ANSWERED:Neglected Dragon Breeding

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Sazandora lore can and has been updated in the past. Pinks and purples were "only female," papers could be male or female, reds suddenly started being entrusted with incubating eggs out of nowhere (even though their encyclopedia claims they actually EAT other dragons, a fact that was added after incubate--interesting!). So while lore does matter, I think (within reason, of course) suggestions should be discussed on their own merits. Gameplay beats out lore when it has to. The question just is, how much of a boon to gameplay would this be?

 

43 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

They are traumatized, they are aggressive, they are anti-social, it's hard to imagine them *wanting* to breed

 

Actually, abuse victims can often become abusers themselves, so they could enter into relationships for that purpose. That's delicate stuff, though, so I'll return to my above stance: I think lore can be tweaked a bit to fit gameplay, and I think this change would fall within those limits, which makes the bigger question if the result is worth the tweaking.

Edited December 1, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Done]

23 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

And, y'know, the encyclopedia also very clearly states that NDs are sterile. Utterly incapable of reproduction as their bodies can't handle it due to their weakened state. "Fairly stable" does not mean perfectly fine and healthy and strong.

 

I'm assuming this was more of a response to Marie19R, however I did state in my original post that slight alterations to the current lore would be required... This would be one of those changes, which is why I quoted that line of the encyclopedia entry specifically.

 

59 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

Oh God please please please NO. Having such slight extraneous gender differences in NDs when getting just one is already so hard was horrific enough, if that got multiplied across even more sprites I'd want to rip my hair out. Zombies are horrible enough and they're EASY compared to Neglecteds.

 

As for the original ND breeding suggestion--I'm neutral on it. Sickly and abused people still have kids all the time, and as this is a game instead of reality we have a lot more leeway to handwave logic to some extent when gameplay is at stake. Personally I finished collecting NDs years ago, but I remember how aggravating it was at the time to have to trade so much for what was essentially a glorified scroll trophy with no chance of having any further use down the line. Giving NDs a chance to breed (preferably a rare one) would alleviate that to one extent. I'm not really fond of the purebreeding only or super high rejection rate + no purples allowed ideas, though. All that being said, I'm so used to them being unbreedable that I don't particularly care if that changes.

 

Definitely agree with your point regarding them being glorified scroll trophies (not to say that I don't love and want as many of them as possible regardless haha), the same goes for most other unbreedables as well. I feel like the discussion now is more so what function can these dragons be given as to not render them purely cosmetic after obtaining them, while still maintaining their unbreedable nature (as for many it makes complete sense that they can't breed, and there's certainly at least some justification as to the others' inability to). It really just boils down to me wanting some way to interact with my unbreedables!

[angelicdragonpuppy]

You know...

 

What if NDs had a "harass" BSA that had a high chance of killing a hatchling but, if successful, turned it into an ND? The odds would be a tad higher than natural ND creation and would save you the time of waiting a whole week for an egg's timer to run down.

 

Yes, the idea of an ND abusing a hatchling into a bitter, broken shadow of its former self is pretty awful... but isn't that what we do with ND creation to begin with?

 

(And in case anyone asks, yes, hatchies CAN become NDs, it's just a lot less common than the egg method)

[LibbyLishly]

1 hour ago, Jazeki said:

We can't even talk about how to get them on the forum. 

Sorry to take us on a quick rabbit trail, but why is this, anyway? This seems like such a nonsensical rule and always has to me.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

24 minutes ago, LibbyLishly said:

Sorry to take us on a quick rabbit trail, but why is this, anyway? This seems like such a nonsensical rule and always has to me.

 

The reason given was that discussing how to make them had led to users encouraging each other to multiscroll. I don't see why such posts couldn't have been moderated as rule breaking like any other rule (I mean, people could advocate multiscrolling for literally anything, why ban an entire topic rather than punish the rulebreakers?). It's been a while, but I think I asked for discussion to be allowed again and the suggestion was closed... maybe now's the time for another go?

[LibbyLishly]

1 hour ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

The reason given was that discussing how to make them had led to users encouraging each other to multiscroll. I don't see why such posts couldn't have been moderated as rule breaking like any other rule (I mean, people could advocate multiscrolling for literally anything, why ban an entire topic rather than punish the rulebreakers?). It's been a while, but I think I asked for discussion to be allowed again and the suggestion was closed... maybe now's the time for another go?

Oh gosh, I just did a search, and you did suggest that back in 2013, and I have the first comment, enthusiastically supporting it.

Here

[VixenDra]

People with plenty of various disabilities, genetic problems and mental illnesses or traumas do reproduce. You're way more likely to find a person like that who wants to have a baby against everything because strong parental instinct than who doesn't, we humans don't breed nor select based on 'best genes contributor'. As for animals, they inctinctively try to pass their own genes(at the very least by heping their closest relatives if they themselves stand no chance), another thing is they are successful in getting allowed to breed either by a potential mate or the rivals and mental traumas don't seem to have influence there, the instinct to pass the genes is stronger in non-sapient beings, also reproduction in the animal kingdom very rarely has anthing to do with forming some kind of a social bond.

Also as for parenting, just look at what happens to our eggs: we stal them, they have no parents to take care of them, its's we who do and the main reason why, lorewise, we can't take more than X growing eggs/dragons under our care, so YES WE would take care of them, not the ND parents. And also lore is known to be changeable, if purples could be female-only an dnow nt NDs coudl be thought sterile and lately discovered to just rarely get successful +their bodies are fairly stabilised (not that even women with very severe diseases or deformities can still give birth and even survive, have this woman for example:   but neither her dangerously tiny body(low chance of pregnancy survival) nor risky genetic poll (that actually got passed to at least 2 of the 3 children) didn't stop her and her husband; and look how many patologic families there are (and how most of them have quite a number of children) out there to see for the mantal trauma etc. part; also in case of animals a lioness would have her cubs killed if a new male takes over, and she won't refuse to reproduce afterwards with the "murderer of her children" - gave both sapient and non-sapient minds just in case). So I don't see any valid/strong lore-related reason that would actually shut this idea down.

 

I believe lorewise NDxND would be the only justified pairing though... because they are weak, they aren't attractive as potential mates to the healthy dragons. They wouldn't be allowed by other breeds to mate, because that's how animals work (and sorry, but DC dragons aren't that sapient, those that mention breeding in their descriptions have it work like animal breeding does - best quality of trait or action X = better chances of mating, and this is how non-sapient animals pick mates, they wpuld definitely reject an ND) - so the only mating partner a ND would have any chance to not get rejected by is the other rejected one - another ND. And because passing one's own genes is one of the main instincts and aims of life, I don't see why NDs would be any different. They are basically sick dragons, deformed by their sickness. Could be they also would have the sickness pass onto the offspring upon the very production of the gametes.

Also the offspring could have very high death ratio compared to regular dragons: very easly get sick and very easly die of it.

 

I don't like the idea of refusal though. NDs are way too rare and too much sought after, refusals would only increase the demand of the user-made NDs due to the mate replacement needs. And the demand is extremelly high without this. Extremely rare Egg productions should do enough to limit them. They could have similar breeding ratios to Golds just a bit(or more) longer breeding cooldown (Golds are so close to sterile there's no need to make anything less fertile than Golds, this pair was bred (mostly with Fertility) for nearly 2 years nearly every week: https://dragcave.net/progeny/OPSSc speaks for itself, add a longer cooldown and you get only a few eggs a year at best - even less if Fertility didn't work).

NDs have so microscopic potential that I hardly remembered they existed ever since I got my 5... Same with Cheeses an Papers, I got them, I forgot they existed, not to mention Dinos (I remembered only because I tried to rmenind myself sth for this very moment, other than that I almost completely forgot they exist, same with NDs). Not the most rewarding, considering their rarity, effort needed to make or trade for and how low % of players can successfully make them. I bet bred ones would never reach close to the value of a CB user-made ND. Same is true for nearly all of the other bred vs CB cases, so I woudn't be too afraid of trading value loss. If there's a more common or easly obtainable way to get X dragon, a CB of it willl always be worth more than anyhow more easly made.

And NDs could use beng of some more use than just 'sth I can't make myself and have to trade an arm and a leg or win to get, when I get 1-7 of it I forget it exists' kind of thing... or "my money-making machine" to those who can make them.

I've jsut read here that some people say they're kinda trophies... well, maybe to those who MADE theirs(or any), but if you traded for yours (well, I did too) then what kind of trophy is that? it's not like you won it, it's more like you bought it from a winner, and it's kinda different. I don't, can't and won't threat mine as a trophy ever, I didn't achieve it(because I couldn't), I just bought it. It's okay I bought it but it's NOT a trophy-like thingie then.

 

But any kind of normalisation suggestion for any of the breaking-out breed tends to get so highly disapproved here (but ofc if a normalisation update ever happens everyone's suddenly happy and all the opposers suddenly vanish and change their mind seing the normalisation didn't bring the disaster they feared or actually only benefited everyone or just had no personal influence on them actually, now there's so many againsts but if this was implemented I bet noone would complain afterwards...).

[Yubelchen]

I would support it with one condition:

After successful breeding, the ND or NDs involved are unable to be breed EVER again.

The attemps itself would be too energy draining for them (longer waiting time to breed again is fitting) and a success (at least for a female) would require MUCH more than that, so refuse to breed ever again or simply lose this ability at all would fit in the picture.

 

Remember: NDs are chronically ill, they will never be healthy, they also might live much shorter than any other dragon (which would still be able to live like thousand of years) and giving birth might also kill them. There also is a large chance they might destroy the egg they made, like an elephant mother could kill its newborn child cause it connects the pain during birth with the young, thinking it caused them and might do it again if not stopped. (as seen in videos of many Zoos)

[Sazandora]

And if you people really want the NDs to do something other than just sit there and look pretty, why does it have to be that they become breedable?

[VixenDra]

21 minutes ago, Yubelchen said:

I would support it with one condition:

After successful breeding, the ND or NDs involved are unable to be breed EVER again.

The attemps itself would be too energy draining for them (longer waiting time to breed again is fitting) and a success (at least for a female) would require MUCH more than that, so refuse to breed ever again or simply lose this ability at all would fit in the picture.

 

Remember: NDs are chronically ill, they will never be healthy, they also might live much shorter than any other dragon (which would still be able to live like thousand of years) and giving birth might also kill them. There also is a large chance they might destroy the egg they made, like an elephant mother could kill its newborn child cause it connects the pain during birth with the young, thinking it caused them and might do it again if not stopped. (as seen in videos of many Zoos)

 

Against this condition. I'd rather them stay unbreedable at all then.

Also against the kinda sexist approach - DC dragons always had males and females have same cooldowns etc. NDs should be no exception.

I disagree with the reasoning. The woman whose photo I linked gave birth to 3 children and survived DESPITE her body was expected to not make it through the first pregnancy ("was warned against becoming pregnant, because a baby could grow too big and crush her lungs and heart"). AND note she's a human which means each of her 3 pregnancies took 7-9 months AND that she's not oviparious - her babies were draining from her body. NDs have the ease in the form of very short 'pregnancy' and no direct connection to the developing offspring once the egg is fertilised. If she could make it. NDs would make it too.

I can only see a possibility of the ND to become infertile for a year after successfully laying an egg to recover (note it makes about 53 times longer than average dragon!).

 

12 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

And if you people really want the NDs to do something other than just sit there and look pretty, why does it have to be that they become breedable?

Um, because DC is technically 99% about breeding?

Edited December 2, 2017 by VixenDra

[Sazandora]

7 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

Um, because DC is technically 99% about breeding?

Yes, and...?

 

There's always other options than making everything breedable, since the game isn't 100% about breeding and making lineages. What, should all the other unbreedables be made breedable all of a sudden, just because the game is "about breeding"?

[Done]

9 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

And if you people really want the NDs to do something other than just sit there and look pretty, why does it have to be that they become breedable?

 

I've actually mentioned this multiple times in my past replies. I feel like @angelicdragonpuppy's BSA suggestion is definitely on the right track, however in my eyes it resembles Bite too closely currently (just affecting hatchlings instead of eggs, and potentially transforming the target into an ND versus a Vampire Dragon).

[Sazandora]

Yeah, I'd much rather have some other thing to do with NDs instead of randomly making them breedable. I mean, I don't even have NDs of my own, and I'd still rather keep them unbreedable. NDs are one of my favorite dragons in the entire game.

inb4 somebody pulls out the "you're just jealous, that's why you're so against making NDs breedable!"-card...

Edited December 2, 2017 by Sazandora

[Fuzzbucket]

7 hours ago, VixenDra said:

 

Against this condition. I'd rather them stay unbreedable at all then.

Also against the kinda sexist approach - DC dragons always had males and females have same cooldowns etc. NDs should be no exception.

I disagree with the reasoning. The woman whose photo I linked gave birth to 3 children and survived DESPITE her body was expected to not make it through the first pregnancy ("was warned against becoming pregnant, because a baby could grow too big and crush her lungs and heart"). AND note she's a human which means each of her 3 pregnancies took 7-9 months AND that she's not oviparious - her babies were draining from her body. NDs have the ease in the form of very short 'pregnancy' and no direct connection to the developing offspring once the egg is fertilised. If she could make it. NDs would make it too.

I can only see a possibility of the ND to become infertile for a year after successfully laying an egg to recover (note it makes about 53 times longer than average dragon!).

 

Um, because DC is technically 99% about breeding?

 

NO.. 100% is about collecting. A LOT of players never breed anything at all.

 

7 hours ago, Sazandora said:

And if you people really want the NDs to do something other than just sit there and look pretty, why does it have to be that they become breedable?

 

7 hours ago, Sazandora said:

Yeah, I'd much rather have some other thing to do with NDs instead of randomly making them breedable. I mean, I don't even have NDs of my own, and I'd still rather keep them unbreedable. NDs are one of my favorite dragons in the entire game..

 

I totally agree here. I do have NDs of my own and I still agree with myself

[Moonlight_Eevee]

3 hours ago, fuzzbucket said:

 

NO.. 100% is about collecting. A LOT of players never breed anything at all.

^ this right here. I have a lot of code dragons that I collect and haven't bred yet

[Jazeki]

I reaaaally dislike the logic that because some humans are able to survive pregnancy despite genetic anomalies that threaten healthy childbirth,  it means that we can apply the logic to DC. To note, 7 or 8 months is not a normal length of pregnancy and early delivery meant that there was probably a complication that either the baby or the mother was suffering or needed to be avoided. Just because someone survives a pregnancy doesn't mean that their quality of life or that of the child hasn't declined because of it. 

 

I also think that giving a snippet of a story fails to do anything to support WHY neglected dragons should be breedable in the first place.

 

I also agree that breeding is not a main focus of DC play for lots of people.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Jazeki

[HeatherMarie]

15 hours ago, Jazeki said:

I reaaaally dislike the logic that because some humans are able to survive pregnancy despite genetic anomalies that threaten healthy childbirth,  it means that we can apply the logic to DC. To note, 7 or 8 months is not a normal length of pregnancy and early delivery meant that there was probably a complication that either the baby or the mother was suffering or needed to be avoided. Just because someone survives a pregnancy doesn't mean that their quality of life or that of the child hasn't declined because of it. 

 

I also think that giving a snippet of a story fails to do anything to support WHY neglected dragons should be breedable in the first place.

 

I also agree that breeding is not a main focus of DC play for lots of people.

 

All of this. Totally agree with all of this.

 

Okay, so humans can and do give birth even when their bodies may not handle it.... So what? DC is not about humans. NDs are not humans, not in any sense of the word, not even a little bit. I mean, that's like saying that a dinosaur could do some-such, so a human obviously can too! It makes no sense at all. They are simply not comparable, and I don't think "humans can do this" is *ever* a good reason for a *dragon* to be able to do it.

 

Breeding is totally not the main focus of DC, never has been. To *some* users it is, certainly, of course there are users who mainly stick around because of breeding and lineages and etc. But that's not the main focus of DC. DC is, at it's core, a collecting site. Everything else, from breeding to naming to describing, is completely optional and many people don't do those things at all. But everyone who plays this game collects, that is the core of the game.

 

If TJ (and whoever wrote the ND's encyclopedia entry?) agrees that lore should be changed, then okay whatever. But I personally don't agree that already-established lore for NDs should be changed simply because some people don't see worth in them as unbreedables. As someone else said, if this becomes a thing, does that mean that all other unbreedables should suddenly be breedable too? If NDs being unbreedable is such a horrible thing, where are the suggestions for Dinos to breed? And chickens? And papers, and cheeses? I simply don't hold the view that NDs are somehow less desirable because they can't breed.

[Done]

2 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

 

All of this. Totally agree with all of this.

 

Okay, so humans can and do give birth even when their bodies may not handle it.... So what? DC is not about humans. NDs are not humans, not in any sense of the word, not even a little bit. I mean, that's like saying that a dinosaur could do some-such, so a human obviously can too! It makes no sense at all. They are simply not comparable, and I don't think "humans can do this" is *ever* a good reason for a *dragon* to be able to do it.

 

I think both of you are missing the point of @VixenDra's example, I saw it more as a story he shared to help illustrate that we live in a world full of exceptions and anomalies... That's just how it is. Furthermore, DC is a game about dragons, which are fictional creatures. You can't really say anything is certain regarding them because they simply don't exist, that's why I feel the argument "they wouldn't be able to breed/why would they be able to breed?/etcetera" a little strange, as one could just as easily ask, "why not?" As @angelicdragonpuppy said earlier, lore can and has been changed before, which is the only thing really stopping NDs from being able to breed currently. Everything else is just speculation and assumption (including what I'm saying).

 

Beyond all that though, as I've mentioned previously, I too am beginning to think that there may be a better way of making it so that you can interact with NDs (and other unbreedables for that matter) other than just simply making them breedable. But I find it strange how people talk with such certainty regarding made-up creatures as to what they are and aren't capable of.

[HeatherMarie]

Well of course we don't know for certain what dragons can and can't do, but there are things we can infer based on what we do know.... Like what has already been established in-game, which is that their bodies can't handle it. An argument about humans being able to do something doesn't fit here because dragons, while fictional, share very very little with humans at all.... A better argument would be examples of reptiles breeding despite illness/weakness, since dragons are usually considered reptiles. And while the world is indeed full of exceptions and abnormalities and miracles and etc etc, I don't see that as a reason to make breeding available for all NDs... An exception or one-in-a-million occurrence shouldn't be the basis for saying that *all* of a breed would have that ability, imo. I think that, in order to make it realistic, ND breeding would have to have an extremely low chance of success, low enough that it would most likely be more of a frustration then a wanted thing (we already have plenty of frustration over breeding Golds, for example, and they are healthy dragons who's body can easily cope with it!).

 

I'm not at all against *some* sort of thing added to NDs, and unbreedables in general, to make them more appealing to people who don't find them worthwhile as they are. Back when we had the BSA sub-forum there were multiple ideas about BSAs for cheeses and papers, both practical and silly, that could've made them more popular and wanted, and some of those were things I'd support.

[Done]

6 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

Well of course we don't know for certain what dragons can and can't do, but there are things we can infer based on what we do know.... Like what has already been established in-game, which is that their bodies can't handle it. An argument about humans being able to do something doesn't fit here because dragons, while fictional, share very very little with humans at all.... A better argument would be examples of reptiles breeding despite illness/weakness, since dragons are usually considered reptiles. And while the world is indeed full of exceptions and abnormalities and miracles and etc etc, I don't see that as a reason to make breeding available for all NDs... An exception or one-in-a-million occurrence shouldn't be the basis for saying that *all* of a breed would have that ability, imo. I think that, in order to make it realistic, ND breeding would have to have an extremely low chance of success, low enough that it would most likely be more of a frustration then a wanted thing (we already have plenty of frustration over breeding Golds, for example, and they are healthy dragons who's body can easily cope with it!).

 

I'm not at all against *some* sort of thing added to NDs, and unbreedables in general, to make them more appealing to people who don't find them worthwhile as they are. Back when we had the BSA sub-forum there were multiple ideas about BSAs for cheeses and papers, both practical and silly, that could've made them more popular and wanted, and some of those were things I'd support.

 

Like I said in the original post and my previous reply, I'm fully aware that as is the lore very clearly doesn't support NDs being able to breed and that it would need to be altered slightly to accommodate the change (which, as angelicdragonpuppy said, has been done before). As for the risk of it being a mostly frustrating experience for players, I agree with you there. My counter argument would be that since DC is a game, we have a little more leeway with how often said "miracles" (that being two NDs successfully breeding and producing an offspring) would occur... But I can understand why people might be opposed to that.

[Draconiusultamius]

I wouldn't mind being able to breed my ND's, but what kinda dragon would that produce?  An automatic ND seems like an unlikely thing as neither parents technically had any genetics in them which allow for the production of an ND egg.  Also, NDs themselves should be made, NOT bred imo.  ND x ND would work, but I think they should produce whatever offspring they were supposed to produce if they weren't neglected.  I see ND as a condition, not an actual breed, since that's the only explanation for them.  I guess its more similar to something like an amputee or burn victim than anything, the result is the same, no matter the species (I'm talking about mammals here).  If a person, a cat, and a dog are all in a car accident and all have to have one of their limbs amputated, they are all amputees.  They're still different species, but they're all missing a limb.  If the human was then married to another amputee and they decided to have children they wouldn't produce a child who was born an amputee (unless there was an error in the production of said child, but let's pretend those don't exist and that the child was a perfect clone of one parent).  Same with an ND, it's not really a species, but a thing that was created and changed appearance-wise from what it was originally.  

 

Then again, DC isn't exactly a scientifically 100% perfect place that follows the rules of genetics, otherwise some hybrids would also be sterile.

[Jazeki]

Personally, I don't care if ND's become breedable. My world wouldn't crumble and I wouldn't stop playing the game. And it's not that I missed the reasoning behind posting about human anomalies and miracles and wanting to/being able to produce offspring despite all odds. I just don't like that logic for why a dragon should be able to suddenly become breedable. 

 

I know that there is a cockatrice concept and that there have been suggestions for roosters and unbreedable BSA options. I know that lore can be changed as TJ/neglected creators see fit.

 

What I don't see is a strong reason as to why neglected dragons should be breedable to make them more interesting. 

[Done]

7 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

Personally, I don't care if ND's become breedable. My world wouldn't crumble and I wouldn't stop playing the game. And it's not that I missed the reasoning behind posting about human anomalies and miracles and wanting to/being able to produce offspring despite all odds. I just don't like that logic for why a dragon should be able to suddenly become breedable. 

 

I know that there is a cockatrice concept and that there have been suggestions for roosters and unbreedable BSA options. I know that lore can be changed as TJ/neglected creators see fit.

 

What I don't see is a strong reason as to why neglected dragons should be breedable to make them more interesting. 

 

For sure, that response was mostly directed at Marie19R anyway. Also you kind of answered your own question, NDs should be made breedable (or better yet, given some other sort of BSA or means by which to interact with them) to make them more interesting. As is they just sit around and do nothing, and although I and most other people I think are fine with that (kind of like what you said, I'm not going to quit DC just because NDs are unbreedable), I still feel it would be better to give them some interactive purpose/use/feature, no matter how minor. That's the point of suggestions after all, to share ideas that you think would improve the game, even if only very minimally.

[Draconiusultamius]

To be fair, most dragons sit around and do nothing.  Which is why I'm fed up with grabbing CB xenos.  I don't need another at the moment, I need dragons I don't have and stuff for lineages!

[TCA]

On 12/1/2017 at 6:57 PM, VixenDra said:

They wouldn't be allowed by other breeds to mate, because that's how animals work (and sorry, but DC dragons aren't that sapient, those that mention breeding in their descriptions have it work like animal breeding does - best quality of trait or action X = better chances of mating, and this is how non-sapient animals pick mates, they wpuld definitely reject an ND)