Abandoned Page Compendium - Display Suggestions

[tjekan]

3 hours ago, BrazenChase said:

I "massbreed" my Xenos in order to try and get miscolored Xenowyrms on purpose. It's not an act of malice, and I'm not doing it to spite anyone. They're all either 2g PBs or 2g checker starters. I often see people trying to trade them on the hub--so yay, folks like them!

 

Then your eggs aren't forming a wall and aren't the reason for these suggestions.

 

What you're talking about should really be a market-driven thing. If there is a lot of demand for the eggs someone breeds, like you describe, then they will get picked right up and the fact that there are a limited number of your eggs that will be shown on the AP at once will be completely irrelevant. If there isn't enough demand for the eggs somebody breeds, then they'll sit there and the breeder's other eggs will start stacking up behind them, but that's still no big deal--they'll all get picked up eventually once they get low-time anyway.

 

I remain baffled by the derisive reactions to "cherry-picking." Cherry-picking is the entire point of the AP. People go there to sift through all the piles of stuff they don't want to see if they can find a few things they do. We should be trying to stop UNFAIR cherry-picking, yes--like somebody with a bot who goes through and grabs everything valuable first--but if people are just "cherry-picking" by refusing to take messy mints they don't want and continuing to look for something they consider better, well good for them--that's just as valid a play style as breeding to the AP is. 🙂

 

The AP has been a lot more varied recently. I don't know if something has been implemented or there's just naturally less massbreeding going on in the lull between holidays...

[Keileon]

1 hour ago, tjekan said:

The AP has been a lot more varied recently. I don't know if something has been implemented or there's just naturally less massbreeding going on in the lull between holidays...

I think it's just that there's less massbreeding happening-- especially with Thuweds being more of a thing lately. I notice fewer massbreeds around the time of Thuwed drops (though not zero, so don't start) probably because the people massbreeding want to be able to predict when the eggs turn up, and a wall prevents that from being as easy.

[BrazenChase]

3 hours ago, tjekan said:

 

Then your eggs aren't forming a wall and aren't the reason for these suggestions.

 

One of the suggestions was to limit how much a single user is able to breed in a certain timespan.

I have over 600 Xenos I breed, which is at least 300 pairs.

This would in fact affect me even though--as you said: My activity is not part of the supposed problem.

[tjekan]

Actually that would probably still not have hit the cap that was being proposed, then. People were talking about 200 eggs a day originally. Extremely unlikely 300 PB xeno breedings would produce more than 200 eggs!

 

In any case, though, I agree with you--a limitation on daily breeding would have been the least desirable of these solutions. I don't think that one is even under serious consideration anymore. Last I heard TJ was looking into limiting how many eggs from a single breeder are displayed on the front page of the AP at once, which I think would work great!

[olympe]

15 hours ago, tjekan said:

I remain baffled by the derisive reactions to "cherry-picking." Cherry-picking is the entire point of the AP. People go there to sift through all the piles of stuff they don't want to see if they can find a few things they do. We should be trying to stop UNFAIR cherry-picking, yes--like somebody with a bot who goes through and grabs everything valuable first--but if people are just "cherry-picking" by refusing to take messy mints they don't want and continuing to look for something they consider better, well good for them--that's just as valid a play style as breeding to the AP is. 🙂

I don't think cherry-picking itself, within the area everyone can see, is the problem. But cherry-picking of eggs other players can't even see yet - be that due to filtering, an automatic filtering routine or pagination.

[Fuzzbucket]

18 minutes ago, olympe said:

I don't think cherry-picking itself, within the area everyone can see, is the problem. But cherry-picking of eggs other players can't even see yet - be that due to filtering, an automatic filtering routine or pagination.

 

Exactly. And TJ has said we must all see the same thing - so I think that even knocks out pagination. Which would in any case be a nightmare on mobile.

[tjekan]

Well, pagination would give people the chance to all see the same thing... just as the biomes give people the chance to all see the same thing. If you and I are in different biomes we wouldn't see the same thing, but if we were both in the same one, we always would. So I don't think it would inherently go against that principle.

 

It might be way too unwieldy though, especially on mobile. There are only 6 biomes. To have any hope at all of getting around a wall, there would have to be at least 20 pages of AP, probably more. That's a lot of extra clicking just to compensate for other people's breeding sprees. I think the display limits are really the way to go on this.

[_DeadPool_]

I'm really having a hard time understanding the hatred for walls. What it seems to boil down to is "I want to see more color".

As far as the "I only have [X time] to play and walls limit my playability" objection, walls really don't change much. I think I'm a pretty average player: I generally don't like messies and really only pick up nice checkers or 2gs. And it can often take me hours to find something in a non-walled ap that i think is worth taking. So havinf only short windows of time to play wouldnt really matter much here whether it was a wall or not. Chances are I wouldn't find anything anyway. And walls do nothing more than delay other stuff. Why does a small delay matter so much?

 

Massbreeding is fun for a lot of people. Negatively affecting their gameplay because someone else wants to see more pretty colors in the AP all the time seems a silly reason to change how people can breed or how their eggs are shown. 

[Fiona]

We aren't talking about limiting their playstyle. That was proposed but not received with enthusiasm. Limiting how many of one breeder's eggs display on the AP at a time doesn't stop them from breeding them.

[_DeadPool_]

Then im lost on what the complaints are for. What is wrong with the ap as it is, if the complaint isnt that it ompacts others playstyles?

[Ruby Eyes]

18 minutes ago, _DeadPool_ said:

if the complaint isnt that it ompacts others playstyles?

That IS the complaint, but it's not a SOLUTION to do so.

 

Problem: hours and hours of the same breed over and over and frigging over again.

Proposed solution: limit the DISPLAY of what one player's playstyle produced (as opposed to the original idea to limit the playstyle itself: number of breedings within a given timespan)

[olympe]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

That IS the complaint, but it's not a SOLUTION to do so.

 

Problem: hours and hours of the same breed over and over and frigging over again.

Proposed solution: limit the DISPLAY of what one player's playstyle produced (as opposed to the original idea to limit the playstyle itself: number of breedings within a given timespan)

Not just the same breed, but also the same kind of lineage. Either all messies, all checkers or all 2nd (or, rarely, 3rd/4th) gens of the same older common x newer common pairing - usually all giving the same kind of egg.

[_DeadPool_]

But it seems like this is a "solution" that only has a possibility of doing anything.

A) the problem is People arent interested in the breed/lineage of egg in the ap and the ap is full of them and they dont have a ton of time to play.

B: Most of the time the AP is full of things people don't want. The AP sits at high time for days on end with the same lines/breeds in it and no one picks them up. Really, how often do you see stuff other than Ridgwings, Canopies, Dorsals, Teimarrs, and the occasional BSA?

C) How does this not boil down to "I want more colors in the AP?" If the result is the same (very few eggs get picked up out of the AP and it just sits at high time), why does it matter?

[Fiona]

Because what you're saying isn't really what is happening.

 

A. Currently all the eggs in the AP get picked up eventually. So someone is obviously interested in that line.

B. We can't conclude that the AP is full of stuff that people don't want because it does get adopted eventually. However, as TJ pointed out in his post on the first page, a few people are able to disproportionately affect others play by mass breeding hundreds of one of two breeds, such as the blacktip/celestial wall that was going on when the original thread was created. The stats TJ posted were 0.5% of the players who had eggs in the AP queue bred (at that time) 25% of the eggs in the queue. So a very few people are controlling what shows in the AP for people to pick from.

C. It really boils down to not allowing a small subset of players to have an undue influence on what appears in the AP, but still allowing those players to play as they like.

[_DeadPool_]

Okay, well if everything gets adopted eventually, I still don't see a problem. From what ive noticed, big walls (like the blacktip/celestials) don't happen all that often. It seems like it still comes down to some people want tmto change things so they don't have to look at what currently (based on the system now) has priority/seniority/whatever. It just seems like we're proposing a change, potentially making the system more complicated just so people don't have to see stuff they dont wanna see. 😕 Which just seems unnecessary.

[_DeadPool_]

But i suppose, if there had to be a solution implemented id suggest a per breeder AND per breed limit. So say one breeder breeds lihnseyres and both prize breeds, id suggest 3 of each breed from that one breeder be allowed to be shown

[Ruby Eyes]

26 minutes ago, _DeadPool_ said:

From what ive noticed, big walls (like the blacktip/celestials) don't happen all that often.

You didn't notice today's Nocturne wall? Lucky you. It screwed up my hunting plans for several hours.

These walls happen more and more often. We don't need to wait for everyone to notice them before we ask for a tiny change.

[Fiona]

I would say the nocturne wall was relatively short-lived, compared to the blacktip wall, which lasted... what? two days? I don't remember. But yes, the walls are becoming much more frequent, sometimes even happening every day. I used to be in the "do nothing" camp, because I don't really hunt the ap that much. But I think we've reached the point where doing nothing in not a good option.

[purplehaze]

I was also firmly in the do nothing camp until recently. But the walls are becoming not only more frequent, but also much larger and lasting longer.

Yes, I know you won't always find what you are looking for in the AP, even when it has more breeds in it, but at least there will be more variety and more chance to find what you do want. More breeds from more different breeders usually means more different types of lineage, too.

Edited November 26, 2019 by purplehaze

[olympe]

54 minutes ago, _DeadPool_ said:

But i suppose, if there had to be a solution implemented id suggest a per breeder AND per breed limit. So say one breeder breeds lihnseyres and both prize breeds, id suggest 3 of each breed from that one breeder be allowed to be shown

I think this needs to depend on the actual numbers. If one breeder has up to 3 spots in the AP, I wouldn't mind them getting 3 extra spots for a 2nd breed - or even 3 more for a third breed. But even so, I think there needs to be an upper limit for each breeder, or people who breed their whole scroll will still be able to dominate/block the AP for a long time.

 

However, if each player could have 15 spots in the AP (=50% of what's visible), I don't think they should get another 15 spots for a second breed they bred - or they'd just block the whole AP with only two breeds.

 

Idea for a compromise:

What if every player could have up to 6 spots (= 20% of the AP), but no more than 3 per breed? So, if someone breeds only one breed, the eggs will only show up in three allotted spots. If someone else breeds 2+ breeds, the eggs will show up in 6 spots. Maybe even make it so that, if there are more than 3 breeds involved in a wall (bred by one player), there are only ever 2 eggs of the same breed shown at once...

[_DeadPool_]

I'd find that at least more acceptable. The only math breeds I ever do are the hoards I have of Gloris/Galv/Gemi/Lihn/Kovos/Vrem.  And I think it'd be a real shame not to be able to see at least two or three of those breathe if I did it again. I only ever do that once a month at most because I don't feel like spending two or three hours breeding everything. But I also don't want to see my stuff die because it won't be seen.

[purplehaze]

3 minutes ago, _DeadPool_ said:

I'd find that at least more acceptable. The only math breeds I ever do are the hoards I have of Gloris/Galv/Gemi/Lihn/Kovos/Vrem.  And I think it'd be a real shame not to be able to see at least two or three of those breathe if I did it again. I only ever do that once a month at most because I don't feel like spending two or three hours breeding everything. But I also don't want to see my stuff die because it won't be seen.

Nothing is going to die. As the time on the eggs in a breeder's queue get lower than the time of other eggs on the AP, which is what it seems to me will happen, then people will start to pick them up. And if you are breeding nice lineages that people want then the times won't probably even get that low.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

I was also firmly in the do nothing camp until recently. But the walls are becoming not only more frequent, but also much larger and lasting longer.

Yes, I know you won't always find what you are looking for in the AP, even when it has more breeds in it, but at least there will be more variety and more chance to find what you do want. More breeds from more different breeders usually means more different types of lineage, too.

 

1 hour ago, Fiona said:

I would say the nocturne wall was relatively short-lived, compared to the blacktip wall, which lasted... what? two days? I don't remember. But yes, the walls are becoming much more frequent, sometimes even happening every day. I used to be in the "do nothing" camp, because I don't really hunt the ap that much. But I think we've reached the point where doing nothing in not a good option.

 

Exactly this. I was all for leave it - and I don't even trawl the AP that often. But recently it has been wall after wall.

 

39 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

Nothing is going to die. As the time on the eggs in a breeder's queue get lower than the time of other eggs on the AP, which is what it seems to me will happen, then people will start to pick them up. And if you are breeding nice lineages that people want then the times won't probably even get that low.

 

This too. 3 per breeder works for me. Even 5.

[RAAMIsABeast]

5 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

You didn't notice today's Nocturne wall? Lucky you. It screwed up my hunting plans for several hours.

These walls happen more and more often. We don't need to wait for everyone to notice them before we ask for a tiny change.

 

As far as I am aware, as a 99% AP hunter myself, the wall of Nocturnes rarely, *if ever*, fully blocked over eggs from coming through, which makes that statement a little bit of an exaggeration. I definately noticed it, and would have taken some had I not been egg locked.

 

Not for or against any of these suggestions, but I'm in the do nothing camp most of all, mainly for those sweet sweet low times after a wall. ❤ After all, that's why I use the AP. 

[Shadowdrake]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

But even so, I think there needs to be an upper limit for each breeder, or people who breed their whole scroll will still be able to dominate/block the AP for a long time.

I'm not sure why this would be a problem?  Someone breeding their scroll would be contributing to the ap in a visibly varied way, unlike walls which will usually end up catering to only the few people who want the breed. Mixed "walls" will usually vanish far faster than equivalent-length single-breed common walls.