No More Chosen One, PLEASE!

[crazywargod]

Oh, you typo'd the first time. 2 < 3.5. 3 < 3.5, also, actually. ;3

 

All the books were "building blocks" to the end. That doesn't change the fact that Harry was a Chosen One the whole way through. :3

Oops

 

 

A good author, J.K, can use entire books to build up to a plot. Books 1-3 were used to give harry what he would eventually lose. Mainly dumbledore and black and happiness. Not a chosen one YET. He wasn't the chosen one through 1-3 but in 4 is when things crumbled and 5 is when he became the chosen one and 7 is when he fulfilled his chosen one task. 1-3 were a prologue to what he would eventually become which is a chosen one. Chosen ones don't always start as chosen ones but can eventually become chosen ones. So the overall series plot=chosen one but individual books are 1-3 plot=prologue to chosen one and 4-7 plot=chosen one.

Edited September 1, 2010 by crazywargod

[Obscure_Trash]

Lawl, dun worry, I fail at maths, too.

 

If Harry wasn't the Chosen One in the beginner books, he wouldn't have faced Voldemort and would have died if he did (a child who's not the Chosen One facing a wizard with far more years of experience and knowledge - no chance). The prophesy was made before Voldemort killed his parents and attempted to kill him. We were introduced to him as the Chosen One. Yes, all the books are plot and all prologue to the one after, but that doesn't stop Harry from being the Chosen One from book one. :3

[crazywargod]

Lawl, dun worry, I fail at maths, too.

 

If Harry wasn't the Chosen One in the beginner books, he wouldn't have faced Voldemort and would have died if he did (a child who's not the Chosen One facing a wizard with far more years of experience and knowledge - no chance). The prophesy was made before Voldemort killed his parents and attempted to kill him. We were introduced to him as the Chosen One. Yes, all the books are plot and all prologue to the one after, but that doesn't stop Harry from being the Chosen One from book one. :3

I am saying 1-3 are prologue to being the chosen one and 4-7 are him being the chosen one.

 

 

You can't change the plot. You can link stories and change it but once you have the plot it is stuck but what you can do is build up to the plot. 1-3 were just building what was to be the series plot.

 

 

Harry didn't become the chosen one until later in the series. Prophecies don't mean squat until you know them. Chosen ones are driven by the knowledge of the prophecy or by someone that does and nobody was driving harry untill book 4. Where voldy who failed resurection twice started to lead harry away from his help. Book one he was supprised to see harry. Book two again a supprise. Book 3 completely absent. Book 4 resurection and harry becomes chosen one. Harry wasn't needing to be the chosen one untill voldy went and resurected himself.

[Kamak]

This subject has been discussed on TVTropes and Harry has been deemed an "Unchosen One", someone who has decided to take up the challenge of being the chosen one themselves without being told "You are the only one who can defeat the evil of ______". Even with hearing the prophesy, Harry CHOOSES to continue fighting Voldemort, as seen in this quote from Book 6:

 

Harry Potter: But, sir, it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or-

Albus Dumbledore: Got to? Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard the prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!

Harry: ...I'd want him finished. And I'd want to do it.

—Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

 

If anything, the prophesy cemented his resolve to defeat Voldemort (call it vengeance, justice, whatever) by informing him that he's the only one who can end it (If he wants to live at least).

 

He CHOSE to act upon the information he recieved during the early books, he wasn't forced to do it, the adults certainly wouldn't want him to do it (most wouldn't act upon it though (especially book 5... Fudge was too busy being an ass to consider that Harry telling him (if that were to happen) about the raid on the Ministry was real rather than another plot by Dumbledore to undermine him.

 

You may argue that it was a self-fulfilling prophesy, but the fact of the matter is, the mantle wasn't thrust onto Harry until the 5th book, and regardless of knowing of the prophesy, he would have continued to fight Voldemort for personal reasons.

 

-K-

[Obscure_Trash]

Chosen Ones are driven by the fact that they are the only ones who can do something. As Harry was in all the books. The only one who ended up facing Quirrel/Voldemort and the only one who ended up facing Riddle, in true CO fashion.

[crazywargod]

This subject has been discussed on TVTropes and Harry has been deemed an "Unchosen One", someone who has decided to take up the challenge of being the chosen one themselves without being told "You are the only one who can defeat the evil of ______". Even with hearing the prophesy, Harry CHOOSES to continue fighting Voldemort, as seen in this quote from Book 6:

 

Harry Potter: But, sir, it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or-

Albus Dumbledore: Got to? Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard the prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!

Harry: ...I'd want him finished. And I'd want to do it.

—Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

 

If anything, the prophesy cemented his resolve to defeat Voldemort (call it vengeance, justice, whatever) by informing him that he's the only one who can end it (If he wants to live at least).

 

He CHOSE to act upon the information he recieved during the early books, he wasn't forced to do it, the adults certainly wouldn't want him to do it (most wouldn't act upon it though (especially book 5... Fudge was too busy being an ass to consider that Harry telling him (if that were to happen) about the raid on the Ministry was real rather than another plot by Dumbledore to undermine him.

 

You may argue that it was a self-fulfilling prophesy, but the fact of the matter is, the mantle wasn't thrust onto Harry until the 5th book, and regardless of knowing of the prophesy, he would have continued to fight Voldemort for personal reasons.

 

-K-

Owo

so "unchosen one" nice.

[Kamak]

Chosen Ones are driven by the fact that they are the only ones who can do something. As Harry was in all the books. The only one who ended up facing Quirrel/Voldemort and the only one who ended up facing Riddle, in true CO fashion.

Who is to say that if he had told McGonagall or someone else with power that they wouldn't have been able to stop him? After all, the teachers set the traps for the Mirror of Erised in the first book, and Quirrel wasn't much of a threat. Frankly, there could have been any number of people he could have gotten involved that could have taken his place (wouldn't have made for a good series though), however, he CHOSE to do it himself, no one said "Harry, you're the only one who can destroy Quirrel and rescue the Philosopher's Stone" (which, BTW, would have remained in the Mirror had Harry not done anything, thus the plan would have foiled itself).

 

-K-

[crazywargod]

Who is to say that if he had told McGonagall or someone else with power that they wouldn't have been able to stop him? After all, the teachers set the traps for the Mirror of Erised in the first book, and Quirrel wasn't much of a threat. Frankly, there could have been any number of people he could have gotten involved that could have taken his place (wouldn't have made for a good series though), however, he CHOSE to do it himself, no one said "Harry, you're the only one who can destroy Quirrel and rescue the Philosopher's Stone" (which, BTW, would have remained in the Mirror had Harry not done anything, thus the plan would have foiled itself).

 

-K-

Last part is true. "You see, only one who wanted to find the stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking Elixer or Life." That is word for word quote from book 1.

[Obscure_Trash]

What's saying someone else couldn't have stopped him? How about the fact that no one else did? The fact that a - what - eleven year old ended up going after him speaks volumes about his Chosen One status. If Harry wasn't the CO, the one meant to destroy Voldy, he wouldn't have been so intertwined with him, going after him time and time again. He would have acted more like a normal child.

 

Not arguing that Harry worked against himself at times, but he's still a CO.

[crazywargod]

What's saying someone else couldn't have stopped him? How about the fact that no one else did? The fact that a - what - eleven year old ended up going after him speaks volumes about his Chosen One status. If Harry wasn't the CO, the one meant to destroy Voldy, he wouldn't have been so intertwined with him, going after him time and time again. He would have acted more like a normal child.

 

Not arguing that Harry worked against himself at times, but he's still a CO.

This subject has been discussed on TVTropes and Harry has been deemed an "Unchosen One", someone who has decided to take up the challenge of being the chosen one themselves without being told "You are the only one who can defeat the evil of ______".

 

This^ says it all.

 

And I believe he was more 17 or 18 at the end of the series. How old was he in 1?

 

EDIT:Nevermind I looked. He was 11 in 1 making him around 17 in 7.

Edited September 1, 2010 by crazywargod

[DragonNighthowler]

In The Sorcerer's Apprentice, the guy doesn't learn he's the Chosen One until nearly the end. Which so happens in many other books and movies concerning the same topic. So the fact that Harry didn't know in books 1-3, doesn't make him any less Chosen One.

 

Just because some guys debated in TV (don't even know what show is that), it makes it another opinion. Not a universal truth.

 

The fact that Harry is demonstrated to be Chosen One in the last 3 books, means he was Chosen One from the beginning. We get just that, a journey throughout 7 books building up to that finale. We just can't base an opinion in 3 books. It's a serie, it's a whole, not 7 independent books without any relation between themselves.

 

He chose to save the world. So did Dave, in the Sorcerer's Apprentice. He was not obliged. He went because he felt it was the right thing.

 

Eragon will do the same, he's building up to fight the evil emperor, being him the only one who will defeat him.

 

Having a character being a Chosen One is not necesarily a bad thing. You guys are making it seem as if, by stating Harry is a CHosen One, we're actually saying Rowling can't write a good book, and that's not it. The books are amazing (until the last one which is little more worthy than toilet paper), but the plot is directed towards the culmination of the Chosen One's journey.

 

That, without entering a debate about Harry's Stu characteristics, which are pretty typical in Chosen Ones.

[crazywargod]

This subject has been discussed on TVTropes and Harry has been deemed an "Unchosen One", someone who has decided to take up the challenge of being the chosen one themselves without being told "You are the only one who can defeat the evil of ______". Even with hearing the prophesy, Harry CHOOSES to continue fighting Voldemort, as seen in this quote from Book 6:

 

Harry Potter: But, sir, it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or-

Albus Dumbledore: Got to? Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard the prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!

Harry: ...I'd want him finished. And I'd want to do it.

—Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

 

If anything, the prophesy cemented his resolve to defeat Voldemort (call it vengeance, justice, whatever) by informing him that he's the only one who can end it (If he wants to live at least).

 

He CHOSE to act upon the information he recieved during the early books, he wasn't forced to do it, the adults certainly wouldn't want him to do it (most wouldn't act upon it though (especially book 5... Fudge was too busy being an ass to consider that Harry telling him (if that were to happen) about the raid on the Ministry was real rather than another plot by Dumbledore to undermine him.

 

You may argue that it was a self-fulfilling prophesy, but the fact of the matter is, the mantle wasn't thrust onto Harry until the 5th book, and regardless of knowing of the prophesy, he would have continued to fight Voldemort for personal reasons.

 

-K-

Actually DragonNighthowler this^ is pretty convincing to me. I don't know everything about TVTropes but as I understand them to be generally trustworthy.

 

 

That and what kamak usually says is pretty hard to go against, at least for me. You can try having him explain better.

[DragonNighthowler]

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage

 

Very reliable. As reliable as Wikipedia.

 

[MisunderstoodDreamer]

I read the books some years ago and in my language, so I can't copy you the lines I'm referring to, but Harry was the Choosen One from book 1. There's a little detail that you can understand only when you read the correspondent phrase in... I don't remember the book, but you sure understand what it is. In book 1 when Harry buy his wand Ollivander says that it's strange that him buy that wand when it's twin made to him his scar. Well, reading this you don't understand what means and you forget of this, but from last books what we know about this event? Ollivander (before Tom Riddle bought his wand, so 60 years before Harry buys his) made 2 wands with Fawkes' feathers, one of holly wood and another of yew wood (simbology, holly is an evergreen plant so it's "life", yew is called "death's tree" because is used in cemeteries and because was used for poison darts so it's "death" - so opposed wands). Ollivander never does phoenix feathers' wands because they can be used only by very powerful wizards and so are difficult to sell, but that time was inspired to do that. Also, holly and yew woods are not used because doesn't fit to every wizards and he don't use them because are difficult to sell too. He did these twin wands, and one (yew!) was buyed by Tom Riddle. When him becames a menace, Ollivander, who was Dumbledore's friend, told him about the unsold twin wand and Dumbledore asked him "tell me when you'll sell it". When Harry buy the holly wand (life) Ollivander tells this to Dumbledore. First, this wand was the only that fits to Harry, so for sure Harry = "life" and "powerful wizard", and second, twin wands = same power level of the owners. Dumbledore was the only in the whole story that knows about the twin wands and the prophecy together, so he was the only that can relate the two things, so before Harry arrives at Hogwarts Dumbledore knows surely that he is the Choosen One. And remember, he is the only that really trusts in him without doubts, when others express doubts on the Harry's real capacity to fight against Voldemort (Snape, sometimes Moody) he always say that he can do this without doubts. Because he knew this from the beginning and no others knows!

 

And about the matter destiny/fortune, it was destiny, helped to Harry's personality. He discover that something is going wrong and people are in danger, so he "runs" to stop it (he is a true Gryffindor, so he is the most courageous), and in this story the cause of danger and wrong things is always Voldemort, so it's naturally that their paths always intersect). Harry is "obliged" to the prophecy to fight against Voldemort, but Dumbledore reveals this to Harry only when he already took this decision himself in his heart, leaving him "free" to choose. Harry doesn't know he is the Choosen One from the beginning, but Dumbledore yes.

 

I hope you'll not be bored about this long post!

 

Ah, about The sorceror's apprentice, the ring thing isn't stupid. That was Merlin's ring and it works only with Merlin/Merlin's descendings, Dave is an his long long nephew so he can use his ring. Merlin's apprentices can find his descendents with this ring's particularity. The strange thing in this question is that Merlin's apprentices don't know the children/nephews of their teacher and have to search them...

 

I'm hoping I didn't make many grammatical errors, excuse me if you find them.

[NixAyum]

You can't say Harry wasn't a CO just because the actualization of the CO mission didn't come out til later.

 

Generally, I agree with TVTropes, but it IS just a bunch of opinions, so I say Harry is a well-executed Chosen One.

[crazywargod]

Exactly OPINIONS. Yours, mine, theirs, everybodys.

[MisunderstoodDreamer]

Excuse me, but mine isn't an opinion. It's the union of things written by J.K. Rowling and things that everyone can read beyond the lines with some reflections.

 

I'm not trying to impose it to you, but it's not formed by invented things.

[Verridith]

Now I haven't read all of this (lol, no time to do that ) but I skimmed/read the first page/post and have to put my two cents in. |D

 

I don't think the whole idea of a 'chosen one' should be used as often as it has, but when appropriate, it's quite alright. Harry Potter and Eragon are two poor examples, actually. (I haven't seen tSA yet so I dunno about that one.) Harry goes through a lot to earn what abilities he has and the whole prophecy thing didn't apply to him until after his parents were killed and he was marked or whatever. He wasn't born 'chosen' like a lot of characters are. Harry learns more and more and grows throughout the books in maturity and power, and has his downfalls as well as his victories. Eragon also. He goes through tons of training - through Brom and Oromis, plus his swordsmanship with Murtagh [did I spell that right?] and the battles and lalala funteim - and has a lot of weaknesses, one of which being arrogance, something that gets him in a lot of trouble.

 

Not my lack of the term 'Mary Sue'. I don't believe in them. My philosophy is that if you want to make a character, do it and if somebody has a problem with it tell them to go eat a cowpie.

 

I'm a writer/role-player so I've seen a lot of 'Chosen Ones' in my time as well. In my r/p guild, we have a thing going where a few characters are 'Chosen' by the gods not to die until a certain task is done, a part played. But that only happens if the character dies and Time (the head god dragon dude) goes 'oh, you gotta go back, sorry ;D' and punts their tail back to the living world. Of course, because BTACDers love to torture their characters, those Chosen actually do die quite often, and not everybody comes back. But that's just us.

 

My character, Caele, a dark elf, is a prime example. He was 'Chosen' not to die when on this test - like a manhood test where he had to go find a gem hidden somewhere and not come home until he found it, no matter what dangers are around where the gem is hidden. He got attacked by a pack of wolves starving on the tundra. Why was he saved? Later on in the r/p, he sacrifices half his soul to bring back what D'issan (main drow city that had its population wiped out by a creepy demon lord and his experiments) once was. Time saw what he was going and went 'ohhey, that's why Scylla kept him alive lol' and granted his wish without taking his entire soul. After that, Time gave him one more chance at life because by killing half his soul, the other half was eroding away. Time said 'you'll be killed in ____ battle, make sure you die and I'll bring you back to life. but if you die another time, you're sheet outta luck'. He was Chosen, and now that his task his done, not Chosen any longer.

 

If you read all that, you get a cookie. C: In short, I have no problem with chosen characters if they're done right. If they have amazing powers right off the bat and don't even work for them/learn how to control them/etc, then that in my eyes is the decision of a poor writer. If it's done correctly, kudos to a good story! It all depends on how it's done.

[crazywargod]

Now I haven't read all of this (lol, no time to do that ) but I skimmed/read the first page/post and have to put my two cents in. |D

 

I don't think the whole idea of a 'chosen one' should be used as often as it has, but when appropriate, it's quite alright. Harry Potter and Eragon are two poor examples, actually. (I haven't seen tSA yet so I dunno about that one.) Harry goes through a lot to earn what abilities he has and the whole prophecy thing didn't apply to him until after his parents were killed and he was marked or whatever. He wasn't born 'chosen' like a lot of characters are. Harry learns more and more and grows throughout the books in maturity and power, and has his downfalls as well as his victories. Eragon also. He goes through tons of training - through Brom and Oromis, plus his swordsmanship with Murtagh [did I spell that right?] and the battles and lalala funteim - and has a lot of weaknesses, one of which being arrogance, something that gets him in a lot of trouble.

 

Not my lack of the term 'Mary Sue'. I don't believe in them. My philosophy is that if you want to make a character, do it and if somebody has a problem with it tell them to go eat a cowpie.

 

I'm a writer/role-player so I've seen a lot of 'Chosen Ones' in my time as well. In my r/p guild, we have a thing going where a few characters are 'Chosen' by the gods not to die until a certain task is done, a part played. But that only happens if the character dies and Time (the head god dragon dude) goes 'oh, you gotta go back, sorry ;D' and punts their tail back to the living world. Of course, because BTACDers love to torture their characters, those Chosen actually do die quite often, and not everybody comes back. But that's just us.

 

My character, Caele, a dark elf, is a prime example. He was 'Chosen' not to die when on this test - like a manhood test where he had to go find a gem hidden somewhere and not come home until he found it, no matter what dangers are around where the gem is hidden. He got attacked by a pack of wolves starving on the tundra. Why was he saved? Later on in the r/p, he sacrifices half his soul to bring back what D'issan (main drow city that had its population wiped out by a creepy demon lord and his experiments) once was. Time saw what he was going and went 'ohhey, that's why Scylla kept him alive lol' and granted his wish without taking his entire soul. After that, Time gave him one more chance at life because by killing half his soul, the other half was eroding away. Time said 'you'll be killed in ____ battle, make sure you die and I'll bring you back to life. but if you die another time, you're sheet outta luck'. He was Chosen, and now that his task his done, not Chosen any longer.

 

If you read all that, you get a cookie. C: In short, I have no problem with chosen characters if they're done right. If they have amazing powers right off the bat and don't even work for them/learn how to control them/etc, then that in my eyes is the decision of a poor writer. If it's done correctly, kudos to a good story! It all depends on how it's done.

Long post is long O.o

 

Wait are you saying HP was a poor example chosen one done right or just poor example of a chosen one?

 

Excuse me, but mine isn't an opinion. It's the union of things written by J.K. Rowling and things that everyone can read beyond the lines with some reflections. 

 

I'm not trying to impose it to you, but it's not formed by invented things.

Actually it is still an opinion. Everything I read pointed away from chosen one while you were pointed towards.

 

My statements are no less a union of thing as yours and I used the same base as you and came up with a different answer.

 

 

It is an opinion and saying otherwise is quite eh.(for lack of an appropriate word)

[Verridith]

Harry Potter is a 'chosen one' concept done right.

[crazywargod]

Harry Potter is a 'chosen one' concept done right.

Aha. There it is then. So what you were saying was HP was a poor example to be used in the OP or at least the way the OP put it.

[Qwackie]

The books said Harry was a chosen one, multiple times. Game over, end of story. People called him "The Chosen One" and that newspaper title in the 6th movie said "Harry Potter, Chosen One?" on the front.

[Kamak]

The books said Harry was a chosen one, multiple times. Game over, end of story. People called him "The Chosen One" and that newspaper title in the 6th movie said "Harry Potter, Chosen One?" on the front.

Yet constantly through the books Harry denounces the fact that he's doing something because he's destined to. He denounces the claim that he was special in the sense that the killing spell didn't kill him (and technically, that's true, he didn't invoke the protection, his mother placed it on him). His actions are his own, not something that was forced upon him. He's a fairly ordinary wizard, except in cases where he is motivated to go beyond what others are usually capable of (like the patronus). Nothing is inherently handed to him, as is the case with most chosen ones.

 

And if anyone wants to invoke that Harry's fate was sealed by the prophesy and that he inescapably HAD to kill Voldemort, you'll have to substantiate whether the prophesy was resolved by Voldemort (destroying his own horcrux and killing himself by using the Elder Wand when he wasn't the master), or if Harry had resolved it by killing Voldemort indirectly (since the Elder Wand belonged to him).

 

-K-

[Dr. Paine]

The books said Harry was a chosen one, multiple times. Game over, end of story. People called him "The Chosen One" and that newspaper title in the 6th movie said "Harry Potter, Chosen One?" on the front.

Just saying, that actually seemed to be more the Ministry/media's fault. While there was a prophecy and all, I don't see Harry as a real chosen one- he was not named, he just fit the bill, and we are even shown the other person who might have been it instead.

[MisunderstoodDreamer]

I am saying 1-3 are prologue to being the chosen one and 4-7 are him being the chosen one.

 

 

You can't change the plot. You can link stories and change it but once you have the plot it is stuck but what you can do is build up to the plot. 1-3 were just building what was to be the series plot.

 

 

Harry didn't become the chosen one until later in the series. Prophecies don't mean squat until you know them. Chosen ones are driven by the knowledge of the prophecy or by someone that does and nobody was driving harry untill book 4. Where voldy who failed resurection twice started to lead harry away from his help. Book one he was supprised to see harry. Book two again a supprise. Book 3 completely absent. Book 4 resurection and harry becomes chosen one. Harry wasn't needing to be the chosen one untill voldy went and resurected himself.

I was answering to this post, saying that Harry was the Chosen One from book 1, even before Voldemort's recomposition (it isn't a resurrection, he wasn't dead and he did evil things even if he was only a spirit or a memory and without a need for a body, so Harry was the only that can stop him since then). When you finish all the books you understand that the prophecy is referred to him, not Neville for many motives. And the born date question is so simple. When I read the prophecy for the first time I thought "the dying of 7th month... it's definitely Harry. Neville is born on 30th, Harry three minutes before 1st August... even Voldemort could make 2+2." And about Neville, put him for a moment in the place of Harry, you think that he could stop Voldemort from the beginning? If there was Neville, Voldemort would recover his powers with the Philosophal Stone, because at the beginning he wasn't a monster in courage and intuition. He seemed more similar to an ipothetical Chosen One only in the very end, but only because he has a little more courage and because Harry said him "If you can, kill Voldemort's snake". He didn't even know this at what would be served!

 

The problem of this books is that Harry is the Chosen One but he had a chanche to choose, he could run away from all and hide himself like Ignotus Peverell, but he chose to remain and be the boy of the prophecy. It's controversial. And for this controversial nature I think we are turning around the problems. Can you make specific questions?

 

Ah, I said that mine isn't an opinion because an opinion is subjective. I didn't wrote a my speculation or things born from my fantasy, but objectival data that the writer wrote in her books, it's a puzzle that you can recompose only when you finish all of the books, even the smallest detail become a big piece of the puzzle.

 

Ah, I now must go to bed, it's 1:00 AM at my house. Excuse me if I'll not answer soon.