The (un)Official IOU Suggestion Thread

[gistofeverything]

IOUs are a touchy subject. This is understandable. In my four years on these forums, this is the biggest scandal I've seen since the Frill disappearance. Keeping this in mind, Sock has issued the following warning:

 

Warning from Sock: this thread is purely for discussion on how to make IOUs workable on the site so they can be allowed on DCF in the trading section. Any users who take the opportunity to post their dis/agreement with the 'no IOUs' rule will be warned and their post removed. We understand that some of you disagree. Let's find a fix or a compromise. Simply striking out the rule or not understanding our reasoning is not a compromise.

 

Our one admin response to this matter (note that he did not close the thread, which means that he is still willing to implement a plausible solution):

This sort of "lock in" (-edit for clarity- forced breeding to pay an IOU) is not something I'm willing to implement. I'm not going to prevent users from breeding dragons how they want and/or killing their dragons until they satisfy some sort of debt.

 

There's only two ways it can go. If there's no way to reverse it, people will complain to me to undo it ("The person's not even playing anymore"/"they're always locked"/"I choose the wrong pair" or on the other end "They bred specifically when I said I wasn't on so that the 48 hours would expire, now I get no IOU"/"They refuse to breed the pair now"). Otherwise, if it isn't enforced, then nothing changes and the system is useless.

 

Something we need to get straight right now:

 

The issue is that it's not an official part of the game (yet), so it doesn't belong on the official forums. That's the point we either have to argue against (probably a bad idea) or fix.

 

What would be a way we could make IOU's an official part of the game?

Keep in mind that these solutions cannot be binding in any way.

 

The reason why it was banned in the first place, for those of you who are still wondering:

 

That does nothing to show the warning to people simply offering IOUs.

 

IOUs are not a part of the game and are therefore, at this time, not allowed in threads. We are 'tolerating' IOUs in signatures.

 

It's rather harsh to warn someone for contacting us about an IOU gone wrong. Since they are not a part of the game, there's nothing we can do, but people don't deserve warnings for asking a question.

We did not ban IOUs on trading threads because we were tired of modding or listening to users or whatever. IOUs are simply not a part of the game so at this time are not allowed in trading threads. The trading section is for official use of the teleport function. Some threads about the AP, another official part of the game, and departure notices are allowed. Allowing users to post IOUs there gives the impression that IOUs are an official part of teleport, but when you use one way trading, there is no way to guarantee any action on the accepting side of the teleport besides accepting or not accepting the offer, so IOUs can't be a part of the game at this time.

 

Mod answers to popular theories of why it was closed:

 

Just to re-iterate, since I spoke too much:

-IOUs weren't banned because users whined when they went wrong.

-IOUs aren't an official part of the game, so allowing them in an official forum section doesn't make sense.

-IOUs are allowed in signatures because that says nothing about them being an official part of the game or not.

-There's no reason to warn users when they ask a mod about when an IOU went wrong. Even if we did warn users for much, it doesn't change that this isn't why we banned IOUs and does nothing to resolve the 'problem' of IOUs not being game supported.

 

Some points to consider when looking on this topic:

 

The biggest issue I see that needs to be addressed is the TYPE of IOU in question. I don't see anything wrong with ASKING for an IOU in a trade... but OFFERING an IOU should be a big NO NO.

 

Asking means you accept the risk and understand that you may receive nothing.

Offering means you have nothing and are begging for something.

Example - HAVE: cb gold - WANT: offers; IOUs acceptable - should be OK

Example2 - HAVE: IOU for cb gold - WANT: neglected hatchling - is what should be banned.

 

 

While I myself don't trade much, any time I see IOU I get nervous.. and I'll only accept or offer an IOU to someone I know, and/or have traded with before.

 

Someone, I can't remember who, had come up with a really great way for IOUs to be implemented in the game. Basically what it would do is ensure that the first fitting offspring produced from a pair would be instantly delivered to the person to whom the IOU was made. Here's an example.

 

1. Someone has a lovely 2nd gen Gold set up for trading. You own a CB Silver, and decide to offer a 2nd gen Silver IOU in exchange for that Gold.

 

2. When you go to offer on the trade, there is a new option in addition to the eggs/hatchlings you have to offer: namely, Offer IOU from Single Dragon or Offer IOU from Paired Dragons.

 

3. Selecting the Offer IOU from Single Dragon option brings you to a list of all the dragons on your scroll. You select a dragon and the type of offspring it would produce (in this case, you'd select your CB Silver and select the only option that a CB Silver can produce - another Silver. This differs from things like Waters which would have hybrids such as Blunas included). Once you offer this, the person making the trade sees your IOU offer. The Offer IOU from Paired Dragons option is similar except that you propose a pair of dragons from which offspring would come (ie, ensuring your CB Silver bred with a certain mate to produce a 2nd gen Silver). You could select either a single specific lineaged mate or an entire breed, with any CB mate of that type working. The system would check beforehand to make sure they wouldn't refuse, and then you could offer.

 

4. You can make up to four IOUs on a trade. These can be mixed in with egg or hatchling offers, with no more than four items total offered.

 

5. As soon as your dragon produces the owed item, it is transported to the other person's scroll, and a message appears announcing to that player that the IOU from user X has been completed. If the other player is locked, they get an announcement on their scroll that an IOU is pending and will expire if they do not pick up the item within 48 hours.

 

Some problems to this system is how things like Alt Blacks and Alt Vines would work, since you can't identify them at the egg stage (perhaps the eggs would be 'glued' to your scroll until they hatched in those cases, and upon hatching alt would immediately transfer?). Also, this system doesn't let you offer CB IOUs, but perhaps there's a solution to that as well; there could be a drop-down system showing all the breeds. You pick one, and that offer is shown as a CB whatever IOU offer. Upon a CB of that breed ever arriving on your scroll, it's instantly sent to the other person.*

 

One major problem with this is that people might never breed the dragon/pair in question--but doing so means they cripple themselves in the process. If someone tries to cheat you out of a 2nd gen Silver, then they can never breed a 2nd gen Silver for themselves from that Silver, either. It'd be easier for people to try to skirt around breeding a certain pair, though, so people would have to be a bit cautious with taking such a specific IOU offer...

 

*This, too, would be a riskier aspect of IOU trading, as people could offer things like CB Golds and CB Neglecteds and then never actually obtain them. As such some type of detailed warning stating how the system works and that it can at times fail and is thus the user's own risk would likely be included, like a much more in-depth version of the one-way transfer warning.

A suggestion of how this could be implemented in-cave.

 

if someone hasn't logged in for over two months, all IOUs owed to them are automatically cancelled. It'd be nice if there was an announcement on the breeder's scroll that appeared to say this, too.

An expansion to Angelicdragonpuppy's suggestion.

 

The biggest issue I see that needs to be addressed is the TYPE of IOU in question. I don't see anything wrong with ASKING for an IOU in a trade... but OFFERING an IOU should be a big NO NO.

 

Asking means you accept the risk and understand that you may receive nothing.

Offering means you have nothing and are begging for something.

Example - HAVE: cb gold - WANT: offers; IOUs acceptable - should be OK

Example2 - HAVE: IOU for cb gold - WANT: neglected hatchling - is what should be banned.

 

 

While I myself don't trade much, any time I see IOU I get nervous.. and I'll only accept or offer an IOU to someone I know, and/or have traded with before.

 

a message on the top of the trading forums of the essence of "IOUs are not an official part of the game and are not supported by dragcave. They are risky actions, so keep that in mind if you offer or accept an IOU."

Sock has presented both of these together, so I am quoting them together.

 

With all of this in mind, does anyone think we canFor myself, I feel that having anything in DragonCave itself to *force* compliance is not the way to go, because any such system would require lots of programing, be prone to glitches, and I personally feel TJ could put his time to better use. However, a note taking BSA might be feasible?

 

 

 

 

Now a BSA (possibly Nilias? Quote for Nilia's description:

 

 

They are curious and always around you, so maybe they can "make notes" on trades of yours? Say...

"After a long discussion and a trade agreement with a fellow human, you happily tell the Nilia closest to you of the good fortune. The Nila, also being excited, writes down the agreement and gives a copy to your trading partner. Then, when you both get home, writes the trade agreement on the wall of the cave, so all around know what will be happening"

 

Then, under that, could be a simple form:

IOU Trade

With: _________

When Agreement Made: _______ (must be a date)

You're end of the Agreement: _____________

Have you given? ____ (check box)

Your Trading Partner's end of the Agreement: __________

Have they Given? ___ (check box)

Eggs You've Given: (links / lists the eggs you've sent to your trading partner)

Eggs You've Received: (links / lists the eggs you've gotten from your trading partner)

Notes: __________________________________________

 

 

This is sent to your trading partner's scroll, and they can accept / decline / modify until you both reach an agreement. The IOU agreement is then saved, and you can access it whenever you want. And it's there, in the cave, so it can't get lost. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen in people's signatures, "I had a computer virus / crash / other misshap and I know I owe someone an egg, but I can't find any record of it PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pm me!". And both IOU partners can see the same form, and can leave messages for each other in the Notes section. For instance, I recently completed an IOU for an Ice from a specific pair. I bred ever week, and got refusals and no eggs, and it would have been nice to have a place where I could put that information that my trading partner could see without having to spam their in-box with an update. For myself, I would love to have a place an IOU partner owing me something could put updates without PM'ing me. That way, I'd always have the update and could see it when I wanted, rather than have it fill up the (limited) space in my in-box.

 

Add in a "Mark Complete" feature as well. Say, when you mark it as complete, your trading partner has to do the same. Then the note turns green and moves into, say, the "completed IOU section" and is out of sight. If you mark it complete and your trading partner says you didn't complete it, it stays "active", and visible. If your trading partner goes inactive, lets say doesn't log in for a month, it grays out and says something like, "Your trading partner seems to have vanished, and your Nilias have sadly covered up the trade on the cave wall." When they come back, the IOU would turn black again and could have something like, "Your Nilias have managed to contact your trading partner again, and in joy have un-covered the previous trade agreement".

 

Also, if you're going to go fancy.... Go fancy! In the Teleport, give a 3rd option: IOU Trade. If you select that, then you put your egg in the teleport. At that point, a huge warning in red pops up, warning the user that IOUs are not enforceable by the Admin / MODs and there is no gaurentee their trading partners will ever give them anything back. If the person says, yes they understand, it'd put the egg in a teleport and open up the Nilia dialog box above, let you fill it out everything but the "With", and then you'd give your IOU trading partner that teleport. When they agree to it, their username would be put in the "With" field. To make things even easier to keep track of, the egg you've just sent would be linked to in the "Eggs You've Given" field. And your partner could then go to the trade agreement, and use it to send you their part of the bargain, and then what they've sent to you would appear in the "Received" area.

 

And might as well go whole hog, and suggest a final refinement. Add a 4th option to teleport: IOU Trade Fulfillment. If you select this, it will then let you select the Nilia cared for IOU note it's in reply to, and the egg would be shown in both user's notes.

 

The last two parts would be great... I remember one memorable IOU, where me and the other user were swapping lots of specific and special lineaged eggs for CB hatchlings, and the IOU grew with time as more special eggs and hatchlings were added to it. Toward the end, recordkeeping broke down a little and my trading partner insisted on giving me hatchlings I was positive she didn't really owe me. She insisted, and I decided not to make an issue of it.

 

 

 

 

I'm of two minds of making this sort of action visible to others. Basically, it could be used as a feedback system if part of the trade or it's statistics were made visible. For example, if it was made visible to those in general:

IOU Statistics

Number of successfully completed IOUs: (lists the number of IOUs the user has completed, ie, both trade partners marked as complete)

Number of IOUs In Progress:

Number of IOUs with Inactive Players:

Number of IOUs Failed to Meet:

 

I'm not really feeling like that would be a good idea, because there is no way to guarantee that one of the partners hasn't lied when checking Completed / Failed to Complete. In addition, if someone unscrupulous wanted to, they could in theory use friends (or multi-scrolls) to give themselves "good" feedback, letting them scam others.

 

I'm against letting other people see the actual trades you've completed, unless there was some sort of opt-out and who you traded with was blacked out unless both users agreed to have it visible. There's a few IOUs I've done that were *not* at the "going rate" for those dragons but were done the way they were for other reasons that were nobody else's business and I for one can and will bite people who beg / harass me (and enjoy every bite of it!) but there are those who are not as belligerent as I am and that sort of thing really upsets them / guilts them.

 

 

Wow... That was like a novel! Sorry bout that, the ideas just kept poring out! Kudoes to all who managed to read it all, and sorry if I'm not entirely coherent in places it's been a long day.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I think this is an excellent suggestion.

 

With all of this in mind, do you think that will get this suggestion passed? Discuss!

Edited January 12, 2013 by gistofeverything

[Obscure_Trash]

:3

 

I just want to clarify that the points I quoted ('presented together') are for discussion and good starting places, not exact solutions. ^^

 

EDIT: Remembered!

 

I wanted to point out that simply adding a warning to the trading section about how IOUs aren't an official part of the game does not solve the issue we're looking at. I quoted it as part of a solution, but they can't be a whole solution. We need some sort of fix or compromise that integrates IOUs as an official part of the game. Simply stating that they aren't a part of the game changes nothing, as the trading section is for official use of the teleport and abandoning system only. ^^

Edited January 11, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Pokemonfan13]

...the problem is I don't see a way to make IOUs "official" without also making them binding, which TJ said no to... I mean, what's the point of making them official if all it can be is an official list of stuff you owe and are owed without anything to make you pay. I admit an official list would be nice, but it still seems a bit.....dunno, worthless? And would making an official list for your account be enough to bring IOUs back to trading anyways?

 

I personally think that a binding system is totally workable as long as it takes into account people being away, so that if the recipient hasn't accessed the site in x amount of time the IOU becomes inactive until they view a page again [since some people stay logged in all the time on a computer]. It would also take into account people being "active" [ie accessing pages] while the item is being offered and not taking it. If they brush off enough IOU fulfillments then the IOU is wiped. After all, the IOU egg would be available for taking for at least 3 days, and most likely longer if the person doesn't post it. It only takes 2 days to hatch a new egg with incubate, so it's not like they can't unlock themselves in that time frame. And IOU brush offs was one of the possible annoyances that TJ brought up.

 

 

 

BTW, the same thing is quoted twice in the OP.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[HeatherMarie]

I hope I'm not going to get warned for this, because this *may* have already been covered, but....

 

Why is it so wrong to simply implement it into the actual game and let the users take the risk? I'm imagining something similar to teleport, except with a field (for either the "asking" or "offering" side) to state exactly what the IOU is for (you could type "CB Stripe", or maybe there could be a list of all your breedable dragons and you can "make" a pair and show that an egg from those two dragons is what you are IOUing).

 

There would be BIG, BOLD letters warning users that accepting IOUs are risky, and DragonCave will not be held responsible if an IOU isn't filled. Users should be cautioned that since they are doing this at their own risk, with full knowledge, they should not contact moderators/TJ/etc about IOUs gone wrong.

 

If a contact were to happen, mod could gently remind user that the IOU was done at their own risk and nothing can or will be done to interfere, so please do not bug moderators about it. Any subsequent whining can be warned.

 

I'm sure you guys will find tons of things wrong with my suggestion, but I honestly don't see why it's so complicated. Having a large warning on the IOU page won't *stop* users from complaining on the forums, but those threads can quickly be closed as spam.

[Obscure_Trash]

/shrugs

It's a non-binding possible solution. Nothing wrong with suggesting it. I think the issue was just how do you add that to teleport without it being binding? I actually don't have a problem with the field, as long as it doesn't hold the user to it and there's a warning that it's at your own risk and you and the other user are responsible for remembering the IOU offer. But is that an acceptable solution to TJ so that mods and TJ can still avoid having to also step up to moderate IOUs or is any way it's done imply that users are officially held to the IOU some way? (And I'm not trying to promote scamming here, just trying to avoid binding.) I dunno. That's up to TJ. x3

 

EDIT: Random thought about contact - would this also require a field of contact? Would it auto-add your email at your own risk? I can't imagine offering an IOU field without providing a way for users to contact each other.

Edited January 11, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[gistofeverything]

O_o Edited the OP.

 

...the problem is I don't see a way to make IOUs "official" without also making them binding, which TJ said no to...

If there's no way to reverse it...

Why not make binding optional? Say, that could be a click box in the teleport window: "Bind both players to the agreement?" This would only occur if both members agreed. If they didn't, then no trade would happen. If both parties said "no", then it would fall under a regular Transfer.

 

Another thought I had was to make an auto-email (which I thiiink is possible) reminding players of IOUs they currently owe.

 

In my opinion, seeing an official list would be nice for me; something like the account log, giving a date and time of when the IOU was implemented? I don't know.

 

There would be BIG, BOLD letters warning users that accepting IOUs are risky...

I could see this as an extra screen before password confirmation if one takes my proposed system in view, if both players agreed to no contract.

[Obscure_Trash]

Why not make binding optional? Say, that could be a click box in the teleport window: "Bind both players to the agreement?" This would only occur if both members agreed. If they didn't, then no trade would happen. If both parties said "no", then it would fall under a regular Transfer.

 

Another thought I had was to make an auto-email (which I thiiink is possible) reminding players of IOUs they currently owe.

 

In my opinion, seeing an official list would be nice for me; something like the account log, giving a date and time of when the IOU was implemented? I don't know.

Even "optional" binding still leaves us with all the problems of binding, though. D:

[gistofeverything]

If there's no way to reverse it...

 

This is a way to reverse it. I do not see any absolution in his reluctance, seeing as how he included this in his post.

[Pokemonfan13]

Then have a binding that can be set to non-enforced later if both agree to it and the enforcement is temporarily removed if the recipient does not access the site for a certain amount of time [a month?].

 

That way if the recipient vanishes the person owing can go back to their normal breeding.

 

 

 

And if both parties say "no" it should still count as an IOU in that it would go on your official IOU list, but the site wouldn't enforce it.

[Draikinator]

angelicdragonpuppy's suggestion actually seems phenomenal.

Would it need to be a specific BSA, or just another part of a Magi's ability?

If it were another BSA though, I would suggest a Daydream. They could 'drop' the draem idea of the eggs into the reciever's thoughts, perhaps? Just my two cents.

But it's a lovely idea. Perhaps you have to have at least tried to breed the IOU'd dragons within a certain timespan, say, the last two or three weeks to continue picking up new eggs?

 

//edit

or make one egg slot non accessible if the dragons weren't attempted to be bred after three weeks or so? If they breed and get nothing or the wrong egg it is opened back up for use.

 

I like the idea of the auto email reminder, though, a lot.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Draikinator

[gistofeverything]

[a month?]

A month while under breeding restrictions... seems long to me. Two weeks?

 

Also, maybe this can only be for IOUs of common dragons. Any metallic dragons of any sort cannot have a contract seeing as how they will never produce metals. (I exaggerated. Shoot me.)

 

//edit

or make one egg slot non accessible if the dragons weren't attempted to be bred after three weeks or so? If they breed and get nothing or the wrong egg it is opened back up for use.

 

Egg limits will never again increase.

Edited January 11, 2013 by gistofeverything

[Pokemonfan13]

Daydreams do not have control over their daydream abilities.

 

 

 

I agree that a month seems like a long time, but it's better than forever. x3 Although I agree shorter is better if possible.

[WraithZephyr]

Trading is all about an exchange of goods or services between two parties. Sometimes the exchange is immediate between both parties and sometimes it is not and therefore becomes an "IOU" for one or both sides. For that reason alone IOUs should be considered allowable since trading in and of itself is officially part of the game since the advent of the teleport links.

 

Personally I think a simple solution is to have a single IOU Trading thread. Make it known in the first post that IOUs are a risky agreement and that there is no recourse if you got cheated - you were warned about the risk involved. Rules can be very simple and clear cut:

 

(1) Transfer (One-way) Links: Any user who claims eggs/hatchlings through a transfer link is under no obligation to give you anything in return; this is a one-way transfer. One-sided trading (IOUs) is a risky business. Use this thread at your own risk.

 

(2) Once a deal is struck between two parties and one party has successfully transferred eggs/hatchlings to the other party, it is up to you both to keep track of your trade progress privately. Posting on the forums that so-&-so hasn't kept their end of the deal up is not allowed.

 

However as Sock said, can't make everyone read the first page of the thread. So, I think another but far more suitable "global" option (i.e. can't be overlooked/ignored) is to go ahead and allow IOUs in all trade threads, BUT on the Teleport screen include additional warning information:

 

 

Teleportation Type

 

Transfer (One-way): Create a transfer that can be used to send up to four eggs or hatchlings to another user.

  

    * Warning: Any user who claims your eggs/hatchlings through a transfer link is under no obligation to give you anything in return; this is a one-way transfer. If this transfer is intended to be part of a privately arranged trading agreement (IOU) between you and another user, please remember that you do this at your own risk.

 

Trade (Two-way): Create a trade that can be used to safely exchange up to four eggs or hatchlings with another user.

 

Please select up to four eggs or hatchlings to be teleported.

 

This allows for ALL players to get regular reminders about the risks of IOUs each time they go to trade or transfer eggs/hatchlings. It does not bind, restrict, or lock in anyone to anything and what not. It does not involve any convoluted/complicated software coding/rewriting. It's just a simple quick addition of a some text to one page.

Edited January 11, 2013 by WraithZephyr

[Cinnamin Draconna]

...the problem is I don't see a way to make IOUs "official" without also making them binding, which TJ said no to... I mean, what's the point of making them official if all it can be is an official list of stuff you owe and are owed without anything to make you pay. I admit an official list would be nice, but it still seems a bit.....dunno, worthless? And would making an official list for your account be enough to bring IOUs back to trading anyways?

 

I personally think that a binding system is totally workable as long as it takes into account people being away, so that if the recipient hasn't accessed the site in x amount of time the IOU becomes inactive until they view a page again [since some people stay logged in all the time on a computer]. It would also take into account people being "active" [ie accessing pages] while the item is being offered and not taking it. If they brush off enough IOU fulfillments then the IOU is wiped. After all, the IOU egg would be available for taking for at least 3 days, and most likely longer if the person doesn't post it. It only takes 2 days to hatch a new egg with incubate, so it's not like they can't unlock themselves in that time frame. And IOU brush offs was one of the possible annoyances that TJ brought up.

I totally agree, there's no way to make an official IOU without it being binding on the person OFFERING the IOU. I think that 'that' is exactly what the debate is all about. If it can't be enforced, what's the use of 'making it official'?

[_Z_]

IOU's are a personal decision between members. We at DC can not stand behind, approve or be responsible for every possible agreement between members.

[blackdragon71]

IOUs are a matter of personal integrity and honor. No one else can dictate that but the person who offers it up. How could it ever be enforced or made an official part of a free game wherein no one HAS to trade their dragons, but does so for their personal (and the other person's benefit)?

 

In real life, IOUs can be enforced to a point, but they generally have to be in writing, so that if one party doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, then the legal system can step in and hear both sides of the issue. A handshake and a person's word just don't hold the same value that they did in our grandparents' day. After so many notices that "hey, you owe me" doesn't work, then a secondary agreement (such as restitution) or punishment can be administered by a third party. And that system is in place because face it, not everyone pays their debts. There is a financial crisis going on in this country for that very reason.

 

There is no way a legal system like that can exist here, because trade was never an official part of the game, either. Think about when we didn't have teleport, and had to F5 in the AP in the hopes that we were the one who caught our intended egg. Eggs got lost, and that was just your bad luck. The teleport option was only implemented to make the system a little easier, so that eggs could be transferred when each person had time to click the link, and people wouldn't be crying about other people 'stealing' their eggs.

 

But it still comes back to the person and their honor system, and it simply can't be enforced here, because trade/IOUs/etc. are not the main feature of the game itself.

Edited January 11, 2013 by blackdragon71

[Draikinator]

Egg limits will never again increase.

Please reread my post. I didn't suggest that nor would I, because it would be a ridiculous implementation for this sort of thing. Franky, I'm a little insulted.

I said to make one egg slot lock. As in, an existing egg slot.

 

IE. This is relying on the previous suggestion by angelicdragonpuppy.

John makes an IOU with another player for a Silver offspring of one of his silvers. He has six egg slots. He does not attempt to breed this Silver, however, because it was recently bred. A few days pass and now it can be bred. He still does not breed it, though, because he is egglocked.

 

He neglects to breed the Silver to even TRY to fulfill his IOU and continues to collect new eggs. Three weeks after the initial agreement, his sixth egg slot locks. He can breed and grab eggs regularly, but only five. When he breeds his Silver, the sixth slot unlocks, whether the Silver has offspring or not.

 

If it has a Silver offspring it goes to the recipient of the IOU. If it is the wrong offspring, it fills the slot and can be dropped/traded regularly. If it has no offspring, the slot still unlocks and can be used once more. Three weeks later it relocks untilt he Silver is bred.

[Fuzzbucket]

IOUs are a matter of personal integrity and honor. No one else can dictate that but the person who offers it up. How could it ever be enforced or made an official part of a free game wherein no one HAS to trade their dragons, but does so for their personal (and the other person's benefit)?

 

In real life, IOUs can be enforced to a point, but they generally have to be in writing, so that if one party doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, then the legal system can step in and hear both sides of the issue. A handshake and a person's word just don't hold the same value that they did in our grandparents' day. After so many notices that "hey, you owe me" doesn't work, then a secondary agreement (such as restitution) or punishment can be administered by a third party. And that system is in place because face it, not everyone pays their debts. There is a financial crisis going on in this country for that very reason.

 

There is no way a legal system like that can exist here, because trade was never an official part of the game, either. Think about when we didn't have teleport, and had to F5 in the AP in the hopes that we were the one who caught our intended egg. Eggs got lost, and that was just your bad luck. The teleport option was only implemented to make the system a little easier, so that eggs could be transferred when each person had time to click the link, and people wouldn't be crying about other people 'stealing' their eggs.

 

But it still comes back to the person and their honor system, and it simply can't be enforced here, because trade/IOUs/etc. are not the main feature of the game itself.

^this^

 

I offer to accept IOUs if I LIKE. But I think Cinnamin was right on the money with this post:

The biggest issue I see that needs to be addressed is the TYPE of IOU in question. I don't see anything wrong with ASKING for an IOU in a trade... but OFFERING an IOU should be a big NO NO.

 

Asking means you accept the risk and understand that you may receive nothing.

Offering means you have nothing and are begging for something.

Example - HAVE: cb gold - WANT: offers; IOUs acceptable - should be OK

Example2 - HAVE: IOU for cb gold - WANT: neglected hatchling - is what should be banned.

 

I don't see how it can ever be enforceable. Heck - I have an IOU for a COMMON proven pair who are at the moment edging coyly around each other... Luckily it is to a friend who is as amused as I am - they seem to have taken this stance since the moment I said she could have one; before that they bred like RABBITS

 

I would carry Cinnamin's further and say "Want CB silver; offer IOU for 2nd gen gold" is also not OK. Even if you have the golds on your scroll, and could in theory produce. That is expecting the OTHER person to take the risk.

 

Any risk HAS to be borne by the person offering an actual THING and agreeing to accept an IOU. That said - IF they were to become OFFICIAL - I cannot see them also being policed. I think they would have to come with a whacking warning like the one you get when offering a one way teleport: "they do not have to give you anything back".

 

"If you offer or accept any IOU you do so at your own risk. If it doesn't work out, DC staff will not be able to help you."

 

The thing with a dedicated thread is that that kind of warning would probably be in the first post, right ? Where it would vanish and new posters wouldn't see it. Take the EG trading thread as an example. Many people STILL post non-even gens - and say oh they had no idea it was only for even gens. And you would think they might grasp THAT from the title of the thread. A rule like this wouldn't FIT in the title... no terms and conditions would.

 

Unless it was called "The VERY VERY RISKY AND DANGEROUS IOU TRADING THREAD..."

 

OR you could have a requirement - like in a lot of trading threads - to include some text when you post - and if you didn't your post could be removed by the thread mods:

I accept that by posting in this thread, I do so at my own risk, and any IOU I may be offered may never be received - and that there is nothing that can be done if this happens to me.

 

Nothing to be actionable by mods, but the possibility to offer and accept in a thread. Sort of SEMI official ?

 

But we ARE already actually able to say we will accept IOUs for things we HAVE, as far as I can see ? Aren't we ?

[Pixxelation]

*This post is not intended as a strike against the rules, just a question about them*

 

I'm confused as to whyp IOUs will have to be an official part of the game. All that banning them will do is slow some people down, since they'll still be able to get their IOUs across. That's why I think a warning in the trading threads, like when posting a topic in help, would be the perfect solution.

[Fuzzbucket]

*This post is not intended as a strike against the rules, just a question about them*

 

I'm confused as to whyp IOUs will have to be an official part of the game. All that banning them will do is slow some people down, since they'll still be able to get their IOUs across. That's why I think a warning in the trading threads, like when posting a topic in help, would be the perfect solution.

I THINK if there is just a warning in general trade threads, when they go wrong, people will appeal to the mods to sort it. I think that cannot be a part of this.

 

If there is a SEPARATE thread for them, with a requirement to post that you know you are taking a risk and no-one can sort it for you, it will get over that ?

 

But I think I may have misunderstood you..

 

I'm confused as to whyp IOUs will have to be an official part of the game. All that banning them will do is slow some people down, since they'll still be able to get their IOUs across.

 

You seem to ask why they should be official, and also mentioning what banning would do - in a way that doesn't seem to connect for me...

 

edited for incomprehensibility fail

Edited January 11, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[gistofeverything]

Please reread my post.

Oh my goodness, you're right! I'm sorry!

I like this idea as well, but would this also be considered binding?

 

Why not make binding optional?

Since obviously this won't work?

 

On that note, maybe a contract can be drawn up at the time of transfer: like on the password screen, "By entering your password in the box below, you agree that any agreement that you have reached with another player is personal and between you two. The player you are sending this dragon to is under no obligation to give you anything in return."

 

Or something like that.

[SolarCat]

My thoughts on IOUs...

 

For starters, Holiday Dragons.

These dragons can only be bred for holiday offspring for a week a year, so I think there should be some allowances made for this. That said, I don't expect them to be an IOU as in "I give you this today and you give me a halloween dragon next year when they can breed" sort of thing. I would expect the trade to only go through if both sides have their promised dragon. As such, these are the sorts of "IOUs" I believe should be allowed.

 

(1) Have CB (holiday breed), will breed to your choice of mate. (WITHIN the holiday breeding window)

The assumption is that if misfortune occurs and the person making the offer breeds accidentally to the wrong mate or (as happens occasionally but not often) the holiday dragon fails to produce holiday offspring, the other person participating in the trade would be able to take their side of the trade elsewhere.

 

Points in favor of this being permitted:

- Holiday dragons generally breed like rabbits during their breeding timeframe.

- Many people like to pick their own mates for the holiday dragons, rather than relying on what they pick up from the AP.

- Since the trade won't go through until both sides have their part of the bargain, it's not a traditional "IOU".

 

(2) Holiday Dragons should have a permissible "offspring swap" sort of thread from 2-weeks to a month before their respective holiday, up to the day the official breeding window begins. This would be a thread to post things about what holidays you have, what holidays you're looking for, and arrange either trading or gifting in advance. There'd be no exchange of dragons until the thread was closed when breeding begun, but it would be a safe place to try and arrange swaps and things in advance.

For example, I have a pair that breed 3rd gen Dark Marrow x Silver checkerboards. I was looking for a mate so I can continue the lineage next year. The silvers are notorious to breed, and whenever I had a silver from my lineage nobody else with a similar lineage seemed to have one. Dark Marrows are easier to breed and trade than silvers, so I did manage to find someone in a breeding thread interested in swapping marrows once the breeding season started. This still took awhile - I was down to the wire before I managed to locate and promise a trade inside breeding season. We picked the date and a time range when we'd breed, I happened to be on first and set up the trade, they added their egg to trade and I accepted the swap. This would have been easier to arrange if there was a thread dedicated to it.

 

Points in favor of this being permitted:

- Holiday dragons generally breed like rabbits during their breeding timeframe.

- Allows users time to hunt for the lineages they're looking for, in a dedicated location devoted to offspring from that holiday, thus permitting people to continue pretty lineages to breed and share next year.

- Since the trade won't go through until both sides have their part of the bargain, it's not a traditional "IOU".

 

 

Alright, now on to "regular" IOUs...

People should not be permitted to offer an IOU of something later in exchange for something now, and "whatever you see from my scroll" and other vague nonsense should be banned. If people are offering to breed something it should be something tangible, hence my suggestion above that it should be limited to Holiday dragons only, with the understanding that if the breeding is unsuccessful for some reason then the trade won't go through.

 

That said, I see no reason for people to not be allowed to type "IOUs okay" if they're offering something tangible on their end, and accepting the risk that the other won't pull through in return.

The forum could be set to autocorrect "IOU" into "IOU (I recognize that these are not an official part of the game and I agree to assume all associated risks in the event it is not fulfilled)" or something similar - that way anyone running across the term for the first time would also know that it's not officially sanctioned by the game, they take it on at their own risk. But as long as the person offering is willing to assume the risks, and RECOGNIZES that if the IOU is unfulfilled that there's nothing that can be done (and I think the autocorrect would ensure that), I see no reason why it shouldn't be offered.

 

I have no problem taking on IOUs, I don't accept an IOU unless I feel that it's an acceptable risk that I would get nothing in return. For example, I have some rather pretty lineages that I frequently trade rather than gift, mainly because that way I know my recipient will cherish it. I have had gifted eggs from these pairs abandoned when they found something that struck their fancy more, and I don't want that to happen with these particular lineages if I can help it. If someone offers me an IOU of a 5th-gen-gold in return for the egg, even if they never return on that promise (for whatever reason), the fact that the gold is what they picked to offer is more than sufficient proof for me that they'll enjoy the egg as much as I do, because they thought it was worth that gold. Other times I'm just looking to round out my collections of common hatchlings or pretty lineages - and it's things I can obtain on my own, I'm just being lazy. If they don't return the IOU, I'll just do it on my own. Or other such scenarios.

 

I think that those who are like-minded should be permitted to accept the risks upon themselves, and I think that adding in an auto-correct on the word IOU would ensure that anyone who sees the word "IOU" would know it's not an "official" part of the game, it's an "at risk" part of the game.

 

 

Just my 2 cents. (Or maybe a dollar, I tried to keep it short! )

That said, if IOUs are never permitted back into the game, I'd love if at least the holiday portion of my post above is permitted, as I do not feel that would cause a problem, and would help people in locating the lineages they'd like to continue their breeding projects and enjoyment of the game.

[arlymaye]

To make IOU workable, first, we need to remove the mindset that *IOU is not an official game play on DC* mentality. Because, like it or not, IOU is widely given and accepted and to sweep it under the rug to make it something *illegal* will not help this discussion in any way, shape or form.

 

The only way not to make IOU binding through the implementation of the system mechanics is to use the honor system of members. This can be accomplished by simply stating that anyone accepting an IOU do so on their own risk. There are already suggestions on how this line can be worded and I think the auto correct version is one of the easiest to implement.

 

I also agree that we should not allow anyone making an IOU of something they do not yet have (besides holidays which can be permitted during their breeding period window).

[PolarVortex]

I like the idea of an "official" list somewhere in game, mostly as a helpful reminder for both parties.

 

Since it should be non-binding, but it is expected to be on the honor system, what about a "shaming" factor? If you have an egg/hatchling on your scroll that meets the criteria of an IOU that you owe, both you and the person you traded with would be alerted. You wouldn't HAVE to give it to them, but you and your trading partner would both know that you were shirking your responsibility if you didn't. On the plus side, for honest traders, it would also let the receiving party know that they may have to clear a slot for an incoming transfer.

 

Similarly if you go to breed a dragon that you owe someone a breeding on and you decided to breed it to a different dragon perhaps a warning could come up saying "remember, you owe Player A an offspring with Dragon X" or something like that. Again, it doesn't actually stop anyone from doing what they like, but they will be reminded of their debts and hopefully either shamed or annoyed enough to follow through

 

If a player goes inactive (I'd say at the point their dragon names disappear) the outstanding IOUs should be cleared. That way if someone owes something they know they don't have to worry about it anymore, or if someone is owed they know they won't be getting it anymore.

 

Honest players shouldn't be bothered by this because presumably they are working diligently to fulfill their IOUs anyway.

 

I recognize that this might be too difficult to implement, however.

[Obscure_Trash]

*This post is not intended as a strike against the rules, just a question about them*

 

I'm confused as to whyp IOUs will have to be an official part of the game. All that banning them will do is slow some people down, since they'll still be able to get their IOUs across. That's why I think a warning in the trading threads, like when posting a topic in help, would be the perfect solution.

The trading section is for official use of the teleport and abandoning system. IOUs are not an official part of the game. To be allowed in the trading section, there needs to be some kind of way to make them a part of the game.

 

Why not make binding optional?

 

Since obviously this won't work?

 

I didn't comment on it after your latest comment because I'm not TJ. I, personally, think it would be best to stay away from any sort of binding action.

 

~

 

Whomever suggested a BSA - that idea is really interesting. Too bad the daydream doesn't work for it, because the idea of making this a BSA rather than adding it to teleport is fascinating for me and I think it may work better having it completely separate from teleport, where you for sure are transferring eggs/hatchlings.

 

Reminder of the topic:

 

Warning from Sock: this thread is purely for discussion on how to make IOUs workable on the site so they can be allowed on DCF in the trading section. Any users who take the opportunity to post their dis/agreement with the 'no IOUs' rule will be warned and their post removed. We understand that some of you disagree. Let's find a fix or a compromise. Simply striking out the rule or not understanding our reasoning is not a compromise.

 

Topic cleaned accordingly.

 

And reminder of my point from the second post:

 

I wanted to point out that simply adding a warning to the trading section about how IOUs aren't an official part of the game does not solve the issue we're looking at. I quoted it as part of a solution, but they can't be a whole solution. We need some sort of fix or compromise that integrates IOUs as an official part of the game. Simply stating that they aren't a part of the game changes nothing, as the trading section is for official use of the teleport and abandoning system only. ^^

 

If you can find a solution that doesn't require making IOUs a part of the site, awesome! But that solution isn't to say 're-allow asking for IOUs in the trading section'. Code abandoning/trading was allowed even though it was a glitch because TJ allowed it. It was a stand-in for trading. Then we got teleport and an official trading section for official uses of the site. IOUs are not an official use. Please come up with a solution or compromise.

Edited January 11, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler