Request: No new Prize breeds, please!

[Ashywolf]

WraithZephyr - Species have to breed to produce viable fertile offspring. So all dragons belong to one species, drakes to another and the unbreedables... are, well, soon to be extinct.

 

The hybrid offspring aren't true hybrids either. They breed fertile offspring, so they are just another breed of dragon with traits as a result of polymorphism.

 

edit: not polymorphic. Discrete.

This is an interesting point...pretty much all species interbreedings result in noticeable hybrids. So in that case only the dragons that do produce hybrids in the DC universe can be separate species, but then once you breed them to something else that falls flat. Well, I guess not everything in DC can make sense.

 

Also why would all the holiday dragons be separate? That is a human classification and unlikely biological.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Ashywolf

[WraithZephyr]

WraithZephyr - Species have to breed to produce viable fertile offspring. So all dragons belong to one species, drakes to another and the unbreedables... are, well, soon to be extinct.

 

The hybrid offspring aren't true hybrids either. They breed fertile offspring, so they are just another breed of dragon with traits as a result of polymorphism.

 

edit: not polymorphic. Discrete.

Dragons are not like dogs. If dragons were the same "species", then drakes, pygmys, two-headed, paper, etc. would be able to breed with golds, whites, reds, waters, etc.

 

The chart I made is very simplified. Given time, I could do a lot more detailed breakdown/re-arrangements, based along more real-world taxonomy characteristics, but that would just confuse things, but from a basic organizational standpoint it does show logical reason for why dragons are not all one species.

 

Breeding two animals of the same genus and species is natural. The mating cues that dictate breeding behavior between male and female are most easily recognized by both animals. They are fully compatible and ideal mates. (Genus-1/species-1 x Genus-1/species-1).

 

You can also have inter-grades/pseudo-hybrids produced by different subspecies of the same species. This happens naturally in the wild. (Genus-1/species-1/subspecies-1 x Genus-1/species-1/subspecies-2).

 

Hybrids are generally produced by breeding different species within the same genus. This does happen naturally in the wild though rare. The animals are close enough genetically speaking that mating cues are still similar enough that they can hook up under the right conditions. viable/fertile offspring can be produced. (Genus-1/species-1 x Genus-1/species-2)

 

Hybrids can also be produced by breeding different genus within the same family. However, this is far more rare because mating cues that dictate breeding behavior between male and female are often so different that the animals have a difficult time recognizing the other as a potential mate. But when it does happen, viable/fertile offspring can be produced. Almost always only occurs under captive conditions rather than happening naturally in the wild. (Genus-1/species-1 x Genus-2/species-1)

 

Different families, however, are typically so incompatible at the genetic level the animals don't recognize each other as compatible. It's certainly possible for very confused love-struck individuals to attempt to go through the motions of breeding, but no offspring will be produced. The common myth (in the USA) of venomous copperheads and harmless blackrat snakes breeding to create deadly black copperhead (or black ratsnakes x rattlesnakes to create a rattle-less black snake) is completely impossible. They are from completely different families whose genetic makeup has no modern common ground to allow offspring to be produced at all. There is a tiny number of exceptions in the real world (such as some guinea fowl hybrids) which suggests that their current taxonomic placement may need tweaking because obviously there is enough common ground genetically speaking to allow offspring to be produced. DNA sequencing has done a lot over the last several years for revising taxonomic placement for many animals (various reptiles as a prime example).

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

--- still, fun numbers ---

there are close to a million userids in DC. Assuming 5% are still semi-active, would give roughly 50.000 people playing on and off, assuming half of them enter the raffle - 25.000 people.

 

Assume a new breed: enter 60 new prizes. Chance to win: abysmal, as usual. Chance to trade: abysmal, too. Those 60 new prizes will average to something like 900 2nd gens per year, unless people try nasty commons all the time. So in theory, you can supply 4%of users who wanted prizes in a,year. Yeah, lol, obtainable. As if. Statistically, you'd have to wait 25 years for everyone to get a 2nd gen. Clearly, that needs to be improved, not reduced?

*nod nod*

 

All this talk of breeds and species seems unnecessary. Point is, they are six really pretty sprites that are even harder to work with in most cases than Hollies. But unlike Hollies, they can be played with and built with all year, making the rarity of low gens all that more disappointing.

 

So, adding a brand new set of sprites while the current ones are still wicked hard to come by in any form than high gen stairs? No thanks, please!

Edited February 12, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Odeen]

I think there are ways you can make sure that the populations of current low gen prizes continue to grow without completely shutting out the release of new prize dragons (such as what happened this year, with the raffle awarding CBs of both shimmers and tinsels).

 

New dragons are good. New prizes are good. You were never promised 2nd gens from every CB prize (every single tinsel and shimmer I own was a gift from dear friends of mine, and my one 2nd gen shimmerkin was also a gift that someone else caught out of the AP). You were never promised the ability to make every possible lineage in the game with ease. I will never support any suggestion that sacrifices game growth for the sake of personal convenience.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I don't think adding more exclusives is necessary to continue the growth of the game. And while of course not every lineage in the game can be made easily--nor should they be--it's a fact that making lineages with Golds and Silvers right now is vastly easier than doing so with Prizes. There is a huge, huge gap in rarity between the rarest things normally available and the things handed out to a very small minority of players, and in my opinion that's a shame.

 

(Some might suggest, then, that things be added between CB Metals and low gen Prizes in rarity, but as the former are already more than adequate challenge for most players, I would suggest rather that low gen Prizes be scaled back slightly and new rares be added at close to the level of the current Metals)

Edited February 12, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Odeen]

I don't think adding more exclusives is necessary to continue the growth of the game.

Shimmers and tinsels aren't exclusive - anyone can obtain them, it's just difficult to get low-gen offspring, and until such time as tinsels and shimmers are completely retired from being a raffle prize option, CBs will continue to not be exclusive. Restrictive? Yes. Difficult to come by? Absolutely. As impossible to come by as a one-time-release item that was only handed out at a single game convention 10 years ago? Lol, no.

 

My understanding of how rarity is calculated may be off, but as far as I'm aware adding rare breeds doesn't increase the overall percentage of rares compared to more common breeds.

 

Anyway, my point remains that as long as there is a way to continue allowing Tinsel and Shimmer CB populations to grow, there is no good reason to shut the door on the release of new prize dragons on top of them. It might be that releasing a third breed might lower the trade value of the other two, as Shimmers at least temporarily were valued more highly than tinsels.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm on a phone and writing is difficult, so I will summarize: lineages are an important element of the game to many people, and the more breeds that are exclusive at the CB level (the base level) the more frustrating the situation can be, especially when the breeds involved are really pretty, flashy, and desirable. Unless the Prize population becomes so abundant that those who crave to work with low gens are decently sated, or that winners can no longer make good use of trading their offspring if they wish, I don't think more exclusives are necessary or good. I would much rather see the introduction of more beautiful breeds that all can play and work with evenly, or close enough to it, than the addition of yet more breeds that only a very small percent of the userbase can utilize fully.

Edited February 12, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[rumor33]

Dragons are not like dogs. If dragons were the same "species", then drakes, pygmys, two-headed, paper, etc. would be able to breed with golds, whites, reds, waters, etc.

 

-snip-

All of this is just proof of why its probably a poor choice to apply real world genetics and zoology here. TJ has already stated that what would honestly be more accurate is for dragons to only breed in their species (pure breds only) but whats the fun in that? Sometimes artistic licence can be taken.

 

 

 

Did it also include hatchie sprites?

 

Probably not, or he at least estimated them out considering that three stages of just the breedables gets you over 350 sprites, factor in dimorphism in adults and S2 sprites, alts (regular and spriter), unbreedables, and discontinueds and you'd get a number closer to 600.

[TheGrox]

Anyway, my point remains that as long as there is a way to continue allowing Tinsel and Shimmer CB populations to grow, there is no good reason to shut the door on the release of new prize dragons on top of them. It might be that releasing a third breed might lower the trade value of the other two, as Shimmers at least temporarily were valued more highly than tinsels.

Basically, this. I definitely don't want Tinsels and Shimmers to stop being given out, but as long as the pool of those increases too, I wouldn't mind a new breed every few years. I don't want new breeds to stop CB tinsels and shimmers increasing in number, nor do I want the tinsels and shimmers to stop other potentially nice prize breeds being released.

[Draketeeth]

I'm not in favor of this. I like seeing new prize breeds every few years. I enjoy seeing the happiness of the people who are lucky enough to win.

 

I would like to see prize breeds put on a rotation. Tinsels should be retired to the HM slots as one of the options for people to pick from for a raffle. After that, they vanish. In their place as a prize should be a new western breed. In a few years, the Shimmers are retired to the HM slot and then vanish. In their place comes a new eastern breed. When the new western breed retires to the HM slots for that season, Tinsels can perhaps at that point be re-introduced, putting them into circulation again in what, 6-8 years or something like that? (thinking that far ahead is weird for some reason 0_o). That would maintain the specialness and rarity of the prize breeds, but not remove them entirely.

 

Many people care about their dragon's lineages, as is exemplified by how many times messy lineaged eggs, even if they are ER, get tossed back into the AP, sometimes many times (I've at times past picked up the same messy egg dozens of times over the course of an hour).

I don't see what this has to do with prize breeds-only at all. This is every breed that has ever existed.

 

I saw somewhere an an argument that changing around the prize breeds would be denying a user the ability to make even generation lineages. I call Bull to that argument. There are plenty of wonderful, under appreciated dragons that drop in the cave regularly with which to craft lineages. Restricting yourself to the rarest for lineage building is daft and frustrating. Why do that to yourself? That's a choice the user made, not something the game has forced them into.

[whitebaron]

I saw somewhere an an argument that changing around the prize breeds would be denying a user the ability to make even generation lineages. I call Bull to that argument. There are plenty of wonderful, under appreciated dragons that drop in the cave regularly with which to craft lineages. Restricting yourself to the rarest for lineage building is daft and frustrating. Why do that to yourself? That's a choice the user made, not something the game has forced them into.[/color]

Shimmers are the most beautiful sprites on dc, in my opinion.

 

Thus: I want to do lineages including them. Since they do not drop in cave, I had to settle on non-pure checkers and 3gs, so i'll have to make due with what I can scrape together. Rarity is rather hindering me there, and not at all a reason.

Edited February 12, 2014 by whitebaron

[Kavalier]

One has to take into account, though: Not everyone wants a 2G Shimmer/Tinsel.

 

Personally my game doesn't depend on me getting one, so really I could care less. I know many others who don't both about rare lineages either. Throughout this topic I've seen it brought up that it would takes a large quantity of time to give all the players on the game a 2G- while probably a portion of those players couldn't care less.

 

--EDIT: pardon if this has been brought up before : P

Edited February 12, 2014 by neoskyline

[Naruhina_94]

One has to take into account, though: Not everyone wants a 2G Shimmer/Tinsel.

 

Personally my game doesn't depend on me getting one, so really I could care less. I know many others who don't both about rare lineages either. Throughout this topic I've seen it brought up that it would takes a large quantity of time to give all the players on the game a 2G- while probably a portion of those players couldn't care less.

 

--EDIT: pardon if this has been brought up before : P

I have nothing against your view, if you are not interested on making some specific lineage it's perfectly good as long as you're happy!

There are many different atyle of playing, but I think that they shouldn't obstruct each other.

What I don't understand is why you don't want that CB prizes dragons could be used from those that actually care a lot about having them or not. How much this would change your game? I don't think so much, plus you could make more people happy. Even in the case (which I don't belive) that they are not the majiority.

 

If you are not against relasing the CB prizes than I'm sorry, I would have misunderstood what you wrote

Edited February 12, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[hazeh]

I'm not in favor of this. I like seeing new prize breeds every few years. I enjoy seeing the happiness of the people who are lucky enough to win.

 

I would like to see prize breeds put on a rotation. Tinsels should be retired to the HM slots as one of the options for people to pick from for a raffle. After that, they vanish. In their place as a prize should be a new western breed. In a few years, the Shimmers are retired to the HM slot and then vanish. In their place comes a new eastern breed. When the new western breed retires to the HM slots for that season, Tinsels can perhaps at that point be re-introduced, putting them into circulation again in what, 6-8 years or something like that? (thinking that far ahead is weird for some reason 0_o). That would maintain the specialness and rarity of the prize breeds, but not remove them entirely.

 

 

I like this suggestion the best. I don't mind them being HM prizes and then completely retired for a few years before being offered again as a raffle prize, but releasing the same prizes every year when there is absolute possibility for bright new wonderful prizes? Eeehh.

 

 

New dragons are good. New prizes are good. You were never promised 2nd gens from every CB prize (every single tinsel and shimmer I own was a gift from dear friends of mine, and my one 2nd gen shimmerkin was also a gift that someone else caught out of the AP). You were never promised the ability to make every possible lineage in the game with ease. I will never support any suggestion that sacrifices game growth for the sake of personal convenience.

 

I like how you phrased this, Odeen!

[egwenna]

Sorry, those aren't comparable. Those are actual medals for working hard and doing something that they accomplish.

 

Prizes are just that- prizes. Medals are not prizes, they are tokens for an achievement.

 

The more you have of one special thing, the more the individual special things lose value. It's simple economics. Medals don't, because they represent something else entirely.

Medals retain their value because the winners worked hard and earned them, while the prizes that you did nothing for don't retain their value when there are many of them. ... Therefore no one else should be able to win a prize of your breed, so your dragon's "specialness" (and your perceived wealth) is protected?? That seems incredibly petty to me.

 

Personally, I don't care, I like new dragons. We have very talented artists and I want to see what else they will come up with. Having the tinsels and shimmers move to HM status still gives the people who want a CB a chance to get them and increases the opportunities for people who want to build lineages with them.

 

Keeping the prizes we have for another year, growing the pool of them faster, helps players who are working on specific goals. I think there's value in both sides (keeping the same or introducing new) but the idea of protecting their rarity seems silly. Even if they are released another three years, the pool of tinsels and shimmers will still be incredibly small compared to the number of players.

 

More important than either side, is what will work best for the game as a whole. I don't envy TJ the task of balancing the desire of players chasing rare sprites with giving artists a chance to showcase new art and keep things fresh and exciting. For people playing a free game, we are a tough lot to please.

[Melisande]

i do not support this.

 

I think there should be new prize dragons... I mean there are so many great suggestions in the pending threads, and some of them would be great as prizes.

 

i think the prize model introduced this year is a good way to be able to expand for new prizes as well

 

 

this year we had 60 tinsle and 60 shimmer. next year we could easily keep the 120 of them as prizes and add a 3rd prize dragon, increasing the numbers each year which also means the prize base will grow with the player base as well.

[Fiona]

I dunno, maybe I'm alone in this, but I'd really like to see new prize breeds added every two years. Maybe after four years a breed could be added into the HM pool, I guess. I really think time is the only remedy for a lot of the issues people have with these raffles.

Not alone.

 

Also, Melisande, I don't think the public threads would be a source of new prize dragons. I can't see a publicly worked on sprite set being chosen for prizes. So far for both prize breeds part of the raffle for those years has been "never before seen".

[hazeh]

Medals retain their value because the winners worked hard and earned them, while the prizes that you did nothing for don't retain their value when there are many of them. ... Therefore no one else should be able to win a prize of your breed, so your dragon's "specialness" (and your perceived wealth) is protected?? That seems incredibly petty to me.

*shrugs* I don't see it as petty, but I see why it would be considered so.

Likewise it could be considered petty to reduce the value of someone's prize just because you want one of their offspring.

 

I'm protecting my prize. I want others to get their special prizes that are unique (or chosen by) them.

I don't see regurgitated prizes as all that special, which is why I disagree that they should be reused. Protecting the "specialness" of my prize is just the personal aspect to my disagreement.

 

 

[DarkEternity]

Medals retain their value because the winners worked hard and earned them, while the prizes that you did nothing for don't retain their value when there are many of them. ... Therefore no one else should be able to win a prize of your breed, so your dragon's "specialness" (and your perceived wealth) is protected?? That seems incredibly petty to me.

Like I said, human nature. Why stop at 1 CB metal when you have had the taste of say, 6? Or 1 ND, when you could have 5? Or 10 holidays, when you've had the taste of 21?

 

Ever heard the phrase - wealth corrupts absolutely? If you've had the taste of something better, an individual will always seek to hold onto what they have, to that betterness.

 

If you do not have, then you must settle for less or live in discontent, always seeking for more. But the point is, you settle for less because of necessity, not out of conscious frugality.

 

But if it is unrestrained, then perhaps it could remain frugal or cease to be frugal at all.

 

There is most definitely a material concern on the topic, on both sides. Pettiness. And now, reverse pettiness. Pettiness is not wrong in itself, but it is, as I say, a completely unavoidable aspect of human nature.

 

Not suprising.

Edited February 13, 2014 by DarkEternity

[grimace]

have every single prize be a new breed

 

I need more delicious drama to drink out of my non-euclidean sippy cup.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

have every single prize be a new breed

 

I need more delicious drama to drink out of my non-euclidean sippy cup.

Nah they should all be the same breed but every one is three swatches over on the color chart

[saltywench]

I think the main basic problem is that there is no possible way to get a prize dragon unless you are lightning strike lucky. If you want people to stop *ing, make it possible to EARN a prize dragon by playing the game, not just by being lucky. If it were up to me, I would tell everyone that when their scroll gets to 3,000 dragons, they can have a shimmer or a tinsel. Anyone that sticks around THAT LONG and participates that hard deserves a real prize, not just a trophy. If people have the chance to earn a rare CB, then they can't * that they will never ever get a chance. Also, it keeps them rare. It's damn hard to get 3,000.

[DarkEternity]

have every single prize be a new breed

 

I need more delicious drama to drink out of my non-euclidean sippy cup.

I'm surprised.

I'd have thought that stopping the raffle altogether would be more in line with some interests.

Especially since the existence of new prize winners altogether would perhaps conflict with the existence of previous prize winners. If the raffle is stopped, then not only would the exclusiveness of prize dragons be permanently guaranteed, but their value would be enhanced rather than reduced as time goes by and interest wanes in existing prize breeds.

 

/eyebrowwaggle

 

Quite ironically, Dragon Cave is the least dramatic out of all the games.

*coughflightrisingcough*

Edited February 13, 2014 by DarkEternity

[Odeen]

I think the main basic problem is that there is no possible way to get a prize dragon unless you are lightning strike lucky. If you want people to stop *ing, make it possible to EARN a prize dragon by playing the game, not just by being lucky. If it were up to me, I would tell everyone that when their scroll gets to 3,000 dragons, they can have a shimmer or a tinsel. Anyone that sticks around THAT LONG and participates that hard deserves a real prize, not just a trophy. If people have the chance to earn a rare CB, then they can't * that they will never ever get a chance. Also, it keeps them rare. It's damn hard to get 3,000.

The current method of winning a prize dragons is fair for all users. The method you suggest is unfairly skewed toward "hardcore" collectors and against casual players who are just around to have fun.

[DarkEternity]

The current method of winning a prize dragons is fair for all users. The method you suggest is unfairly skewed toward "hardcore" collectors and against casual players who are just around to have fun.

That unfair method, unfortunately, is also employed to give users significantly unfair advantages such as increased scroll space and gold/silver/bronze trophies.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2014 by DarkEternity