ANSWERED:bring back cb prizes

[bob_jones]

Unless you got a PsyD at 18 and I'm your patient, you have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain.

I don't have a degree in any field, but I'm pretty positive that I know what a passive-aggressive person looks like by now. You're actively trying to start a fight here and I don't have any patience for that. Can we get back to the topic at hand? If your sole purpose is to fan the flames of drama, I'm not interested, so maybe just state your intentions plainly and I'll stop interacting with you.

[SullenCat]

Then please explain what the heck your post meant because I'll be the third person to say your post was vague and confusing but I definitely got a sarcastic tone from it. If you don't want to explain, that's fine, but please don't drag us off-topic. Prize owners are allowed an opinion - even if you disagree with it.

My point is that pseudo psychology shouldn't be invoked. Talk about dragons, leave Psychology to the experts

 

I am putting an end to this line of discussion. I just asked for you to stay on-topic and this is not on topic. Please, no further replies to this post.

Edited January 15, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Obscure_Trash]

different prizes should be given out each year to preserve rarity might still stand.

While I loved seeing new prize dragons and looked forward to seeing the new ones once it was clear we were getting some variety, I think there was a reason that a third wasn't added and that both were given out in the same raffle. And that's because only giving them out once made them too rare and frustrating, especially considering that users go inactive (and, I hate to say it, multier's took advantage of the raffle events and, judging by burned scrolls and lost/missing cb prizes, did win cb prizes).

 

I think if there was some way in which cb prizes could be steadily earned/won at a reasonable rate (that does keep cbs somewhat rare), then I would love to see some new prize dragons every few years or so, but I wouldn't want to see old prizes completely retired, nor would I want to see a new prize every single year. Some sort of cycling might be okay, but I wouldn't want to see any permanent retirements.

 

(I will admit that there's been quite a few posts, so I didn't go back to your original post to reference it, so apologies for any misunderstandings.)

[Dianacat777]

My definition of scroll completion is currently impossible- that would be, 1 CB (or two if gender differences) of every breed.

Putting everyone on a level playing field will not remove the challenge of the game, it will just make it possible. The problem with your server example is they removed all of the mechanics of the game.

If Prizes are made obtainable you're still going to have to earn it in some way- you won't just be handed a fully grown, matching set.

I think it's analogous to the 'prizes drop in cave as commons' that SullenCat is suggesting. It's basically instant gratification. "I don't want this to be difficult, I just want it."

 

If there are no things in a game that take any effort to obtain, the game has no point. This is a fundament of game design. Thankfully nobody here is debating about whether cb metallics should be thrown all over the place, but I see no reason to make prizes common other than 'I want one.' No, really. The only other reason I've heard for it is 'making them rare will cause drama', but literally everything you can do with prizes is going to cause drama at this point. They could be renamed Drama dragons.

 

As far as level playing fields go, literally anything other than 'prizes stay exactly the way they are' and, I don't know, 'TJ gives a prize to every user whose name starts with an H because nyah nyah I can do whatever I want' is a level playing field. Store included. Even cave drops included, to an extent - there's always going to be different connection speeds and bots, but those are just hazards of the game at this point. They're nothing new. Nothing I would consider dramatic, at this point.

 

~Removed; please see the edit to the post that you quoted~

Edited January 15, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[silver_tiger]

Because it turns out, having absolutely no challenge to a game, having nothing to strive for, being able to immediately get anything you want? Really isn't all that fun or interesting.

 

The problem as I see it here is that different users have different ideas of what constitutes the point, or challenge, of Dragon Cave. To some, it's lineage-building, and these people seem to primarily want prizes to become some degree of common. To some, it's scroll completion and obtaining rare dragons, and those generally want them to stay rare.

I'm both a collector and a breeder. From the collecting standpoint, I suppose that a challege isn't a terrible idea, but like I said the slog to getting the rare dragons is more annoying than fun imo. Besides, we get lots of dragons released every year; perhaps you find the ones you need for your scroll quickly and easily, but I don't think I've comoleted my goals for a single dragon released in 2016. I know I'd save myself a lot of hassle if I lowered my scroll goals, but since my eventual hope is to breed a fifth gen purebred of every dragon on the site, it's already pretty low.

 

I just want CBs on my scroll. That's it. That's all I want. Lots of them. From a collecting standpojnt first and foremost.

 

Also I'm not sure if the game you're comparing really applies. It sounds like they handed over the actual point of the game, and in my personal opinion, DC has always been about making your own fun. Which is probably why we're still arguing about/discussing this, everyone has a different idea of what's fun.

 

Edit: my fingers are dumb

 

Edit again: yes, I do 'just want' Tinsels and Shimmerscales. And why not? This game is about collecting dragons. I want them on my scroll. I fail to see how that makes me unreasonable (not saying anyone accused anyone or me of that, i just couldn't think of a better word to carry across my meaning)

Edited January 15, 2017 by silver_chan

[bob_jones]

~Removed; please see the edit to the post that you quoted~ Edited January 15, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Dianacat777]

I'm both a collector and a breeder. From the collecting standpoint, I suppose that a challege isn't a terrible idea, but like I said the slog to getting the rare dragons is more annoying than fun imo. Besides, we get lots of dragons released every year; perhaps you find the ones you need for your scroll quickly and easily, but I don't think I've comoleted my goals for a single dragon released in 2016. I know I'd save myself a lot of hassle if I lowered my scroll goals, but since my eventual hope is to breed a fifth gen purebred of every dragon on the site, it's already pretty low.

 

I just want CBs on my scroll. That's it. That's all I want. Lots of them. From a collecting standpojnt first and foremost.

 

Also I'm not sure if the game you're collecting really applies. It sounds like they handed over the actual point of the game, and in my personal opinion, DC has always been about making your own fun. Which is probably why we're still arguing about/discussing this, everyone has a different idea of what's fun.

Did you catch the last part of my post? That's the fundamental disagreement. Removing what makes DC tedious for you is removing what makes the game worthwhile for somebody else. This is why there is no solution everyone's going to be happy with - because the 'fun' in make your own fun isn't unanimous. And this, I feel, is why we're talking at each other instead of to each other. I don't think we're going to be able to come to an agreement here. I do respect your viewpoint and understand where it comes from; it's just not mine.

 

And I do feel the analogy applies, at least in the sense of 'when you can get everything you want immediately, there's no more fun to be had." Because there was more to do on the game, sure. People could pvp with their new shiny ultra-powered characters, they could skill (assuming they didn't cheat to get those up), they could do guild events and wars, they could do anything they could do in the original MMO - which was quite a lot. It just ended up not being very fun, because when everyone was equal and everything was easily obtained, nothing was worth doing.

 

Edit again: yes, I do 'just want' Tinsels and Shimmerscales. And why not? This game is about collecting dragons. I want them on my scroll. I fail to see how that makes me unreasonable (not saying anyone accused anyone or me of that, i just couldn't think of a better word to carry across my meaning)

It's not an invalid reason, but I personally don't think it's all that different from prize owners who 'just want' their prizes to remain rare and special. It's self-serving. Understandable, but self-serving.

 

If prizes were obtainable but rare, you would still be able to collect them and complete your scroll goals. You would just have to expend some amount of effort to do so.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Dianacat777

[Dragon_Arbock]

I think it's analogous to the 'prizes drop in cave as commons' that SullenCat is suggesting. It's basically instant gratification. "I don't want this to be difficult, I just want it."

 

If there are no things in a game that take any effort to obtain, the game has no point. This is a fundament of game design. Thankfully nobody here is debating about whether cb metallics should be thrown all over the place, but I see no reason to make prizes common other than 'I want one.' No, really. The only other reason I've heard for it is 'making them rare will cause drama', but literally everything you can do with prizes is going to cause drama at this point. They could be renamed Drama dragons.

 

As far as level playing fields go, literally anything other than 'prizes stay exactly the way they are' and, I don't know, 'TJ gives a prize to every user whose name starts with an H because nyah nyah I can do whatever I want' is a level playing field. Store included. Even cave drops included, to an extent - there's always going to be different connection speeds and bots, but those are just hazards of the game at this point. They're nothing new. Nothing I would consider dramatic, at this point.

Leveling the playing field is giving everyone the same opportunity. A random raffle did not give everyone the same chance at something. It gave a lucky few something without even having to work for it, while the rest had no chance at all.

 

Also, people only said to make them common drops because it doesn't matter how common something was intended to be, demand will make them rare- look at the Blusangs and the Gold Wyverns. They're not rares, but they're a lot harder to get than say Stripes or Blacks at the moment.

Everything cycles in rarity- even with the way things are now eventually everyone who wants a 2nd gen will have one- they will lose value, because their value is based on scarcity, not because they are actual rares.

 

I don't care if they're put in the cave, I don't care if they're given as a participation reward in events, I don't care if they're in a store, just don't do another raffle and create another privileged class of people that are only privileged because they were given something the rest of the users never even had a way to obtain.

[Robot Chimera]

Did you catch the last part of my post? That's the fundamental disagreement. Removing what makes DC tedious for you is removing what makes the game worthwhile for somebody else. This is why there is no solution everyone's going to be happy with - because the 'fun' in make your own fun isn't unanimous. And this, I feel, is why we're talking at each other instead of to each other. I don't think we're going to be able to come to an agreement here. I do respect your viewpoint and understand where it comes from; it's just not mine.

 

And I do feel the analogy applies, at least in the sense of 'when you can get everything you want immediately, there's no more fun to be had." Because there was more to do on the game, sure. People could pvp with their new shiny ultra-powered characters, they could skill (assuming they didn't cheat to get those up), they could do guild events and wars, they could do anything they could do in the original MMO - which was quite a lot. It just ended up not being very fun, because when everyone was equal and everything was easily obtained, nothing was worth doing.

Honestly I agree 100% with this. The fun I have on DC is BOTH from lineages and collecting - yes, I want pretty tinsel checkers, but I want effort to go into making them!

[Dragon_Arbock]

'when you can get everything you want immediately, there's no more fun to be had.

I think you're missing the point. It's not that we can't have everything we want immediately- it's that we can't have them at all. I'm not after 2nd gen Prizes- I want to be able to earn a CB. That is currently not at all possible.

[silver_tiger]

I think you're missing the point. It's not that we can't have everything we want immediately- it's that we can't have them at all. I'm not after 2nd gen Prizes- I want to be able to earn a CB. That is currently not at all possible.

Exactly. I don't care about or tradr for 2nd gens because they're worthless to me. I want the CBs.

[Dianacat777]

Leveling the playing field is giving everyone the same opportunity. A random raffle did not give everyone the same chance at something. It gave a lucky few something without even having to work for it, while the rest had no chance at all.

 

Also, people only said to make them common drops because it doesn't matter how common something was intended to be, demand will make them rare- look at the Blusangs and the Gold Wyverns. They're not rares, but they're a lot harder to get than say Stripes or Blacks at the moment.

Everything cycles in rarity- even with the way things are now eventually everyone who wants a 2nd gen will have one- they will lose value, because their value is based on scarcity, not because they are actual rares.

 

I don't care if they're put in the cave, I don't care if they're given as a participation reward in events, I don't care if they're in a store, just don't do another raffle and create another privileged class of people that are only privileged because they were given something the rest of the users never even had a way to obtain.

Gold wyverns are not difficult to obtain - I see them constantly in Alpine, and they'll linger sometimes - and Blusangs were always rares, to the extent of my knowledge. They stopped dropping very quickly after their initial release. As for your comparisons, blacks are commons that occasionally fluctuate and stripes are uncommons. Not a good comparison.

 

Actually, a random raffle did give everyone the exact same opportunity. Not the exact same payout, but the exact same opportunity. So yes, it was a level playing field. Am I saying it was an optimal solution? Hell no. But other than the decorating contests, everyone had the same chance, or the ability to get the same chance (through grinding the snowball event.)

 

Reading the rest of your post, though, I mostly agree with you - except I'm not opposed to more raffles if they're held way more frequently than the once-a-year deal.

 

And I'm not going to change my mind and I don't think you're going to change yours, so I think that's really all there is to be said on this particular topic.

 

I think you're missing the point. It's not that we can't have everything we want immediately- it's that we can't have them at all. I'm not after 2nd gen Prizes- I want to be able to earn a CB. That is currently not at all possible.

I think you're misrepresenting my argument. I'm not saying prizes should remain unobtainable and I'm not even saying they should remain in raffles. I'm just saying. They should not. Be common. There is, in fact, a middle ground between 'common' and 'unobtainable', and I'm not appreciating having my argument twisted into loops every couple of posts.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Dianacat777

[Robot Chimera]

I think you're missing the point. It's not that we can't have everything we want immediately- it's that we can't have them at all. I'm not after 2nd gen Prizes- I want to be able to earn a CB. That is currently not at all possible.

Currently yes, but "needing a re-release" doesn't mean they need to be turned into uncommons. I'm all for a re-release but not one that's going to devalue them to the point they can't be considered rare.

[SullenCat]

Exactly. I don't care about or tradr for 2nd gens because they're worthless to me. I want the CBs.

Me three

[Dragon_Arbock]

Well, I'm not saying they should be common. Golds and Silvers are obtainable by all- they're still really rare. Even with how bad I am at catching them, at least knowing I potentially could means I do not complain about it. If the Prizes were put on a level of maybe Copper rarity (or copper rarity for Bronze, Silver rarity for the Silvers, and Gold for Gold) I could at least get behind that and call that fair.

I would prefer they not be as hard to get- Golds and Silvers never used to be quite this rare, but they've become more so- maybe start off a little less than Copper Rare then no doubt the ratios would make them scarcer over time.

 

I still don't know that I want them to be in the cave though since they are 'prizes'- a shop or participation award makes a bit more sense to me.

[SullenCat]

Well, I'm not saying they should be common. Golds and Silvers are obtainable by all- they're still really rare. Even with how bad I am at catching them, at least knowing I potentially could means I do not complain about it. If the Prizes were put on a level of maybe Copper rarity (or copper rarity for Bronze, Silver rarity for the Silvers, and Gold for Gold) I could at least get behind that and call that fair.

I would prefer they not be as hard to get- Golds and Silvers never used to be quite this rare, but they've become more so- maybe start off a little less than Copper Rare then no doubt the ratios would make them scarcer over time.

 

I still don't know that I want them to be in the cave though since they are 'prizes'- a shop or participation award makes a bit more sense to me.

Would be convenient to agree with you because I've been able to consistently catch CB metals. But I'm not sure that's the right solution. Mostly because the number of existing CB metals is overwhelmingly higher than the number of Tinsels and Shimmers. But, if we need to start somewhere, a Copper-like rarity is better than nothing. I'm pro-store, pro-holiday-event, pro almost everything but the raffles or preserving the actual maddening situation.

[Bison]

Maybe I'm displaying my Prize Owner Privilege here, but somehow I don't think it's a good idea to get rid of everything special or exclusive just because people who don't win are left out. Or should the site automatically give everyone a free gold dragon just for joining, so they don't feel neglected? The reason rares and prizes are special is because not everyone has one.

I agree with this. Its very telling to see users so determined for CB Prizes to drop as super ultra commons.

 

Are CB/G2 Prizes way too rare right now? Obviously, yes. The trading market is a mess and needs help (though its a mess with everything and near impossible to trade anything "less than" G2 Prizes no matter how common what you want is, in my experience). But making them drop super common is not going to fix that. It'll simply destroy all value and slowly (or quickly) erode their demand. No Prize will have any value and no one will want them anymore. They'll become another annoying blocker. That will create all sorts of drama on its own and another dragon will just rise to "the rarest" again. It more than likely won't get as bad as Prizes did, unless a similar sort of rare dragon is created, but there will always be a "rarest" that goes for crazy amounts that many people won't ever get.

 

I really don't see what's so terrible about having to earn them. I don't care about "monopoly" or "trade value" or anything like that. I seriously would love if I didn't have to worry about scammers or harassment or people using me/making assumptions about me because I won a raffle anymore! G2s are way too valuable and we need more CBs in circulation, absolutely. How it is right now is bad for Prize owners (imo) and non-owners who want G2s. But not everything on DC needs to be handed to every single member on a silver platter. Wanting something doesn't mean it should be given to you for no effort/cost just because you want it realllly bad. That's not how any successful game with trading works.

 

On DC, there's absolutely nothing to work for once you get your Gold trophy and unlock the Encyclopedia. At that point you're done as far as official goals go. From there its simply personal goals fueled entirely by RNG (catch, breed, and/or trade whatever you want, if anything specific). We need real, concrete goals people can work towards and earn. CB Prizes (plus many other dragons that don't matter to this thread) are perfect for this purpose! It doesn't even necessarily have to be the Store. Achievements of some kind could work for this while also helping liven up the game with more optional things to do.

 

Even 1 CB Prize per year from any one of the Holiday events would be better than RNG or dropping in-cave (although I still much prefer an active way to earn them). Or a CB Prize for an entirely new trophy tier, for having like 2k+ dragons or something maybe. Using trophies is its own can of worms because of how essential Gold trophies are to gameplay and how most people already have them. I still think a new system would be better but new trophy tiers could work.

 

Dropping in-cave as rares would be terrible. They'd be sniped by cheaters, multi-scrollers, and people with amazing internet + reflexes. Trade demand would stay high with crazy prices spent on CBs instead of G2s. All this would do is create more drama. Bringing back the single raffle is nothing but intense drama, whining, and harassment/bullying/guilting/scamming of winners. Constant raffles would leave TJ no time to do anything but set them up, run them, email winners, wait for codes to be chosen, and pass out eggs. It took us about two weeks to receive eggs from the last raffle. I don't think any of those are good ideas, personally.

 

 

Obviously, every "you" in this post is general and not referring to any member(s).

[Robot Chimera]

Would be convenient to agree with you because I've been able to consistently catch CB metals. But I'm not sure that's the right solution. Mostly because the number of existing CB metals is overwhelmingly higher than the number of Tinsels and Shimmers. But, if we need to start somewhere, a Copper-like rarity is better than nothing. I'm pro-store, pro-holiday-event, pro almost everything but the raffles or preserving the actual maddening situation.

Congrats, you're one of the lucky few who can actually catch them. Even i've never seen more than 2 CB silvers, 0 CB golds, and i've hunted nonstop since I joined, barring when i'm locked. There is a MASSIVE gap between gold/silver and Copper.

 

I can barely even find people TRADING gold/silver, and when they do, 99% of the time it's wanting 2G prizes, Neglecteds, or 2Gs from spriters alts.

 

 

But not everything on DC needs to be handed to every single member on a silver platter. Wanting something doesn't mean it should be given to you for no effort/cost just because you want it realllly bad. That's not how any successful game with trading works.

 

On DC, there's absolutely nothing to work for once you get your Gold trophy and unlock the Encyclopedia. At that point you're done as far as official goals go. From there its simply personal goals fueled entirely by RNG (catch, breed, and/or trade whatever you want, if anything specific). We need real, concrete goals people can work towards and earn. CB Prizes (plus many other dragons that don't matter to this thread) are perfect for this purpose! It doesn't even necessarily have to be the Store. Achievements of some kind could work for this while also helping liven up the game with more optional things to do.

Agree with you here. I'd like something to do on the side.

 

 

I'm still against CB prizes being the exact same rarity as coppers, and I will never support the store having prizes as long as it continues to be suggested that way. But that's still my opinion.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Robot Chimera

[Dragon_Arbock]

I honestly would even be in favor of a new trophy rank (to make Halloween releases even not odd). I'm not saying I want them in-cave, but if none of the other options pan out, it's better than nothing.

My order of desired outcome would be Store -> One per holiday event -> Something trophy related -> In cave

People opposed to the store don't want to have a 'value' set to the them, but keep in mind that nothing you get from the store as planned can be traded. It would still take around a year for players to earn one so it would be no faster than the 'one for participating in holiday event' would be, so I don't see why there's much more opposition to the store.

If the store was real money, then I'd see it, but it's not.

 

I also wouldn't mind an achievement system, but anything that benefits people for doing things they might not want to do is usually met with backlash.. kinda the same with the trophy thing even though I personally would like more trophies. It's hard to please everyone.

[Robot Chimera]

I honestly would even be in favor of a new trophy rank (to make Halloween releases even not odd). I'm not saying I want them in-cave, but if none of the other options pan out, it's better than nothing.

My order of desired outcome would be Store -> One per holiday event -> Something trophy related -> In cave

People opposed to the store don't want to have a 'value' set to the them, but keep in mind that nothing you get from the store as planned can be traded. It would still take around a year for players to earn one so it would be no faster than the 'one for participating in holiday event' would be, so I don't see why there's much more opposition to the store.

If the store was real money, then I'd see it, but it's not.

 

I also wouldn't mind an achievement system, but anything that benefits people for doing things they might not want to do is usually met with backlash.. kinda the same with the trophy thing even though I personally would like more trophies. It's hard to please everyone.

The store places them at the same value as coppers, which is 4 months, not even close to a year.

 

And even if they aren't tradebale, the value there is still applied.

[Dragon_Arbock]

4-5 months actually, and everything there is tentative- if you want it to be higher, go express your opinion in that thread. But Gold is only set at 6 months, and I do not think the prizes should be more than Golds.

Also, that's 5 months straight of earning all possible points every week. Not 5 months casual.

[Robot Chimera]

4-5 months actually, and everything there is tentative- if you want it to be higher, go express your opinion in that thread. But Gold is only set at 6 months, and I do not think the prizes should be more than Golds.

Also, that's 5 months straight of earning all possible points every week. Not 5 months casual.

Most people are going to be maxed out while casual though considering it's "anti-grind"

 

And no thanks to mentioning that in the store thread. This thread has been bad enough.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Robot Chimera

[Dragon_Arbock]

Well, even two a year isn't that bad, and people will not exclusively be asking for Prizes- even during the raffles some people chose Hollies, for instance.

I do not see the value changing just because 'the store said so' either. I see the store and the 'one per holiday event completion' being equal solutions, and there's currently a lot more CB Golds and Silvers so it will takes the Prizes a while to catch up.

 

And eh, I'm not arguing, just stating my opinions. If anything happens it'll be a while.

[Robot Chimera]

Well, even two a year isn't that bad, and people will not exclusively be asking for Prizes- even during the raffles some people chose Hollies, for instance.

They didn't choose hollies - they were Honorable Mentions and could choose any non-prize dragon. Prize owners couldn't "downgrade" to a holly either.

[SullenCat]

4-5 months actually, and everything there is tentative- if you want it to be higher, go express your opinion in that thread. But Gold is only set at 6 months, and I do not think the prizes should be more than Golds.

Also, that's 5 months straight of earning all possible points every week. Not 5 months casual.

There's also another consideration. There's a good chance that a high percentage of the people initially using the store would be working on earning a Tinsel or Shimmer. Side note, my priority would be a CB Holly instead. Anyway, once several thousands achieve their goal and several other thousands realize that is achievable, I doubt that the equivalence with a Copper, a Silver or a Gold will be that important.