Abortion

[Infinis]

*Claps* This. All of this.

 

I'd also like to add that in my country and I think America, sterilization is illegal (bare exceptions) until you hit 35 years and have two kids. And I really don't understand why it isn't allowed sooner. Why should people who know that they'll never want to have children live in fear of getting pregnant?

Because there are people who think they don't want children at one point and later in life they do want children. And I imagine the physician doing the sterilization doesn't want to be sued for malpractice if a sterilized woman's biological clock turns on and she decides she wants kids. (Although at the same time, I figure a good lawyer or three could draw up some sort of contract that would prevent suits against the physician in this case as well.)

 

Also part of the reason is probably hormones, which is probably why they won't do it for young people, because we need the hormones.

 

As for the law preventing abortion in the case of genetic defects, what? I mean what? Why? There are SO MANY genetic issues I can think of that would make so insanely difficult not only for the affected child but for the mother. And some of those disorders are fatal, like Tay-Sachs. And if I recall correctly children with defects and disorders are pretty much never adopted if they're put up for adoption. D:

 

3. Similar to sterilization, all risks and the use of abortion should be taught at an earlier point, perhaps even in schools to dispel all of this bunch of hooplah you hear in the halls these days. I've seen people who still believe in the coat-hanger thing. S'not how it works, seriously. I feel that much of the issue is in lack of education, so teaching about this procedure as well as what it entails could be very beneficial to our society, because without this knowledge it still appears as a culturally shameful and dark thing when, really, it's meant to be helpful for those who really can't care for or handle a child or pregnancy.

 

This and your seventh point. You win at life.

 

5. I fully believe that shaming or ridiculing a woman over abortion, sterilization, or the need for contraceptives is shameful in of itself. Those who feel they can dictate and judge another for what they do with their own body should have to experience such a thing themselves and not be exempted, as this is sadly exactly what is happening with all of these male law-makers making it exceedingly difficult for a woman to maintain control over her own being. For those who feel that abortion should be banned, imagine this scenario; A law has passed to prevent obesity in the populace at large. Your intake of food is now going to be regulated, and the government is going to control how much and what you eat for the rest of your life. That is the jist of preventing easily available contraceptives and abortion. Your life is now under the whim of someone else, and don't say that it's the same situation with the fetus, because it's already dependent on the mother and pretty much just a budding batch of cells made from her own cells with a tiny chromosome say from the male sperm.

 

All of this type of thing is actually reminding me very strongly of The Handmaid's Tale.

[Slaskia]

Post of awesome!

I think I am in love....*looks for gender* damn, no gender icon....

 

*ahem* Anyway....This, this, this! I agree with everything you've said!

[tenyasyugan]

I just do my best to be honest about these things, because that seems to be lacking these days. I'm glad I struck a cord with you all. Also, if someone does have a differing opinion, I would love to have a healthy discussion, because I really do enjoy hearing what others have to say and will take what they say into consideration, so long as they do the same with what I say.

[catstaff]

Also part of the reason is probably hormones, which is probably why they won't do it for young people, because we need the hormones.

 

Just for the record, neither vasectomy (for men) nor tubal ligation (for women) involves any procedure that will scramble hormonal production. There is no reason to refuse anyone access to sterilization because "they need the hormones" no matter what age the person requesting the procedure might be.

 

In the case of a vasectomy, the vas deferens are severed and the ends blocked to prevent sperm from entering the seminal fluid. Said sperm are eventually broken down and reabsorbed by the body. Testosterone and other hormones are still produced and released into the bloodstream as normal.

 

In the case of tubal ligation, the fallopian tubes are severed and the ends blocked to prevent the sperm and egg from reaching one another. The ovaries are not removed, nor is the uterus. Estrogen and progesterone are produced as normal by the ovaries.

[PointOfOrigin]

Because there are people who think they don't want children at one point and later in life they do want children. And I imagine the physician doing the sterilization doesn't want to be sued for malpractice if a sterilized woman's biological clock turns on and she decides she wants kids. (Although at the same time, I figure a good lawyer or three could draw up some sort of contract that would prevent suits against the physician in this case as well.)

True. People do change their mind. But suing the doctor on the grounds of something you did out of your own will would be easy to prevent with a law.

[KageSora]

The thing I love about all these sorts of bills is that they're signed into law by the same sort of people who want to limit aid for those who are unemployed, who limit contraception...

 

Ugh.

Honestly, if anybody's going to talk of conspiracy theories, I'd say the pro-choice side has the bigger right to accuse the pro-life side of it because of this.

 

I mean, force a woman who can't afford it to have a kid and she'll likely end up in poverty. Slash programs that support people in poverty, and she'll likely end up staying in poverty--possibly for the rest of her life--as opposed to managing to get out of poverty. Keep her in poverty, and you have power over her by your money--because let's be honesty, the people with the money control things more than they should.

 

Keep them in poverty with restrictions, and you can, if you're good, spin it as they're only in poverty because they're lazy. Which shames them and makes other people not want to help "lazy" people like them. Which you can then use to your advantage--such as "you'll get help IF you do this thing that will benefit me".

 

 

I mean, I'm not big on conspiracy theories--but I'm just sayin' that it'd seem like the pro-choice crowd would have more ammo based in what happens than the pro-life crowd.

[Spelunker]

Ugh, reading all this stuff makes me doubt humanity.

 

It's been a very long while [a few years?] since I last posted in this thread and my opinions have matured over time [whee, adulthood].

 

1. If a woman wishes to be sterilized, there should have already been programs in place to inform her of not just the surgery risks but how such a procedure could also be eventually reversed, much like some vasectomies. I know that some forms of tube-tying are permanent and others are less so, in some instances depending on the official doing it, and I feel that all of this should be explained so that a woman who, say, seriously wants to be sterile for the next ten years with near certainty of there being no accidental pregnancy, but also plans on having a kid later in life, should be aware of any reverse procedures and whether or not they're possible. My mother, sadly, had a botched tube-tying and the sheer amount of scar-tissue prevents her from getting it reversed and having a child as she would like with my step-father, which has stressed her out quite a bit as she really would like to have a family with him outside of him having adopted my sister and I.

 

2. Abortion, in the case of a single-parent, should be up to only that parent. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard and people I've seen who've had to go through the dilemma of having a horrible partner who wishes nothing to do with them but would force them to have a child because they feel entitled to it, even though they would not be supporting the carrying parent. The way the current system not only pushes a woman into having a child against her will but also shames her for it is disgusting.

 

3. Similar to sterilization, all risks and the use of abortion should be taught at an earlier point, perhaps even in schools to dispel all of this bunch of hooplah you hear in the halls these days. I've seen people who still believe in the coat-hanger thing. S'not how it works, seriously. I feel that much of the issue is in lack of education, so teaching about this procedure as well as what it entails could be very beneficial to our society, because without this knowledge it still appears as a culturally shameful and dark thing when, really, it's meant to be helpful for those who really can't care for or handle a child or pregnancy.

 

4. I promote the distinction between a fetus and a living human being. I know very well that my mother went through two miscarriages and an abortion before having me, and I know she debated on having a second abortion with me. I don't hate her for this, nor do I find it shameful. She had a very undependable husband, a poor financial situation, and a very unsupportive family. Although I'm proud of her for raising my sister and me pretty much on her own, I am sad that she is ashamed to admit to what she had to do as a young woman to try and keep her life together. I know through studying over the years that a fetus does not equal a baby. It has the chance of being a baby, but it also has the chance of becoming a cyst. Or a tumor. Or just being reabsorbed. Sure, you can argue that the cells are alive, but I don't feel that makes a whole living being. And, even then, until it exits the womb that mass of cells is the mother's mass of cells. Not anyone else's, and it surely isn't independent.

 

5. I fully believe that shaming or ridiculing a woman over abortion, sterilization,  or the need for contraceptives is shameful in of itself. Those who feel they can dictate and judge another for what they do with their own body should have to experience such a thing themselves and not be exempted, as this is sadly exactly what is happening with all of these male law-makers making it exceedingly difficult for a woman to maintain control over her own being. For those who feel that abortion should be banned, imagine this scenario; A law has passed to prevent obesity in the populace at large. Your intake of food is now going to be regulated, and the government is going to control how much and what you eat for the rest of your life. That is the jist of preventing easily available contraceptives and abortion. Your life is now under the whim of someone else, and don't say that it's the same situation with the fetus, because it's already dependent on the mother and pretty much just a budding batch of cells made from her own cells with a tiny chromosome say from the male sperm.

 

6. In the case of a couple disagreeing over keeping a child, I feel that the partner carrying the child should have the heaviest weight in their decision. In this situation, I will make the hopeful assumption that both partners are well versed in the actual procedure of abortion and contraceptives. The reason I give the carrier the most weight is for the fact that if they feel that they can't handle a child, they can't handle a child. Why people believe that if you force someone to have a kid they'll do great with that kid is beyond me. While I agree the other partner does hold significance to the equation, they are not the one who will endure the physical trauma of pregnancy and delivery as well as the initial care of the infant. From my understanding, the United States is actually one of the only "developed" countries that does not have an official form of maternal leave. Comparatively, Canada has around 52 weeks of maternal leave that can be expended between both partners of the relationship, meaning the mother could have half of the leave and the other partner could have the other half.

 

7. In response the the ongoing laws against contraceptives and abortion, go read a book and talk to some actual women who haven't been shamed into a goddang corner thanks to you and get educated. EDUCATION is what is severely lacking. Education can lead to respect of a subject, respect for individuals who partake in a given subject, at the very least understanding of opposing views. Even if you view continues to differ from that of others, please try to at least read about their opinion so you don't come off as a pretentious butt. Sure, you're allowed to continue to disagree, but you're not allowed to be ignorant.

 

I'll add more of my thoughts as they come. For now, I think this is a suitable summary of my feelings.

This is perfect.

 

Honestly, if anybody's going to talk of conspiracy theories, I'd say the pro-choice side has the bigger right to accuse the pro-life side of it because of this.

 

I mean, force a woman who can't afford it to have a kid and she'll likely end up in poverty.  Slash programs that support people in poverty, and she'll likely end up staying in poverty--possibly for the rest of her life--as opposed to managing to get out of poverty.  Keep her in poverty, and you have power over her by your money--because let's be honesty, the people with the money control things more than they should.

 

Keep them in poverty with restrictions, and you can, if you're good, spin it as they're only in poverty because they're lazy.  Which shames them and makes other people not want to help "lazy" people like them.  Which you can then use to your advantage--such as "you'll get help IF you do this thing that will benefit me".

 

 

I mean, I'm not big on conspiracy theories--but I'm just sayin' that it'd seem like the pro-choice crowd would have more ammo based in what happens than the pro-life crowd.

So is this.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Spelunker

[vintageandroid]

Kagesora, the more I read from you, the more intensely attractive I find you. In all seriousness though? I do subscribe to what could be called conspiracy theories starring some of the pro-life side--namely, controlling women/people with wombs, and yes, quite possibly controlling the poor. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist person, but, well . . . considering how frequently the "This is her fault she should live with the consequences!" (translation: "Good girls keep their legs closed!") argument is used, it's hard not to believe that.

 

Tenyasyugen, you are also incredibly dreamy.

[KageSora]

Kagesora, the more I read from you, the more intensely attractive I find you. In all seriousness though? I do subscribe to what could be called conspiracy theories starring some of the pro-life side--namely, controlling women/people with wombs, and yes, quite possibly controlling the poor. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist person, but, well . . . considering how frequently the "This is her fault she should live with the consequences!" (translation: "Good girls keep their legs closed!") argument is used, it's hard not to believe that.

 

Tenyasyugen, you are also incredibly dreamy.

Why thank you~

 

Honestly, I think if there IS a conspiracy, it's done by those in charge who are manipulating their followers just as much as they're trying to manipulate those they want to control--no followers means no support which means no way to control the masses/harder to control the masses, after all.

 

Many pro-life people who aren't in positions of power are decent people who are willing to civilly agree to disagree even when debate gets heated. Or they're willing to consider the other side even if their personal views don't change.

 

But the people in power drum up support with all kinds of underhanded tactics (and I find this to be a general case where politics are concerned, not just with abortion) and work their followers into a frenzy, keeping them blindly supporting a cause that a lot of times they're honestly uneducated/wrongly educated about.

 

Which is really sad.

[Fuzzbucket]

I want to add that it's not even just about being unable to care for a baby once it's born, but also not being able to properly care for it (and yourself) while it's growing. Women have to change the way they eat, the way thy sleep, work, change or stop medications, etc. while they're pregnant. I see far too many people advocate for adoption as if pregnancy was nothing more than a nine month waiting room.

Not to mention losing her job, which REALLY helps with the ability to raise the child. (a LOT of companies find ways to get rid of pregnant women. But not "pregnant" men )

[brairtrainer]

Hey all I need help with a really unusual request. I have to find an article or piece of work I disagree with for my english class. Would anyone know where there is a persuasive article that holds most if not all of the pro-life points? I need it so I can write my paper (which will be pro-choice).

[Snowytoshi]

Hey all I need help with a really unusual request. I have to find an article or piece of work I disagree with for my english class. Would anyone know where there is a persuasive article that holds most if not all of the pro-life points? I need it so I can write my paper (which will be pro-choice).

There's this article: http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#does-...n-at-conception

[brairtrainer]

Snowytoshi thanks for the site, unfortuneatly I don't think my prof will count it as an article but I'll keep it in mind.

[HollyTheColliegirl]

There's this article: http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#does-...n-at-conception

That article actually made me laugh at how ridiculous it is.

[prpldrgnfr]

I couldn't finish it-the stoopid made my head hurt.

[Spelunker]

I couldn't finish it-the stoopid made my head hurt.

Agreed. That is... so one sided. *facepalm*

[VeeVeeLa]

They kept bringing up God....Can't they come up with a better reason than that? .w.

[brairtrainer]

They kept bringing up God....Can't they come up with a better reason than that? .w.

Nope. Even my pro-life parents aren't able to, and typically they're able to see more sides of the issue then just religious.

[Fuzzbucket]

Nope. Even my pro-life parents aren't able to, and typically they're able to see more sides of the issue then just religious.

That's because there IS actually no good reason, but you can't ARGUE about God, cos there are no actual FACTS to base it all on !

[eritated]

They kept bringing up God....Can't they come up with a better reason than that? .w.

I was thinking the same. They obviously cannot, considering there are no other reasons. This article made me want to bang my head against a wall.

[brairtrainer]

Well my prof has given me another place to look so thanks for the help everyone. I may journey back if I need places to get facts to back me up.

[Vhale]

Would they want you do do a current events thing? There was a snafu in the Phillipines today where the Catholic Church is doing the same thing there that they are doing in the US. Working to prevent women from getting contraceptive care and prevent family planning.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/philippine-top-court...-020705159.html

[Slaskia]

I don't know how many people read 'Dear Abby', but one of todays letters is about this topic. Thought it may be interesting to read for you folks.

 

Daughter's decision to end pregnancy torments mom

[brairtrainer]

@Vhale They might. What my prof is looking for is an article that talks from the side I'm not on (pro-life/pro-birth) and then to argue against it with the help of a pro-choice article. Unfortuneatly the place my insturcter recomended us looking didn't help so I'll take a look at your article and see.

 

Edit: unfortunatly Vhale that doesn't help me, thanks for trying though

 

@Slaskia I read that today and it hit home with me. While I've never had an abortion my mother is pro-life while I'm pro-choice so I'm living in a similar situation.

Edited March 21, 2013 by brairtrainer

[Fuzzbucket]

Anything here any use ? there are some real shockers:

 

http://www.wnho.net/pro_life_news.htm

 

like these:

 

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/new-resea...begins-in-utero

 

http://www.newswithviews.com/Johnston/patrick142.htm

 

And elsewhere I found this:

 

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/...e-you-very-sick

 

THAT should do it....