Request: No new Prize breeds, please!

[rumor33]

--eta--

@rumor33: 15-21 new breeds with 3 new prizes means 20-13% new prizes in that year. Thats worse than the 5%, not better...

Why are we taking in out of just the new release breeds? I was saying the next years breeds would be added to the total amount of breeds.

 

Lets say there are approximately 125 current breeds (I don't want to get into exacts because then we have to discuss whether variants do or do not count and no I don't want to go down that road.) 6/125= .048, so yes, currently prizes are about 5% of sprites in existence.

 

With regular releases lets low ball it and say that by next raffle there are 140 breeds. If we get new prize dragons then than that's 9/140= .064 or approximately 6%. That's not really a drastic increase when you consider it. Especially if we only get new prizes every three or four years.

Edited February 11, 2014 by rumor33

[cyradis4]

1) You are forgetting that between now and the next raffle approximately 14-19 new dragons should be releases in the cave. They won't be 5% by then.

 

2) Saying that they are the best is completely a matter of opinion. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with them, but honestly there are quite a few commons that I personally prefer. Everyone has their own preference. The fact that they are your favorite isn't a valid argument for this.

No, I'm not. I just didn't want to depress anyone any more with the figures. The number of dragons they can breed with is about 95? ish. I counted, but I think it was really 93. So.... 6 / 95 = 6.3%

 

Lets say 14 new breeds that Shimmers and Tinsels can breed with are released (reasonable, several of the breeds released this year were two-heads). That ups the total number of breeds to, call it, 110.

6 Prizes / 110 total = 5.5%

 

Add in three new prize sprites, with the expected growth of 14 regular breeds:

9 Prizes / 110 total = 8.1%

 

Add in 14 new AND 3 new prize sprites the year after that:

12 / 124 = 9.7%

 

And so on and so forth. In short: I understated the number, not overstated it. As for the best... Yes, that is debatable. There are those who like the sprite and those who don't, as with any sprite.

 

They are not my favorite. But they are still some of the best done sprites in the cave. And they are still 6 metallics, when we have only 5 other true metallics. So, over 50% of the metallic breeds.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 11, 2014 by cyradis4

[egwenna]

I'm a CB tinsel owner from the first wave, and I'm very proud of that. He is special to me. The more CB tinsels and Shimmers you introduce, the less value they have for the original owners. I was a bit disappointed that CB tinsels were prizes again, because my CB Bronze was no longer one of the 30 or so CB Bronze Tinsels in existence.

Sorry. No sympathy here. They give out the same Gold-Silver-Bronze every year at the Olympics. I don't see the earlier athletes complaining that they're medals aren't as shiny. Same with the Oscars. And the Golden Globes. They had to work their butts off, and have a bit of luck, just to get what other winners got and they all look pretty happy.

 

Eventually a new prize dragon might be nice. Opportunities to get a prize at some other point -on DC- would also be nice.

[rumor33]

No, I'm not. I just didn't want to depress anyone any more with the figures. The number of dragons they can breed with is about 95?

 

Lets say 14 new breeds that Shimmers and Tinsels can breed with are released (reasonable, several of the breeds released this year were two-heads). That ups the total number of breeds to, call it, 110.

Why are we limiting it to just the breeds that Shims and Tins can breed with? I thought that we were taking about the number of sprites in the cave overall, though I did exclude unbreedables and retired sprites. My quick count was 123, but if you are excluding two heads and pygmys that might be part of the discrepancy. Also, I wouldn't expect new prizes every year, lets say every three

 

so I still say, 6/123= .048 or 5%

 

next year 9/141 (old breeds, plus 14 new, plus 3 new prizes) = .063 or around 6%

 

wait another three years for new prize 12/186(141 plus 14x3 plus 3 new prizes) = .064 or still around 6%

Edited February 11, 2014 by rumor33

[King_Max_Cat]

*snip*

The more CB tinsels and Shimmers you introduce, the less value they have for the original owners. I was a bit disappointed that CB tinsels were prizes again, because my CB Bronze was no longer one of the 30 or so CB Bronze Tinsels in existence. You're reducing the value of the prize- Which, as a PRIZE, should not be done- simply because non-winners want what they didn't win.

*snip*

just adding in MORE into the pool makes the accomplishment less special.

I agree 100%. As a CB Silver Shimmer owner, yeah, I do believe these prize dragons should be super exclusive and rare and hard to get. That's why they're called PRIZES. Because they are special and only handed out to a few people. They're supposed to be super rare.

Edited February 11, 2014 by King_Max_Cat

[Fiona]

You're adding 3 new prize breeds every year with your numbers. So far it's been 3 new prize breeds every 2 years. So instead of 9/110 it would be in the neighborhood of 9/125 (assuming 15 new regular breeds each year.) Changes your math considerably. That's also on the low end I think for new regular breeds in the cave. We can't know that for certain, but you seem to have estimated conservatively.

 

And if you want new metallics to breed with that aren't prize dragons, there are at least a couple that are completed. All you have to do is talk TJ into making their release a priority, right?

 

Frankly, the prize dragon sprites are among my favorites. (I like shiny!) I'd like more of them. Because Pretty! But whether we have new prize dragons or not, whether 2nd gens are scarce or not, it doesn't interfere with my ability to make pretty lineages of dragons that I enjoy.

 

 

I'm really very against this suggestion, for various reasons. None of the arguments presented have so far changed my mind in any way.

 

[cyradis4]

Why are we limiting it to just the breeds that Shims and Tins can breed with? I thought that we were taking about the number of sprites in the cave overall. My quick count was 123, but if you are excluding two heads and pygmys that might be part of the discrepancy. Also, I wouldn't expect new prizes every year, lets say every three

 

so I still say, 6/123= .048 or 5%

 

next year 9/141 (old breeds, plus 14 new, plus 3 new prizes) = .063 or around 6%

 

wait another three years for new prize 12/186(141 plus 14x3 plus 3 new prizes) = .064 or still around 6%

Because they are the only dragons the tinsels and shimmers can breed with? When one is doing lineages with Prize dragons, one doesn't care about two headed dragons, because you can't breed a tinsel with a two headed dragon.

 

And even by your math.... its 6%, and stays 6%, which is still greater than the 5% I was quoting.

 

And I still say 6% is too high a percentage for a super exclusive that 99% of the userbase will never own a 2nd gen from. Can't own a 2nd gen from, because there aren't enough CB Prize dragons to produce enough 2nd gens, even breeding a prize every other week. Certainly there's no way for the average user to ever get 2nd gens from EACH prize sprite.

 

I believe that super exclusives should be kept to an absolute minimum. We have to live with the 6% of super exclusives we have now. Personally, I would love to see it reduced to 1% before any new Prize breeds are added.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[hazeh]

Sorry. No sympathy here. They give out the same Gold-Silver-Bronze every year at the Olympics. I don't see the earlier athletes complaining that they're medals aren't as shiny. Same with the Oscars. And the Golden Globes. They had to work their butts off, and have a bit of luck, just to get what other winners got and they all look pretty happy.

 

Eventually a new prize dragon might be nice. Opportunities to get a prize at some other point -on DC- would also be nice.

Sorry, those aren't comparable. Those are actual medals for working hard and doing something that they accomplish.

 

Prizes are just that- prizes. Medals are not prizes, they are tokens for an achievement.

 

The more you have of one special thing, the more the individual special things lose value. It's simple economics. Medals don't, because they represent something else entirely.

 

So, you want them to be the grapes, noone can get? Because of the original owners, many have left/lost interest etc. So to newer people, it is almost impossible to get anything closely resembling a low gen dragon, as lists are filled and stay filled. And then, new prizes come out, you need to fight to get on early or bust.

 

Given the alternative, I'll have to say the following: Poor Original Owners, but its how it should be - for the good of the many, rerelease more of them in the raffle. smile.gif

 

Well I certainly don't want them to be something everyone can just get because everyone wants them that badly. They are rare FOR A REASON. This idea is effectively decreasing their rarity, which is against the entire purpose of a Prize Dragon in the first place.

Just because you have to work for it doesn't mean you should undermine the original winners just to get one. Low gens are hard to get because they are special. It's entirely possible to get a higher gen tinsel, so it's not like Tinsels are impossible to obtain.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I agree 100%. As a CB Silver Shimmer owner, yeah, I do believe these prize dragons should be super exclusive and rare and hard to get. That's why they're called PRIZES. Because they are special and only handed out to a few people. They're supposed to be super rare.

They are still super rare. Barring something insane happening, they always will be. A few hundred in a game of several thousands means nothing. When you can't trade your dragon's offspring for multiple CB Metals at will, then maybe I'll believe they've lost a notable amount of rarity. Otherwise... :/

 

At either rate, I still think exclusives are a crappy thing to add to a collecting game to begin with. Yes, even if that exclusives only exist for the CBs ("but what about Holidays," you ask? Well, I gripe about those too--and I have all of them save Holly, which I have a 2g and 3g of. No secret benefit to their return, just my loathing for exclusives in almost all forms)

Edited February 11, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

Sorry, those aren't comparable. Those are actual medals for working hard and doing something that they accomplish.

 

Prizes are just that- prizes. Medals are not prizes, they are tokens for an achievement.

 

The more you have of one special thing, the more the individual special things lose value. It's simple economics. Medals don't, because they represent something else entirely.

 

 

 

Well I certainly don't want them to be something everyone can just get because everyone wants them that badly. They are rare FOR A REASON. This idea is effectively decreasing their rarity, which is against the entire purpose of a Prize Dragon in the first place.

Just because you have to work for it doesn't mean you should undermine the original winners just to get one. Low gens are hard to get because they are special. It's entirely possible to get a higher gen tinsel, so it's not like Tinsels are impossible to obtain.

Oh come on, releasing just Tinsels and SHimmers as prizes for several years will not make them common. Nor even rare! They will still be extremely exclusive. There are on average 1,000 players on in any given hour. I've seen it spike up to 2,000 people in an hour, strongly hinting that there are at least 4,000 active players. People counted 9,000 trees in that contest.

 

So.... There are currently 240 Prizes, divided between SIX species. Or:

20 Gold Tinsels

40 Silver Tinsels

60 Bronze Tinsels

20 Gold Shimmers

40 Silver Shimmers

60 Bronze Tinsels.

 

You'd have to give out 120 prizes for the next 4 years to get even 1,000 Prizes into the game. And... You've have to give out Tinsels and Shimmers, at this rate, for the next FIVE years to get even 100 Gold Tinsels into the game. We've already lost a confirmed 2 Silver Tinsels and 1 Silver Shimmer. There are many other owners who've left the game, and many who choose not to breed their prize. And at least one that is frozen.

 

Your pretty dragon will never not be extremely exclusive. Even if DC lasts for 10 more years.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[rumor33]

Because they are the only dragons the tinsels and shimmers can breed with? When one is doing lineages with Prize dragons, one doesn't care about two headed dragons, because you can't breed a tinsel with a two headed dragon.

 

And even by your math.... its 6%, and stays 6%, which is still greater than the 5% I was quoting.

 

And I still say 6% is too high a percentage for a super exclusive that 99% of the userbase will never own a 2nd gen from. Can't own a 2nd gen from, because there aren't enough CB Prize dragons to produce enough 2nd gens, even breeding a prize every other week. Certainly there's no way for the average user to ever get 2nd gens from EACH prize sprite.

 

I believe that super exclusives should be kept to an absolute minimum. We have to live with the 6% of super exclusives we have now. Personally, I would love to see it reduced to 1% before any new Prize breeds are added.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I was under the impression that the argument was 5% of the sprites are limited to only a certain number of players, therefore that %5 is hard for the populous to make lineages with. If that is your argument you need to count ALL dragons you can make lineages with, not just those that can involving prizes.

 

And yes, six percent is slightly higher than 5, but its far from the 10-20 that was being suggested. Also, it was made with low ball numbers, with regular releases we could very well see a growth of more than 14 new breeds a year. Plus, that was the high point of the three year cycle I was suggesting. if we look at the year before the new prize year-12/186 we would see 9/169 which is 5% again.

 

Regardless, my point remains that given the influx of new breeds every year, even if we were to add new prizes we aren't looking at a site over run by 'exclusive' breeds.

Edited February 11, 2014 by rumor33

[cyradis4]

I was under the impression that the argument was 5% of the sprites are limited to only a certain number of players, therefore that %5 is hard for the populous to make lineages with. If that is your argument you need to count ALL dragons you can make lineages with, not just those that can involving prizes.

 

And yes, six percent is slightly higher than 5, but its far from the 10-20 that was being suggested. Also, it was made with low ball numbers, with regular releases we could very well see a growth of more than 14 new breeds a year.

Yep, that post of mine was a sarcastic comment on just how far are the exclusives were going to be taken, in response to marrionetta's suggestion that tons of uber exclusives be released.

 

As for the numbers... Two heads and Pygmies and drakes can never ever form a lineage with a prize (barring a glitch). So, their sprites can never have Prize x (them) lineages. So why count them? As far as prize breeding is concerned (which is my main thing), they don't exist. And yep, I understated the numbers. They are bad enough, even when you take them all into account.

 

Historically, the 14 releases per year is on the low side. How long TJ will stick to his current plan, which is after all not even a year old, remains to be seen. He might do more (which I'd like), or he might do less. Who knows? Either way, I feel that there are more than enough exclusive sprites to last at least several years before they should even consider a new set of prize sprites.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[hazeh]

If the dragons are intended as prizes, then they should be prizes. Prizes should not have to decrease in their rarity over time. My Tinsel went from being 1 in 30 (I think that was the original number?) to 1 in 60, and if this continues, that number will only increase.

That is not cool.

If TJ wants to increase the numbers of prizes that are available for each given year, that's fine by me, just as long as the CB number of the dragon itself stays consistent as time goes on.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Oh no, then there might even someday be... like, a h-hundred CB Bronze Tinsels in a game of thousands! Their offspring might only go for 5 CB Metals instead of 6! People might actually forget some of the older celebrities' names! The horror! The horrorrr!

 

Except nah, not really filling a big upwelling of pity about it. DC was better before celebrities and super ultra shiny exclusives (CB Hollies were close, sure, but I don't think they were ever at the current extremes). So I support a move back, not a maintaining of the status quo.

 

Because to me, the best games are those where with time and effort /everyone/ has a shot of getting it all.

 

Is it just a game? Yah. Am I going to enjoy it either way? Yep. But I still feel that it's better with less of it... and the "it's just a game, does it matter?" street goes both ways.

Edited February 11, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[hazeh]

Except they DO have a shot at getting it all? That's what I don't understand about this whole thing. Tinsels/Shimmers are NOT impossible to obtain by anyone.

 

Basically what I'm getting from this is,

 

You (general) want to take value away from a special dragon that was given to select people because you want it to be easier to get something which is already obtainable simply because you want a super special version of it, which should be hard to get in the first place??

Edited February 11, 2014 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[rumor33]

 

As for the numbers... Two heads and Pygmies and drakes can never ever form a lineage with a prize (barring a glitch). So, their sprites can never have Prize x (them) lineages. So why count them? As far as prize breeding is concerned (which is my main thing), they don't exist. And yep, I understated the numbers. They are bad enough, even when you take them all into account.

 

But you're not really talking about prize breeding, you're talking about the unfairness of not being able to breed a certain lineage you want because the particular dragon you'd like to use is a prize and therefore very hard to obtain. Thats based on a comparison of all other dragons that are relatively easier to create lineages with. So you are talking about that 5% being out of all dragons you can make lineages with, which includes non-prize lineages.

 

If the dragons are intended as prizes, then they should be prizes. Prizes should not have to decrease in their rarity over time. My Tinsel went from being 1 in 30 (I think that was the original number?) to 1 in 60, and if this continues, that number will only increase.

That is not cool.

 

While I'm not totally unsympathetic to that point of view, it is important to remember that after a time even prize winners will go inactive and its not fair to the population as a whole to make them harder and harder to get over time. I do think that if Prizes are 'retired' they should become eligible for HM prizes to make sure there are always a viable population of CBs.

[TJ09]

And there would STILL be 9 sprites that couldn't be used for lineage projects that aren't stairs:

Gold Tinsels

Gold Shimmers

Gold newbie

 

Silver Tinsels

Silver Shimmers

Silver Newbies

 

Bronze Tinsels

Bronze Shimmers

Bronze newbies

 

Count em... 9. Or... 10% of the currently released "normal" dragon population. I personally think that's a far too high a percentage of "exclusive" breeds to "normal" breeds. For that matter, I think the current 5% "Exclusive" to "Regular" is too high.

 

Cheers!

C4.

You're dividing sprites by breeds, which gives you some measurement whose units are completely meaningless for the purpose you're using them for.

 

There are 2 prize breeds out of 100+ breeds, so less than 2% of the breeds in-cave are prizes.

 

There are 6 prize sprites out of ~300 sprites (I don't think we're quite at 300 yet), which still gives a little over 2%.

 

So between the two methods, you end up with roughly 2%. Not 5%. Add one more breed and you get 3%, not 10%.

[hazeh]

 

 

 

While I'm not totally unsympathetic to that point of view, it is important to remember that after a time even prize winners will go inactive and its not fair to the population as a whole to make them harder and harder to get over time. I do think that if Prizes are 'retired' they should become eligible for HM prizes to make sure there are always a viable population of CBs.

I would be totally fine with previous year prizes as being eligible for HM prizes, I don't see an issue with that. But significantly increasing the number of prizes, as a whole, consistently, is not okay to me. Every year should be special in its own right, and have its own special Prize dragon to correspond with it. I was pretty disappointed that previous Prizes were reused this year.

[cyradis4]

You're dividing sprites by breeds, which gives you some measurement whose units are completely meaningless for the purpose you're using them for.

 

There are 2 prize breeds out of 100+ breeds, so less than 2% of the breeds in-cave are prizes.

 

There are 6 prize sprites out of ~300 sprites (I don't think we're quite at 300 yet), which still gives a little over 2%.

 

So between the two methods, you end up with roughly 2%. Not 5%. Add one more breed and you get 3%, not 10%.

If I breed a Golden Wyvern to a Royal Crimson, I can get three sprites: male and female Golden Wyvern, and of course Royal Crimson. So, I'd consider the Golden Wyverns to be one breed, ie, they produce both sprites.

 

If I breed a Blue Nebula to a Royal Crimson, I'll get: Blue Neb, Red Neb, Green Neb, Purple Neb, and of course Royal Crimson. So, since each of the Nebula sprites can be had from one Nebula, I'd call them one breed. After all, just because you get a Chestnut horse from a Bay horse doesn't mean they are different breeds!

 

When I breed a Silver tinsel to a Silver tinsel, I get only Silver Tinsels. No matter how many times I try, I get just the Silver Tinsels. So... if I want to collect and use Bronze tinsels, I have to get a Bronze tinsel. Or.... I won't get a bronze tinsel, because my Silver tinsels can't produce a Bronze tinsel.

So.... Different breeds.

 

Now if you change the coding so my Silver Tinsel x Silver Tinsel produces all three colors, now then I'd say they were the same breed.

 

You can of course count them as you wish, but as a user of the site, I view the prizes as 6 different breeds.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 11, 2014 by cyradis4

[olympe]

I support this for all the reasons already stated. I think we have enough unobtainables already.

[TJ09]

If I breed a Golden Wyvern to a Royal Crimson, I can get three sprites: male and female Golden Wyvern, and of course Royal Crimson. So, I'd consider the Golden Wyverns to be one breed, ie, they produce both sprites.

 

If I breed a Blue Nebula to a Royal Crimson, I'll get: Blue Neb, Red Neb, Green Neb, Purple Neb, and of course Royal Crimson. So, since each of the Nebula sprites can be had from one Nebula, I'd call them one breed. After all, just because you get a Chestnut horse from a Bay horse doesn't mean they are different breeds!

 

When I breed a Silver tinsel to a Silver tinsel, I get only Silver Tinsels. No matter how many times I try, I get just the Silver Tinsels. So... if I want to collect and use Bronze tinsels, I have to get a Bronze tinsel. Or.... I won't get a bronze tinsel, because my Silver tinsels can't produce a Bronze tinsel.

So.... Different breeds.

 

Now if you change the coding so my Silver Tinsel x Silver Tinsel produces all three colors, now then I'd say they were the same breed.

 

You can of course count them as you wish, but as a user of the site, I view the prizes as 6 different breeds.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Having more options for getting a given sprite in some cases verses others, doesn't change the distinction between a sprite and a breed.

 

Your post has failed to convince me that that are anything other than two prize breeds (and six prize sprites). As such, your 5%/10% statistic has no meaning to me--and you'll have a hard time getting a suggestion implemented if most of the user support is based on an argument that I don't buy.

[cyradis4]

Having more options for getting a given sprite in some cases verses others, doesn't change the distinction between a sprite and a breed.

 

Your post has failed to convince me that that are anything other than two prize breeds (and six prize sprites).

How about this argument?

 

There are fish in the African Rift lakes, (lets take Lake Malawi, one of my favorites) that look physically identical in body shape, but are different colors and come from different regions of the lake. They are scientifically considered different species.

 

Lets look at Nimbochromis Venustus (lovely fish, I had them for a while, they are a piscivore, they eat baby fishes of other species. Ok, and their own, sometimes.)

The females of this species, like with many Peacock and Haps from Lake Malawi, aren't colorful in the least. Pretty drab, actually. Male / female dimorphism. Here's a male:

 

Now lets meet Nimbochromis Livingstonii (lovely fish, with one of the kewlest hunting methods I've ever seen, they use their coloring to play dead and jump up and gobble up passing baby fishes. Never had one, but I've been thinking of getting one...)

Again, the females are drab, so dimorphism. Lets meet him:

(note: links to a video)

 

Comparing the two fish, other than color (and hunting habits) they look identical. And yet scientifically, they are classes as different species. The females, on the other hand, are really close in color, but they are still classed by scientists as different species. The females look more like each other than they look like their males, actually. However.... male and female Venustus, despite looking different, are still the same species, and the female Venustus and female Livingstonii are different species, despite looking alike. And of course, the outline of both the Venustus and Livingstonii are pretty much identical, its the color that provides the visual cue.

 

That's how I view the colors of Tinsels: closely related species, but still different.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 11, 2014 by cyradis4

[TJ09]

The problem with that is that breeds and species aren't comparable.

 

Really, each of the different types of dragons should probably be different species that can't inter-breed. But that distinction is completely dropped for the sake of simplicity and pretty lineages.

 

If it were the case that different prize sprites couldn't breed with each other because they are identical-but-different-species, then yes, they'd be separate.

[rumor33]

How about this argument?

 

Snip-Science!

Its kind of hard to base an argument here off of real world science, as Zoologically a species is something where two members can mate and produce viable offspring. Going by that the grand majority of dragons in the cave would be the same species.

 

Though I do think that from a lineage building standpoint the prizes can be considered separate breeds. Lineage building depends largely on color compliment and contrast of the breeds selected, because of that different colored prizes can't be considered interchangeable for lineages.

 

But I TJ isn't just speaking about lineages since it is far from the only goal in the game. In all other senses they really are just alts of the same breed.

[Achire]

The problem with that is that breeds and species aren't comparable.

 

Really, each of the different types of dragons should probably be different species that can't inter-breed. But that distinction is completely dropped for the sake of simplicity and pretty lineages.

 

If it were the case that different prize sprites couldn't breed with each other because they are identical-but-different-species, then yes, they'd be separate.

Regardless of whether they're breeds or sprites - I don't think it affects the main point of this suggestion. The suggestion is to essentially to keep tinsels and shimmers as the only prize dragons so that eventually, there will be more CBs and better lineages (like non-stairs) with these two breeds. If no more CBs get released, eventually, low-gen lineages will become rarer, as owners of CBs quit or stop breeding.

 

I think the fundamental question is diversity & proliferation of the tinsel/shimmer breeds versus exclusivity of prizes. And while I do personally see different tinsel/shimmer colors as different breeds, it's really extraneous to the main point of the suggestion, which aims to support diversity of lineage and proliferation of prize lineages over maintaining exclusivity.