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See this is exactly what I mean! Maybe I'll side with the pro-life because you pro-choice are being censorkip.gif***s. That's Sith logic: "if your not with me your against me". I don't like it. At lease the pro-life don't say that. Gawd! You people get so pissy about this. I would expect you people to do the same. If all people named Mtntopview were illegal, I'd expect YOU to hold up the law, even though it wouldn't be fair.

Pissy about this? Yes you could say I am. But maybe its because I know that taking birth control could harm me. That if I was raped (hypothetically) I have no real protection against it because in my state Plan B and other emergency contraception is perscription only and the pharmasist can refuse to give it to me if its against their beliefs.

 

Maybe I'm trying to look after my health, my future so any kid I decide to bring into this world will be in the best shape possible that I can provide. Having a kid now would screw it up.

 

Also you're looking for a way it affects you? One word: WELFARE. Single women and people who have kids at a young age are more likely to be in this system because they can't make enough money to pay for everything because they are caring for a child. Many don't finish High School. By allowing abortions and ways to get a hold of birth control so people can be responsible or protect themselves from contraceptive falure you decrease the amount of money that needs to go out which frees up tax dollars for stuff you want.

 

 

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If you're not for legalization, you might as well be against it.

 

And you're a shining example of why men shouldn't be allowed to have any kind of say in laws that govern the health of a woman.

 

Also, your statements seem very callous and I feel very sorry for any women in your life because you really don't seem to give two censorkip.gif s about them.

 

 

No, the argument is important.

 

If it's made illegal, then we will fight to change the laws--laws are not permanent, unchanging things.  If that were the case alcohol would still be banned.

 

The whole point of a government that the people vote on is to let the voices of the people be heard--and those voices change over time, thus laws change to reflect that.  There will always be some politicians will try to pass laws that censorkip.gif over the average person just so they can line their pockets.  That's why it's important that we fight for our rights, and try to get laws that hurt the average person changed.

 

Or are you unaware of the people trying to change the laws to make abortion illegal?  Because we fight to stop them from killing more people.

 

Laws are more like...  They're a hybrid of absolute rules and guidelines.  That's why we have judges to interpret them--because they're not always 100% clear-cut and absolute.  We take the gray areas into account, because this world isn't black and white.

 

Yes, you should follow the laws when you can--but there are times when the laws are harmful, and you need to break them for the greater good.  That's one of the ways change happens--people realize that laws are unjust and they fight them, refusing to follow laws that are put in place specifically to oppress.  If nobody ever dared break a law in the name of the greater good, then we would have a very, very, VERY horrible world.

Tis person seems to have a lot of hate, pro-choises, a lot of sexist and rude comments, I think this article is starting to get unruly, please go back to being civil.

 

 

 

 

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. 

 

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

And cuz I'm smart, when they come for me, I'll be off in the mountains, impossible to find and fully capable on surviving. I have plans, and I really want to remain neutral. But it seems both sides have created a new faction, the pro-I don't give a censorkip.gif's, and labeled them as the most evil of all.

Edited by Mtntopview

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I'm trying to say that the argument is mute. If its illegal dont censorkip.gif* about it. If it is legal, live with it.

You mean moot? If you can't be helpful, at least be literate.

 

Anyway, I think others have said the main point: complacency is a dangerous position to take. Laws change, but only if people insist; that's why we have things like "right to peaceful protest" and such. Keep lawful neutral to the game table and try to have a personal opinion.

 

However, considering you're pretty cheerful about ticking people off and then complaining when anyone calls you on it, I'm kinda suspecting you're a troll and that we're just playing into your amusement by responding, but whatever.

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Not true, I was trying to say that people should just leave the law as is, and obey what is dictated by the government. It's not my problem? I'm not a woman or a Christian, why should I give a damn?

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Not true, I was trying to say that people should just leave the law as is, and obey what is dictated by the government. It's not my problem? I'm not a woman or a Christian, why should I give a damn?

Do you have friends? Are any of them female?

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Not true, I was trying to say that people should just leave the law as is, and obey what is dictated by the government. It's not my problem? I'm not a woman or a Christian, why should I give a damn?

So you would be prefectly OK if blacks were still slaves and women didn't have the right to vote? That was the law back in the day, after all....

 

Laws change and it's up to us citizens to 'give enough of a damn' to want to change the unjust ones.

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Because you're a human being? I assume you're a man, which means there are probably women or girls around you whom you care about. How about them? Are you concerned at all for their potential wellbeing in relation to this topic? Does it matter to you that someone you care about could one day die because of restrictive legislation?

 

I'm guessing you're white. Do you think black and other non-white people should have just shut up and listened to what the government told them-that they were subhuman and thus it was perfectly fine to enslave them and/or otherwise deprive them of basic human rights? Do you think we should go back to that because it was at one point "what the government dictated"?

 

 

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Gawd this argument makes me feel like this:

user posted image

Spry for poor quality, I'm not the best artist.

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Gawd this argument makes me feel like this:

 

Spry for poor quality, I'm not the best artist.

And your arguments make me feel like this:

 

user posted image

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Not true, I was trying to say that people should just leave the law as is, and obey what is dictated by the government. It's not my problem? I'm not a woman or a Christian, why should I give a damn?

Would you be saying the same if a law was put in place which you really disagreed with? I doubt you would just leave it alone "because that's what the government says". You would certainly give a damn then ^.^

 

And your arguments make me feel like this: 

 

user posted image

 

Exactly how I feel.

Edited by Erica8798

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leave the law as is, and obey what is dictated by the government

 

One thing on this bit: in the US at least...the government is supposed to obey us, the citizens. The government is 'supposed' to work for us, not the other way around ('supposed' to as it sure doesn't seem that way anymore).

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Tis person seems to have a lot of hate, pro-choises, a lot of sexist and rude comments, I think this article is starting to get unruly, please go back to being civil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And cuz I'm smart, when they come for me, I'll be off in the mountains, impossible to find and fully capable on surviving. I have plans, and I really want to remain neutral. But it seems both sides have created a new faction, the pro-I don't give a censorkip.gif's, and labeled them as the most evil of all.

So, it's civil to tell people to suck it up when laws censorkip.gif them over? Good to know. Next time people complain about being legally denied equal rights, I'll be sure to tell them to get over themselves~ I'll be sure to tell my best friend that he needs to just suck it up and marry a woman if he wants to have a family. He'll be thrilled to give up on this foolish "trying to change society for the better" garbage and be so happy to just accept his place as a second class citizen!

 

And it's not sexist to think women should just shut up and accept being second class citizens? It's not hateful or rude to imply that people are lesser because they're not obeying laws that actively hurt them?

 

All sarcasm aside, you're not really neutral. By not supporting certain things, it's as good as actively fighting against it. If everybody stood by, we'd never get anywhere. Change requires people being smart enough to see what's wrong, and being brave enough to say that it's wrong. And if you refuse to take a side in something like this, then you're neither smart nor brave.

 

Yes, some things it's okay to be neutral on--or at least to be neutral but keeping an eye on things so you can be informed so if needed you can take a side. But in politics, it's often the case that you cannot be neutral.

 

And you know, you won't be impossible to find. Especially if, by your reasoning of suck it up and obey the law, you'd have to turn yourself over when they made a law that screwed you over. tongue.gif You'd have no choice but to turn yourself in, or be a hypocrite.

 

By standing aside and doing nothing, you are not being neutral--you are allowing those who actively seek to oppress others the means to continue doing so. Which is almost as bad as actively oppressing people yourself. It's just how it works.

 

I'm guessing you either hate your mother, or see her as a second class citizen who doesn't deserve the rights you as a man have. Because that's what your attitude says--you don't care about women demanding laws be made and changed to make it easier for them to maintain their health, so...

 

Now, as a man, here's how this affects you:

 

People who shouldn't be having kids have kids then go on welfare. People who are in an unfortunate situation and end up with a child before they're ready then go on welfare.

 

Both of these are supported by your tax dollars--tax dollars that could be spent on improving and maintaining roads, or educational standards.

 

If you're a decent human, you should want children to not be born only to be told they're not wanted. Abortion can help prevent some of these cases.

 

Men who father children that aren't wanted may be forced to pay child support--if the mother had been able to abort, then the man wouldn't be forced to pay for a kid that wasn't wanted and now can't be supported.

 

However, considering you're pretty cheerful about ticking people off and then complaining when anyone calls you on it, I'm kinda suspecting you're a troll and that we're just playing into your amusement by responding, but whatever.

I'd agree with that, but I also think it's something that needs to be addressed because there are so many people who aren't trolls who think the same way who need to see what others say to that.

 

I hate feeding the trolls, but when there are non-trolls who share their opinions... Best start the arguments somewhere, I suppose.

 

And your arguments make me feel like this: 

 

user posted image

They make me more feel like this:

 

user posted image

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I'd agree with that, but I also think it's something that needs to be addressed because there are so many people who aren't trolls who think the same way who need to see what others say to that.

Oh, I do see your point. And to be fair, I don't have an issue with some level of neutrality--it's this sheer and insistent apathy and complacency that just gets under my skin. And the smugness. And the refusing to listen to anyone.

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By standing aside and doing nothing, you are not being neutral--you are allowing those who actively seek to oppress others the means to continue doing so.  Which is almost as bad as actively oppressing people yourself.  It's just how it works.

Reminds me of this:

 

"Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
Edited by Erica8798

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I can respect someone's individual stance of neutrality, but I don't respect being told that because something is illegal I should just suck it up and obey the law instead of trying to fight to change it.

 

You can be neutral all you want, but how dare you force neutrality and inaction on others who actually have beliefs.

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Oh, I do see your point.  And to be fair, I don't have an issue with some level of neutrality--it's this sheer and insistent apathy and complacency that just gets under my skin.  And the smugness.  And the refusing to listen to anyone.

Agreed. Especially since there ARE some places where it's not hurtful to be neutral. But lawmaking is rarely the place for neutrality.

 

Being neutral isn't inherently better than picking a side.

 

Reminds me of this:

 

"Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."

Yep. There's plenty of quotes that say the same.

 

And they're all true.

 

 

@Syaoransbear:

 

Yes, agreed. I may not agree with being neutral, but I'll respect the right to remain neutral--until I start getting told I should just suck it up and be neutral too, because how dare I take offense to the idea of a law screwing me over unfairly.

Edited by KageSora

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In this case it is, at least for me. All I'm saying is protest all you wants just keep it away from me, for the innocent (in this case neutral) are always the worst affected by these arguments.

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In this case it is, at least for me. All I'm saying is protest all you wants just keep it away from me, for the innocent (in this case neutral) are always the worst affected by these arguments.

No. YOU came in here and started this up. YOU put yourself in the middle of the debate. If you want it kept away from you, stay out of the thread it's being discussed in. The real, live women and girls affected by anti-abortion legislation are the innocent people hurt in this, not some internet know-it-all sitting at his keyboard who will never, ever be directly, bodily affected.

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I didn't say I didn't have an option, all I'm saying is I dislike this issue and wish no part of it because it causes this kind of hatred. It causes Americans to fight Americans. And asking why pro choice is even fighting? Abortion is already legal, so it should stay that way, because that's what America decided.

 

 

And the innocent as I said WERE THE NEUTRALS, who have to wory about their next door neighbors and best friends fighting to the death. The "innocent women affected" are already put on pro choice or life side. And thus, are no longer neutral. This argument is stupid because America at large is hurt the most. And I'm trying to stay neutral by saying neither are good.

 

If you wanted me to take an opinion it'd be pro choice, because its not my body, I don't give a censorkip.gif. But I lean pro life because they are not sexist.

Edited by Mtntopview

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I didn't say I didn't have an option, all I'm saying is I dislike this issue and wish no part of it because it causes this kind of hatred. It causes Americans to fight Americans. And asking why pro choice is even fighting? Abortion is already legal, so it should stay that way, because that's what America decided.

We fight because there are other Americans that want to make it illegal, which we don't want as it will ultimately cause more harm than good.

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In this case it is, at least for me. All I'm saying is protest all you wants just keep it away from me, for the innocent (in this case neutral) are always the worst affected by these arguments.

If you stir up a hornet nest, you don't get to cry about how unfair it is when you get stung because you're not a poor innocent victim.

 

That's exactly what you've done here--you intentionally came into a topic that you want nothing to do with and stirred things up, then decided to play the poor victim being jumped on when people argued with you.

 

You don't want any part in something? It's not our responsibility to keep it out of your sight--it's your responsibility to stay away from it.

Edited by KageSora

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If you stir up a hornet nest, you don't get to cry about how unfair it is when you get stung because you're not a poor innocent victim.

 

That's exactly what you've done here--you intentionally came into a topic that you want nothing to do with and stirred things up, then decided to play the poor victim being jumped on when people argued with you.

 

You don't want any part in something?  It's not our responsibility to keep it out of your sight--it's your responsibility to stay away from it.

I'm not complaining about the hate at me, I'm complaining at the fact that you ate at all. If this is to he discussed and stuff is to get done, then it needs to be done civilly.

 

What I hate seing is Americans fighting each other, I hate to say this, but we need another Wrld war to stop us from killing each other.

Edited by Mtntopview

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I'm not complaining about the hate at me, I'm complaining at the fact that you ate at all. If this is to he discussed and stuff is to get done, then it needs to be done civilly.

 

What I hate seing is Americans fighting each other, I hate to say this, but we need another Wrld war to stop us from killing each other.

If those of us who are pro-choice don't fight, then it will become illegal because the pro-life side is fighting to make it illegal..

 

In case you didn't read any of the other times it was said laws change.

 

And, it may be legal, but there are places that are trying to legalize things that would make it legal but illegal--that would make it prohibitively expensive to operate an abortion clinic or outright impossible. It wouldn't be that abortion is illegal, but they would tie it up in so much red tape it might as well be.

 

There are people who want to force people to have unnecessary procedures done to have one--including legally requiring medical personnel to lie about scientific facts to try and scare people into not getting an abortion.

 

 

I'll say this again--if laws never changed, the America would not exist--we'd still be a group of British colonies.

 

Americans fight Americans because not all Americans are of one mind--freedom goes hand in hand with disagreement.

 

 

Also, bringing this back up: At one point, America's government decided that alcohol should be illegal! So the law was changed and it was made illegal. Then, when it realized how stupid that was, the law was changed and it is no longer illegal.

Edited by KageSora

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I didn't say I didn't have an option, all I'm saying is I dislike this issue and wish no part of it because it causes this kind of hatred. It causes Americans to fight Americans. And asking why pro choice is even fighting? Abortion is already legal, so it should stay that way, because that's what America decided.

Then get out of this thread. Go. Don't come back. If it's something you want no part of, don't make yourself a part of it.

 

We fight because people are trying, every single day, to make abortion, and in some cases even contraception, illegal. People don't stop needing those things in places they become illegal. It may have been decided that abortion is legal here, but there are many, many people fighting to change that, and we HAVE to fight back. Standing aside twiddling our thumbs is not an option.

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Then get out of this thread. Go. Don't come back. If it's something you want no part of, don't make yourself a part of it.

 

We fight because people are trying, every single day, to make abortion, and in some cases even contraception, illegal. People don't stop needing those things in places they become illegal. It may have been decided that abortion is legal here, but there are many, many people fighting to change that, and we HAVE to fight back. Standing aside twiddling our thumbs is not an option.

But why! All it does is cause Americans to hate each other (and in these trying times that's the last we need). If you want me to have an opinion, I'll just go pro life, since you've been so rude, and obnoxious, I haven't really heard any insults from their side.

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