American Politics

[trystan]

33 minutes ago, Astreya said:

the "women for Trump" I can understand even less, btw

i have never understood this.  or Blacks for Trump, Hispanics for Trump, nope, totally do NOT understand where these people come from. i mean... wtf?

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

1 hour ago, trystan said:

i have never understood this.  or Blacks for Trump, Hispanics for Trump, nope, totally do NOT understand where these people come from. i mean... wtf?

 

Some of it is 'pulling up the ladder behind you so others can't follow you' mentality. They don't want other people like them to get the same chance. They want to be 'special.' They don't want to be equals. They want to feel 'better than.'

 

I have said it's felt surreal since Trump was elected. The sense of surrealness hasn't ended yet.

 

Headline: Biden removes Trump's Diet Coke button from the Oval Office

[trystan]

10 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

Headline: Biden removes Trump's Diet Coke button from the Oval Office

i saw that.  it's amusing.

 

10 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

I have said it's felt surreal since Trump was elected. The sense of surrealness hasn't ended yet.

surreal is all right.  we do still need to vigilant, and not get complacent.

[Jamari]

Biden already took out all the military memoribilia from the white house. Lincoln in his military regalia Franklin in his  niform.. I'm not sure if he has any pics of himself in his uniform at war.  And in case you haven't heard... No pipeline! Yay! Now the only thing left to do there is to find the thousands of people that will be unemployed find new jobs. I can't wait to see all the orders he's given today. LOL

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

2 hours ago, Astreya said:

And this is what I really don't understand - why on earth can working class people be duped to worship a (seemingly) super-rich person who mainly inherited the wealth from his father (who originally gave him some millions to start his career, too), who is flaunting his wealth,  looks down on "losers", assaults women (the "women for Trump" I can understand even less, btw), pays workers no money for their work, has no Christian morals whatsoever etc?

  

I guess the problem is that the US education system doesn't really reach people, particularly as there is no mandatory school attendance. IMO many people in the US need some proper education about ethics where people can't opt out.

 

It's complicated and simple at the same time. They keep moving the 'goalposts' to declare wins. It's winning this moment that they care about, not the blatant contradictions and hypocrisy. Whatever position they have to take to win is the position they take. They gloat over their 'victories,' and wonder why they're not admired and their company sought out. They win! They're like alcoholics. They'll ruin their relationships, their life, their bodies, but there'll always be that next bottle to reach for.

 

School attendance is largely mandatory. Learning isn't. Memorize, take the test, delete from memory. Boring. Politics? Maybe they'll teach you something besides the presidents and the Declaration of Independence and the branches of government when you get in high school and can't hear anything over your hormones raging. 

 

A lot of textbooks are written to meet the standards set and approved by the Texas Board of Education - which is dominated by Republicans. Their latest decision in November was to leave LGBT+ and consent out of sex education. Other decisions in past years: Opposed teaching critical thinking skills because it changed behavior,and undermined parental authority, removed Helen Keller and Hilliary Clinton from social studies, emphasizing America as being founded as a Christian natuon, McGraw recalled Texas textbooks that called slaves 'workers' and 'immigrants,'  and I don't recall what all else. Lots of whitewashing of history. 

 

California is the other big influencer of what goes into USA textbooks.

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Long_Before_Sunrise

[Astreya]

11 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

School attendance is largely mandatory. Learning isn't. Memorize, take the test, delete from memory.

Oh, then I must have misunderstood things. I thought there were many people who decided to homeschool kids as they didn't want them to learn certain things. Or is the school system a matter of the states, just as it is in Germany (although here we have country-wide mandatory attendance for pupils, no exceptions)?

 

11 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

A lot of textbooks are written to meet the standards set and approved by the Texas Board of Education - which is dominated by Republicans. Their latest decision in November was to leave LGBT+ and consent out of sex education. Other decisions in past years: Opposed teaching critical thinking skills because it changed behavior,and undermined parental authority, removed Helen Keller and Hilliary Clinton from social studies, emphasizing America as being founded as a Christian natuon, McGraw recalled Texas textbooks that called slaves 'workers' and 'immigrants,'  and I don't recall what all else. Lots of whitewashing of history.

So these text books are used in other states, too? Who decides which school books are used? *curious*

 

11 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

California is the other big influencer of what goes into USA textbooks.

Do they also have particular ideas what they support or not?

 

In Germany, the Länder (=states) have the say where education is concerned, but there are some issues about the level of education the particular Land manages to achieve (e.g. the Bavarian system is considered much harder than say, the NRW system or Hamburg, and pupils often have difficulties (or find things much easier) when they transfer from one state to the other. Sadly the Wikipedia article on the German education system is German only (but if you are interested, maybe a machine translation tool can help).

[trystan]

Astreya - i don't pretend to know all the details, and my kids went to public school, so....

 

i believe it's the state's department of education that decides what text books are used.  the southern states - mainly Texas, Alabama, Mississippi - have LOUSY outdated textbooks (at least, that's what i understand, i don't have links to back it up.)

 

as for homeschooling, i do believe that yes - as you say, "many people who decided to homeschool kids as they didn't want them to learn certain things" - like sex ed and evolution, so yes, many people in the Bible Belt states (which also includes Texas, Alabama, Mississippi) might homeschool for the reason you suggest.  (again, this is what i understand, i don't have links to back it up.)

[AngelsSin]

Just because kids can be home schooled, doesn't mean they don't have to meet the same standard as kids who actually attend a normal school. They all have to learn much of the same things. They have to pass state or national standard tests same as any other kid. They can probably get away with not teaching some things but I believe that is very limited. Or you can expect a visit from Child Services, obviously some fall through the cracks, no system is perfect after all.

Laws concerning homeschooling by state

Wikipedia on homeschooling

 

I was relieved to hear they deep cleaned the White House after Trump left and before Biden moved in!

Edited January 22, 2021 by AngelsSin

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

54 minutes ago, AngelsSin said:

 

 

I was relieved to hear they deep cleaned the White House after Trump left and before Biden moved in!

 

 I was never clear on whether they were cleaning WHILE Trump's administration was moving out or packing to clean AFTER they left or if it was both. 

[Astreya]

@trystan  @AngelsSin

Thanks for the info! I mainly heard some stuff about this homeschooling thing from (German) TV where it was mostly mentioned in passing. Considering the fact that it seems to be possible (at least in Germany) that some people leave school as functional illiterates (the guesstimate in Germany is 4-10 million persons of the 82 million population), I thought things might be even worse when the kids don't see professional teachers.

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

@Astreya

 

There is home schooling, but most children go to public, private, or charter schools. As to who chooses the textbooks, it's different state by state and school district by school district.  So there's different answers to that question. 

 

I'm on the East side of the USA so I don't know much about what California chooses to go into textbooks. I lived in Texas, though, so what the Texas State Board of Education was up to was state/local news. A lot of people in the USA don't know that Texas has such a big influence on textbooks. 

 

[Astreya]

@Long_Before_Sunrise

Ah, so the text book issue is as fractured as it is in my place where many people have a say and in the end something is chosen that the groups agree on. ^^

[AngelsSin]

As for Trump supporters willingness to believe anything. Well i kinda understand a little bit. Some people are just inherently more gullible. Like my mom. It has nothing to do with how good their eduction was. 

Now my mom isnt a dumb person. My mom had a good education. She was a medical assistant recently retired.

But she is extremely gullible. She is also racist despite her mother who was born in Africa whose parents were from Spain. Who were also Jewish. This is Something i have known about her a very long time.

 

Growing up i have had to deal with having a compulsive liar for a brother constantly causing trouble for me. No matter how many times he lied, no matter how often he was caught in those lies, she never stopped believing he was telling the truth. No matter how often i told the truth she always believed they were a lie.

 

To some they get lies and truth all switched up and can't accept them differently. It gets all twisted in their heads. It doesnt matter how many times they are forced to confront a lie, no matter the evidence in front of their eyes.

 

After decades my mom still has trouble accepting that my brother lies and that maybe a bit because of all his lies i stick to the truth often telling bluntly no sugar coating it for her. It only makes her dig her heels in though. But i refuse to do otherwise. It's part of who i am now. Things are better now that we all live separately and he is hundreds of miles away and so can't create a bunch of drama that i am forced to deal with. As he likes to use me to cover for his lies as my mom has an insane willingness to believe I'm the villain in his stories. Despite usually having zero to do with it or any knowledge of it. 

 

I imagine many Trump supporters are similarly afflicted.

Edited January 22, 2021 by AngelsSin

[soullessheartofsteel]

13 hours ago, Astreya said:

And this is what I really don't understand - why on earth can working class people be duped to worship a (seemingly) super-rich person who mainly inherited the wealth from his father (who originally gave him some millions to start his career, too), who is flaunting his wealth,  looks down on "losers", assaults women (the "women for Trump" I can understand even less, btw), pays workers no money for their work, has no Christian morals whatsoever etc?

 

Again, what I think is that Trump, and politicians similar to him, was able to craft a narrative so compelling that these people were willing to overlook the obvious discrepancies. Trump offered people simple solutions to complex problems, drawn along the lines of black vs white, left vs right, weak vs strong. He flattered those who sided with him, punished those who didn't, made them feel morally justified by offering them an outlet for their hate and fear. All politicians do this to some degree, that's just how politics work, but it starts getting dangerous when the stories they tell wander this far away from the truth and become this hateful. This 2018 Vox interview with Prof. Jason Stanley of Yale, goes into some detail about it, and ends with this extremely ominous quote:

"To be clear, this isn’t alarmist. We’re not on the brink of some fascist takeover. But there are reasons to be concerned, and we should always be on guard — that’s the lesson of history."

 

13 hours ago, Astreya said:

IMO many people in the US need some proper education about ethics where people can't opt out.

 

Was gonna reply, but realized everyone pretty much said the same thing as me that decentralization is the bigger issue, not just kids not showing up. Actually creating a functional democracy that empowers every individual and prevents radicalization is a taller order, but nips the issue in the bud. I'm not opposed to the government creating higher, more rigorous standards for civics if and when we ever reform our education system to be less strenuous to our kids, but as it stands right now, I don't know if it can be done without angering a lot of people, especially the right, who hate the word "required".

 

  

12 hours ago, trystan said:

i have never understood this.  or Blacks for Trump, Hispanics for Trump, nope, totally do NOT understand where these people come from. i mean... wtf?

 

The "Hispanics for Trump" thing is mostly Mexicans who consider themselves white Americans because they lived in Texas before it was annexed, and unrelated to Latine immigrants, and Cubans in Florida who dislike left-wing ideologies because of their old country. Some black conservatives are willing to overlook Trump's blatant racism and ties with the KKK because they feel more threatened by the whole immigrants-are-stealing-our-jobs thing due to having been economically suppressed and disenfranchised for so long. The Asian Trump supporters I've seen are usually part of the evangelical leg of his base, because of his stances on Christian issues like abortion and banning Muslims. They're definitely screwing themselves over much harder than his white supporters, yet there they linger.

 

And welcome back, Suzan.

Edited January 22, 2021 by soullessheartofsteel

[Astreya]

13 hours ago, Suzan said:

Biden already took out all the military memoribilia from the white house. Lincoln in his military regalia Franklin in his  niform.. I'm not sure if he has any pics of himself in his uniform at war.  And in case you haven't heard... No pipeline! Yay! Now the only thing left to do there is to find the thousands of people that will be unemployed find new jobs. I can't wait to see all the orders he's given today. LOL

 

What is bad in changing the busts and paintings? I think Benjamin Franklin is definitely an improvement to Andrew Jackson.

 

As for the other part.. Did you know that the old fossil fuel jobs are much fewer than those in the renewable energy sector?

 

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2017, there were about 967,000 total jobs in the oil and gas and supported industries throughout America. There are more jobs with renewable energy (and as this is the growing technology sector, compared to fossil fuels, which should be phased out anyway), and more jobs are created in this field, too:

 

"USEER reports that in 2018, 2,324,866 people worked in the United States energy efficiency sector. This represents an increase of more than 124,800 energy efficiency jobs since 2016, making it the energy sector with the highest job growth in the country (5.37 percent). " [Source]

 

So why on earth shouldn't the people who lose their jobs in the outgoing technologies retrain and get new jobs in the upcoming industries? I bet they will be better paid, too.

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Astreya

[Jamari]

Look. I'm old. I've spend decades reading and debating and talking out of turn. So, good on you for all your staticts and facts. Good  for you. Good to be so smart! I mean that. But if someone else makes a comment and you seem to be insulted you need to be tolerant and respectful with others. This is all controversy at best. I never said it was "bad". My morals and opinions are just as valid as yours. I've voted in 10 presidential elections. From Johnson to Trump. I.ve lived the consequences. I just stated facts. The pipeline is over. Gone. Between the covid mess and thousands of unemployed pipeline workers,  people are suffering. Homeless and hungry. and that's a fact. 

 

 

 

. 

[Astreya]

@Suzan

Why do you think I'm insulted? I was just pointing out solutions. We live in a time where renewable energy is a growth industry where far more jobs are created than get lost in the outgoing fossil fuel industry. So if a few thousand jobs get lost because a pipeline isn't build, but more than hundred thousand jobs are created in new renewable businesses, this means that there are actually more open jobs available than before, thus people can retrain and go for these.

 

The people that currently go hungry in the US were failed by the US policies that hollowed out any vestiges of a welfare state (not that the US ever actually had that). The problem is that it appears that many people in the US seem to have a problem with having to pay taxes for the public good. In northern European economies, people pay rather huge amounts of taxes (and some other things for the common good like e.g. mandatory health insurance for the whole population), but in return they get a working social system with proper unemployment compensation, proper health care that covers all pre-existing conditions, social welfare, no tuition fees, much less crime etc.

[ValidEmotions]

1 minute ago, Astreya said:

@Suzan

Why do you think I'm insulted? I was just pointing out solutions. We live in a time where renewable energy is a growth industry where far more jobs are created than get lost in the outgoing fossil fuel industry. So if a few thousand jobs get lost because a pipeline isn't build, but more than hundred thousand jobs are created in new renewable businesses, this means that there are actually more open jobs available than before, thus people can retrain and go for these.

 

The people that currently go hungry in the US were failed by the US policies that hollowed out any vestiges of a welfare state (not that the US ever actually had that). The problem is that it appears that many people in the US seem to have a problem with having to pay taxes for the public good. In northern European economies, people pay rather huge amounts of taxes (and some other things for the common good like e.g. mandatory health insurance for the whole population), but in return they get a working social system with proper unemployment compensation, proper health care that covers all pre-existing conditions, social welfare, no tuition fees, much less crime etc.

To add, the wages they earn from working a job are far better, too. 

Similarly, the social system includes services like fire departments, police departments, military and national guard services, maintenance of public properties like parks and community pools. Libraries are included, too. Public schools! All of these are social (socialist) programs that depend upon funding from taxes, donations, and fundraisers. 

[soullessheartofsteel]

5 hours ago, Suzan said:

I've voted in 10 presidential elections. From Johnson to Trump. I.ve lived the consequences. I just stated facts.

 

This means you've been alive to see America's economy fundamentally change over the decades, from an industrial-based economy to a largely service-based one. You saw the transition from leaded gasoline to unleaded, the phasing out of asbestos from buildings, seatbelts becoming mandatory. Those asbestos miners, processors, and installers lost their jobs when asbestos was banned, and it is a shame that they and their families likely struggled before finding new prospects in different industries. But what was the alternative? Continuing to install asbestos in new buildings just so these people could keep their jobs? Oil, like asbestos, is unsafe and we cannot sustainably continue using it at the rate we are without destroying ourselves. And even if burning oil didn't release dangerous CO2, and spills weren't dangerous, we'd run out of it eventually and have to make the switch to solar or hydroelectric anyways.

 

I'm young. I only have the faintest memories of a time when the rain fell with regularity every winter, and no memories of a time when a high school diploma could get you full-time work. You've seen what 57+ years of these policies has given us. I wasn't even alive to see them written, yet here I am living with those consequences. It's not just you who has to deal with them, you know. I have very healthy lungs despite living in a city with truly filthy air, thanks to being a swimmer and lucky genes, but those wildfires last year had me hacking and coughing like a dying cat. The smoke got so thick you couldn't see 10 feet in any direction, and our buildings turned grey from the soot. COVID wouldn't have torn through our country this way if our government had restocked our PPE from the swine flu epidemic, and provided adequate financial support for those under lockdown, and now a whole generation of young 20- and 30-somethings is dealing with long-term fatigue, lung scarring, and shortness of breath, among other symptoms. Do you remember polio? And college used to be something you could pay for with a summer job. Now it saddles our newest entrants to the workforce with tens of thousands of dollars of debt they'll never be able to pay off with jobs they can't find.

 

I'm glad that you care about blue-collar workers and labor rights. We do need to support those working in the oil industry as we make the shift away from fossil fuels-- free training, top consideration for hiring, financial support as they change careers. We need to support our workers in general, too, especially as this pandemic costs waitstaff, bartenders, and cooks their jobs. The party you vote for does not intend to do any of this.

 

EDIT: And Suzan, if someone is able to give you proof of what they're saying is true, it is no longer a matter of opinion like "is living in the city or country nicer?" or "are tacos or ribs better?". If whether an economic sector is growing or not has become a subject of debate, there has been a fundamental breakdown in understanding what a fact is. And if anyone is insulted by your comments, it's because you come here in bad faith to give sarcastic comments on recent developments, usually just a few days after slinking away in a huff, swearing to never come back, when the general response from other members in the thread is, of course, negative. Like I said in a previous post the last time you left, you're clearly not coming here to be productive and civil, and finding a site online where people share your views will likely be a more positive experience for you. You're a mature adult, and I hate to say it, but you should know better.

Edited January 22, 2021 by soullessheartofsteel

[trystan]

5 hours ago, Astreya said:

We live in a time where renewable energy is a growth industry where far more jobs are created

years ago, when my older daughter was still in high school (she graduated high school back in June of 2015), hubby had said/suggested/speculated that the sector of jobs that was probably growing the fastest was renewables/reuseables/green energy.  and it probably still is, but after the election of 2016, all that seemed to go *poof* in a fossil-fuel industry smoke-stack.  i say "seemed to" because, while it was trying to take the limelight, trump and his cronies kept shoving it back in the dark. (and both daughters are working with theatre anyway )

 

@soullessheartofsteel - really tbh, the only trump supporters i'm aware of are white people - some members in the family of the boyfriend of younger daughter - and my boss. my boss is a unique case, she reminds me of the narrator from Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal. i can explain for anyone who doesn't know  

[soullessheartofsteel]

@trystan Oh for sure; I just live in a very ethnically diverse area so I have more opportunity to see conservative POC. Usually it's, like, the parents or grandparents of the people I know since they're more traditional/conservative. My own mother liked Trump because she's a traditional Christian conservative so even though she disliked his general demeanor, she liked him blocking immigration (despite being an immigrant) and trying to get rid of abortion (despite being a nurse).

Edited January 22, 2021 by soullessheartofsteel

[trystan]

@soullessheartofsteel - i live in a diverse area, but my circles of travel aren't as diverse as i'd like.  we're pretty sure my mother-inlaw voted for trump in 2016, but mayyyybe Biden in 2020. my mother, on the other hand, white, Jewish grandma (she's 75) with a very snarky sense of humor.... my dad's memory started slipping around 2015 (i think).... we think that's about the time she started getting my dad's sense of humor and wit, too.  Dad started really declining late summer of 2019  and he died at the end of April 2020... but he definitely lives on in my mom.  the latest example? mom was all for a 21-gun salute to trump leaving the white house... just have the guns pointing AT him!  

 

....anyway....

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by trystan
clarification

[purpledragonclaw]

11 hours ago, Suzan said:

Look. I'm old. I've spend decades reading and debating and talking out of turn. So, good on you for all your staticts and facts. Good  for you. Good to be so smart! I mean that. But if someone else makes a comment and you seem to be insulted you need to be tolerant and respectful with others. This is all controversy at best. I never said it was "bad". My morals and opinions are just as valid as yours. I've voted in 10 presidential elections. From Johnson to Trump. I.ve lived the consequences. I just stated facts. The pipeline is over. Gone. Between the covid mess and thousands of unemployed pipeline workers,  people are suffering. Homeless and hungry. and that's a fact. 

 

 

 

. 

 

I'm not insulted by your comments. I understand people have different viewpoints on subjects. The disagreements I've seen have been respectful. However, I draw the line at tolerating blatant racism and xenophobia when I see it. You have also not backed up any of your statements with proof, or sources, so while they may be facts to you, they sound more like opinion.

 

Yes, the pipeline is over. I'm very happy for the tribes that fought against it for years succeeding in getting it shut down. Oil is going to go the way of coal, and as soulless pointed out, now is the time to invest in renewables. Invest in energy sources that are good for the overall life of our planet, so we can leave the world in a better state for future generations.

 

Also, I don't understand what your age has to do with this. I know people older than you who have more liberal opinions and are more open-minded, and I've known people much older than you who are more conservative. 

[Fuzzbucket]

14 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

I'm not insulted by your comments. I understand people have different viewpoints on subjects. The disagreements I've seen have been respectful. However, I draw the line at tolerating blatant racism and xenophobia when I see it. You have also not backed up any of your statements with proof, or sources, so while they may be facts to you, they sound more like opinion.

Very much this. There's no evidence I can find for any of it.

 

14 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Yes, the pipeline is over. I'm very happy for the tribes that fought against it for years succeeding in getting it shut down. Oil is going to go the way of coal, and as soulless pointed out, now is the time to invest in renewables. Invest in energy sources that are good for the overall life of our planet, so we can leave the world in a better state for future generations.

This too. We HAVE to get past fossil fuels. And there are huge opportunities in the electric car industry, to name but one.

 

14 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Also, I don't understand what your age has to do with this. I know people older than you who have more liberal opinions and are more open-minded, and I've known people much older than you who are more conservative. 

 I am 99% sure I am older than you, and I can't see what either of our ages has to do with anything. I know some offensively redneck racist youngsters and some very liberal and open-minded oldies who recognise the value of the environment and of welcoming immigration and the diversity it brings to a country's culture. I'm really sad for you that you are missing all that.

[RainDear]

When 9/11 happened, I was home recovering from surgery. I turned the TV on just in time to see the towers collapse. I was stuck watching the event for hours with no one to talk to about it. I was not well enough informed and did not understand who we were going to go to war with - how to fight people who died in the attack. I was hoping we could avoid war. I went to different chat rooms trying to talk out my feelings, but everyone wanted war and they just "shouted" me down and I left each one more confused, frightened and hurting than before. Then I found a chat room where I found someone who was willing to have an adult conversation with me about it. He explained some of the things I didn't know and let me express my opinions without judgement or anger. The experience was very comforting and healing, and I thank God that I found him. Sometimes different opinions are not Right/Wrong, they are just different. 

 

When we have differing opinions here, we are usually civil to one another and I really value that. This is a safe place.