The (un)Official IOU Suggestion Thread

[Pokemonfan13]

But in real life IOUs are a part of trading! Joe makes a trade with Hank where Joe builds Hank a gazebo and Hank promises to plant Joe's garden come spring. Hank gives Joe an IOU because it isn't the time to do his part of the deal yet. So why would changing the title from "Trading" to something else make thing better?

 

It's not like it's called "Trading: The place for two-way teleports". The name is already extremely generic about what goes on inside.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[siliconrose]

But in real life IOUs are a part of trading! Joe makes a trade with Hank where Joe builds Hank a gazebo and Hank promises to plant Joe's garden come spring. Hank gives Joe an IOU because it isn't the time to do his part of the deal yet. So why would changing the title from "Trading" to something else make thing better?

 

It's not like it's called "Trading: The place for two-way teleports". The name is already extremely generic about what goes on inside.

It's also for gifting, which isn't really trading at all (except in that it's also done via teleport).

[StormWizard212]

I'm not sure how "IOUs are not an official part of the teleport action, which is what the Trading section is for" keeps coming off as "we are tired of people whining about IOUs gone wrong" or even "users don't understand that an IOU is not a guarantee". D:

 

But in any case, this thread is NOT for just saying the rule should be reversed. Please made sure you've read the OP.

 

EDIT: Which brings up the question of why we haven't (excuse me if I missed it) brought up changing the name/description of the trading section and therefore its function? Or something like that, maybe?

Not sure if this would just be too long and annoying, but maybe something like "Trading/Gifting Arrangements" so it could encompass the idea that you're arranging something, but it's not necessarily simultaneous.

 

I'm still struggling to think of an idea about this whole thing that I like though, to be honest. I'd be for a kind of in game page that tracks your existing IOUs, but so far, I think that's the only suggestion that I'm really comfortable with myself.

 

I'll keep thinking though. As a massive IOU trader, I'd love to be able to advertise in the trading forum and IRC, so I'm definitely keen on coming up with a solution, but I'm a bit stumped at the moment for additional ideas.

[Karobb]

Have we all forgotten until the advent of teleport, trading was not even a condoned part of the game, yet how long did the trading thread exist before that? I was not around when this IOU posting not being allowed was made, but am really curious as to what prompted it, as IOUs obviously were never a condoned part of DC?

[_Charky]

I don't know how controvertial or impossible it would be, but I've had a thought.

 

Instead of an IOU, persay, how about more like a long-term trade?

 

The person who HAS the egg, would set up something similar to teleport. when they accepted the IOU, the egg they have is taken and held in some kind of egg-y limbo. It remains in said egg-y limbo until the IOU-er could breed the egg. When they had, there would be some sort of system to check the egg was correct before sending. After a confirmation from both parties, the original egg would be removed from limbo and put on the IOU-er's scroll. the IOU egg would then be delivered to the IOU-ee's scroll as with a normal teleport.

 

There would be the chance to cancel the IOU at any time, and the egg would be removed from 'limbo' and placed back on the original scroll. Perhaps the egg could still retain a place on the scroll, however, but just not be visible on the scroll, as this would stop

A ) the iou-ee from locking themselves when it was tie for the egg to be returned, and

B ) people from using the option to hoard eggs for extended periods.

 

I think that also holiday eggs should not be allowed to be offered as an original egg, as they could remain in limbo until out of their season, if this was the case.

 

There could/would be options attached to this, such as the ability to cancel the trade after a certain time. The egg would be returned to the original owner if an IOU had not been bred within this time window.

 

 

I hope that makes sense, and doesn't cause too much uproar.

 

 

 

EDIT: I got a instead of a b ) . This is why I like sock's suggestion on the matter, but that's not related to this thread.

Edited January 24, 2013 by dracocharky

[Pokemonfan13]

So the person who wants the egg doesn't get it until they can pay off their end?

 

I honestly don't think that's fair. I've done IOU trades for tinsels where my end was 2nd gen metals, yes, multiple. It can take months, many months, to get metal eggs, even when you have a decent breeding pool. If you HAD that tinsel you might be able to use its babies to trade for a 2nd gen metal or two and help settle the IOU faster that way.

 

And what about IOUing hollies? I don't get my end of the deal until Christmas, almost a year away, just because it cannot breed until then? The person accepting my IOU knows that they have to wait for their egg, but they're still willing to trade and give me an egg now. [seriously, it would make trading a holly for a new prize dragon impossible because you wouldn't get your end of the deal until long after the point of trading for a new prize dragon right away was gone. You might as well set up the trade xmas eve]

 

And what about if getting your side together isn't completed before the other person goes inactive? [and yes, the other guy could go inactive a few weeks after arranging the trade] The way it is now at least one person is happy and they can try to discharge the IOU if the person ever comes back. With your suggestion their side of the trade [the pretty thing you desperately want] could and possibly would hang in limbo forever, and by the time they get back you've probably completed a trade with someone else for the same thing. And what happens if you DO manage to breed/get what they wanted in return while they're gone? Do you put it in the trade hoping they'll come back and accept or do you use it to trade with someone else? After all, the person could have permanently left DC!

 

 

TL;DR: the point of an IOU is "I get my side now and you get yours when I have what I owe you". Changing that makes a mess.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[_Charky]

So the person who wants the egg doesn't get it until they can pay off their end?

 

I honestly don't think that's fair.  I've done IOU trades for tinsels where my end was 2nd gen metals, yes, multiple.  It can take months, many months, to get metal eggs, even when you have a decent breeding pool.  If you HAD that tinsel you might be able to use its babies to trade for a 2nd gen metal or two and help settle the IOU faster that way.

 

And what about IOUing hollies?  I don't get my end of the deal until Christmas, almost a year away, just because it cannot breed until then?  The person accepting my IOU knows that they have to wait for their egg, but they're still willing to trade and give me an egg now.  [seriously, it would make trading a holly for a new prize dragon impossible because you wouldn't get your end of the deal until long after the point of trading for a new prize dragon right away was gone.  You might as well set up the trade xmas eve]

 

And what about if getting your side together isn't completed before the other person goes inactive?     [and yes, the other guy could go inactive a few weeks after arranging the trade]  The way it is now at least one person is happy and they can try to discharge the IOU if the person ever comes back.  With your suggestion their side of the trade [the pretty thing you desperately want] could and possibly would hang in limbo forever, and by the time they get back you've probably completed a trade with someone else for the same thing.  And what happens if you DO manage to breed/get what they wanted in return while they're gone?  Do you put it in the trade hoping they'll come back and accept or do you use it to trade with someone else?  After all, the person could have permanently left DC!

 

 

TL;DR: the point of an IOU is "I get my side now and you get yours when I have what I owe you".  Changing that makes a mess.

 

Hence option to cancel the trade and get a refund.

which is why I said "Instead of an IOU, persay, how about more like a long-term trade?"

 

 

Look. I never said my idea was PERFECT, I'm not some kind of genius, but it certainly provides a basis for development with a different way of looking at the thing, that stops people from running off with eggs and not providing their end of the deal. IOUs like Christmasses and trading something for for 4 cb metals are slightly extreme circumstances which need some working on to make it fit.

Edited January 24, 2013 by dracocharky

[Natayah]

EDIT: Which brings up the question of why we haven't (excuse me if I missed it) brought up changing the name/description of the trading section and therefore its function? Or something like that, maybe?

I don't know if this ties back in, or is more of a tangent, but it has been brought up before to re-name the Trading thread to Trading & Gifting since many of the threads do not allow trades but merely gifts.

I don't know if that has potential IOU impact or not, but it has been suggested before.

[Pokemonfan13]

So the person goes inactive. I cancel the trade and the precious egg I want dies on their scroll because they're not there to raise it. They come back and suddenly the trade that could have been working smoothly [i have the egg and am ready to try to make payments now that they're back] is completely off because they don't even have their end of the deal any more.

[_Charky]

So the person goes inactive. I cancel the trade and the precious egg I want dies on their scroll because they're not there to raise it. They come back and suddenly the trade that could have been working smoothly [i have the egg and am ready to try to make payments now that they're back] is completely off because they don't even have their end of the deal any more.

well, I'm not sure whether you're breeder or breed-ee in this scenario, but either

 

you proceed with the trade, and get the things you wanted in return for what you had, OR

you cancel the trade, and pretend like it never happened.

 

in neither of those scenarios is either person less well off than they were originally.

 

If you cancel the trade and then the person returns from inactivity, it's your problem that you canceled the trade. You should have waited to see if they came back.

once you've bred the egg to give the and sent it, the only thing keeping either of you waiting it them confirming that it's right. If they've gone inactive and told you so, you can wait until they're back to offer them your end of the IOU. If they've gone inactive and NOT told you so, you'll realise they didn't confirm the trade, cancel your half of the offer, and wait until they come back to try breeding for them again. in the meantime, you ca always try to find another offer.

[RainDear]

well, I'm not sure whether you're breeder or breed-ee in this scenario, but either

 

you proceed with the trade, and get the things you wanted in return for what you had, OR

you cancel the trade, and pretend like it never happened.

 

in neither of those scenarios is either person less well off than they were originally.

 

If you cancel the trade and then the person returns from inactivity, it's your problem that you canceled the trade. You should have waited to see if they came back.

once you've bred the egg to give the and sent it, the only thing keeping either of you waiting it them confirming that it's right. If they've gone inactive and told you so, you can wait until they're back to offer them your end of the IOU. If they've gone inactive and NOT told you so, you'll realise they didn't confirm the trade, cancel your half of the offer, and wait until they come back to try breeding for them again. in the meantime, you ca always try to find another offer.

We have had people return from inactivity after 1-3 years. Expecting someone to keep a trade active for over a year hoping seems a bit unreasonable. It may seem that neither trade partner is disadvantaged by your suggestion, but the way the DC economy changes it could inconvenience either or both partners in ways that can't be foreseen.

 

IRL, I have often had my sister call me to ask, "Can I borrow $xx.xx?" and after several months, the Christmas Season arrives and I call her to say, "Don't worry about that loan. We'll call it your Christmas present this year."

 

If a friend at work borrows money from me and then loses their job, I don't worry about them paying me back, I forget about it altogether.

 

Certainly I can't speak for anyone else, but this is pretty much the way I feel about my eggs on DC. I would rather the egg hatched, grew up, and is used on someone else's scroll than it be held in limbo. I prefer to consider it a gift, if the other person is unable for any reason to make their end of a deal.

 

If there is a way to make IOUs "official" on DC, I don't think this is it.

 

[_Charky]

We have had people return from inactivity after 1-3 years. Expecting someone to keep a trade active for over a year hoping seems a bit unreasonable. It may seem that neither trade partner is disadvantaged by your suggestion, but the way the DC economy changes it could inconvenience either or both partners in ways that can't be foreseen.

 

IRL, I have often had my sister call me to ask, "Can I borrow $xx.xx?" and after several months, the Christmas Season arrives and I call her to say, "Don't worry about that loan. We'll call it your Christmas present this year."

 

If a friend at work borrows money from me and then loses their job, I don't worry about them paying me back, I forget about it altogether.

 

Certainly I can't speak for anyone else, but this is pretty much the way I feel about my eggs on DC. I would rather the egg hatched, grew up, and is used on someone else's scroll than it be held in limbo. I prefer to consider it a gift, if the other person is unable for any reason to make their end of a deal.

 

If there is a way to make IOUs "official" on DC, I don't think this is it.

as previously said, this is nowhere near a finished idea, everything that people are picking fault with can be worked on and worked around, maybe with the addition of options.

[Pokemonfan13]

well, I'm not sure whether you're breeder or breed-ee in this scenario, but either

 

you proceed with the trade, and get the things you wanted in return for what you had, OR

you cancel the trade, and pretend like it never happened.

 

in neither of those scenarios is either person less well off than they were originally.

 

If you cancel the trade and then the person returns from inactivity, it's your problem that you canceled the trade. You should have waited to see if they came back.

once you've bred the egg to give the and sent it, the only thing keeping either of you waiting it them confirming that it's right. If they've gone inactive and told you so, you can wait until they're back to offer them your end of the IOU.  If they've gone inactive and NOT told you so, you'll realise they didn't confirm the trade, cancel your half of the offer, and wait until they come back to try breeding for them again. in the meantime, you ca always try to find another offer.

In the scenario I'm the person who owes. And actually, the person who accepted the IOU is definitely worse off.

 

Instead of a trade they have a dead egg. The best solution to the scenario is if the person who canceled the trade also puts the egg that was removed from limbo and put back on the inactive scroll in a hatchery, so they have an adult instead of a dead egg, but it's still something they wanted to trade, not keep.

 

With normal IOUs I have the egg I want and once they come back I can finish my end of the deal. Your scenario I either wait and trust that they will eventually come back when they could be gone forever or I call off the trade and the person who went inactive is screwed because they don't have a trade, but they also don't have the egg they were trying to trade.

 

And unless the person who goes inactive [i'm always assuming the inactive goer is the person who had the egg upfront since that's the person who is worst off going inactive] sends you a PM saying "School is a nightmare, I'm taking a 5 month break from DC" I expect most people would assume that the person is gone and move on. I had an IOU with someone who I literally thought was gone forever [over a year missing, no ahead of time warning] and they recently popped up. I gave up on them probably around month 6, and I would have definitely canceled the trade.

 

 

 

You say that the stuff that is being brought up can be worked on. If you think it can, fine. But to me they seem like fatal flaws. The biggest being how the person who had the egg upfront gets screwed if they go inactive and the other person cancels the trade. They have no trade, they have no egg to make a new trade because it either died or grew up on their scroll.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[RainDear]

I wonder:

 

If we had three categories of Teleport: Transfer (gift), Trade, and IOU- then:

 

If you had to tick and "accept" a box saying something like: "I recognize that IOUs are not enforceable and there is no recourse if the other party never delivers their part of the trade." for every IOU trade you make whether that might make the possibility for IOU trades to be "Official".

 

Perhaps IOU would have 2 parts one for initiating the trade and one for ending the trade.

 

Just dropping an idea into the pool. Sorry if this repeats someone else's idea.

[gistofeverything]

Poking this up from the dark depths of page 5.

[kerrikins]

I wonder:

 

If we had three categories of Teleport: Transfer (gift), Trade, and IOU- then:

 

If you had to tick and "accept" a box saying something like: "I recognize that IOUs are not enforceable and there is no recourse if the other party never delivers their part of the trade." for every IOU trade you make whether that might make the possibility for IOU trades to be "Official".

 

Perhaps IOU would have 2 parts one for initiating the trade and one for ending the trade.

 

Just dropping an idea into the pool. Sorry if this repeats someone else's idea.

I'm not sure this solves anything, because TJ's point was 'there is no in-game way to IOU'... The awareness of the fact that IOUs might not be fulfilled doesn't actually seem to be the problem, from what mods and other people have said in this thread.

[Fsaber]

It doesn't matter approve IOUs or not.

They exist, and would exist as long as teleport exist.

Nobody can stop that process.

There is no way to distinguish "simple teleport" from "IOU teleport".

The only thing is left - make unofficial trading zone on forum (i don't know why the forum engine is used to such purposes in 1st place, but that's a different story), assign a mods to keep them straight on-topic, and put a BIG RED BANNER:

1st rule: Use IOUs are only ON YOUR OWN RISK.

2nd rule: DC staff would not react and held any responsibility for any IOU involved trades.

3rd rule: if you still wish to claim your forward see rule â„–2

 

PS. If something can't be stopped just banning it from a forum is a head-in-the-sand policy.

[ulki]

What about to "implement" a system off trust and reputation?

 

You can officially include IOUs in teleports, accepting the risk (a warning)

 

They are recorded and presended on a site for the user to see. Who owns something to him/her and what he/she owns to others.

 

There is a link to set up a teleport for those things you own to others. If you go through this you can only offer in a one way trade, what you own the other person, and only to that person (show the offer in the active teleports/trades section off the other user)

 

On all things owed to you, you get the possibility to mark the IOU as fullfilled. And maybe a link to mark it as overdue...

 

And

 

Every scroll has a section off IOUs that have been made in the past. Stating what the person was owing, when this started and when it was fullfilled.

So as to all can see if the person is a relyable trading partner in respect to IOUs.

 

No reall binding is involved here, but not fullfilling IOUs will get you to the point where nobody will accept IOUs from you anymore, because your reputation is ruined. But there is a way to restore reputation in fullfilling IOUs in the future (that is if you finde someone willing to do so), because anyone can see that the unfullfilled IOUs are way back in the past and in the last year you have fullfilled them faithfully

 

What do you think?

[Fuzzbucket]

I think that that has already been shot down as no blacklisting OF ANY KIND is allowed here.

 

Someone the other day suggested a thread where we could post what we thought of our traders as long as the traders agreed to be listed - and no-one was OK with that either.

 

Typefail edit.

Edited March 26, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Shinobimasterz]

Did anyone suggest implementing an IOU-autobreed?

 

For example

I want to give an IOU for a new trade of an EGG1 and I give out an IOU of a specific breeding instance DRAG1(the breed wanted ie. silver/gold/tinsel)xDesiredMate(now, choice of mate: ie. specified mate/specified species - specified mate always breeds with the same dragon specifiend and specified species always breeds with the same species though if refused/no interest it moves on to next of that species + CB/lin. can be specified)

 

The mating would be fully automated, the breeding notification with a given option Breed/Reming me later would pop up when the user is online, has a free egg slot and a teleport available. The user would be prevented from breeding the dragon with other mates as long as the IOU is not fullfiled.

 

If bred and if produced, a pop-up window would go to the user that was given the IOU. He can then retrieve the egg

 

If the IOU given is for a hatchling, CB or Lineaged from a specific breeding pair from the users scroll should be available. The breeding procedure would be the same. The egg unabandonable though. When hatched, the same procedure would occur.

[ulki]

I think that that has already been shot down as no blacklisting OF ANY KIND is allowed here.

 

Someone the other day suggested a thread where we could post what we thought of our traders as long as the traders agreed to be listed - and no-one was OK with that either.

 

Typefail edit.

No blacklisting? Than I think IOUs can not be official part of this site.

 

All things restricting a person owing something to another in how they breed will be seen as to ... restrictiv for the gameplay.

And if I can not see how a user acted in the past I will not trust IOUs other than being very restrictiv for the gameplay of the other user...

 

I actually do not see any harm in listing a history off behavior with IOUs. But that is just me

[gistofeverything]

No blacklisting? Than I think IOUs can not be official part of this site.

 

All things restricting a person owing something to another in how they breed will be seen as to ... restrictiv for the gameplay.

And if I can not see how a user acted in the past I will not trust IOUs other than being very restrictiv for the gameplay of the other user...

 

I actually do not see any harm in listing a history off behavior with IOUs. But that is just me

Directly saying someone is bad is against the SD rules.

 

However, stating past history of IOUs and how long it took to complete them are not.

 

Discuss.

[Fsaber]

Pls. Stop asking any CODING - we got a definitely NO from TJ.

As for reputation system - i'm ok with that. But on 3rd-party side.

 

PS. If someone still thinks that some coding/support solves problems with IOUs - they are terribly wrong.

PPS.

Imagine the following situation:

I sold 10 futures for offsprings of some dragon. (yeah iou_system should control type of offspring)

Started breeding. Got a "right" offspring.

Suddenly very_very_very interesting trade appears like once_in_lifetime that would require me to sell that fresh egg. If some "protective system" is coded - i simply can't put the waiting list on more longer wait and sell that egg.

So, as a breeder, i'm at disadvantage. Typical IOU doesn't involve any strict time-limit to be fulfilled.

So what typical breeder going to do? Create off-site webpage with his own IOU list. And using dc mechanics only to transfer dragons.

What we get in the end? We are nowhere near to working iou_subsystem, we are at the same place where we started. Implemented IOU subsystem not used and evaded.

Who would deal with me outside the iou_subsystem? Well, anyone who wants get a dragon from me. Imagine that i'm a raffle winner. And choose not to use iou_subsystem. If you're strictly dealing only through iou_subsystem - you'll never get a 2G offspring. NEVER.

And believe me, there would be a ton of players who evades iou_subsystem "just in case" because she is resrictive from the start.

 

PPPS. I don't get it. There only a couple of countries in a world who are "showing off themselves" by ignoring market rules. And yet, i get the feeling that only a couple of topic posters knows "how the things works". Me, who was rised in communistic USSR now writing a post with samples of "how free market works" to a citizens of capitalist countries? If someone told me that in '80s - i'll be laughing out loud.

 

PPPPS. Sorry for overreact. Maybe better to call it "naive". and yeah, real market rules aren't born to us with mother's milk )) But at least think before: if something you propose is not only

"hey, why not use that?" but "hey, you must use that and obey to use only that" - think it twice, maybe more. Try to get in the shoes of your opponents - that pretty much eliminates 80% of request/suggestions that was done "on a spur of a moment".

Edited March 26, 2013 by Fsaber

[ulki]

Directly saying someone is bad is against the SD rules.

 

However, stating past history of IOUs and how long it took to complete them are not.

 

Discuss.

Blacklisting is something different from an IOU History generated by the cave I think.

 

(and blacklisting is forbidden for a reason)

 

So my idea does not involve restricting all eggs that could fullfill the IOU to do so. You could make the "once in a livetime" trade if you want to.

 

I do see problems with a reputation system on another page. Who would host it, will it stay as long as the cave does? Is it garanteed that the user names corespond with the scroll in question? And so on.

If we want to make IOUs officially part of the game, the tools to handel them need to be part off the cave. At least this is my expirience.

 

A reputation system would list only "historical" facts about IOUs happend in the past. And no opinions off users. It would be not possible to trash a reputation activly, except my own (in not fullfilling IOUs). So it will not fall under the definition off blacklisting (which includes, for example, me posting a name off a user in my profile naming him/her as a terrible trade partner).

 

It would not restrict my style off game, I can still breed as I desire (waiting to breed until my trade partner has time to take the egg, with no ill effects for me), trade in between if I wish too, and even drop IOUs owned to me, if I see fit. (Over the link provided on the list off IOUs I own and are owed to me).

 

I would see this as a possible solution, not to restrictiv, but save enough.

[skauble]

I'll admit up front that I'm not in favor of a lot of the ideas that have been tossed here. They are very creative (a lot more than I could be), so kudos to everyone, but many of them seem rather complex and there seems like a lot of ways that things can go wrong and kind of nullify the point of the system.

 

Of course, maybe those wrinkles can be ironed out, but I've noticed that, even though I'm not in love with the current way we're doing things, IOUs are still roaring along. Just look at the myriad of Shimmer lists everyone's keeping.

 

PPPS. I don't get it. There only a couple of countries in a world who are "showing off themselves" by ignoring market rules. And yet, i get the feeling that only a couple of topic posters knows "how the things works". Me, who was rised in communistic USSR now writing a post with samples of "how free market works" to a citizens of capitalist countries? If someone told me that in '80s - i'll be laughing out loud.

 

PPPPS. Sorry for overreact. Maybe better to call it "naive". and yeah, real market rules aren't born to us with mother's milk )) But at least think before: if something you propose is not only

"hey, why not use that?" but "hey, you must use that and obey to use only that" - think it twice, maybe more. Try to get in the shoes of your opponents - that pretty much eliminates 80% of request/suggestions that was done "on a spur of a moment".

 

But this isn't about the free market at all.

 

The site doesn't need a way to force every player to use an official IOU system. DC just needs to be able to offer one before they can allow IOUs in officially.

 

If people want to go outside that system then they will. And if players want to take that risk with them than they can. No one is trying to force people not to accept IOUs if they feel like it or it's the only way to get a 2nd gen prize offspring - that's why were still allowed to mention IOUs in unofficial places like our sigs and profiles.

 

What this is about it the site's position that they aren't officially endorsing a service that they can't provide. Trading dragon for dragon is something that the site can do. Sending someone a one way dragon is something that the site can do. But offering a guarantee on future promises and potential breedings/catching is something that the site can't quite figure out how to do.

 

That's the issue. It's not about making people use an IOU system. It's not about how the free market works. It's about a player being able to say, "I can officially state that I will, in the future, give you X" while having absolutely no way for the game to support that claim.