05/04/10 - State of the Cave

[Akrona]

I beg to differ.  Do you know how hard you have to work for the dragon?  Work is defined as when you make something move.  When you click your mouse to pick up the egg, you burn .0004 calories.  That's it.  And your dragon grows up in 7 days.  Big whoop.  Not a whole lot.  The users aren't entitled to anything.  At all.  You chose to play the game.  Your not losing anything if something get's changed or pulled.  To lose something, you have to own it first.  And clicking a image of a egg that links you to a page with a copy of the art does not mean that you own it.

 

I don't see why everyone is set on removing rights.  I could see that if it was a commission.  But it's not.  Frankly it's not your place to demand it, nor anyone other than TJ and the in cave artists.  You are simply a bystander who gets the opportunity to enjoy a wonderful game.  You have no say in what happens.  I find it offensive.

 

I completely support Lyth in that, it's her choice.  And she should not have to put up with over what she decided to do with her art.  Not the users.  Hers.

Personally, *I* find it offensive that you are so callous to people who appreciate your work. Sure, they can't demand that you keep it, currently. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect of a site that the things one has earned will remain there.

 

To say that the users have no say is also somewhat fallacious. It is very poor practice, and extremely unprofessional, to pull work like this. If this sort of thing becomes a trend, or people begin to realize that any of their dragons could vanish at any moment, people are probably going to leave. Users are the POINT of the site.

 

I'd also like to add that I am an artist. Not yet in-cave, but I am still an artist. And if TJ deems my art worthy of putting it on his site, it is his and he can keep it. I don't see why this is so difficult for most of the in-cave artists.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Akrona

[tjekan]

I completely support Lyth in that, it's her choice. And she should not have to put up with over what she decided to do with her art. Not the users. Hers.

Honestly, I think 99% of the reason people are upset right now is that Lyth directly told us, on several occasions, that frills would not be taken away till the end of June. So people are understandably upset that this assurance was broken.

 

From what she says, it sounds like Lyth never intended to break this promise, and it came about as a result of a miscommunication between her and TJ where she never gave him a date and he never asked. This means it is within their power to correct this and honor the original timescale she gave us.

 

I hope that is what happens. Although I know people will still be sad to see the frills go (because we LIKE them, darn it,) I don't think there would be such drama if not for the broken promise.

[Corteo]

Personally, *I* find it offensive that you are so callous to people who appreciate your work. Sure, they can't demand that you keep it, currently. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect of a site that the things one has earned will remain there.

 

That's just the thing. You didn't earn it. And I'm not callous. I love that people like my work. But that's just the thing MY work.

 

To say that the users have no say is also somewhat fallacious. It is very poor practice, and extremely unprofessional, to pull work like this. If this sort of thing becomes a trend, or people begin to realize that any of their dragons could vanish at any moment, people are probably going to leave. Users are the POINT of the site.

 

The users should have no say what so ever in the contract.

 

I'd also like to add that I am an artist. Not yet in-cave, but I am still an artist. And if TJ deems my art worthy of putting it on his site, it is his and he can keep it. I don't see why this is so difficult for most of the in-cave artists.

 

Because I care about my work and how it is used that me bad? If this site does something I don't support (say the site becomes political), I sure as heck am pulling. Would I do it in such a public maner as the last two? No.

[Sadako]

Almost all websites have policies that say that if a user (which is what the spriters are, sorry to disillusion you) submits artwork, it becomes property of the site.

 

I don't see why that would be offensive or unreasonable.

 

I didn't do any work at all to get your dragons, and I'm not saying I deserve anything. I'm saying that it is bad business for TJ to run a website without having the rights to permanently use the sprites on it. It's just like the pre-fog sprites from other games, except now instead of using art that belongs to other companies, he's using art that belongs to other individuals. That gives those individuals the opportunity to mess up his business. What if all spriters went on strike tomorrow? The site would fall apart and TJ would stop making money.

 

I'm tired of playing devil's advocate now.

[Xanny]

New layout! Woo! ^w^

[arlymaye]

Personally, *I* find it offensive that you are so callous to people who appreciate your work. Sure, they can't demand that you keep it, currently. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect of a site that the things one has earned will remain there.

 

To say that the users have no say is also somewhat fallacious. It is very poor practice, and extremely unprofessional, to pull work like this. If this sort of thing becomes a trend, or people begin to realize that any of their dragons could vanish at any moment, people are probably going to leave. Users are the POINT of the site.

 

I'd also like to add that I am an artist. Not yet in-cave, but I am still an artist. And if TJ deems my art worthy of putting it on his site, it is his and he can keep it. I don't see why this is so difficult for most of the in-cave artists.

Very well said Akrona. What we should really worry now is that what happened to the Frills today will set a precedence for current and future dragon sprites. We collect certain dragons for various reasons. Not everyone enjoy the same sprites and if suddenly, our favorite dragon sprite is being pulled because not everyone enjoys them as much as we do and the spriter decided to retire them, that seems rather unfair don't you think? Users really shouldn't be punished for playing the game.

Edited May 5, 2010 by arlymaye

[Akrona]

Almost all websites have policies that say that if a user (which is what the spriters are, sorry to disillusion you) submits artwork, it becomes property of the site.

 

I don't see why that would be offensive or unreasonable.

 

I didn't do any work at all to get your dragons, and I'm not saying I deserve anything. I'm saying that it is bad business for TJ to run a website without having the rights to permanently use the sprites on it. It's just like the pre-fog sprites from other games, except now instead of using art that belongs to other companies, he's using art that belongs to other individuals. That gives those individuals the opportunity to mess up his business. What if all spriters went on strike tomorrow? The site would fall apart and TJ would stop making money.

 

I'm tired of playing devil's advocate now.

I agree. It is not at all unreasonable and the only reason this was an issue at all is because TJ ALLOWED people to keep copyright in the first place.

 

Funny how this:

Because I care about my work and how it is used that me bad? If this site does something I don't support (say the site becomes political), I sure as heck am pulling. Would I do it in such a public maner as the last two? No.

Basically echoes exactly what your last point was.

Corteo, let's break this down a little. What is it you are saying here?

"I will pull my art if this site does something I don't support."

as in

"If TJ does something I don't like, I will actively hurt HIS website"

as in

"I have control over this website and I want to keep it"

 

This is what worries me about many of the artists here. Are they submitting it to help the site, or for power?

[WestWindReborn]

Then think what you will. I'm becoming more and more satisfied with TJ's decision as I see more people showing their true colours on the issue.

people are touchy, yeah? I guess there are people in both camps with the like/not like thing. I'm more in the middle, but I have to say the texture contrast you put on them is really good, appeals to the eye. I think 'cartoonish' dragons just aren't all that popular, but I guess it really depends on personal taste and most likely age group.

[Nashlina]

I beg to differ. Do you know how hard you have to work for the dragon? Work is defined as when you make something move. When you click your mouse to pick up the egg, you burn .0004 calories. That's it. And your dragon grows up in 7 days. Big whoop. Not a whole lot. The users aren't entitled to anything. At all. You chose to play the game. Your not losing anything if something get's changed or pulled. To lose something, you have to own it first. And clicking a image of a egg that links you to a page with a copy of the art does not mean that you own it.

 

I don't see why everyone is set on removing rights. I could see that if it was a commission. But it's not. Frankly it's not your place to demand it, nor anyone other than TJ and the in cave artists. You are simply a bystander who gets the opportunity to enjoy a wonderful game. You have no say in what happens. I find it offensive.

 

I completely support Lyth in that, it's her choice. And she should not have to put up with over what she decided to do with her art. Not the users. Hers.

If your reaction to something that upsets hundreds of players and was completely unnecessary to begin with is "WELL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, LEAVE," you're in dire need of a change of perspective.

 

You talk about entitlement while completely ignoring the fact that the artists are not entitled to the users liking their work.

 

Sure, Lyth has the right to emotionally blackmail the userbase by saying there "wasn't enough support" for Frills to continue as a breed in spite of a, what, 10+ page thread of nothing but people praising Frills -- but only because TJ didn't make her sign something that states that she doesn't.

[Vicats]

I agree. It is not at all unreasonable and the only reason this was an issue at all is because TJ ALLOWED people to keep copyright in the first place.

 

Funny how this:

 

Basically echoes exactly what your last point was.

Corteo, let's break this down a little. What is it you are saying here?

"I will pull my art if this site does something I don't support."

as in

"If TJ does something I don't like, I will actively hurt HIS website"

as in

"I have control over this website and I want to keep it"

 

This is what worries me about many of the artists here. Are they submitting it to help the site, or for power?

Akky ... You know that I agree with you on all points (...As an Official DC Spriter.) *Thumbsup*

[diannethegeek]

I agree. It is not at all unreasonable and the only reason this was an issue at all is because TJ ALLOWED people to keep copyright in the first place.

 

Funny how this:

 

Basically echoes exactly what your last point was.

Corteo, let's break this down a little. What is it you are saying here?

"I will pull my art if this site does something I don't support."

as in

"If TJ does something I don't like, I will actively hurt HIS website"

as in

"I have control over this website and I want to keep it"

 

This is what worries me about many of the artists here. Are they submitting it to help the site, or for power?

I think the point is more that if the site does something that someone doesn't want their name and their work connected to, they don't want to be tied to a contract.

 

Of course, a good contract will allow for that.

 

Contracts aren't there to restrict people, they're meant to PROTECT both the creator and the user.

[arlymaye]

Akky ... You know that I agree with you on all points (...As an Official DC Spriter.) *Thumbsup*

I so agree with Akky () that my head is starting to hurt from nodding.

[Lythiaren]

I don't recall telling him he's not allowed to use the sprite. Frills will stay on scrolls and serve the same purpose they always have, outside of breeding, so that they won't be pissing people off anymore. Those who want them keep them. Those who don't will never have to look at another one again.

 

I fail to see how that is equivalent to pulling them or saying TJ is not allowed to use the sprite. If anything I'm keeping them there to spite those who want them killed off completely.

[Sir Barton]

Honestly, I think 99% of the reason people are upset right now is that Lyth directly told us, on several occasions, that frills would not be taken away till the end of June. So people are understandably upset that this assurance was broken.

 

From what she says, it sounds like Lyth never intended to break this promise, and it came about as a result of a miscommunication between her and TJ where she never gave him a date and he never asked. This means it is within their power to correct this and honor the original timescale she gave us.

 

I hope that is what happens. Although I know people will still be sad to see the frills go (because we LIKE them, darn it,) I don't think there would be such drama if not for the broken promise.

Thank you, tjekan. You pinpointed the issue that seems to be getting lost among all the bs. Having read through the entire thread, this is what the point is. Frankly talk of 'artist rights' and other such things is off topic and rather spammish. The reason for the annoyance has little to do with the fact that Lyth is retiring the frills, most of us came to the realization that trying to change her mind on this matter was pointless some time ago. The issue has to do with the timing. People were under the impression that they had a least another month to gather and breed their frills. An entire group of people who were trying to get the cave to drop frills abstained from breeding their's last month save in the knowledge that they would still have time to breed before the retirement date at the end of June rolled around. These people have been kicked in the teeth by the early retirement and they are rightfully upset.

 

Heck, if I had known the date had been moved up I would have kept the Dorkface frill I bred a few days ago but I dropped it so someone who still needed a frill would have it because I figured I still had time to breed again. My lost is someone else's gain and it's not really a big deal but still rather annoying.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Sir Barton

[Dire]

The elitism on the part of some of the artists is outrageous. It makes me dislike sprites I otherwise liked before comments like 'the users should have no rights' were made. People choose to play the game? 'tis true. I guess I was unaware spriters were being forced at gun point to draw pictures of dragons...thought they had some choice before deciding whether or not they wanted to undertake a project, too.

[PinkyDragon]

Aw I'm so sad that the Frills are gone. I'm kind of happy though that I managed to get 2 more eggs a couple days ago... though I'm hoping to get one of them to be a female.

 

Layout is very beautiful by the way. b

[Akrona]

If your reaction to something that upsets hundreds of players and was completely unnecessary to begin with is "WELL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, LEAVE," you're in dire need of a change of perspective.

 

You talk about entitlement while completely ignoring the fact that the artists are not entitled to the users liking their work. 

 

Sure, Lyth has the right to emotionally blackmail the userbase by saying there "wasn't enough support" for Frills to continue as a breed in spite of a, what, 10+ page thread of nothing but people praising Frills -- but only because TJ didn't make her sign something that states that she doesn't.

QFE.

 

This is another thing that bothers me about this whole thing.

It is a real sign of immaturity when an artist cannot separate themselves from their art. I've seen people write this off as "putting themselves into their work" but if this is truly the case, one should not be submitting art to a website if they cannot see that people disliking their work is not at all an attack on them.

People are always going to hate on the sprites. Trust me. At the risk of bringing the vengeance of a thousand spriters upon my head, a friend of mine and I once went through all the DC sprites and mocked them. This was done privately, but it could have just as well been public, and while TJ can ban this sort of thing from the forum, he cannot censor the whole internet.

I fully accept the fact that if I put sprites up, some people will think they are awful, and some people will feel the need to tell me so. This is something that naturally comes when you use your art for commercial purposes (which is most certainly what you are doing in putting them up on a game site, even if you are not getting paid). But I don't get the sense that all the current spriters realize this.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Akrona

[Corteo]

Basically echoes exactly what your last point was.

Corteo, let's break this down a little. What is it you are saying here?

"I will pull my art if this site does something I don't support."

as in

"If TJ does something I don't like, I will actively hurt HIS website"

as in

"I have control over this website and I want to keep it"

 

This is what worries me about many of the artists here. Are they submitting it to help the site, or for power?

 

You know what? Your argument is compleatly invalid. Because your assuming things. If you gonna put words in my mouth, you better know me so you know what I would most likely say. And you don't.

 

And for your information, I'm spriting because I fricken enjoy it.

[Vicats]

You know what? Your argument is compleatly invalid. Because your assuming things. If you gonna put words in my mouth, you better know me so you know what I would most likely say. And you don't.

 

And for your information, I'm spriting because I fricken enjoy it.

Uh, I'd say that argument is pretty damned valid Cort, and is very much what you're suggesting you're willing to do. o_o'

[Akrona]

You know what? Your argument is compleatly invalid. Because your assuming things. If you gonna put words in my mouth, you better know me so you know what I would most likely say. And you don't.

 

And for your information, I'm spriting because I fricken enjoy it.

It is possible that that is not what you, specifically meant, but no more can I put words in your mouth can you be sure that this is not the case for EVERYONE. I was actually using your quote to pinpoint a general, and worrying, sense I get from some of the spriters here, that they are doing it for power.

 

Also, I did not ask why you sprite, I ask why you submit it to the site if you're so attached to it.

[tjekan]

I don't recall telling him he's not allowed to use the sprite. Frills will stay on scrolls and serve the same purpose they always have, outside of breeding, so that they won't be pissing people off anymore. Those who want them keep them. Those who don't will never have to look at another one again.

 

I fail to see how that is equivalent to pulling them or saying TJ is not allowed to use the sprite. If anything I'm keeping them there to spite those who want them killed off completely.

People aren't talking about just you, Lyth. This episode has frightened people with its implications for the future. I think people are starting to worry about what happens if another artist decides to take away their sprite, or if trolls upset an artist into pulling an entire breed, or so on. It's the uncertainty that is bothering people, not just you in particular. (In fact it was Dovealove who started this wave of concern in the first place, not even you.)

 

I do hope though, that you'll look back and notice just how many people are actually taking your side in this. Because you seem only to ever be responding to negative remarks, but truly, the majority of people here are actually siding with you-- even in this particular situation where a misunderstanding with TJ has made you seem to be going back on your word, more posters are STILL being positive towards you and your artwork.

[allmah]

Aww, it's kinda sad to see that (officially) the Frills are gone. I really liked them, and I'm glad I got two adults - both male, whoops - and a hatchling to remember them by.

[pokemonzoo]

...Does this mean my goldxfrill pair will have a less chance of producing a gold egg?

 

But yesh. I agree with Corteo. Lytharien was a volunteer and should have full rights over her work IMHO.

[Mustangs44]

...Does this mean my goldxfrill pair will have a less chance of producing a gold egg?

 

But yesh. I agree with Corteo. Lytharien was a volunteer and should have full rights over her work IMHO.

Frills breed like rares now, so you'll be getting refusals.

[Nashlina]

...Does this mean my goldxfrill pair will have a less chance of producing a gold egg?

 

But yesh. I agree with Corteo. Lytharien was a volunteer and should have full rights over her work IMHO.

It means you'll never be able to breed your Frill x Gold again, actually!

 

edit: NInja'd. T_T

Edited May 5, 2010 by Nashlina