that's the only way I'm getting knocked up.  You'll side with the people who want to legally require medical professionals to lie to their patients to scare and guilt them into giving birth to something they never want to carry inside them in the first place.  You'll side with the people who want to give a clump of cells more rights than any other person alive.  You'll side with the people who treat women as if they're walking incubators.  You'll side with the people who think that their religious beliefs take precedence over my health.  You'll side with the people who firebomb clinics because they don't agree with the practices.  You'll side with the people who will get the very procedure they're fighting to outlaw performed because they think they're above their own cause.  All because they didn't speak up since you being neutral benefits them but hurts our cause.  Okay, good to know.  Because, see, while not all (hell, not even the majority, I think--there's a lot of really awesome, decent people who are pro-life) pro-life people are like the above, the extremists are--and you'd be throwing your lot in with them, not just with the reasonable people who disagree with abortion.  Not to mention that this isn't ONLY abortion in America--abortion is an issue in other countries as well.

 

I do side with them, and mind you I'm an athiest.

 

 

I'd like to point out. Humans are the most violent animal on the planet, we kill for no reason at all, and kill even because we are bored. We find ways to kill thousands of innocent. Not even chimpanzees do that. So think again, is it right to kill our own young? We the most violent and destructive force on the planet?

 

I don't think women are second class, I'm not totally against it, im against abortions that are for ease of living. If a woman is in danger then it is wise to do all that can be done to save the mother. It's like a mother lion killin her cubs in order for her to survive to create more.

 

And what disgusts me about pro choice is all of you assume that pro life are white, male racists. Even I know whites aren't the majority any more, the recent election prooved that (yes I'm pro Ovama only because he was slightly better than Romney).

 

I know abortion is an issue in other countries, I wasn't born yesterday.

[eritated]

I do side with them, and mind you I'm an athiest.

I thought you were neutral.

[Mtntopview]

I thought you were neutral.

Well everyone here was saying "neutrality was the worst of all", so i decide to take a stand. And now they will be even more rude that it wasn't THEIR side. (This is what I predict will happen)

[Slaskia]

If a woman is in danger then it is wise to do all that can be done to save the mother.

And yet you basically said earlier that if Abortion was illegal you'd not only rather leave her to die than to break the law, but to 'disown' her.

 

That's...messed up....

Edited March 12, 2013 by Slaskia

[Spelunker]

Why do you side with them? Because you don't like arguing?

 

MTN, you seem to keep changing your position. Maybe think on some of our arguments, and come back with a clear idea of where you stand on this, and let us know.

 

Socky, I see you lurking. POST.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Spelunker

[eritated]

Well everyone here was saying "neutrality was the worst of all", so i decide to take a stand. And now they will be even more rude that it wasn't THEIR side. (This is what I predict will happen)

Neutrality is worse because, like I quoted before,

 

"Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."

[Obscure_Trash]

Closed while I sort this out.

[Obscure_Trash]

Closed while I sort this out.

~Re-opened~

 

Necessary posts have been warned for.

 

On that note, I'm going to ask that we move onto a different subject to allow people more time to cool off.

 

Thank you. ^^

[KageSora]

Noted, and sorry for making more work for ya, Sock!

 

 

New topic~

 

I had a classmate... Laaaaast semester, I wanna say? Who was convinced that in the Chicagoland area, every black woman who had an abortion had her uterus removed without being told.

 

I was immensely confused, since... Well, you'd have to be getting zero information on abortion to not know that that's a major surgery and the abortion most people are probably getting wouldn't require a surgery of that magnitude.

 

He just refused to believe that all abortions didn't involve cutting into a person and thus allowing them to have their uterus removed against their will and without their knowledge. And he was anti-abortion because of it.

 

o_O

 

It's just a perfect example of why information on the subject needs to be spread.

Edited March 12, 2013 by KageSora

[Svataben]

Who was convinced that in the Chicagoland area, every black woman who had an abortion had her uterus removed without being told.

OMG!

 

I mean, just... Wow...

[Spelunker]

KageSora, that's nuts. Who honesty would believe that? Having an organ removed is a major surgery.

 

Anyway, I'd like to give them a braindump on what it ACTUALLY is.

[Syaoransbear]

Yeah that person clearly knows nothing about abortions. Early abortions you just need take a pill and that's it, how do they expect a pill to remove an entire uterus?

[Fuzzbucket]

Not true, I was trying to say that people should just leave the law as is, and obey what is dictated by the government. 

So if a law is passed that says every man has to have all his man bits surgically removed, you'd be off to the hospital like a law abiding citizen, I assume.

 

Abiding by the law is only one part of being civilised. Humanity is a bigger part. And abiding by silly laws is - silly. Goodness, in the UK it was TECHNICALLY illegal to have Christmas pudding for years and years. And when I first moved to Canada it was illegal to drink alcohol while standing up....

 

In Oklahoma, you can be arrested for making ugly faces at a dog.

In San Francisco, it’s illegal to pile horse manure more than six feet high on a street corner.

In the state of Washington, it is illegal to have sex with a virgin under any circumstances. (Including the wedding night.)

In England, it is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament.

In Sweden it is illegal to use the services of a prostitute. But prostitution is legal.

 

 

There are millions more. Not all laws are worth following.

Edited March 12, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[RainDear]

Like some others here, I am against abortion. Apparently I am unlike some others with this view in that I reserve the right of each person to make this decision for themselves.

 

I am just as against trying to force someone to be a mother as I am personally against abortion.

 

I never expected to want an abortion and had the good luck to never be in a position where my opinion on this was challenged. I can't say with certainty that there was no situation in which I would have changed my mind, because I was never in that type of challenging situation.

 

I can't see where forcing a woman to have an unwanted child is good for either of them. The child can be born into a home where it is unwanted, be mistreated, spend a life feeling unworthy, be adopted into a home that isn't necessarily better, or wind up in the foster system, which again is not necessarily good for the child. Just being alive is not necessarily a good thing.

 

It is none of my business what other women choose to do in their own particular situation, which is not mine.

 

[Snowytoshi]

Like some others here, I am against abortion. Apparently I am unlike some others with this view in that I reserve the right of each person to make this decision for themselves.

 

I am just as against trying to force someone to be a mother as I am personally against abortion.

 

I never expected to want an abortion and had the good luck to never be in a position where my opinion on this was challenged. I can't say with certainty that there was no situation in which I would have changed my mind, because I was never in that type of challenging situation.

 

I can't see where forcing a woman to have an unwanted child is good for either of them. The child can be born into a home where it is unwanted, be mistreated, spend a life feeling unworthy, be adopted into a home that isn't necessarily better, or wind up in the foster system, which again is not necessarily good for the child. Just being alive is not necessarily a good thing.

 

It is none of my business what other women choose to do in their own particular situation, which is not mine.

Thank you this is a wonderful way of looking at it and I wish more people thought like that