Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Allspice]

I don't know about PieMaster's reasoning, but I can give my own reasons for wanting refusals removed.

 

First of all, I don't see refusals as an integral part of the game. To me, they feel like something that seemed like a good idea to TJ back when he started the game and that was just kind of left there even as other parts of the game changed and evolved.

 

I think the reasons why refuals should not exist have been well hashed over throughout the threads that are seeking to fix them:

 

1. It doesn't make sense from an animal breeder standpoint. As illustrated with the panda example, animals typically "show no interest" or mate, but unsuccessfully. These are options we already have. Furthermore, a breeder has recourse even if two animals do "refuse to go near each other" - some method of coaxing, artificial enhancers (if you read about what they do to get zoo animals "in the mood", it's kind of hysterical), or artificial insemination. You don't just have them refuse to go near each other once and NEVER TRY AGAIN.

 

2. It doesn't make sense from a human standpoint. People change their minds. The plot of about 1/3 of all chick flicks involves a couple who hated each other and then fall in love later. A lengthy cooldown makes far more sense than "I HATE YOU FOREVER AND EVER AMEN." If the game was actually going to be realistic about relationships, it would be established mates who would up and hate each other one day and never go back, and no one wants that to happen.

 

3. I don't really see how the game could be negatively impacted by removing refusals. Without them, there is still no guarantee that a pairing will breed the way you want or even produce an egg at all. I doubt the chances of successful egg-getting would even go up. You might encounter the usual "showed no interest" or "attempt to breed, but did not produce an egg" results, but you're always able to try and have that chance that maybe, just maybe, one of these days, they will breed that stupid egg you've been after for over a year (yes, it's a thing).

 

4. Finally, a game should always be open to change for the betterment of its mechanics and for the enhancement of the experience for the players. Some of us find the current refusal system so obscenely frustrating and, frankly, stupid, that it's not only a detriment to the game for us but possibly a reason to quit playing. It's not about just making it easier, though it WOULD make things easier - but if you have a problem with that, you should have a problem with the suggestions forum existing. To remove refusals would be to have the game make more sense, allowing failed breedings to happen, and positively affect the gaming experience for everyone. If refusals were to disappear with no announcement, but everyone just stopped getting them, would anyone legitimately be upset to only encounter the other 4 possible results to breeding? Would they be sitting there, saying, "Man, I really wish I'd get a refusal! I love the challenge of trying to find a mate that will actually work for a persnickety dragon"? I doubt it. Besides, sometimes you have to switch mates just because you've been getting "no interest" for too long, even with Fertility - or because the pair refused to breed true to the parent you need. dry.gif

 

cyradis4 said that refusals are one of the things that makes DragonCave unique. KageSora pointed out that "unique" doesn't always mean "good". To me, this is one of the areas where DC is certainly unique, but not in a good way. A game shouldn't set out to frustrate its players with elements over which they have no control. That's why rare hunting isn't a legitimate comparison - with a bit of skill, the right equipment, and a commitment of time, you can always get to the point where you can catch rares (I suck at it, but that's because I don't have the time to put into it). Refusals are pure chance and basically just say, "Sucks to be you."

 

In the end, do I think that refusals "absolutely have to be removed"? No, if there's a BSA or a scroll action that will counteract a refusal and thus render refusals no longer permanent. But I see no point to the very existence of refusals, and thus far, no one has been able to show me a decent reason why they should exist. To me, the game has evolved beyond their legitimate existence.

Excellent post, my thoughts exactly. When it's an easily replaced pair, it's merely a 'roll your eyes' annoyance. When it's a pair for a lineage that you have been trying to breed for months it's demoralizing. Why should I bother if they are just going to refuse?

 

Yes, it adds a challenge, but that's not necessarily a good thing. I play a lot of video games, and if a game is challenging but fair (where the deaths/failures are my fault for failing to properly prepare) it doesn't make me want to stop, it makes me want to keep at it so I get better. But when a game is challenging because it's being cheap (putting me into situations where my chances of winning are slim to none no matter how good I am) that game is fundamentally broken. Games like that aren't fun to play.

 

IMO, refusals are a broken mechanic that seemed like a good idea at the time, but times change. With the increasing focus (for some) on lineages, it's needs an overhaul. I don't think they need to be removed entirely, but I do think a way to reverse them is a must.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Allspice

[Guillotine]

Or at least change what they do; if Refusals just resulted in a longer breeding cooldown for the pair in the future, it wouldn't be nearly as devastating as it is now because you could try again. Something like this shouldn't be as reliant on praying that the RNG decides to like you.

[Tehpikachu]

This thread is really quite incredible. Some of you want to take the challenge out of a game with very little challenge. 10/10

Edited June 3, 2014 by Tehpikachu

[Pixxelation]

This thread is really quite incredible. Some of you want to take the challenge out of a game with very little challenge. 10/10

As I have said in the thread before, refusals are not a "challenge" in that they do not test an ability of the user. They are an obstacle that, at times, users cannot move past.

 

Also, taking the challenge out of DC would be removing egg limits and allowing users to choose what eggs they wanted without any competition or rarity, as well as changing lineages to be created by dragging and dropping tiles of dragons.

 

~

 

@Starscream: Personally, I think refusals should have been removed a long time ago, back when lineages were added. Without lineages, it makes perfect sense and adds more to what otherwise would have been a very repetitive game after enough time. With lineages, it's a pain that doesn't add any enhancement, but gets in the way of other aspects of the game and cannot be overcome. They can destroy lineage projects involving years of preparation/breeding and irreplaceable dragons, and are most definitely something I feel is a fragment of older versions of the site.

Edited June 3, 2014 by PieMaster

[Tehpikachu]

As I have said in the thread before, refusals are not a "challenge" in that they do not test an ability of the user. They are an obstacle that, at times, users cannot move past.

 

Also, taking the challenge out of DC would be removing egg limits and allowing users to choose what eggs they wanted without any competition or rarity, as well as changing lineages to be created by dragging and dropping tiles of dragons.

So, in other words, you want to make the game easier than it already is.

[Pixxelation]

Sort of. I want to take out an outdated feature that gets in the way of current gameplay. That would be the same kind of "making the game easier" as fixing a flat tire to make driving "easier."

Edited June 3, 2014 by PieMaster

[LibbyLishly]

So, in other words, you want to make the game easier than it already is.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to make an element of a game 'easier' if it also enhances the game and fixes certain problematic elements. If you'll look, you'll note that MOST suggestions are hoping to fix or adjust a certain part of the game, and all of those could be accused of trying to make it 'easier'. I like challenges where my skill and dedication will solve the problem. A chance 'screw you' element in the game is, as Allspice said, a broken game mechanic.

[Pixxelation]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to make an element of a game 'easier' if it also enhances the game and fixes certain problematic elements. If you'll look, you'll note that MOST suggestions are hoping to fix or adjust a certain part of the game, and all of those could be accused of trying to make it 'easier'. I like challenges where my skill and dedication will solve the problem. A chance 'screw you' element in the game is, as Allspice said, a broken game mechanic.

Very much this.

[edwardelricfreak]

Even with Libby's post, I still don't see a good reason for TOTALLY removing refusals. I would rather some alternative that makes them less permanent definitely be incorporated, but NO, nothing that completely takes them out (or renders them almost completely harmless, like too-short cooldowns).

[LibbyLishly]

Even with Libby's post, I still don't see a good reason for TOTALLY removing refusals. I would rather some alternative that makes them less permanent definitely be incorporated, but NO, nothing that completely takes them out (or renders them almost completely harmless, like too-short cooldowns).

I'm cool with alternatives. I'm just not okay with the stupid things being forever with no chance to try again. I'd PREFER to see them gone, though, especially if TJ feels he doesn't have time to code a BSA.

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm cool with alternatives. I'm just not okay with the stupid things being forever with no chance to try again. I'd PREFER to see them gone, though, especially if TJ feels he doesn't have time to code a BSA.

Yes this.

 

I just don't want them totally gone. I'm not saying like like refusals and want them around, but that's also like saying I don't want mosquitoes around. They have their purpose, even if it's just being incredibly ANNOYING.

 

While it would be interesting to see even established breeds able to refuse and refuse being on just a rather long cooldown instead of permanent (except maybe some pairs where it is), just to be as realistic as possible, I think it would be a disaster.

 

The reason why I'd rather keep at least some reality of partially permanent refusals (that is, they can be occasionally reset for another try) instead of make it like what I described above is, with refusals, it's a first time thing. It's not like you've already established that they're always going to breed and then suddenly refusal. Refusals close a door before you walk through it, basically, so that's why I think it's okay to keep. If we get rid of them completely, okay sure the chances of breeding go up, but yes, you will mostly likely get an egg, at least eventually. Though you're not guaranteed to get one on the next try or even a year's worth of tries, the possibility is still there. With refusals, though, you have the chance of never getting an egg from a pair. I'd like to have limited chances on resetting a refusal, but not get rid of them completely, and certainly not actually have already existing pairs start refusing.

 

Also I just REALLY REALLY want more BSAs, you have no idea. I just want almost all of the suggested BSAs to be FINALLY added, oh my goodness, even if they're repeats of currently existing ones on a wider range of dragons.

[LibbyLishly]

Also I just REALLY REALLY want more BSAs, you have no idea. I just want almost all of the suggested BSAs to be FINALLY added, oh my goodness, even if they're repeats of currently existing ones on a wider range of dragons.

Omgsh I agree with you so much on this. To give a reversal/reconcilatory BSA to a dragon does have this as a huge plus.

[KageSora]

This thread is really quite incredible. Some of you want to take the challenge out of a game with very little challenge. 10/10

Explain to me the challenge behind "something I have no control over what-so-ever happened and there is literally nothing I can possibly do to prepare for, avoid, or work around aside from scrapping potentially months or even years of hard work and starting over again".

 

That's not a challenge. That's "screw this game, it's broken". I have quit games for things like that. I had a game that I had put about 6 hours of work into and the game crashed on me. I didn't touch it again for months, and was debating on if I even wanted to continue at all because losing 6 hours of hard work because of something outside of my control was crushing. (It was a game that you actively play, not a DC-like game where you can just play for a few minutes here or there to slowly work towards your goals)

 

When a game puts obstacles that I can get around by preparation, or by learning through trial and error, that's okay. But when it fails to mention that not bringing X item to Y location means you won't be able to proceed, but that the area is sealed behind you, thus trapping you and forcing you to either restart your last save or restart the game if you saved after arriving... That's called "game breaking" and refusals fall much closer to that end of the spectrum, IMO, than they do the "oops I could have avoided that if I'd thought it through/done my research/etc.".

 

 

Forcing a chance element that perma-blocks you from doing what you want if you fail (which is 100% up to the RNG and there is literally no way to influence the outcome) in a game that heavily features the idea of "play how you like, do what you want" seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

 

First of all, I don't see refusals as an integral part of the game. To me, they feel like something that seemed like a good idea to TJ back when he started the game and that was just kind of left there even as other parts of the game changed and evolved.

That's mostly what it feels like to me, too. Back in the day they weren't that big a deal. A frustration, yeah, but not devastating.

 

Because back then you didn't have anywhere near as many dragons that were irreplaceable. You also have to admit that, for better or worse, lineages have become very important to a decent chunk of players. Back when lineages didn't exist or were just a nifty new feature and we didn't have as many people who were super interested in them or making the variations etc. a refusal didn't necessarily mean months of hard work down the drain as often as it might now.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, as I said in another thread before...a friend of mine gave me the tip of using fertility on both dragons before the first breeding and she says she hasn't had a refusal once.

And I can say the same with difficult couples where I used double-fertility. They might not produce an egg on the first try but they don't refuse at least.

 

If this works (we'll need people who had refusals despite double-fertility to speak up or TJ to say something) you have your solution: get Purple dragons.

My GoN just refused a SW, both had fertility on them

[Fuzzbucket]

My GoN just refused a SW, both had fertility on them

Ditto - for refusals with fertility. And TJ has said doing it on both makes no difference and wastes a purple - but yes I did it anyway. And they refused (not a GoN, but a pair of commons I needed for a lineage.)

[Hatsune Scratch]

The feels are too strong for this one

[King_Max_Cat]

I really agree with the suggestion of no refusals, or a way to 'get around them' or something. It just sucks so, SO much when 2 dragons of a rare lineage refuse, and there is nothing you can do. KageSora, I could not have said it better myself - when a game just flat out makes you hit a wall for no good reason - just random chance, honestly! - it's maddening. I vote for the end of refusals. The methods I'm liking are either a BSA (and not from some rare dragon either....a dragon with the commonality of a Purple, and a cooldown of, say, a month or so - nothing drastically long!) OR the suggestion of "the 2 dragons aren't interested/don't breed" message being a bit more common, and just getting rid of refusals.

Edited July 28, 2014 by King_Max_Cat

[Fuzzbucket]

My dragons show almost 400 refusals (I have a CHART !) - and I would still prefer to see a BSA to undo refusals, with a fail rate. I can't see the need to make everything work as perfectly as we might like. Then there is no challenge - and yes, I have had some critical ones in my time. Even so..

[JavaTigress]

My dragons show almost 400 refusals (I have a CHART !) - and I would still prefer to see a BSA to undo refusals, with a fail rate. I can't see the need to make everything work as perfectly as we might like. Then there is no challenge - and yes, I have had some critical ones in my time. Even so..

I would be in favor of a refusal reversal BSA of some kind... as I recall there are a number of variants of such under consideration on her. I would pretty much be in favor of ANY option that would allow for the POSSIBLITY of undoing those particularly irreplaceable refusals. ( I haven't got many of those... but a few pairs I was truly WORRIED about, I can tell you).

[Hellen]

Actually, I do not find Refusals all that frustrating.

 

A groan "Oh no" and a head shake, and I try a different mate next time.

(Now people will argue "But what if I cannot GET a different mate?!". There ware always ways to get different mates, even if it's a lot of work.)

 

Refusals are a part of the gameplay, and I find it very... boring to not have the refusals, and always getting the egg that I want. It would take the fun out of it, and the "missbreds" that other people still could value.

 

As a matter of fact, refusals are just a wording for incompatible mates.

Which happens in nature too.

Not all mates are compatible.

 

*shrugs*

 

I'd leave refusals as they are. It's not even THAT big a problem, I might add.

I kept breeding dozends and dozends of GWs, and had more "No eggs/No interests" than refusals. (the actual number was out of 89 breedings, I got three refusals and more than half of no egg/no interest)

[KageSora]

You won't always get the egg you want even without refusals. No eggs will still happen, getting the egg of the wrong parent will still happen. You won't be guaranteed the egg you want at all.

 

And, it may be possible to replace a mate, but if you have spent months working to get that mate and suddenly face the prospect of facing months more... That's not exactly "fun" at all. That adds no interest to the game, adds no fun.

 

What it does add is frustration of the degree that, if repeated too much, leads to "screw this game, it's not worth it".

 

Additionally, just because it's not that big of a problem to you doesn't mean that other users aren't actually finding it to be a huge issue. Clearly it's a big enough problem that there's support for the idea of removing them--if it was truly nothing more than a minor inconvenience to everybody this topic probably wouldn't even exist, much less have any kind of real support from players.

Edited July 30, 2014 by KageSora

[Fuzzbucket]

Sure it is a problem. An awful problem at times. But without problems life would be very dull - and yes, that even includes escapist games. It is also a problem that I cannot persuade higher gen dragons in my various nebula lineages to colour right, which is why one of them took me over two years to get the last two nebbies for a mere 5th gen checker. As for breeding from my low gen tin for IOUs.... I've bred 18 children, two of which were tins, and I have three people still waiting.

 

It is even a problem that I am deaf ! But one works around such things.

[JavaTigress]

You won't always get the egg you want even without refusals. No eggs will still happen, getting the egg of the wrong parent will still happen. You won't be guaranteed the egg you want at all.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

This is ESPECIALLY true for rares, I would say... which, less face it are PROBABLY some of the most painful to have refuse. I have a pair I am dyeing to get an egg from, they haven't refused, but... I still have no egg from them, and it may be a while before I get an egg from them. That is just how breeding works. So, no... doing away with refusals, or having a way of working around them, would NOT mean that we are suddenly being showered with an avalanche of rare eggs.

 

There ARE other ways of keeping rares rare without the overwhelming annoyance.

[KageSora]

A challenge in a game is all well and good... But when it negates months or years of work and there is literally no way around it or undoing it except to start over, or give up if starting over isn't possible... That's not a challenge that gives interest to the game. That's a frustration-inducing "feature" that's more bother than it's worth.

[AwesoMan30000]

I would aagree with having refusals that aren't permanent; I think it should be a random cool down, minimum of a month. And the chance of refusal decreases a bit after that.