ANSWERED:Neglected Dragon Breeding

[Moltres]

Because breeding always means performing in a sexual way. Right. Because that's how flowers pollinate. They intertwine their bodies and go at it for a few hours (or minutes).

 

Sarcasm aside...

 

I'm actually NOT against this idea, like, at all. Considering how long I've tried for an ND and failed each time, because, even though I use that handy "what time will this egg die" crap, I never get there in time and they DIE before I can put them in hatcheries....(and yes, I set timers. Multiple, in fact.

 

How many people in the world thought they were sterile, and therefor, incapable of having children, but did? The numbers may still be small, in comparison, but - at the same time - many.

 

There would be ways for males to fertilize an egg, perhaps, without doing the physical sexual act with the female. It could happen.

 

The only downside is, I see this being far more difficult for the female since she would have to birth the egg (or maybe live offspring. Not against live births for dragons). That, in and of itself, may make this impossible.

 

Perhaps add that, not only is there a high chance of failure for a breeding result, perhaps add in that the female has a chance of dying (and cannot be turned into a zombie...) if the breeding is successful.

 

Perfectly healthy people have had complications during giving birth, and died. There have been people with major health issues deliver perfectly healthy children. I have personally known a woman with a rather frail body..give birth to a health baby. She did survive as well, but was in the hospital for a very long time. It is possible.

Edited December 4, 2017 by PhoenixEterna

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Satospes said:

 

In response to your other reply, I've actually said a couple times in this thread that I wouldn't mind most of the unbreedables getting BSAs of some sort (I don't think the Leetle Tree needs one though, for example), I'm certainly not singling out NDs. Also I don't really get this "some people are happy with it as is" argument, are you directly opposed to NDs having a BSA? I'm not talking about breeding anymore, I understand now that most people are pretty strongly against that and I even feel some good arguments have been raised as to why that wouldn't be a good idea. But otherwise, even if you are happy with NDs as is, would you not at least think, "huh, neat," if your NDs had some practical use (even if it were only a rather minor one)? I'm not expecting everyone to be crying with joy at the thought of NDs having a BSA or whatever, far from it... But I find it hard to believe that anyone would be directly opposed to the idea, assuming the BSA was useful and balanced. The result is some people are made happier and others can continue on not caring, there's no real downside there in my eyes.

 

I already said in an earlier post that I'm not against NDs having a BSA if it has nothing to do with breeding. However, I can't say that I am *in support* of a BSA for them, since no specific BSA has yet been mentioned in this thread. BSAs should be useful and balanced, but also make sense for the breed. If there is a BSA you are thinking of that fits those conditions then yeah I'd probably support it. But I can't say for sure, since this thread has been mostly talking about breeding, and no actual specific BSAs have been discussed.

 

@PhoenixEterna Humans having children against all odds has already been talked about in this thread, and it has been pointed out that that's not really a good argument for NDs being able to breed because NDs are *not* humans. At all. Completely biologically different. This is a game about fictional dragons, not about humans. I'm sure other animals probably give birth against all odds as well, but using humans specifically an an example here just doesn't make much sense.

[Done]

2 hours ago, LibbyLishly said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a vampire-style BSA (as was mentioned for zombies) that helped create more NDs. I'm really not a fan of them breeding, but a "Harass" or "Infect" BSA that increased the chances of an experiment egg turning wouldn't be a bad thing, I think. I hope. Always gotta worry about those doggone ratios.

 

Can you explain what these ratios are to me? I still have no clue what people mean by that...

[Shadowdrake]

Another problem with the "humans can do this in rare and special circumstances" argument is that regardless of failure rate, letting NDs breed would imply they can breed normally, not just in "special circumstances".

Also, having a chance for your super-rare-CB-dragon die just for a 2nd-gen of a dragon you already had before it died sounds like a terrible idea. Useless for lineages, for spreading NDs, for collection and hoarding, etc.

 

The ratios argument against ND breeding isn't a good one either, though. No one would actually be able to tell if one egg or another was supposed to turn into an ND but failed because there's too many "bred" ones. And besides, if new release dragons have taught me anything it's that CB ratios and breeding ratios take forever to match up anyway.

 

I'm one of the people who usually only collect things and barely breed anything rare, too. For the longest time I never bothered breeding what CB metals I had, and most of the rarer dragons on my scroll (CB gaia and etc) I still don't bother to ever breed. I only gathered them for scroll completion, and I expect there's plenty of others who do the same.

 

I have no opinion on whether NDs should be able to create more of their own or not.

 

@Satospes Ratios are how Dragon Cave balances egg generating. This page has a short summary of it, but basically common dragons will stay or become more common if people gather less of them, and rare dragons stay or get rarer if people collect more of them, and vice versa. New release dragons like khusas will almost always breed eggs of their breed, and older dragons like whites and balloons are harder to get eggs from when breeding or in cave catching because there are so many of them already.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Shadowdrake

[Fuzzbucket]

8 hours ago, Marie19R said:

But the thing is, NDs only "pay off a lot less" if you are really into breeding, or breeding in order to trade. DC is a collecting game, yes. So many people who see DC as a collecting game would see getting a ND as an end-game, not getting it in order to make pretty lineages. I don't have over 1,000 Royal Blues because I want to breed them, I have them because they are pretty, even though they do nothing but sit on my scroll. I totally get that there is a large community of users who are in it for the breeding, who wouldn't stick around if it weren't for lineages and breeding and such, but that's just one aspect of the game, it's not the entire game. And if "many people play DC to collect dragons", there is no reason to assume that those same people who play specifically to *collect* would want NDs less because they can't *breed*.

 

This, too. I have loads of Arias now. (The least I could do, after all those years screaming for their return )  But I don't expect I will breed them all. And I collect cheeses (up to a point) because I like naming them. Likewise chickens - THOSE I collect because my SO likes naming them, believe it or not. THAT is something that's fun to do for unbreedables. Naming, describing...

 

4 hours ago, PhoenixEterna said:

Perhaps add that, not only is there a high chance of failure for a breeding result, perhaps add in that the female has a chance of dying (and cannot be turned into a zombie...) if the breeding is successful.

 

Perfectly healthy people have had complications during giving birth, and died. There have been people with major health issues deliver perfectly healthy children. I have personally known a woman with a rather frail body..give birth to a health baby. She did survive as well, but was in the hospital for a very long time. It is possible.

 

You know - I'd almost support breeding NDs. As long as it would mean the females die when the egg is born because - well, they can't hack it. I know many humans survive there things against all odds - though often that is because of medical intervention, which our dergs don't have - but dergs Are.Not.Human. Also, even if they were to behave exactly like humans, they don't have obstetricians and special care egg units.

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@fuzzbucket yes, they have something better--white dragons and others with healing magic

 

I don't think your suggestion was super serious, but I'd be against breeding causing death. Imagine putting on the breed filter, seeing your ND there, excitedly clicking through without reading any warning text because for every other of your thousand dragons it says the same old thing... then boom, dead dragon. Not good.

[Fuzzbucket]

46 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

@fuzzbucket yes, they have something better--white dragons and others with healing magic

 

I don't think your suggestion was super serious, but I'd be against breeding causing death. Imagine putting on the breed filter, seeing your ND there, excitedly clicking through without reading any warning text because for every other of your thousand dragons it says the same old thing... then boom, dead dragon. Not good.

 

No I wasn't entirely serious. But I really don't like the breeding idea.

 

And whites only ward eggs and by extension hatchies. Not mommies and daddies ! Grown-ups are on their own.

[olympe]

18 hours ago, Satospes said:

 

In response to your other reply, I've actually said a couple times in this thread that I wouldn't mind most of the unbreedables getting BSAs of some sort (I don't think the Leetle Tree needs one though, for example), I'm certainly not singling out NDs. Also I don't really get this "some people are happy with it as is" argument, are you directly opposed to NDs having a BSA? I'm not talking about breeding anymore, I understand now that most people are pretty strongly against that and I even feel some good arguments have been raised as to why that wouldn't be a good idea. But otherwise, even if you are happy with NDs as is, would you not at least think, "huh, neat," if your NDs had some practical use (even if it were only a rather minor one)? I'm not expecting everyone to be crying with joy at the thought of NDs having a BSA or whatever, far from it... But I find it hard to believe that anyone would be directly opposed to the idea, assuming the BSA was useful and balanced. The result is some people are made happier and others can continue on not caring, there's no real downside there in my eyes.

Actually, there's quite a bit of a downside, if you think it through.

1. NDs are the only method for people with bad internet/computers/reflexes/eyesight/whatever to trade for things they wouldn't otherwise be able to trade for, much less catch for themselves. Unless, of course, you count the raffle as a method. (Most of us are still waiting to win, btw.) A way to "breed" NDs would change this mechanic quite drastically.
2. Ratios. I'm pretty sure that ratios play a role even with NDs. So, the more NDs we can "breed", the fewer we can actually make.

3. Making NDs is an even playing field for everyone right now. Making them breedable (or giving them a BSA or whatever) will only serve to help those players in the have, while making things for less fortunate or newer players harder. (See point #2 about ratios.)

All of this makes me actually want to oppose any kind of procreating ability for Nedglected Dragons.

 

*Please note that I mean "breeding" in the widest sense possible, including the possibility of a BSA to procreate (like Bite) or enhance the chances of turning an egg.

Edited December 4, 2017 by olympe

[HeatherMarie]

8 hours ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

@fuzzbucket yes, they have something better--white dragons and others with healing magic

 

I don't think your suggestion was super serious, but I'd be against breeding causing death. Imagine putting on the breed filter, seeing your ND there, excitedly clicking through without reading any warning text because for every other of your thousand dragons it says the same old thing... then boom, dead dragon. Not good.

 

I don't think people not reading warnings should be an excuse not to do something. I'm not saying I support ND breeding if the female dies, but if a user doesn't read a clear warning, that's not exactly the site's fault. Earthquake was implemented, after all, even though it's possible people won't read the warning that the eggs may die. Same with Bite. Users need to take responsibility for their actions, good suggestions shouldn't be turned down just because a user might not play responsibly.

 

Again I'm not saying I support breeding if the female dies, but it definitely would be more realistic that way.

 

I really like @olympe's points, there are definitely downsides to any sort of "different way" of making NDs and those should be taken into consideration.

[Jazeki]

42 minutes ago, olympe said:

Actually, there's quite a bit of a downside, if you think it through.

 

1. Making NDs is an even playing field for everyone right now. Making them breedable (or giving them a BSA or whatever) will only serve to help those players in the have, while making things for less fortunate or newer players harder. (See point #2 about ratios.)

 

This is especially important to consider. Right now, this suggestion only benefits those who have neglecteds and while it could help those without (through people gifting neglecteds or whatever they choose to do), it's very limited in terms of how it enhances game play. If neglecteds were common, that would be a different story.  Think back to all of the people who were disappointed by being unable to take part in the avatar breeding because they didn't have a GON when those came out. 

 

Edit: Adding any kind of BSA still changes the playing field because now you have a dragon that does something extra. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Jazeki

[Done]

41 minutes ago, olympe said:

Actually, there's quite a bit of a downside, if you think it through.

 

1. NDs are the only method for people with bad internet/computers/reflexes/eyesight/whatever to trade for things they wouldn't otherwise be able to trade for, much less catch for themselves. Unless, of course, you count the raffle as a method. (Most of us are still waiting to win, btw.) A way to "breed" NDs would change this mechanic quite drastically.
2. NDs are the only method for people with bad internet/computers/reflexes/eyesight/whatever to trade for things they wouldn't otherwise be able to trade for, much less catch for themselves. Unless, of course, you count the raffle as a method. (Most of us are still waiting to win, btw.) A way to "breed" NDs would change this mechanic quite drastically.

    

3. Ratios. I'm pretty sure that ratios play a role even with NDs. So, the more NDs we can "breed", the fewer we can actually make.

    

4. Making NDs is an even playing field for everyone right now. Making them breedable (or giving them a BSA or whatever) will only serve to help those players in the have, while making things for less fortunate or newer players harder. (See point #2 about ratios.)

    

 

All of this makes me actually want to oppose any kind of procreating ability for Nedglected Dragons.

 

*Please note that I mean "breeding" in the widest sense possible, including the possibility of a BSA to procreate (like Bite) or enhance the chances of turning an egg.

 

I actually discussed what kind of BSA I was talking about earlier in this thread, I'm completely past anything related to creating NDs beyond the current method. Here's the quote, hopefully it'll help clarify what I mean:

 

On 12/3/2017 at 3:50 PM, Satospes said:

As for this point, I actually agree somewhat with this. Perhaps if NDs were given a BSA (not even considering breeding at this point) it wouldn't serve the purpose of creating more NDs, but would serve some other practical purpose, like Red Dragons incubating eggs. Since NDs are so rare I feel like the BSA couldn't be too powerful, since there are many players who don't have a ND or just aren't interested in putting in the time/effort it takes to create or trade for one, but it should still useful.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Satospes

[Shadowdrake]

44 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

I don't think people not reading warnings should be an excuse not to do something. I'm not saying I support ND breeding if the female dies, but if a user doesn't read a clear warning, that's not exactly the site's fault. Earthquake was implemented, after all, even though it's possible people won't read the warning that the eggs may die. Same with Bite. Users need to take responsibility for their actions, good suggestions shouldn't be turned down just because a user might not play responsibly.

 

Again I'm not saying I support breeding if the female dies, but it definitely would be more realistic that way.

 

I really like @olympe's points, there are definitely downsides to any sort of "different way" of making NDs and those should be taken into consideration.

The thing about that is this is breeding/using an adult, something which everyone has done before and expects more or less the same results from it. Sure, there are a few dragons which need different requirements or have different results like celestials and holidays, but there has never been an action which had the possibility to kill an adult dragon on accident. It's a very big change from the norm, and a very big downside to an action that already has very little upside.

 

Also, just because the player only uses Whites on eggs doesn't mean anything lore-wise, because the player never sees adult dragons get sick or do anything other than be killed, which whites can't help with. So, y'know, whites could theoretically help with injured adults while we're not watching.

 

 

If anyone wants to suggest NDs get a non-ND-making BSA I suggest you make a new thread for it, as it's not related to this one and has different subjects and problems to discuss.

[olympe]

As a general rule, I don't like the idea of bestowing BSAs on rare dragons unless the BSA only affects the dragon itself or others of its breed. Personally, I think that both Summon BSAs are borderline because of that very thing.

 

But giving a BSA to Neglecteds? HELL NO!

(Unless it's a BSA that does not affect gameplay in any way, shape or form. Like Enrage/Pacify.)

[DuskOfTheStars]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

Actually, there's quite a bit of a downside, if you think it through.

1. NDs are the only method for people with bad internet/computers/reflexes/eyesight/whatever to trade for things they wouldn't otherwise be able to trade for, much less catch for themselves. Unless, of course, you count the raffle as a method. (Most of us are still waiting to win, btw.) A way to "breed" NDs would change this mechanic quite drastically.
2. Ratios. I'm pretty sure that ratios play a role even with NDs. So, the more NDs we can "breed", the fewer we can actually make.

3. Making NDs is an even playing field for everyone right now. Making them breedable (or giving them a BSA or whatever) will only serve to help those players in the have, while making things for less fortunate or newer players harder. (See point #2 about ratios.)

All of this makes me actually want to oppose any kind of procreating ability for Nedglected Dragons.

 

*Please note that I mean "breeding" in the widest sense possible, including the possibility of a BSA to procreate (like Bite) or enhance the chances of turning an egg.

 

As someone with vision loss and an INCREDIBLY restricted field of vision that means I have to look right at something to see it, I wholeheartedly agree eith this.

 

PLEASE no breeding. Might not seem like much to you, but the one reason I have CB Metals (gold, silver) now is NDs. You know what? I'd like to keep gaving that option without gaving to play will I or won't I muss the egg in the limited time I have away from Real Life?

 

So, firmly no support for breeding or a BSA to make more.

[Done]

20 minutes ago, olympe said:

As a general rule, I don't like the idea of bestowing BSAs on rare dragons unless the BSA only affects the dragon itself or others of its breed. Personally, I think that both Summon BSAs are borderline because of that very thing.

 

But giving a BSA to Neglecteds? HELL NO!

(Unless it's a BSA that does not affect gameplay in any way, shape or form. Like Enrage/Pacify.)

 

Why shouldn't players be rewarded with some sort of game-impacting (although not greatly so) BSA for the hard work they put in to get NDs or other unbreedables? Also like you said, NDs are one of the most accessible rares if you're willing to put in the time/dedication it takes to create them.

[LibbyLishly]

17 minutes ago, Satospes said:

 

Why shouldn't players be rewarded with some sort of game-impacting (although not greatly so) BSA for the hard work they put in to get NDs or other unbreedables? Also like you said, NDs are one of the most accessible rares if you're willing to put in the time/dedication it takes to create them.

If it's something fun and meaningless like the Splash BSA, I'm fine with it, but I'm not okay with a rare dragon having a BSA that gives its owner an edge like Incubate or Influence or something else that's kind of necessary.

 

Other peeps have pointed out good reasons against a Bite/Infect BSA, so I no longer would support that either.

 

If you want to put in the work for a trophy, you put in the work for the trophy. If you don't want a useless dragon taking up space, you don't bother. I personally see no reason for this to change and would rather it didn't unless NDs were to become quite common.

Edited December 5, 2017 by LibbyLishly

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, Satospes said:

 

Why shouldn't players be rewarded with some sort of game-impacting (although not greatly so) BSA for the hard work they put in to get NDs or other unbreedables? Also like you said, NDs are one of the most accessible rares if you're willing to put in the time/dedication it takes to create them.

 

I think the reward for the hard work is *getting* the ND. While they may be "easier" to get then other unbreedables because getting one relies on something you can control yourself instead of luck in the biomes, they really aren't all that easy to get for most people unless they do it so often that they just get really really good at it. For those who don't try to Neglect all the time, it can be very difficult indeed to make their first successful Neglected, and the reward for all that work is... The Neglected Dragon. Imo, BSAs that change the game in a significant way should be fairly easily available to all, like the common Pinks or Reds. I have never, ever liked the idea of the "elite", players who have serious advantages over others simply because they have something others aren't able to easily get.

[Fuzzbucket]

AND as Dusk says, if you are looking at the market here (ugh), they are ONE thing players with various physical problems can get to trade, as the getting can be controlled without fast reflexes and really good eyesight.

 

Satospes - you are a fairly new player. Can you not enjoy the game as it stands for a bit without looking to change it in ways that would affect everyone else so much ? Your scroll shows you have no catching issues, so getting rares is clearly not hard for you. It is for many others, and NDs are a more "relaxed" way of getting something special. Making them more common - which is what you are basically asking - would make it that much harder for everyone who wants to get them by - neglecting them. Because ratios. And I am NOT one who is good at getting them; I have traded for one of mine, won another in a raffle and was given the third. I have failed so many times.... but I desperately want to get one the hard way, not just by a single click to breed.

 

Same goes for infecting and biting. I suppose they could have some kind of POISON BSA that kills - but we have lots of ways to kill already.

Edited December 5, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[Tehya Faye]

I rather selfishly don't want Neglecteds to get a game-impacting BSA or the ability to breed because then I'd feel obligated to get one, and I'm about as uncomfortable with the idea having them on my scroll as I am with Zombies. Neither are like Gold Dragons or other similar rares - they aren't really meant to be celebrated. Being rewarded for neglecting your dragons or dabbling in dark magic seems really off for me, even in this game where we're serial dragon-nappers. I think both work well enough as their own reward, for those who wish to have them.  

Edited December 5, 2017 by Tehya Faye

[Ruby Eyes]

I don't think that's a selfish reason, it's a totally valid one. And I agree with the trophy aspect there.

[Done]

9 hours ago, fuzzbucket said:

AND as Dusk says, if you are looking at the market here (ugh), they are ONE thing players with various physical problems can get to trade, as the getting can be controlled without fast reflexes and really good eyesight.

 

Satospes - you are a fairly new player. Can you not enjoy the game as it stands for a bit without looking to change it in ways that would affect everyone else so much ? Your scroll shows you have no catching issues, so getting rares is clearly not hard for you. It is for many others, and NDs are a more "relaxed" way of getting something special. Making them more common - which is what you are basically asking - would make it that much harder for everyone who wants to get them by - neglecting them. Because ratios. And I am NOT one who is good at getting them; I have traded for one of mine, won another in a raffle and was given the third. I have failed so many times.... but I desperately want to get one the hard way, not just by a single click to breed.

 

Same goes for infecting and biting. I suppose they could have some kind of POISON BSA that kills - but we have lots of ways to kill already.

 

I've said this numerous times now... But I'm no longer talking about breeding or BSAs that create NDs. So no, I'm not talking about making NDs more common. Also I'm absolutely enjoying the game as is, this suggestion was never something I saw as needed or required by any means, I just thought it was an interesting idea and decided to see what the community thought of it as well. I'm totally fine if it doesn't fly (which pretty clearly is the case), but I'd appreciate you not trying to somehow make me feel guilty for simply sharing an idea.

 

In response as to why a game-impacting BSA would be a bad idea, I can see where some of you guys are coming from. In particular I hadn't considered @Tehya Faye's point that some people may have zero interest in having NDs currently, and that giving them a valuable BSA would make those people feel forced into getting a dragon that they are uncomfortable having (although to be perfectly honest I find it a little strange to have such moral feelings over pixelated dragons, but that's fully just me). All that's really left is potentially giving them a cosmetic (or whatever) BSA with no real game-impact, which honestly I don't think is too important... As it barely serves to make NDs more interesting or interactive in my eyes. So there isn't much more to talk about at this point!

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Personally I just don't want anything useful attached to anything rare. Getting them is hard enough already; the competition becomes even fiercer if you add something to make them even more desirable. 

[Jazeki]

1 hour ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Personally I just don't want anything useful attached to anything rare. Getting them is hard enough already; the competition becomes even fiercer if you add something to make them even more desirable. 

This. And I dunno. You play long enough, you get attached. It makes sense for people who pay more attention to the lore/RPG aspect. The zombie prompt is also pretty depressing.

 

Really, @Satospes, I'd suggest giving some deep thought to what bsa you would give these and then put down concrete details about it. Back when we had the bsa forum, the bsa had to fit the dragon and it had to go beyond making a breed more interesting/cooler.

 

We can't offer comments on something that isn't anything more than a nebulous idea. 

 

You're also welcome to poke TJ for his input.

[TJ09]

Neglected dragons are, at this point, practically an easter egg. Maybe not a silly one like some of the bother breeds, and not much of a mystery nowadays, but extremely niche nonetheless. As others have pointed out, they're hard to get (and purposefully so), and this makes them rare enough that expanding the breed doesn't provide anything of value to the majority of people who play DC.

 

It also directly changes the breed away from how I envisioned it. The first post acknowledges it, but I don't think the suggested alternative is sufficient. Neglected dragons are subject to sufficient physical trauma that being anything but sterile is difficult to believe.