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Except Kai when it's not, although that gets us into a more R rated discussion rather than a pg13, but there are times where it may not be rape >.>.

 

My thoughts are if the person cannot comprehend what sex is, is drugged, or has said no, stop, or their equivelence it is rape. Or when their life or a life of another person is thretened it is also rape.

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I really don't care one way or another. I'm not a bay, so I don't care if a mom aborts. And I'm not a woman so I don't care if abortion is illegal. But if it is, then one must obey the rules.

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And I'm not a woman so I don't care if abortion is illegal. But if it is, then one must obey the rules.

So... say a woman close to you found out they would die if they stayed pregnant. They decide to abort to save their life, but can't because it's illegal. Would you still not care?

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If they try they get arrested, then disassociate, disassociate, disassociate. If its against the law then I don't try to fight it.

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If they try they get arrested, then disassociate, disassociate, disassociate. If its against the law then I don't try to fight it.

So you would rather the mother die than to break the law to save her life? Ooook....

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Correct. If people can break the law, you can expand that to all slots of things.

 

Like:

I am dying, If I don't get the money to go to hospital I'll die of (disease name). Lets rob a bank.

 

 

Is like divide by zero, if you allow it, it throws everything out of whack.

 

Now if abortion was legal, then fine, I don't care. But if its not, DON'T BREAK THE LAW!

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Correct. If people can break the law, you can expand that to all slots of things.

 

Like:

I am dying, If I don't get the money to go to hospital I'll die of (disease name). Lets rob a bank.

 

 

Is like divide by zero, if you allow it, it throws everything out of whack.

 

Now if abortion was legal, then fine, I don't care. But if its not, DON'T BREAK THE LAW!

I find your stance a bit disturbing, partially because the scenario you explain doesn't really fit the situation. When most people can't afford a service they don't go out and rob a bank, not because its illegal, but because they phisically can't or don't feel that it is right. But they do other things within the means of the law, like ask family members for money.

 

Family memebers may do illegal things to pay for the medicine/hosptial visits etc. but I don't feel it applies to abortion because you are outlawing the medical precedure its self.

 

What if we made radiation treatment illegal here in the United States so people with cancer wouldn't be hurt by the treatment? You'd get three things happening, 1. People going over seas or attempting to go over seas for the treatment so they don't die, 2. Doctors preforming the procdure illegally for profit or because they don't want their patient to die and 3. People dieing because they refuse to do something 'wrong' and can't get the money to go somewhere where it is legal, possibly causeing their families to lose a much needed paycheck.

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Look, the overal truth is:

 

I really don't care much for either side. If its illegal, too bad. If its not then good for you, I still don't care.

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Look, the overal truth is:

 

I really don't care much for either side. If its illegal, too bad. If its not then good for you, I still don't care.

Would you say 'too bad' to a twelve year old who was impregnated by rape and whose body was unable to carry the fetus to term safely? The reason why I believe that abortion must be allowed is to stop those sorts of scenarios and so that women may have a choice regarding their body. By saying it doesn't matter either way you're condoning the illegalization of abortion. And you're saying that the mental, physical, and econmic health of a woman or girl who is carrying an unwanted child is irrelevant.

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I'm saying its not my problem. I'm not against y'all trying to legalize to, I'm just saying if its illegal, it's illegal, you can't do it.

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I'm saying its not my problem. I'm not against y'all trying to legalize to, I'm just saying if its illegal, it's illegal, you can't do it.

*is glad abortion is still legal overall in her country then....*

 

*really wants to say more, but bites her tongue*

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I'm saying its not my problem. I'm not against y'all trying to legalize to, I'm just saying if its illegal, it's illegal, you can't do it.

If everyone went by that, the world would be.. well, it will never be that way, so.

 

Abortion is a very "touch and go" subject with me. I'm very modern/empathetic with it, despite being Christian which dictates it should illegal. I disagree.

I actually know a mother who has a 9-year old. She got her "period" about two weeks ago. It runs in that woman's family, early maturity, and obviously being impregnated at those young ages would kill that girl.

Nothing is black and white. We can say "oh if it's illegal, don't do it! gotta obey the laws." but we naturally have to take into account all the gray areas. Was the sex consensual? Is she healthy enough to bear - mentally and or physically? ( being mentally unprepared can also kill the baby as well. I know women who, because of pressure, kept their children, and wound up neglecting/smothering them in their sleep because they kept crying. ) Can she support a child right now? Humans are very social creatures by design, so it's only natural to look at a homeless child or a woman/girl who literally has to have an abortion and feel empathy and understand the situation. That's why I don't think abortion should be illegal. Ironically, it may still cost lives as if it were legal. Mothering instinct is real, but despite what some people believe, it is not INSTANT. Women are not driven solely by instinct. If they can't have a child without being killed by labor, or that child was "forcefully given to them," they're going to make a decision.

I'm reading between the lines of making abortion illegal, and I see "it's killing babies, so it should be illegal no matter the reason - if it's good or bad. Women automatically have mother instinct so no matter when they have a child, they'll raise it naturally without a hitch."

As well, I know some people are reading this thread and are like.. listless to the whole issue because it will never effect them, but I'm sure if they had a daughter who became pregnant and needed an abortion, or had a friend that was raped and became pregnant, they'd really be moved. Hypothetical situations can easily be ignored.

 

*is glad abortion is still legal overall in her country then....*

 

Here it is legal, but some "areas" of this country have banned it. In America however, for everything that has been widely banned, there are people who still do those things from the eyes of the authority, so if abortion is ever completely banned here, there will still be doctors performing it. The government here is run by a majority of people who will never experience what it is like to need an abortion, so I can't at all say I will tell people to follow the law on it being illegal. Laws are black and white. Human issues are not.

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*is glad abortion is still legal overall in her country then....*

 

*really wants to say more, but bites her tongue*

I'm from America, it is legal, I'm just saying I don't care one way or anther.

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^Adding to this... if it was illegal, that doesn't mean nothing can be done about it. People will always fight for their rights.

 

EDIT: I meant to reply to Momo's post.

Edited by St. Jimmy

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despite being Christian which dictates it should illegal.

*pedantic*

 

No part of Christianity touches on legality. Jesus himself made it clear that one's spiritual life is seperate from the government (render unto Ceasar...). So, no, following Christ does not mean you should consider abortion something to be made illegal. Immoral, perhaps, but not illegal.

 

There's a lot of hypocisy that goes on with many of the 'pro life' campaigns. Not least because Jesus and the Bible are far, far more clear about divorce - and yet you don't see anyone out there trying to get that banned.

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I'm from America, it is legal, I'm just saying I don't care one way or anther.

If you don't care, I'm unsure on what exactly you're trying to contribute to the discussion? Did you have a point you wanted to discuss?

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I'm trying to say that the argument is mute. If its illegal dont censorkip.gif* about it. If it is legal, live with it.

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I'm saying its not my problem. I'm not against y'all trying to legalize to, I'm just saying if its illegal, it's illegal, you can't do it.

If you're not for legalization, you might as well be against it.

 

And you're a shining example of why men shouldn't be allowed to have any kind of say in laws that govern the health of a woman.

 

Also, your statements seem very callous and I feel very sorry for any women in your life because you really don't seem to give two censorkip.gif s about them.

 

I'm trying to say that the argument is mute. If its illegal dont censorkip.gif* about it. If it is legal, live with it.

No, the argument is important.

 

If it's made illegal, then we will fight to change the laws--laws are not permanent, unchanging things. If that were the case alcohol would still be banned.

 

The whole point of a government that the people vote on is to let the voices of the people be heard--and those voices change over time, thus laws change to reflect that. There will always be some politicians will try to pass laws that censorkip.gif over the average person just so they can line their pockets. That's why it's important that we fight for our rights, and try to get laws that hurt the average person changed.

 

Or are you unaware of the people trying to change the laws to make abortion illegal? Because we fight to stop them from killing more people.

 

Laws are more like... They're a hybrid of absolute rules and guidelines. That's why we have judges to interpret them--because they're not always 100% clear-cut and absolute. We take the gray areas into account, because this world isn't black and white.

 

Yes, you should follow the laws when you can--but there are times when the laws are harmful, and you need to break them for the greater good. That's one of the ways change happens--people realize that laws are unjust and they fight them, refusing to follow laws that are put in place specifically to oppress. If nobody ever dared break a law in the name of the greater good, then we would have a very, very, VERY horrible world.

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I'm trying to say that the argument is mute. If its illegal dont censorkip.gif* about it. If it is legal, live with it.

So if laws say I'm less of a person, if they discriminate against me, if they hurt me, I should never fight to have them changed? I should never speak up about it? I should never make things better?

 

This makes no sense. We absolutely cannot evolve as a society doing this and it goes against the very fabric of what the US (since that's where I live) claims to be.

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I'm trying to say that the argument is mute. If its illegal dont censorkip.gif* about it. If it is legal, live with it.

But the argument isn't at all about whether or not to do something illegal, it's about CHANGING THE LAW. Things that are illegal can be made legal and vice versa. Nothing is set completely in stone. Everyone is arguing about whether abortion should be legal or not, not whether people should ignore the law to get one when it is illegal. The argument is absolutely not moot, you've just completely missed the point of it.

 

Also, why shouldn't people "*censorkip.gif" about their rights? Why should people just suffer silently because the law/government/majority says they don't matter as much? Should we really just accept injustice because that's what the law says now?

Edited by hydrargyrum

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See this is exactly what I mean! Maybe I'll side with the pro-life because you pro-choice are being censorkip.gif***s. That's Sith logic: "if your not with me your against me". I don't like it. At lease the pro-life don't say that. Gawd! You people get so pissy about this. I would expect you people to do the same. If all people named Mtntopview were illegal, I'd expect YOU to hold up the law, even though it wouldn't be fair.

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That's Sith logic: "if your not with me your against me". I don't like it. At lease the pro-life don't say that.

Actually, that's exactly the stance a decent chunk of it takes. Yes, there are those are are 'I am pro-life, this is what I believe but if you don't believe it that's okay', but a huge amount tend to fall into the 'agree with me or you are wrong and we will punish you'.

 

No one here has been saying that, though-- they've just been asking, if a law is unjust and causes undue harm/restriction that causes more bad than good, shouldn't we (through normal legal channels of course) fight to have it changed?

 

Let's use your own example, if there was a law stating that 'If all people named Mtntopview were illegal', wouldn't you want to have it changed because it was oppressive and causing more harm than good? Wouldn't you feel insulted if you were told to stop whining and deal with it, instead of working to change it?

Edited by Dr. Paine

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See this is exactly what I mean! Maybe I'll side with the pro-life because you pro-choice are being censorkip.gif***s. That's Sith logic: "if your not with me your against me". I don't like it. At lease the pro-life don't say that. Gawd! You people get so pissy about this. I would expect you people to do the same. If all people named Mtntopview were illegal, I'd expect YOU to hold up the law, even though it wouldn't be fair.

Actually, the pro-life side are often terrible. Many of them harass people getting legal abortions, are hypocrites who get abortions because theirs is okay but other people don't deserve it, intentionally spread lies and misinformation to advance their cause, etc.

 

Not all of them are like that, no. But there's a disturbing number who are. And yeah, there are pro-choice people who are like that too. BOTH sides have flawed people on them, it's hardly a pro-choice only thing.

 

 

And you know, this was originally about the Holocaust, but I think that the idea behind this really does apply to so many situations.

 

If you don't speak up because it doesn't affect you, then there will be nobody left to speak up when it does.

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

If you don't speak up when people are using laws and such to oppress another group simply because you're not a part of that group... Then nobody will speak up for you when you become a victim of unjust laws.

 

And, actually, I would complain and fight to change a law if it outlawed a name--that's a stupid, silly law. Laws are not above being stupid and pointless.

 

 

Or are you saying blacks should still be second-class citizens, women should still not be allowed to vote, etc.? Because all those things were changed because people realized that the laws were unfair/oppressive and demanded change. If people just shut up and accepted things, that would still be the case.

 

Also alcohol would still be illegal.

 

Hell, America wouldn't exist! We'd still be British colonies because there would have been no revolution! biggrin.gif

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See this is exactly what I mean! Maybe I'll side with the pro-life because you pro-choice are being censorkip.gif***s. That's Sith logic: "if your not with me your against me". I don't like it. At lease the pro-life don't say that. Gawd! You people get so pissy about this. I would expect you people to do the same. If all people named Mtntopview were illegal, I'd expect YOU to hold up the law, even though it wouldn't be fair.

 

But this is a debate thread for your stance on abortion, which is why we are trying to pick apart what you're saying. Don't come into a debate thread and then get upset that people are discussing your opinion.

 

And with your view, I would still have very few rights as a female. Slaves would still be legal. Not cool.

 

 

 

I'd expect YOU to hold up the law, even though it wouldn't be fair.

 

That really, really strikes me wrong. We don't want a ton of bull laws coming through (like what you suggested), which is why we voice our opinions. You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter the law, the law is absolute and we shouldn't bother changing it.

 

Thing is, law isn't absolute, only the guidelines that humans give it. Sometimes it fits right in most cases, other times it's like trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole. That 'circular hole' shape will change with society, and we want to try and fit that square peg as close as it can be so that, while it doesn't make everyone happy, it makes most people happy. What you are saying is that it doesn't matter the fit, we should stick with the current fit regardless of the change in society, the pain the law causes other people... "As long as it doesn't affect me, I'm not going to bother with it" is the tone I'm getting.

KageSora posted an excellent, excellent quote, and I'll repost it here because it is so very true.

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

Edited by High Lord November

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