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Eluna I have to say real quick thank you for posting here, especially since more users are pro-choice. I have to say I agree with Slaskia and you with that last part of your post. I wish more pro-lifers were like you.

 

That said, I used to be a pro-lifer like you until I started doing some digging on my own. Including the fact that when pregencies go wrong the fetus/babies life and the mother's life may be in danger or non-existant.

 

One example is Ectopic pregnancy. The fetus does not make it to the womb and instead implants in the fallopian tube. This part of the reproductive tract is so small that as the child grows it bursts, killing the infant and endangering the life of the mother. Abortion right now is the only successful treatment for the condition. Any attempts to move the fetus to the uterus have failed.

 

I wish to talk more in depth with you about it, not because I want to change your mind, but because I know where you are coming from.

 

~brairtrainer

 

Edit: Adoption is an option but right now the adoption system is not very good. I know we have one person on the forum who works with kids in the system everyday who want to kill themselves or wish they had been aborted. Too many age out and too many don't get adopted or go to abusive homes. For me adoption, unless I know the couple, will never be an option for me. I don't even know if I can help out the situation by adopting. There is history in my family for major mental illness, and that may disqualify me.

If the child is dead, then abortion is absolutely understandable. I think I appreciate life because my mother had 4 eptopics before me. I was pure luck. And for that reason it literally brings me to tears that woman can toss away something so precious. I know my self worth, and I know I am better off on this planet than dead because 'oopsie'. If mom's life is in danger because of baby I understand. I am not going to tell a mother she can't live if it means killing her baby. I'm not sure about if baby is in danger though. Depends if that also puts mom in danger (how far along, what specifically is wrong...)

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Hmmm... it depends on what kind of defect. I don't think mental diseases/disorders are a good reason. If the child would be constantly in pain, then yes. But if it were something like a missing limb, downs, a missing sense, no.

Eluna may I ask another question? just to clear up your stance?

 

What if the child has its organs forming outside of the body and the parents can't pay (even with insurence) for the surgery? what if they can pay but the surgery has a 10% or similar success and/or survival rate?

 

From what I understand from you if the survival rate is low then you'd say the parents should be able to choose abortion, but if money is the only problem then the parents should not have the abortion option. Do I understand correctly?

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If the reason you're against abortion is because you consider a fetus a person, then the circumstances of how the fetus was formed shouldn't matter. If a woman is raped it doesn't make her fetus less of a baby than if she had consensual sex. When you say that "well, you had sex, now you have to deal with the consequences" it's more censorkip.gif-shaming than about the child. Also, I agree with an opinion that's been voiced in this thread before-abortion IS taking responsibility. It's admitting that you can't give the child the life it deserves.

 

Anti-abortion legislation isn't justified just because people think women shouldn't have sex for any reason other than reproduction. We can't legislate morals.

I did not go into the subject of rape for this reason. I cannot possibly give a response to "Well what if she was raped? Could she have an abortion then?" because I have not been there. As is, I would say if I were raped, I would keep the baby, but never being there before I can't answer. That would be like judging the english language when you only speak spanish, if that makes sense. So on the subject of rape, I am impartial.

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Eluna may I ask another question? just to clear up your stance?

 

What if the child has its organs forming outside of the body and the parents can't pay (even with insurence) for the surgery? what if they can pay but the surgery has a 10% or similar success and/or survival rate?

 

From what I understand from you if the survival rate is low then you'd say the parents should be able to choose abortion, but if money is the only problem then the parents should not have the abortion option. Do I understand correctly?

If the baby has something as risky as that, monetary or survival issues I think the parents should have the choice. If they can't afford it, they can't. The baby is unhealthy and will not survive without serious medical attention, and even with that, it's still risky.

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I did not go into the subject of rape for this reason. I cannot possibly give a response to "Well what if she was raped? Could she have an abortion then?" because I have not been there. As is, I would say if I were raped, I would keep the baby, but never being there before I can't answer. That would be like judging the english language when you only speak spanish, if that makes sense. So on the subject of rape, I am impartial.

The thing about legislation is that it's not just about what you would do. I understand that you don't know how you would act in such a situation-no one really does until it happens-but just because you would make one decision, does that mean that someone else shouldn't be able to make the other decision?

 

I suppose I should ask-are you just personally against abortion (wouldn't get one yourself) or do you think they should be banned?

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The thing about legislation is that it's not just about what you would do. I understand that you don't know how you would act in such a situation-no one really does until it happens-but just because you would make one decision, does that mean that someone else shouldn't be able to make the other decision?

 

I suppose I should ask-are you just personally against abortion (wouldn't get one yourself) or do you think they should be banned?

I think abortion should be banned excluding health issues. If you really want my opinion:

2 wrongs don't make a right. Let me give you the best explanation of how I see it. Say my best friend's brother raped me. And then, I killed my best friend, because I couldn't handle seeing her, it reminded me of the rape too much. Does that make sense? No. So why is killing an innocent fetus ok? In my opinion, it doesn't change anything, it just takes another life away.

The reason I did not want to bring this up is because now I expect some serious anger towards me, which is why I wanted to stay impartial about it. I haven't been there. But as I stand now, that's how I feel.

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I don't think destroying life fixes the problems a child may experience.

Honestly I just don't think it's the mother's choice after sex. Because now there are 2 hearts. 2 brains.

I admit I'm wary about those that get abortions when they don't use protection (and they know about it), but I'd rather have abortion available for everyone than to make it illegal.

 

That said, I am really disturbed by the fact that you think women should be nothing more than slaves to the thing growing in them, damn what the women want in life. Damn what mental/physical trauma that fetus will cause them. That you are essentually saying that women that never, ever want kids (like me) should just forget about sex completely, despite that it is an essentual part of bonding with our partners. That once we have that fetus, we are nothing more than an incubator.

 

No. Just, no. The 'rights' of the potential life growing inside should never trump the rights of the women that already living and has hopes, dreams, goals.

 

If it's a financial issue, there's adoption to consider. There are many couples out there dying to have a child but can't,....

As I finished writing that I read the rest of your post. While I agree that our system is screwed up and it needs some serious reform, not every child is miserable, and if I were a fetus, and I had a choice, I would try life, before being aborted. I think life should be given a chance.

 

Did you miss that only 2-3% percent of babies/kids ever get adopted per year in my last post? That's a lot of kids that end up 'aging out', especially if they are affected by some form of disability.

 

And on the finance thing, do you know how much it is carry a fetus to term? A lot more than getting an abortion if the mother is in straights financal wise (some one has a chart somewhere in this thread).

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I think abortion should be banned excluding health issues. If you really want my opinion:

2 wrongs don't make a right. Let me give you the best explanation of how I see it. Say my best friend's brother raped me. And then, I killed my best friend, because I couldn't handle seeing her, it reminded me of the rape too much. Does that make sense? No. So why is killing an innocent fetus ok? In my opinion, it doesn't change anything, it just takes another life away.

The reason I did not want to bring this up is because now I expect some serious anger towards me, which is why I wanted to stay impartial about it. I haven't been there. But as I stand now, that's how I feel.

Your friend is an independent person who is not taking away any of your rights. You could just stop seeing her if her presence mentally tormented you. You can't do that with a baby unless you abort it.

 

If you believe a mother's rights should be trumped because you value a human life, why does it make a difference if the baby was produced by rape? You don't need to be raped to have an opinion about this, it's black and white. How a baby came to be does not make it less of a baby or less deserving of having a life. Your stance seems to be more along the line of punishment. You believe women should be punished for having sex by being forced to give birth. I find that disgusting.

 

And why do you believe that a fetus should have more rights than any human being alive? No one is allowed to use another person's body without their consent. No one is even allowed to use a dead person's body without their consent. Why do you feel fetuses should have more rights to a mother's body than the mother?

Edited by Syaoransbear

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I admit I'm wary about those that get abortions when they don't use protection (and they know about it), but I'd rather have abortion available for everyone than to make it illegal.

 

That said, I am really disturbed by the fact that you think women should be nothing more than slaves to the thing growing in them, damn what the women want in life. Damn what mental/physical trauma that fetus will cause them. That you are essentually saying that women that never, ever want kids (like me) should just forget about sex completely, despite that it is an essentual part of bonding with our partners. That once we have that fetus, we are nothing more than an incubator.

 

No. Just, no. The 'rights' of the potential life growing inside should never trump the rights of the women that already living and has hopes, dreams, goals.

 

 

 

Did you miss that only 2-3% percent of babies/kids ever get adopted per year in my last post? That's a lot of kids that end up 'aging out', especially if they are affected by some form of disability.

 

And on the finance thing, do you know how much it is carry a fetus to term? A lot more than getting an abortion if the mother is in straights financal wise (some one has a chart somewhere in this thread).

And I would rather the opposite (excluding health issues). I want you to understand I am not saying you are a slave to your gender, and I understand what sex means to 2 life-long partners, but a baby is a risk you are taking. There is so much out there now that can keep it from happening. But there is risk. No, I'm not saying never have sex if you want a kid, I'm saying make sure you understand you are consenting the possibility of pregnancy when you have sex. A fetus is not 'potential' life. It is life. Cells are absorbing nutrients and reproducing. The definition of life. There is no question about it. It is 100% alive and 100% human.

Mistakes happen. Why should I have to pay for something you did? You're asking why you should have to pay for something I've become, but it really isn't the fetus' fault. I'm not blaming the mother either, it just happens. You act as if pregnancy and a child are the death of everything happy. But there are ways to work around financial issues, work issues, and etc.

I didn't miss that, I understand. Everyone wants a healthy white baby. I get that. But they are alive. Once 18 they are free to do what they want with life. Now, I still think that adoption and fostercare agencies need some serious reform. There shouldn't be such neglect or greed there.

My best friend is pregnant, 17, she lives in a trailer park with her mom and boyfriend, feeding off foodstamps. Her mom and her work at waffle house only making measly tips. She's going to have this baby. There are programs that will help you financially.

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Your friend is an independent person who is not taking away any of your rights. You could just stop seeing her if her presence mentally tormented you. You can't do that with a baby unless you abort it.

 

If you believe a mother's rights should be trumped because you value a human life, why does it make a difference if the baby was produced by rape? You don't need to be raped to have an opinion about this, it's black and white. How a baby came to be does not make it less of a baby or less deserving of having a life. Your stance seems to be more along the line of punishment. You believe women should be punished for having sex by being forced to give birth. I find that disgusting.

 

And why do you believe that a fetus should have more rights than any human being alive? No one is allowed to use another person's body without their consent. No one is even allowed to use a dead person's body without their consent. Why do you feel fetuses should have more rights to a mother's body than the mother?

You can adopt it out. This is why I didn't bring it up, because I'd be accused of that xd.png

As I said, I don't think rape= abortion. I think a rape-baby is just as valuable as a planned baby or a surprise baby. I'm not saying I need to be raped to disagree about rape-abortions, I'm saying I truly don't know my opinion because until you're there you cannot understand what it feels like to carry a baby like that. I just don't know, as I've said, can't you accept that? Otherwise, I think it should be kept.

I don't believe a fetus has moire rights than anyone else. I believe it should have the same rights as everyone else. And in my country that's life liberty and pursuit to happiness. My main right I am defending is life, because obviously liberty and pursuit can be considered conflicting for a mother with an unwanted child.

What part of "having sex is accepting the risk of a child" are you not understanding?

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A fetus is not 'potential' life. It is life. Cells are absorbing nutrients and reproducing. The definition of life. There is no question about it. It is 100% alive and 100% human.

Alive and a person are two very different things, though. Are you vegetarian? Would you take antibiotics? Would you squish a spider or bug in your home? Hell, even vegetables are alive. Just as alive as people. My point is that it's not life that really matters, it's sentience. A fetus is not sentient. If you believe a soul is granted at conception, that's different, but shouldn't be made law, because not everyone believes that.

 

Also, I'll wait for others to pull up the statistics that have been mentioned on this board before, but many children left in the foster system attempt suicide and there are quite a few people who wish they had been aborted. Life isn't always the choice the child would make. I'm not saying every child born to a mother considering abortion is better off dead, but they're also not all better off alive.

 

As I said, I don't think rape= abortion. I think a rape-baby is just as valuable as a planned baby or a surprise baby. I'm not saying I need to be raped to disagree about rape-abortions, I'm saying I truly don't know my opinion because until you're there you cannot understand what it feels like to carry a baby like that. I just don't know, as I've said, can't you accept that? Otherwise, I think it should be kept.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying. However, just like you can't know how you would feel until it happens, you can NEVER know how someone else feels. No two people have the same reaction to the same set of circumstances. Just because you feel one way doesn't mean that that's how everyone feels, therefore you can't make a universal decision for people.

 

Wanted to add, since you were worried about angry replies, that I hope I'm not coming off as angry, as I certainly don't intend to. I just enjoy debating my points! smile.gif

Edited by hydrargyrum

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Alive and a person are two very different things, though. Are you vegetarian? Would you take antibiotics? Would you squish a spider or bug in your home? Hell, even vegetables are alive. Just as alive as people. My point is that it's not life that really matters, it's sentience. A fetus is not sentient. If you believe a soul is granted at conception, that's different, but shouldn't be made law, because not everyone believes that.

 

Also, I'll wait for others to pull up the statistics that have been mentioned on this board before, but many children left in the foster system attempt suicide and there are quite a few people who wish they had been aborted. Life isn't always the choice the child would make. I'm not saying every child born to a mother considering abortion is better off dead, but they're also not all better off alive.

 

As I said, I don't think rape= abortion. I think a rape-baby is just as valuable as a planned baby or a surprise baby. I'm not saying I need to be raped to disagree about rape-abortions, I'm saying I truly don't know my opinion because until you're there you cannot understand what it feels like to carry a baby like that. I just don't know, as I've said, can't you accept that? Otherwise, I think it should be kept.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying. However, just like you can't know how you would feel until it happens, you can NEVER know how someone else feels. No two people have the same reaction to the same set of circumstances. Just because you feel one way doesn't mean that that's how everyone feels, therefore you can't make a universal decision for people.

Agreed. And not to be a smartass, but I don't take antibiotics and I don't kill bugs xd.png But yes, I get your point. However, food was meant to be eaten, dangers were meant to be killed. But your own offspring? Not so much. The sentient is instant for me, not to say I believe a soul is granted at conception or that I believe there is a soul, but I do believe as soon as the life starts it should be defended. You might see it as a clump of cells, but I see it as a miracle of life that shouldn't die because it's inconvenient.

Trust me, I understand. I wish it weren't so, I really do. I think it's terrible. I don't know if they'd really prefer death though, without at least experiencing life. It's from 0-18., and then you are free. I am not saying that kids should be miserable. I want to change that. But you have to give them a chance to experience good and bad. There are days when I hate myself and wonder why I was born. Those days are more common for those kids. But then there are days where I wonder how anyone could hate this place. There is so much to experience yet. Why take it away before they get a chance?

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No, I'm not saying never have sex if you want a kid, I'm saying make sure you understand you are consenting the possibility of pregnancy when you have sex.

Consent is ongoing. Consenting to sex does not mean consenting to pregnancy. (And if I were to get pregnant it would be from rape and therefore not consensual sex, since my boyfriend can't get me pregnant.)

 

A fetus is not 'potential' life. It is life. Cells are absorbing nutrients and reproducing. The definition of life. There is no question about it. It is 100% alive and 100% human.

Actually, there isn't a 100% guarantee it will become human. It might become a tumor, a calcified mass, absorb a twin... or it may not even survive the pregnancy.

 

You act as if pregnancy and a child are the death of everything happy.

I am tokophobic, the thought of anything growing inside my body like that completely disgusts me. For me, pregnancy would be the death of everything happy if forced to carry to term.

 

But they are alive. Once 18 they are free to do what they want with life.

Once they're 18, they're thrown into the world all by themselves.

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Also agreed that I cannot understand how each person will take it, which is why I wanted to remain impartial xd.png and no, you are not coming off as angry, just putting your opinion out there and challenging mine as youy should smile.gif

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As I've said before--health of the mother does not simply mean death. A pregnancy does a LOT of damage to her body and mind, most of it irreversible. Pregnancy does not end with a baby that can be kept or adopted; it can screw up a woman a lot. A woman who's raped--or, for that matter, a woman who had protected but consensual sex that resulted in pregnancy--shouldn't be punished in that way.

 

I do understand that pregnancy is not necessarily an awful thing; but to those who don't want a child, or to whom pregnancy is a huge risk, it can be. We've discussed upthread people who would have severe physical or mental issues if they got pregnant--is their health worth less than that of a fetus? My own mental illness--as well as the fact that pregnancy could only result from trauma since I'm in a relationship with a woman--would probably result in my death AND that of the fetus in a rather unpleasant way. Does that count towards your "health of the mother" clause?

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Consent is ongoing. Consenting to sex does not mean consenting to pregnancy. (And if I were to get pregnant it would be from rape and therefore not consensual sex, since my boyfriend can't get me pregnant.)

 

 

Actually, there isn't a 100% guarantee it will become human. It might become a tumor, a calcified mass, absorb a twin... or it may not even survive the pregnancy.

 

 

I am tokophobic, the thought of anything growing inside my body like that completely disgusts me. For me, pregnancy would be the death of everything happy if forced to carry to term.

 

 

Once they're 18, they're thrown into the world all by themselves.

I think it does. Maybe that's controversial as well. I would accept the fact I am taking the risk, because you cannot denied, fully educated, that there is a risk, right?

Are you sure that it is the embryo that becomes a tumor? I'd have to read up a bit before I argued that so I'll agree for now, BUT if it is a mass of cells that isn't human, feel free to abort it. In that sense, if it will never grow into anything more.

I guess it's good your bf can't get your pregnant then xd.png

And yes, they are,but at least they are not stuck.

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*browser crapped out so has to try again**grumble*

 

A fetus is not 'potential' life. It is life. Cells are absorbing nutrients and reproducing. The definition of life. There is no question about it. It is 100% alive and 100% human.

 

Unless it becomes a tumor/califed mass. Hell, some of those tumors even have a heartbeat.

 

You act as if pregnancy and a child are the death of everything happy

 

For some women, it is. There are women out there that cannot stand being pregnant…that would rather die than to stay pregnant if abortion is denied them.

 

I didn't miss that, I understand. Everyone wants a healthy white baby. I get that. But they are alive. Once 18 they are free to do what they want with life. Now, I still think that adoption and fostercare agencies need some serious reform. There shouldn't be such neglect or greed there.

 

And until it is fixed (along with complete, detailed sex education), abortion should stay legal for all reasons. That is the only time I, personally, would consider limiting abortion. I would also put in allowing women that know 100% for certain they don’t want kids to be allowed to have themselves sterilized before then(right now, it is largely restricted to those that are 35+ and have a couple of brats already, due to doctors being afraid of women suing them later).

 

My best friend is pregnant, 17, she lives in a trailer park with her mom and boyfriend, feeding off foodstamps. Her mom and her work at waffle house only making measly tips. She's going to have this baby. There are programs that will help you financially.

 

Good for her, but not everyone has the support or will to make it work. They shouldn’t be forced to either over a mistake. In fact, it’s not fair to the child to be brought into the world where it would be unwanted/abused/neglected/even killed. It’s far kinder, imo, for a potential child to be aborted than for it to likely go through that kind of hell.

 

I’d rather every child born be a wanted child in the first place. If I got pregnant, I would sure as hell get an abortion, as I know I would not be a good mother (I cannot STAND kids!) and I don’t trust the adoption system at all.

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Eluna, the people who come out of the system at age 18 are stuck in poverty as it is harder for them to complete a college education.

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I understand that the situation is brutal on kids and that's why reform is in order. It's not fair to them. But that doesn't mean we should condemn them to death.

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*browser crapped out so has to try again**grumble*

 

 

 

Unless it becomes a tumor/califed mass. Hell, some of those tumors even have a heartbeat.

 

 

 

For some women, it is. There are women out there that cannot stand being pregnant…that would rather die than to stay pregnant if abortion is denied them.

 

 

 

And until it is fixed (along with complete, detailed sex education), abortion should stay legal for all reasons. That is the only time I, personally, would consider limiting abortion. I would also put in allowing women that know 100% for certain they don’t want kids to be allowed to have themselves sterilized before then(right now, it is largely restricted to those that are 35+ and have a couple of brats already, due to doctors being afraid of women suing them later).

 

 

 

Good for her, but not everyone has the support or will to make it work. They shouldn’t be forced to either over a mistake. In fact, it’s not fair to the child to be brought into the world where it would be unwanted/abused/neglected/even killed. It’s far kinder, imo, for a potential child to be aborted than for it to likely go through that kind of hell.

 

I’d rather every child born be a wanted child in the first place. If I got pregnant, I would sure as hell get an abortion, as I know I would not be a good mother (I cannot STAND kids!) and I don’t trust the adoption system at all.

I'm right there with you on the crappy net. Now, see, that is my point. I want to reform other things before bring abortion to an end. Mainly education to prevent this whole mess, and then adoption agency/foster care.

I think aid can be found for mothers. She is in the worst situation possible in the financial sense. If you cannot afford things for baby (especially baby) there are people and places willing to help. I would never say there isn't any help anywhere, especially somewhere like America.

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The sentient is instant for me, not to say I believe a soul is granted at conception or that I believe there is a soul, but I do believe as soon as the life starts it should be defended. You might see it as a clump of cells, but I see it as a miracle of life that shouldn't die because it's inconvenient.

A fetus is not sentient, we know this for a fact. It can become sentient, but the potential to be and being are two different things. I don't believe that a fetus is equivalent to a person, therefore I very, very strongly believe that a woman should not be forced to give up her right to control what happens to her own body just because of a clump of cells that's not human yet, and she doesn't sacrifice that right just because she did something you don't agree with.

 

I also think you missed a point I made earlier-there ARE people who say they wish they had been aborted. Not everyone is happier alive. Once again, just because you're glad you're alive doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. I'm very glad I'm alive, but I really wouldn't be terribly sad if I had been aborted-I wouldn't be anything.

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A fetus is not sentient, we know this for a fact. It can become sentient, but the potential to be and being are two different things. I don't believe that a fetus is equivalent to a person, therefore I very, very strongly believe that a woman should not be forced to give up her right to control what happens to her own body just because of a clump of cells that's not human yet, and she doesn't sacrifice that right just because she did something you don't agree with.

 

I also think you missed a point I made earlier-there ARE people who say they wish they had been aborted. Not everyone is happier alive. Once again, just because you're glad you're alive doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. I'm very glad I'm alive, but I really wouldn't be terribly sad if I had been aborted-I wouldn't be anything.

Excuse me, I was thinking 'sentiment' xd.png

But you notice they only say that after being born? After knowing what it was like? This is an odd, pointless argument (on my side, not yours). I think I might be done for the night, since we are going in circles and I am quite mentally tired.

Agree to disagree. Unless medical issues are involved a baby has the right to live in my opinion. It is not the mother's choice to make even if it is inside her, it is a separate being.

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I'm right there with you on the crappy net. Now, see, that is my point. I want to reform other things before bring abortion to an end. Mainly education to prevent this whole mess, and then adoption agency/foster care.

Yes, but you want it to be ended completely, it seems (save for likely death of the mother if I remember right). I want it to stay available in general for those that did try to prevent it in the first place via BC. I'm still on the fence though over those that are being completely irresponsible with their sex life, but those, staticially, are the minority of those that get abortions.

 

I think aid can be found for mothers. She is in the worst situation possible in the financial sense. If you cannot afford things for baby (especially baby) there are people and places willing to help. I would never say there isn't any help anywhere, especially somewhere like America.

 

But what about those that cannot mentally/physically handle the pregancy itself (I don't mean lethal cases either)? Would they be allowed to get an abortion? Or would you (essentually) tie them down and force them to have the baby anyway?

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Not just death but health issues in general that are severe. If it were causing you mental harm, such as depression (mutilation, suicidal thoughts, hysteria) an abortion is understandable. I do not mean harm to mom. Really my main argument, like you, is those who aren't careful. But I also think those who are careful and (censorkip.gif happens) get pregnant should give it a chance. I hope you understand if it seems I'm changing my opinion, I'm not, I've never had some of these arguments, so it's really a lot to think about smile.gif

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It's good that you are willing to discuss it and learn what other's opinions might be. That's talking with people instead of at them.

 

I think most people agree that the idea of having to get an abortion is, not fun. No matter how much someone may need it, it's surgery at the very least. Not many people like going to the doctor for a cold, much less something so much more intimate. And I think many of us totally agree the education system in the US needs major work. But there are many people that fight against sex ed, so just doing that part isn't easy.

 

Some sad facts about the US in particular.

 

What we do not support - unlike almost every other developed nation - are worker's rights and healthy limits on labour. We are one of the only four nations on earth - along with Liberia, Sierra Leone and Papua New Guinea - without federally mandated maternity leave. Parental leave is correlated with lower child poverty rates, improved child health, greater parental involvement, longer breastfeeding and higher maternal employment. But we have no national paid leave policy for parents.

 

We are also the only industrialised nation that does not mandate paid vacation and sick days.

 

Sad world wide facts

Four UN agencies interviewed 10,000 men across seven countries in the Asia-Pacific, with startling results.

 

One in four said they had raped a woman or girl, while one in 25 admitted to taking part in gang rape.

 

Other sad facts:

Maternal mortality statistics underscore how societies have failed women, especially young women in developing countries. As many as 529,000 women die each year from complications of pregnancy and childbirth.[1] Pregnancy is the leading cause of death for young women ages 15 through 19.

 

    Adolescents age 15 through 19 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy or child birth as those over age 20; girls under age 15 are five times more likely to die.[2,6,7]

 

    Each year, at least two million young women in developing countries undergo unsafe abortion.[6] Unsafe abortion can have devastating consequences, including cervical tearing, perforated uterus, hemorrhage, chronic pelvic infection, infertility, and death.[7,8]

 

    In Nigeria, complications of abortion account for 72 percent of all deaths in young women under age 19; moreover, half (50 percent) of all maternal deaths result from illegal abortion among Nigerian adolescents.[9]

 

    Infants of adolescents are at increased risk for death. In fact, the infants of adolescent mothers are more likely to die before their first birthday than are the infants of older mothers.[10]

 

    Complications during childbirth account for almost 25 percent of newborn deaths.[11] Preterm delivery and low birth weight are other reasons for deaths among infants born to adolescent mothers.[10]

 

Edit:

And for good measure, todays idiocy from the FRC, which hosts and endorses a good many of our conservative republican party.

 

Family Research Council senior fellow Pat Fagan appeared alongside Tony Perkins, the head of FRC, on Washington Watch yesterday to discuss his article which claims that Eisenstadt v. Baird, the 1972 case that overturned a Massachusetts law banning the distribution of contraceptives to unmarried people, may rank “as the single most destructive decision in the history of the Court.”

 

Fagan argued that the Supreme Court decision was wrong because it effectively meant that “single people have the right to engage in sexual intercourse.” “Society never gave young people that right, functioning societies don’t do that, they stop it, they punish it, they corral people, they shame people, they do whatever,” Fagan said.

 

In finale, I agree abortion sucks. It isn't fair. But, neither is the world we live in. And since we don't live in a picture perfect world, I would not make it illegal because there is no feasible way to make the law so that it would be just in every case.

Edited by Vhale

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