Abandoned Page Compendium - Display Suggestions

[Stormcaller]

We've talked and talked about this problem and it doesn't seem like we have made any actual progress.   It would help if we could get some more direction from TJ.  Is there something specific he's waiting for us to bring up or discuss further?   What can we actually do but go around in circles at this point?

 

[Fuzzbucket]

All we know is that he said he is looking into solutions. I think he gets the problem.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Start a new one ?

I just might...

[Keileon]

Poking my head back into this thread to comment that I'd be a lot more receptive to a couple of solutions posed in this thread if there was some tweak to how the system works, as mentioned by tkt1780. If there wasn't a NEED to bring AP times down or affect ratios, then my "preferred solution" would move from inaction to limiting by breeder.

 

But yes, the specifics of that kind of change would have to go in its own thread, since it's less about the AP and more about overhauling some of the game's base mechanics. I only bring it up here and now as an addendum to my earlier posts and stance on the solutions suggested here.

 

THAT SAID I argue that this topic can't be properly addressed without the topic of whether or not AP walls are bad being inherently tied in. There's a lot of talk about solutions, but then you have people like me who don't think a solution is needed (at least not an AP-centric one) and in order to properly discuss that stance one HAS to delve into why they think AP walls are perfectly fine. I apologize if this paragraph makes my post spam, but it's legitimately a concern I have about giving this topic that rule.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Keileon

[Fuzzbucket]

43 minutes ago, Keileon said:

THAT SAID I argue that this topic can't be properly addressed without the topic of whether or not AP walls are bad being inherently tied in. There's a lot of talk about solutions, but then you have people like me who don't think a solution is needed (at least not an AP-centric one) and in order to properly discuss that stance one HAS to delve into why they think AP walls are perfectly fine. I apologize if this paragraph makes my post spam, but it's legitimately a concern I have about giving this topic that rule.

 

 The topic of ratios certainly can - I do think they need work; not being able to create common checkers is INFURIATING, but I agree about the AP. It isn't broken, it is a game mechanic some like and some hate, is all.

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

 The topic of ratios certainly can - I do think they need work; not being able to create common checkers is INFURIATING, but I agree about the AP. It isn't broken, it is a game mechanic some like and some hate, is all.

Well, most of us (I think) hated the random hatching times - when eggs could only hatch at a random time between 3 and 4 days left. Which usually meant closer to 3 days left. *grumbles* Or how we couldn't trade between scrolls without dire risk of losing our trade. (And, yes, there were quite a few people campaigning against teleport.) Some things do get changed though, and others don't.

[cyradis4]

I'm in the group of "Walls serve a purpose, and those wanted to get rid of the walls are actually killing the golden goose". So instead of trying to fix the AP walls, which are symptoms of other problems, how about the actual *problems* get fixed, so there is no reason to create the walls? 

 

Why do people create AP walls? 

1. To reduce the AP time 

2. To over-time shift the ratio of a breed so they can breed common x common lines 

3. To be a pest (least common reason)

 

 

So, to start with:

 

1. To reduce AP time

The reason the AP time increases is because people are not breeding enough eggs to drive the time down, or they are not abandoning enough eggs from the Biomes to drop the time down. There's a couple of ways to fix this. 

My favorite: kick eggs that sit in the biomes for 5 minutes to the AP. If an egg is sitting in the Biomes for 5 minutes, then its not wanted at that time. So, toss it to the AP to gain value. This will:

- Help the ratios of that breed by getting more into circulation

- Help the Biomes move

- Drop the AP time and decrease the desire for walls

- Everyone benefits from a reduced AP time, faster biomes, and stabler ratios. 

 

2. Affect breed ratios

I know the reason I've collected a few walls, and bred walls more than once, was so I could used a much-wanted breed to build common x common bloodlines. Walls, if they number in the several hundred eggs, can shift the ratios just enough to make it possible to use that breed. 

The solution: Fix New Breed Syndrome

- Increases people breeding to the AP by making it so they can do common x common lineages again

- Removes the need / desire to mass-breed for ratio correction: they can breed what they want without having to spedn the time and effort to mass-breed

 

3. To be a pest

Fix the above 2 problems, and this is reduced to a very small subset of the time. To be frank, its time intensive and troublesome to build AP walls. You have to first collect enough of a breed to build one, then you have to spend an hour or two (or more) breeding the wall. 

 

Lastly, if there "needs" to be a fix for a useful mechanic, then.... setting view limits is probably the least disruptive, but I would set that limit to "always shows 3 breeds". You might still get a wall of 3 breeds, but it will provide some variety without causing AP backups that cause far more problems than they solve. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

[Fuzzbucket]

*applauds*

[Haloclimb]

I agree with cyradis. If you want walls to be (mostly) stopped, then solve the root problem instead of just getting rid of the symptoms. And I can say for #3- as someone who has been motivated to 'spite breed' before, I got maybe 10 dragons in before going 'why am I wasting my time with this? I can be doing literally anything else right now' and closing the tab. Even if you just solve the ratio problems, you'll knock a good chunk of massbreeders out.
I also really like the suggestion to kick caveblockers to the AP as well- I know it has been suggested before in different ways (I still miss the mossy eggs suggestion....) and I still think it's a great idea. Not many people want a CB canopy at 7 days, but a CB canopy at 4 days or less is suddenly a lot more attractive!

[tjekan]

On 1/8/2020 at 7:49 AM, cyradis4 said:

I'm in the group of "Walls serve a purpose, and those wanted to get rid of the walls are actually killing the golden goose".

 

Though I agree with your root idea to address root problems (preferably in addition to improving the AP), I think this is a very poor characterization of the situation.

 

1) The AP walls are not a "golden goose." They are a clumsy, largely ineffective solution to these problems; they're just the only solution frustrated players feel like they have. But they actually have very little effect. The ratios have budged only slightly after months of concerted mass breeding. The same problems are still rampant, massbreeding has come nowhere near fixing them.

 

2) You can't assume that the userbase in general cares about these problems more than they care about being unable to use the AP. *I* happen to care about both, and would very much like to see ratios fixed. Many users, however, don't breed checkers and couldn't care less if a blacktip-celestial pairing produces a celestial 30% of the time instead of 25%. They may care more that the AP is blocked 30% of the time they look at it. What seems like a golden egg to one user may seem like a rotten egg to another.

 

Basically my problem with the walls is that they only function by means of a few people FORCING many other people who don't even care about their agenda to spend their time supporting it. Thousands of other users have to pick up and hatch the unwanted massbred stuff for the ratios to be affected. As TJ noted, you've got less than 1% of the userbase controlling the AP and making others play a certain way. This is an ugly, lumpy fix for a problem it isn't even really solving.

 

Yes, let's come up with a better solution for broken ratios. But let's also change the AP to let people play how THEY want to, not how a few users want to make them play. We can do both. The proposed display fix wouldn't even stop people from massbreeding just as much as before while waiting for a ratio fix.

[OMGitsKairi]

32 minutes ago, tjekan said:

Basically my problem with the walls is that they only function by means of a few people FORCING many other people who don't even care about their agenda to spend their time supporting it. Thousands of other users have to pick up and hatch the unwanted massbred stuff for the ratios to be affected. As TJ noted, you've got less than 1% of the userbase controlling the AP and making others play a certain way. This is an ugly, lumpy fix for a problem it isn't even really solving.

 

Yes, let's come up with a better solution for broken ratios. But let's also change the AP to let people play how THEY want to, not how a few users want to make them play. We can do both. The proposed display fix wouldn't even stop people from massbreeding just as much as before while waiting for a ratio fix.

 

This is basically how I'm feeling. Regardless of the reasoning behind the AP walls, they are still disrupting others' play for hours or even days at a time.

[Tawanda001]

Ditto, I'd also like to point out that high time eggs in the AP and skewed ratios are no more 'inherently bad' than walls are. Personally I don't see that a player based attempt at a 'fix' by creating walls is the solution when it comes at the expense of others not being able to play in the AP. Failing anything else I'm ready for TJ to implement a limit of how many eggs a breeder will show at any one time. Along with some OTHER way to try to fix high times and ratios that some (not me) players may not be happy with.

[Fuzzbucket]

UMMM this thread is about display ideas to minimise disruption isn't it ? Just asking....

[Tawanda001]

Apparently about opinions too, I do see a post defending the 'why' of walls.

[Stormcaller]

1 hour ago, tjekan said:

1) The AP walls are not a "golden goose." They are a clumsy, largely ineffective solution to these problems; they're just the only solution frustrated players feel like they have...

 

Right now we are experiencing another Celestial and Nocturn wall.  I don't know when it started, but I first saw it at 10:33 cave time.  Look, these breeders may be acting out by making walls because they are frustrated, but what about other players who depend on free use of the AP?  The only options we have is to complain or to whine about it, and if we do those things we eventually get in trouble and end up with a closed thread.

 

TJ has already acknowledged that this is a problem.  Let's try to encourage him to act swiftly to correct it.

[tjekan]

53 minutes ago, Stormcaller said:

The only options we have is to complain or to whine about it, and if we do those things we eventually get in trouble and end up with a closed thread.

 

Only if you insult the other players whilst whining and complaining. If you don't do that, whining and complaining is 100% legal here. 🙂

 

Like you, though, I hope TJ--having already agreed there is a problem and weighed in on a display change as a potential solution--will take action soon. The proposed display change is a really good compromise in that it will both allow mass breeders to continue massbreeding AND allow everyone else to hunt in the AP simultaneously. A real improvement in ratios would be the cherry on the sundae.

Edited January 9, 2020 by tjekan

[olympe]

35 minutes ago, tjekan said:

 

Only if you insult the other players whilst whining and complaining. If you don't do that, whining and complaining is 100% legal here. 🙂

 

Like you, though, I hope TJ--having already agreed there is a problem and weighed in on a display change as a potential solution--will take action soon. The proposed display change is a really good compromise in that it will both allow mass breeders to continue massbreeding AND allow everyone else to hunt in the AP simultaneously. A real improvement in ratios would be the cherry on the sundae.

I very much agree with this. Yes to AP "fixes". Yes to improving the impact of ratios - especially on new breeds.

[Stormcaller]

It's now 11:15 pm cave time and the wall is still going strong...   I hope it's gone by the morning.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's over. Tish's nocturnes have taken over.

[Auriene]

Honestly, I think that current AP problems can be fixed only by fixing ratios - or by giving people any other reasonable option to breed that common they want without the need of creating walls... (influence an egg by a parent or something, I think there was a discussion about that one somewhere).

 

I wonder how many of those adopted 'wallers' actually count towards ratios later, and how many are simply frozen or released (and if I remember correctly, released dragons and frozen hatchlings don't count towards ratios). Personally, I never participate in 'cleaning' AP - I want to have on my scroll only dragons I want, not dragons someone else needs me to have because ratios, lineages or whatnot. Unfortunately, I am terribly picky when it comes to lineaged dragons and I prefer to build my own lineages, so sorry, I won't pick up that Celestial or Nocturne even if it is super low-time or can be insta-hatched. I bet that I am not the only one.

 

I used to like to hunt in AP for abadoned CBs, for lineaged name-codes for freezing or for unique lineages I'd like to keep. For some reason though, massive walls seem to be a more common thing now than those few years ago I began to play. This is the main reason why I ignore AP more and more often, and I really wish it could change somehow...

[Fuzzbucket]

Tish did post her reasoning somewhere.

 

But displaying only a few from each breeder WOULD cut the size walls down and seems the fairest solution.

[Auriene]

34 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Tish did post her reasoning somewhere.

 

But displaying only a few from each breeder WOULD cut the size walls down and seems the fairest solution.

 

I agree that displaying a limited number of eggs from each breeder, or of one breed, would surely help... but I have a feeling that it would be only masking the real problem - the ratios

 

Besides, I can't help but wonder, with the limited display - is there a chance that some of those 'wallers' would simply die? I mean, now many people feel forced or obliged to pick them up, to uncover the eggs beyond the wall. With the wall not being a problem anymore, creating walls may lose its purpose. I know that many players would pick up and hatch anything that is low-time, though, so maybe that would still work somehow.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Auriene

[Toyo]

 

56 minutes ago, Auriene said:

I used to like to hunt in AP for abadoned CBs, for lineaged name-codes for freezing or for unique lineages I'd like to keep. For some reason though, massive walls seem to be a more common thing now than those few years ago I began to play. This is the main reason why I ignore AP more and more often, and I really wish it could change somehow...

 

As someone who plays frequently but only intermittently, let me just say: since the Holiday wall ended, I've only seen the AP with a normal mix of eggs a handful of times. That means almost every time I've checked the AP, there's been some sort of wall going on. At least for me, it hasn't been an inconvenience that I can simply wait out; due to the limited time I have online, walls have changed the way I get to play this game. 

[Stormcaller]

47 minutes ago, Toyo said:

...let me just say: since the Holiday wall ended, I've only seen the AP with a normal mix of eggs a handful of times. That means almost every time I've checked the AP, there's been some sort of wall going on. At least for me, it hasn't been an inconvenience that I can simply wait out; due to the limited time I have online, walls have changed the way I get to play this game. 

 

Right, there has been a wall going on, with intermittent spells or a regular mix, ever since the holiday eggs finished.  It's changed my way of play too, and not for the better.

 

It's 9:30 am cave time and we're starting the second day of this wall. The eggs may change, but a wall is a wall.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Auriene said:

Besides, I can't help but wonder, with the limited display - is there a chance that some of those 'wallers' would simply die? I mean, now many people feel forced or obliged to pick them up, to uncover the eggs beyond the wall. With the wall not being a problem anymore, creating walls may lose its purpose. I know that many players would pick up and hatch anything that is low-time, though, so maybe that would still work somehow.

 

So what ? Wallers need to allow for that - it will happen anyway. If I had the space I'd be catching and killing them off, even now !