The (un)Official IOU Suggestion Thread

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The forum could be set to autocorrect "IOU" into "IOU (I recognize that these are not an official part of the game and I agree to assume all associated risks in the event it is not fulfilled)" or something similar - that way anyone running across the term for the first time would also know that it's not officially sanctioned by the game, they take it on at their own risk.  But as long as the person offering is willing to assume the risks, and RECOGNIZES that if the IOU is unfulfilled that there's nothing that can be done (and I think the autocorrect would ensure that), I see no reason why it shouldn't be offered.

I agree with this entirely. If it's made blindingly clear that IOUs aren't official and can't be enforced (and I think that such an auto-correct WOULD make that blindingly clear), then anyone who still throws a fuss to a mod about IOUs not being fulfilled has every right to be given a copy-paste 'please read the rules' answer and ignored afterwards. People who understand the risks of IOUs should not be penalized because of whiners who can't be bothered to read the rules.

 

I also agree that people should only be able to state that they accept IOUs rather than the other way around (which is how things used to be, right?), if for no other reason then to prevent massive cluttering of the trading threads by people offering things they don't actually have, haha. Holiday offers should be exempt, though--at the very least within a month of their breeding season.

Edited January 11, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd like to SEE that BSA idea - it seems not to be in this thread any more ? How would it work ?

[Pokemonfan13]

I agree with this entirely. If it's made blindingly clear that IOUs aren't official and can't be enforced (and I think that such an auto-correct WOULD make that blindingly clear), then anyone who still throws a fuss to a mod about IOUs not being fulfilled has every right to be given a copy-paste 'please read the rules' answer and ignored afterwards. People who understand the risks of IOUs should not be penalized because of whiners who can't be bothered to read the rules.

 

I also agree that people should only be able to state that they accept IOUs rather than the other way around (which is how things used to be, right?), if for no other reason then to prevent massive cluttering of the trading threads by people offering things they don't actually have, haha. Holiday offers should be exempt, though--at the very least within a month of their breeding season.

At least in the trading threads I frequented, a "have IOU of ___, want ____" post already wasn't allowed, only "Have ____, want ____, IOUs accepted"

[Obscure_Trash]

I'd like to SEE that BSA idea - it seems not to be in this thread any more ? How would it work ?

There wasn't really a specific idea, more of wondering if it could be a BSA. The post on page one about the daydreams was as specific as it got, IIRC.

 

If it's made blindingly clear that IOUs aren't official and can't be enforced (and I think that such an auto-correct WOULD make that blindingly clear), then anyone who still throws a fuss to a mod about IOUs not being fulfilled has every right to be given a copy-paste 'please read the rules' answer and ignored afterwards.

 

That's not why IOUs were disallowed, which is why that's not the issue in question.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That's not why IOUs were disallowed, which is why that's not the issue in question.

I've heard so many reasons that they were disallowed that I don't know which is true anymore. First it was that too many people were complaining, then it was that it wasn't official and the forums didn't want people to assume it was official, then it was that nothing non-official could be allowed on the forums. Having all IOUs be converted into not official warnings fixes problems 1 and 2, and I still don't really think number 3 is a valid thing that needs to be addressed, seeing as non-official things like 'collect commons, get rares in the future as a reward' threads are allowed.

Edited January 11, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Kith]

I would definitely welcome something to help keep track, even if it's just a set of two lists (one each for incoming and outgoing) with the scroll name, color of egg, and a dropdown box or short note field for the generation, pairing, and/or other details. If there was also a way to access a list of fulfilled ones, that would be helpful in assessing a given user's trustworthiness in regards to future transactions.

 

If necessary, the "incoming" lists (pending and fulfilled) could be made to only be viewed by the scroll owner and the "outgoing" lists by everybody, so that people would be able to see what someone has currently promised, and fulfilled in the past, without using the other information to bother that person's IOU partners for similar eggs.

[Pokemonfan13]

I'd say at least an official IOU list, since it would mean that people can't just forget what they owe. And set it up so that you can make a list for each dragon, like I have an IOU list for common babies from my CB holly, and if I can't set that up with the IOU list it won't be very useful.

 

Anything above and beyond that is great, but the very least should be an official IOU [owed to others and owed to you] list.

[cyradis4]

For myself, I feel that having anything in DragonCave itself to *force* compliance is not the way to go, because any such system would require lots of programing, be prone to glitches, and I personally feel TJ could put his time to better use. However, a note taking BSA might be feasible?

 

 

 

 

Now a BSA (possibly Nilias? Quote for Nilia's description:

Nilia Pygmies reside mostly in mountainous regions, tending to live in large flocks. They are a curious, hyperactive breed; their curiosity often gets them into dangerous situations. Despite this, they are wary around other dragons and animals outside their breed. They are naturally shy and seek their own kind for companionship. Once the trust of a Nilia dragon is earned, they are highly loyal critters, sometimes to the point of being annoying.

 

They are curious and always around you, so maybe they can "make notes" on trades of yours? Say...

"After a long discussion and a trade agreement with a fellow human, you happily tell the Nilia closest to you of the good fortune. The Nila, also being excited, writes down the agreement and gives a copy to your trading partner. Then, when you both get home, writes the trade agreement on the wall of the cave, so all around know what will be happening"

 

Then, under that, could be a simple form:

IOU Trade

With: _________

When Agreement Made: _______ (must be a date)

You're end of the Agreement: _____________

Have you given? ____ (check box)

Your Trading Partner's end of the Agreement: __________

Have they Given? ___ (check box)

Eggs You've Given: (links / lists the eggs you've sent to your trading partner)

Eggs You've Received: (links / lists the eggs you've gotten from your trading partner)

Notes: __________________________________________

 

 

This is sent to your trading partner's scroll, and they can accept / decline / modify until you both reach an agreement. The IOU agreement is then saved, and you can access it whenever you want. And it's there, in the cave, so it can't get lost. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen in people's signatures, "I had a computer virus / crash / other misshap and I know I owe someone an egg, but I can't find any record of it PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pm me!". And both IOU partners can see the same form, and can leave messages for each other in the Notes section. For instance, I recently completed an IOU for an Ice from a specific pair. I bred ever week, and got refusals and no eggs, and it would have been nice to have a place where I could put that information that my trading partner could see without having to spam their in-box with an update. For myself, I would love to have a place an IOU partner owing me something could put updates without PM'ing me. That way, I'd always have the update and could see it when I wanted, rather than have it fill up the (limited) space in my in-box.

 

Add in a "Mark Complete" feature as well. Say, when you mark it as complete, your trading partner has to do the same. Then the note turns green and moves into, say, the "completed IOU section" and is out of sight. If you mark it complete and your trading partner says you didn't complete it, it stays "active", and visible. If your trading partner goes inactive, lets say doesn't log in for a month, it grays out and says something like, "Your trading partner seems to have vanished, and your Nilias have sadly covered up the trade on the cave wall." When they come back, the IOU would turn black again and could have something like, "Your Nilias have managed to contact your trading partner again, and in joy have un-covered the previous trade agreement".

 

Also, if you're going to go fancy.... Go fancy! In the Teleport, give a 3rd option: IOU Trade. If you select that, then you put your egg in the teleport. At that point, a huge warning in red pops up, warning the user that IOUs are not enforceable by the Admin / MODs and there is no gaurentee their trading partners will ever give them anything back. If the person says, yes they understand, it'd put the egg in a teleport and open up the Nilia dialog box above, let you fill it out everything but the "With", and then you'd give your IOU trading partner that teleport. When they agree to it, their username would be put in the "With" field. To make things even easier to keep track of, the egg you've just sent would be linked to in the "Eggs You've Given" field. And your partner could then go to the trade agreement, and use it to send you their part of the bargain, and then what they've sent to you would appear in the "Received" area.

 

And might as well go whole hog, and suggest a final refinement. Add a 4th option to teleport: IOU Trade Fulfillment. If you select this, it will then let you select the Nilia cared for IOU note it's in reply to, and the egg would be shown in both user's notes.

 

The last two parts would be great... I remember one memorable IOU, where me and the other user were swapping lots of specific and special lineaged eggs for CB hatchlings, and the IOU grew with time as more special eggs and hatchlings were added to it. Toward the end, recordkeeping broke down a little and my trading partner insisted on giving me hatchlings I was positive she didn't really owe me. She insisted, and I decided not to make an issue of it.

 

 

 

 

I'm of two minds of making this sort of action visible to others. Basically, it could be used as a feedback system if part of the trade or it's statistics were made visible. For example, if it was made visible to those in general:

IOU Statistics

Number of successfully completed IOUs: (lists the number of IOUs the user has completed, ie, both trade partners marked as complete)

Number of IOUs In Progress:

Number of IOUs with Inactive Players:

Number of IOUs Failed to Meet:

 

I'm not really feeling like that would be a good idea, because there is no way to guarantee that one of the partners hasn't lied when checking Completed / Failed to Complete. In addition, if someone unscrupulous wanted to, they could in theory use friends (or multi-scrolls) to give themselves "good" feedback, letting them scam others.

 

I'm against letting other people see the actual trades you've completed, unless there was some sort of opt-out and who you traded with was blacked out unless both users agreed to have it visible. There's a few IOUs I've done that were *not* at the "going rate" for those dragons but were done the way they were for other reasons that were nobody else's business and I for one can and will bite people who beg / harass me (and enjoy every bite of it!) but there are those who are not as belligerent as I am and that sort of thing really upsets them / guilts them.

 

 

Wow... That was like a novel! Sorry bout that, the ideas just kept poring out! Kudoes to all who managed to read it all, and sorry if I'm not entirely coherent in places it's been a long day.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I also agree that we should not allow anyone making an IOU of something they do not yet have (besides holidays which can be permitted during their breeding period window).

emphasis mine

 

I'm curious about the wording of this reply. If you can't offer something you don't yet have, doesn't that eliminate offering an IOU? An IOU is specifically offering something you don't currently have available.. so if you already have the item in question on your scroll, why would you offer an IOU in the first place?

 

Back on topic.. I've tried and tried to think of something that would be non-binding, reversible and easy to code.. and I can't think of a single thing. I'm too cynical to expect 'everyone' to adhere to an 'honor system', and can't see how an honor system would be enough to make IOUs official. If I had to accept an IOU based solely on the honor system, I would not accept one in the first place... unless it was someone I knew really, really well.

 

Anything less than something that actually binds the person offering an IOU to complete the deal, is not good enough for me. Sorry folks, but I've been burned too many times to trust that easily. If it's not binding, I consider it pretty much worthless.

 

Good luck with your continuing discussion.. I just can't see it having any effect.. not with the statement TJ made.. he didn't leave enough wiggle-room to work with.

 

Posted updated with your edit. Guessing that darn forum lag attacked and caused an accidental double post.

Edited January 11, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Pokemonfan13]

I'm not sure of the meaning of that sentence either. I do see a distinct difference between, say, offering an IOU of a 2nd gen gold when you do not have any CB metals on your scroll and offering an IOU of a 2nd gen gold when you have at least one CB gold. The former you would have to trade for a 2nd gen gold, the latter all it takes is patience and you'll have one eventually.

[siliconrose]

I mean, there's always a simple registry.

 

Current IOUs (with confirmation on both sides):

 

I owe this person this.

 

Past IOUs:

 

I owed this person this.

I owed this person this.

I owed (inactive player) this, but it has been more than six months.

 

People could make their own decisions based on completion rate and outstanding IOU values and such.

[schmupti]

This is sent to your trading partner's scroll, and they can accept / decline / modify until you both reach an agreement. The IOU agreement is then saved, and you can access it whenever you want. And it's there, in the cave, so it can't get lost. [...] And both IOU partners can see the same form, and can leave messages for each other in the Notes section.  [...] Add in a "Mark Complete" feature as well. Say, when you mark it as complete, your trading partner has to do the same. Then the note turns green and moves into, say, the "completed IOU section" and is out of sight. If you mark it complete and your trading partner says you didn't complete it, it stays "active", and visible...

Pardon my liberal snipping here.

 

Whether it's a BSA or a sub-action under Teleport, I like this idea: not just an IOU list on DC, but each IOU an item on the list easily accessed by both parties (e.g. so you can note an attempt to fulfill the IOU that bred wrong, without relying on the other person being on the forums/receiving PMs).

 

Perhaps the 'mark complete' option could be part of a reputation system. A few outstanding IOUs would be no big deal, but if you had too many unfulfilled IOUs, you'd be marked as a risky trade partner, while good trading partners would be rewarded with a good grade/score/whatnot.

 

On the pro side, it doesn't force anyone to breed or hunt differently, or put barriers on their play style--people could still trade freely, 'bad credit' and all, with anyone willing.

 

On the con side, as eBay and Etsy show, reputation systems can be gamed, and Bob only knows how hard it would be to implement.

Edited January 11, 2013 by schmupti

[HeatherMarie]

This sort of "lock in" (-edit for clarity- forced breeding to pay an IOU) is not something I'm willing to implement. I'm not going to prevent users from breeding dragons how they want and/or killing their dragons until they satisfy some sort of debt.

 

There's only two ways it can go. If there's no way to reverse it, people will complain to me to undo it ("The person's not even playing anymore"/"they're always locked"/"I choose the wrong pair" or on the other end "They bred specifically when I said I wasn't on so that the 48 hours would expire, now I get no IOU"/"They refuse to breed the pair now"). Otherwise, if it isn't enforced, then nothing changes and the system is useless.

 

TJ's quote, relevant lines bolded. First, how can an in-cave teleport-type IOU be "reversed"? Once again, I don't see how that's difficult. There could be a checkbox on the specific IOU, and if BOTH users agree to terminate the IOU-trade, they both check that box, and the IOU-promise is "reversed". Or even, if the person waiting for the IOU decides they just don't care enough to wait any longer, they can click that checkbox to reverse the IOU. Of course, the person OWING the IOU should not be allowed to "reverse" it without the other user's agreement. (or is this not what TJ meant by reverse?)

 

And I have to disagree with his last sentence. IOUs weren't enforced when they were allowed on the forums, and sure there was some drama now and then, but MANY people benefited from IOUs and ended up with nicely completed trades. *raises hand* I did. I really DON'T think IOUs are "useless" just because they aren't enforced. And I think being able to have it an official part of the game, to keep track of who you owe what to, how long it's been, and just *have* it there, will be beneficial regardless of the random IOU-fallthroughs.

 

[Pixxelation]

Here's an idea:

 

On teleport, under the offers, is the ability to offer an IOU. You select a male, female, and which gender's egg you owe. Under IOU is a CB IOU thing where you choose the breed you owe.

 

On your scroll, there is a quill and ink badge, and when anyone clicks it, it shows a list of what you owe, and to whom, as well as who owes you what. It shows the username or, in itallics, anonymous. When accepting an IOU, you can choose to appear anonymous or have your name visible on the person's list.

 

 

 

 

Would this be a way to make IOUs officially part of the game without them being binding?

[arlymaye]

I'm curious about the wording of this reply. If you can't offer something you don't yet have, doesn't that eliminate offering an IOU? An IOU is specifically offering something you don't currently have available.. so if you already have the item in question on your scroll, why would you offer an IOU in the first place?

 

 

  I'm not sure of the meaning of that sentence either. I do see a distinct difference between, say, offering an IOU of a 2nd gen gold when you do not have any CB metals on your scroll and offering an IOU of a 2nd gen gold when you have at least one CB gold. The former you would have to trade for a 2nd gen gold, the latter all it takes is patience and you'll have one eventually.

 

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant to convey was the type of posting in trades asking for XYZ but in return, they will catch/breed whatever you desire. So it's a *I don't have it yet* but if you are willing to take MY IOU kinda offers. Hope this is less confusing....

Edited January 12, 2013 by arlymaye

[HeatherMarie]

Personally I don't think IOUs of an "I will catch" nature should be allowed, regardless of how else this suggestion thread works out. I've gone over a year without catching a metallic, I don't think I've EVER caught a CB metallic, and even papers and dinos can take months to catch. "I will breed" can at least show "yes, I have these specific dragons, and I will attempt breeding an egg for you", but "I will catch" is sort of like promising an offspring of a raffle-dragon when you don't know if you've won yet. Or something like that.

[siliconrose]

Personally I don't think IOUs of an "I will catch" nature should be allowed, regardless of how else this suggestion thread works out. I've gone over a year without catching a metallic, I don't think I've EVER caught a CB metallic, and even papers and dinos can take months to catch. "I will breed" can at least show "yes, I have these specific dragons, and I will attempt breeding an egg for you", but "I will catch" is sort of like promising an offspring of a raffle-dragon when you don't know if you've won yet. Or something like that.

I IOUed two olives, two brimstones and four blusangs to someone, all CB. I got all of the blusangs by trading. Honestly, I'd almost argue that an IOU of CBs is more likely to be completed than an IOU of offspring.

[Pokemonfan13]

Yes, "I will catch" IOUs are pretty bad, unless they have a crazy track record. However, if the person said "I will catch a CB black" or something and can't manage it, there's always the fallback of trading for the CB black. I once had an IOU for 20 CB blacks and never even tried to catch a single one, I traded for all of them [although not really, since I got into a rather amusing trading circle where the person I owed CB blacks to owed CB blacks the person I was getting my CB blacks from. x3 We arranged an IOU cancellation since otherwise the same eggs would keep going in circles.]

 

If we want to get controlling in the forum, then only "I will breed" [when they have everything needed already on their scroll] and "I will hatch __ number of ___ common" IOUs should be publicly allowed, since those are the surest. [The common hatchlings only takes time and egg slots, since the dragons involved are easy to get] "I will catch" and "I will trade for" are much less sure because it involves things that are difficult to get that you do not have.

 

However, I'm not sure that's necessary. Theoretically someone offering an IOU CB black either is confident that they can catch one because they catch them frequently or that they can trade for one because they have trade fodder that the person they are currently trading with won't accept but is equal to or more valuable than a CB black.

[HeatherMarie]

Maybe an "I will catch" can only be done if the person already has that type of dragon on their scroll, thereby showing that they *can* catch it? Like, if the IOU is an "I will catch a CB gold" but the person's scroll shows that they've never caught a CB gold, it's much less likely that they are able to uphold their end of the deal.

[Pokemonfan13]

I have 7 CB golds, but have only ever caught one, and that was very early and at a time when they were unusually common. Having a dragon is no guarantee of being able to catch it.

[arlymaye]

I cannot begin to even imagine all the *I will (fill in the blank) * posts flooding the trading threads should this kind of IOU is permissible. *Shudder*

[HeatherMarie]

I cannot begin to even imagine all the *I will (fill in the blank) * posts flooding the trading threads should this kind of IOU is permissible. *Shudder*

"I will trade for a 2nd-gen Gold Tinsel" as an IOU.

"I will catch a CB silver, then breed it with (this CB, already on scroll)" as an IOU.

 

.... I really do support an official in-cave IOU system, but there has to be *some* limits on the types of IOUs you can do.

[Pokemonfan13]

Like I said, at least in the threads I frequented, "Have ___ IOU" posts were always banned. And I think they should stay banned. But "Have ____ now, want _____, IOUs accepted" should be fine.

 

The only one that might be acceptable to post would be "Will hatch common eggs", since it is extremely easy to fulfill.

[blackdragon71]

I have 7 CB golds, but have only ever caught one, and that was very early and at a time when they were unusually common.  Having a dragon is no guarantee of being able to catch it.

Nor is it a guarantee of being able to breed something from it for an IOU, either. "Breed-only" IOUs would thus also be rather hard to sustain, because metallics, rares, etc. only breed their particular type when/if they want to. And no sooner does one make a promise of offspring from their precious rare, than the breeding dries up. (Why yes, I AM looking at you, oh !@#$%^&*! rares and such of mine. ) Happens with uncommons, too. Look what just happened with tinsels, not too long ago.

 

Silly me traded a CB silver that I actually caught for a 2-3 tinsel and I have yet to see that tinsel, because the tinsels stopped giving eggs, except a common or two here and there. I'd like to hope that the person who promised me their tinsel in return for my silver will get the egg owed to me as the tinsels are starting to slowly drop their own breed again, simply because I want to believe they've been having bad luck too. I know it's been hard to whittle down my own IOU list, and I have dragons owed to folks that are no longer around, or I've owed for a year or better.

 

The upshot of all that wind I just spewed is that there just doesn't seem to be a good way other than sending out really big guys in expensive Italian suits with baseball bats to enforce the IOU system. There are people, even if it were made a BSA feature, that would never use it because they have no honor (see my previous post). How would TJ even be able to code the idea that Player A gets Player X's first metallic egg because Player A was nice enough to accept Player X's word that they'd be able to breed it? That would require 1) TJ to read EVERY SINGLE POST in the trades, and 2) Player X's integrity and honesty. Option number 1 means TJ'd never get any work done (like the rest of us), and 2 cannot be dictated.

 

What TJ might could do to alleviate the situation, but then this gets into that old ratio argument, is let rares and other dragons breed more often and get the breed they are (if mated to something other than a rare). But then, they would no longer be rares, and then they lose their value in trade, and thus make IOUs probably not even needed any longer.

Edited January 12, 2013 by blackdragon71

[Pokemonfan13]

An enforced/official IOU system would be through the teleports, not the forums. Anything that isn't programmed into the DC site would indeed be unwieldy at best, and most likely completely unworkable.

 

Basically as a return you put CB ___ or x number of CB/bred hatchlings or two parents and the type of egg or if they don't care which of your blacks produces the PB black egg a "CB black 1" and "CB black 2", etc. Then that is your offer for the trade and if they accept it it is an official IOU. And if the person who made the trade did the same, you just traded an IOU for an IOU. x3

 

Something like this would work for the non-enforced version that just gives you a list of your IOUs, and maybe at most lets you and your trading partner know that an IOU payment egg has entered your scroll.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Pokemonfan13