05/04/10 - State of the Cave

[Bec]

You talk like I'm a child.

 

You want security from a bunch of volunteers? You treat them with a little more respect than saying I'm "touchy feely" about the camel's back breaking. The breed is dead because people hated them. Those who liked them didn't bother to stand up and defend them when they were under fire, not until the end of March when I made the announcement. I requested their retirement because the actions of the users showed me it was the right thing to do.

 

You'll have to excuse me for requesting removal of something that caused so much offense, grief and hatred. The other breeds I've done are fine enough, they're not loathed by the majority as the frills were.

Frills weren't hated by the majority. >_> The smallest dog barks the most.

 

I am sure people ignored the bashing because they didn't want to take part in it. There is a saying, "Don't feed the trolls." When you argue with people who are only there to cause problems it only gets worse. Not to mention heated discussions can get you in trouble even if you are on the right side.

 

Most people were not even aware of the Frill drama as they either don't frequent those forums very often or don't come to these forums at all. So no, I feel like you are in the wrong in saying that the majority wanted this and that the rest didn't care.

[Akrona]

No warning? Really? I've known for a whole month that they'd be gone soon, and started collecting then, It's your own fault for not taking advantage of the very first advanced warning... o-o

I think they mean warning that the deadline was being changed.

For instance, had I known this was happening a day earlier, I would have bred Arduhni yesterday instead of holding out for another 2nd gen PB Frill.

[*smiles*]

Wow...I didn't know frill eggs would be gone, and it's funny because I just got a frill hatchie before this was announced . Well, at least I got a couple. Sorry to those who didn't.

[chuhulil]

It is very upsetting to see the Frilled dragons go. I absolutely adored them! But, I guess that will make room for some new sprites. So that there isnt' an overcrowding of eggs.

 

And I like the layout. Very...spring.

[AngesRadieux]

This is exactly what I was going to say. I've not seen one instance of the massive hatred that people are claiming for this sprite. If I've missed it, please show me where! What I have seen is general annoyance at clogging the cave, but I've also see it applied to mints, vines, blacks, pinks and other such commons.

 

I really don't get where this supposed hatred is coming from.

I'm guessing that the "hatred" came from frustration. It was almost impossible to get caveborn frills, because they shared a description with three other eggs. People probably started ranting and venting because they were frustrated when they wanted a frill, but ended up with a skywing because of the shared description. And there was a period of time where the AP was filled with bred frills, and people were probably frustrated because they wanted to get their caveborn frills, and see something rarer than frills on the AP.

 

I didn't see the threads for sure, but I'm guessing that the "hatred" was just people venting and ranting and a whole bunch of sour grapes.

[Renorei]

No warning? Really? I've known for a whole month that they'd be gone soon, and started collecting then, It's your own fault for not taking advantage of the very first advanced warning... o-o

I started collecting them as well, but since I thought we had until the end of June, I collected other dragons as well. Had I known we'd only have such a short time to collect them, I'd have put everything else aside until my frill goals were met. As it is, I thought I still had plenty of time.

 

It's like if you know you have an exam coming up, and you have every reason to think the exam will be on May 20th, but then you go to class on April 30th and the professor starts handing out the exam, 20 days earlier than you thought it would be. Yes, you knew you'd be having an exam, but you didn't know it would be so soon, so you probably aren't prepared yet.

 

Yes, I know that this is TJ's site, not Lythiaren's. But, is it really so surprising that we users would trust an artist's word about when their work will get pulled? "The end of June" was all we had been told, and we were told that directly by the artist herself, and were given no other information, so it's entirely understandable that everyone believed this was the deadline.

[Akrona]

I'm guessing that the "hatred" came from frustration. It was almost impossible to get caveborn frills, because they shared a description with three other eggs. People probably started ranting and venting because they were frustrated when they wanted a frill, but ended up with a skywing because of the shared description. And there was a period of time where the AP was filled with bred frills, and people were probably frustrated because they wanted to get their caveborn frills, and see something rarer than frills on the AP.

 

I didn't see the threads for sure, but I'm guessing that the "hatred" was just people venting and ranting and a whole bunch of sour grapes.

You uh

you have that first part backwards, I think.

 

Before all this stupid drama frills were COMMON and it was Skywings everyone was after.

[tjekan]

No warning? Really? I've known for a whole month that they'd be gone soon, and started collecting then, It's your own fault for not taking advantage of the very first advanced warning... o-o

That's not really fair. First of all, this took people by surprise because the spriter herself told everybody we would have at least until the end of June. Since this assurance came directly from the spriter, I think it was reasonable of people to rely on it.

 

Second, unfortunately, a month is not a very long time in Dragon Cave. It meant only four chances to breed the frill I wanted to breed, and sadly, he did not produce a frill egg.

 

So yes, I'm disappointed. I'm not angry, because it really is Lythiaren's right to do what she wants to with her art, but I *am* very disappointed.

[AngesRadieux]

You uh

you have that first part backwards, I think.

 

Before all this stupid drama frills were COMMON and it was Skywings everyone was after.

Ah.

I had assumed that people were getting upset because they were getting horses/ochredrakes/skywings when they were hunting for frills.

 

Either way, I'm assuming that most of the hatred was directed towards the shared descriptions and availability instead of the sprite itself.

[arlymaye]

You uh

you have that first part backwards, I think.

 

Before all this stupid drama frills were COMMON and it was Skywings everyone was after.

Definitely backwards ... lol ... ppl were hunting for CB Skywings for Blunas and they got stuck with a frill. And then came all the venting but I don't think it was towards the sprite itself, more like out of total frustration that they didn't get what they want. If lets say a water share the same Strange description, ppl would be venting out on water too. That is how I see it.

[kath8562]

"<Lythiaren> Please retire the Frill from the cave.

<Lythiaren> Render their entire population infertile.

 

Which I did, in that order.-TJ"

 

 

Well, they still CAN breed- shows the breed option, lets you breed with *whatever*, gives you a egg of *whatever*, but won't let you abandon it! (comes back as invalid password, although is correct password.....) I think I'll let the illegitimate child grow up, unless you want make it go bye-bye......

 

http://dragcave.net/view/MWkR

[Nashlina]

People were *ing about frills mostly the same way they *ed about mints, greens, pinks, purples, and anything that was often seen clogging the AP. They just had the added frustration of sharing the same egg description as several other dragon types. And! People didn't complain about how the sprite looked often enough that Frills could be considered singled out. Mints, on the other hand, got skinned, quartered, and roasted on spits, regularly and with great gusto.

 

People bred frills consistently because they liked them. If you can't see that, then you're voluntarily blinding yourself.

 

From the standpoint of somebody who has been in your shoes, Lythiaren, almost down to the very last detail -- in a few years, you will do your best to forget this event ever happened. Not because you want to strike a horrible memory of "persecution" from your brain, but because your behavior is going to embarrass you. Please believe me on this.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Nashlina

[Akrona]

"<Lythiaren> Please retire the Frill from the cave.

<Lythiaren> Render their entire population infertile.

 

Which I did, in that order.-TJ"

 

 

Well, they still CAN breed- shows the breed option, lets you breed with *whatever*, gives you a egg of *whatever*, but won't let you abandon it! (comes back as invalid password, although is correct password.....) I think I'll let the illegitimate child grow up, unless you want make it go bye-bye......

 

http://dragcave.net/view/MWkR

That invalid password thing sounds like a problem on your end.

 

Anyway, yes, they CAN still breed, but will never produce a Frill egg, and they now breed like Rares (they won't breed with uncommons, rares, or each other)

[Nashlina]

Oh yeah. And for something that isn't directly Lyth related: Sadako is right. This site absolutely, 100% needs an agreement that revokes an artist's "right" to remove their artwork. This is not and has never been an art gallery.

[Akrona]

Oh yeah. And for something that isn't directly Lyth related: Sadako is right. This site absolutely, 100% needs an agreement that revokes an artist's "right" to remove their artwork. This is not and has never been an art gallery.

The problem with this is some of the incave artists oppose this.

A contract is being worked on, according to those I know with access to the sekrit artist subforum. It seems to be that the current contract is that 'a sprite cannot be pulled unless you provide one to replace it' though hopefully this includes some sort of guarentee of quality, so people won't try pulling something and offering stuff like this as a "replacement":

 

[Mustangs44]

The problem with this is some of the incave artists oppose this.

A contract is being worked on, according to those I know with access to the sekrit artist subforum. It seems to be that the current contract is that 'a sprite cannot be pulled unless you provide one to replace it' though hopefully this includes some sort of guarentee of quality, so people won't try pulling something and offering stuff like this as a "replacement":

 

Scribble dragons?

 

 

The new skin looks awesome so far, TJ~! 8D

[Angziety]

The problem with this is some of the incave artists oppose this.

A contract is being worked on, according to those I know with access to the sekrit artist subforum. It seems to be that the current contract is that 'a sprite cannot be pulled unless you provide one to replace it' though hopefully this includes some sort of guarentee of quality, so people won't try pulling something and offering stuff like this as a "replacement":

 

I shall call him epic dragon of awsome sauce >=V

 

In accuality though I don't see many artists pulling art for anything less than tj selling the sight or suporting genocide =x

[Vicats]

It would likely be more like a warning system. "I am leaving the site and would like to take my Bob Dragon, My Joseph Dragon, and my Waffle Dragon art with me for use in a different project. I would like to have that separate running in a month's time if at all possible" and then the artists would set to making a replacement, trying to keep within the original artist's deadline.

[Akrona]

I shall call him epic dragon of awsome sauce >=V

 

In accuality though I don't see many artists pulling art for anything less than tj selling the sight or suporting genocide =x

This may be the case now, but don't forget that new artists are brought in with practically every release.

And you never know. Sometimes people act like jerks all of a sudden. I've seen it happen before.

[tjekan]

Oh yeah. And for something that isn't directly Lyth related: Sadako is right. This site absolutely, 100% needs an agreement that revokes an artist's "right" to remove their artwork. This is not and has never been an art gallery.

The problem with that is that the original dragon sprites were given to TJ by the artists on a temporary, volunteer basis. If the artists now WANT to enter into a paid contract where they give him permanent usage rights then great, but if they don't, they can't be forced to.

 

Beautiful though the sprites are, it bothers me more to lose a breed of dragon entirely. If things like this must be done in the future, I really appreciated the way old pinks were phased out. We were given advance warning so that we could get our old pink affairs in order, and after that, old pinks simply bred new pinks, so there was no disruption to lineages. It was relatively painless and drama-free. I vote for transitions like that if it is needed in the future. :-)

[Nashlina]

The problem with this is some of the incave artists oppose this.

A contract is being worked on, according to those I know with access to the sekrit artist subforum. It seems to be that the current contract is that 'a sprite cannot be pulled unless you provide one to replace it' though hopefully this includes some sort of guarentee of quality, so people won't try pulling something and offering stuff like this as a "replacement":

 

I'm not seeing how something that wishy-washy would stop this from happening, unless it becomes a requirement that every artist have a replacement ready the minute it gets submitted. :/

 

(btw, I'd kill for a dragon that looked like that. )

 

edit: tjekan - You don't have to be paid to be made to sign a contract. You sign one the minute you make an account on any site that requires account creation, as long as they say "YOU MUST READ AND AGREE TO THE TOS."

 

TJ could write anything he wanted into the contract, such as artists retain the right to sell work based on their submission, or make it two-way, or whatever it is that the artists themselves are scared of. He doesn't even really have to do it in legalese, as long as he clearly states that artists revoke the right of revocation.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Nashlina

[Corteo]

Oh yeah.  And for something that isn't directly Lyth related:  Sadako is right.  This site absolutely, 100% needs an agreement that revokes an artist's "right" to remove their artwork.  This is not and has never been an art gallery.

I beg to differ. Do you know how hard you have to work for the dragon? Work is defined as when you make something move. When you click your mouse to pick up the egg, you burn .0004 calories. That's it. And your dragon grows up in 7 days. Big whoop. Not a whole lot. The users aren't entitled to anything. At all. You chose to play the game. Your not losing anything if something get's changed or pulled. To lose something, you have to own it first. And clicking a image of a egg that links you to a page with a copy of the art does not mean that you own it.

 

I don't see why everyone is set on removing rights. I could see that if it was a commission. But it's not. Frankly it's not your place to demand it, nor anyone other than TJ and the in cave artists. You are simply a bystander who gets the opportunity to enjoy a wonderful game. You have no say in what happens, in terms of a contract.

 

I completely support Lyth in that, it's her choice. And she should not have to put up with over what she decided to do with her art. Not the users. Hers.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Corteo

[PinkyHedgehog]

So, that's means that I will never get a Male Frill? or different sprites for both genders? or an Ascendance?

 

 

 

 

 

...I dunno why, but some hate is starting to grow inside me...

[Renhart]

Nice spring layout.

Too bad it will be a bit late but keep up the good work.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Booo

[NewfyAngel]

People were *ing about frills mostly the same way they *ed about mints, greens, pinks, purples, and anything that was often seen clogging the AP. They just had the added frustration of sharing the same egg description as several other dragon types. And! People didn't complain about how the sprite looked often enough that Frills could be considered singled out. Mints, on the other hand, got skinned, quartered, and roasted on spits, regularly and with great gusto.

 

People bred frills consistently because they liked them. If you can't see that, then you're voluntarily blinding yourself.

 

From the standpoint of somebody who has been in your shoes, Lythiaren, almost down to the very last detail -- in a few years, you will do your best to forget this event ever happened. Not because you want to strike a horrible memory of "persecution" from your brain, but because your behavior is going to embarrass you. Please believe me on this.

THIS.... People complained more about mints than they ever complained about Frills. And I guess Lyth also ignored the fact that people couldn't get frills and would trade almost anything for one.... The frills sprites weren't hated.

 

I was hoping to get another pair, but I was only occasionally looking for one, so I'm left with one pair. I also happen to have a nice, cute frozen army of them, so I guess I have nothing to complain about. I always like the frills and always had the intent of getting more, but they were common, so breeding lineages and collecting rares/new dragons always ended up being a higher priority. Now, I can't have them anymore. I suppose I could classify them as rares and at them to my lineage project... Nah, I doubt I'll do that.

 

I will also agree with Sadako on the necessity of an agreement between artist and TJ, so that this does not happen again. There has been too much drama and too many artists threatening to do this to us and it really bugs me. It bugs me that they can and will do this, at the drop of the hat. It comes off as temper tantrums all the time, and it shines a bad light on them.

 

I'm reading through this, laughing at all the drama of everyone being upset with TJ over the misunderstanding, when it looks like it was a miscommunication between both of them and you should be as upset at Lyth for that. This is as much her fault, if she never said anything about June to him, and you cannot expect him to have read her every post on the matter, nor her signature for that matter. I doubt he has the time to. This thread also makes me want to shake people and tell them to go cry in the emo corner.