Meat

[Vexx]

I look at a steak and NOT think: "Oh No! A cow got shopped up so I can have this dinner."

I doubt anyone thinks that. At all. :l

 

Personally, if I realize the place that I'm buying meat from, say, tortures and abuses their animals regularly, I'd consider buying meat from elsewhere as to not support that kind of behavior. The market's large enough, it's not like you'd have to work real hard at it.

Not to mention in my eyes, animals > humans. People suck. x\

[deanna_nightshade]

I look at a steak and think: "dinner".

I look at a steak and NOT think: "Oh No! A cow got shopped up so I can have this dinner."

But it doesn't have to be that extreme. Like I said, I understand that it's not going to be at the front of everyone's mind, but if you don't care, that implies that the suffering of animals is just irrelevant to you. I'd hope that most meat eaters would prefer the animals they eat to suffer as little as possible.

 

So, I guess this is the reason I have a hard time imagining what goes through a vegetarian's mind when they see someone eat, or are served meat to eat.

 

Keep in mind that not all vegetarians are vegetarian because of moral or animal rights concerns. I'm concerned about the treatment of animals, but I'm vegetarian because I just don't like meat. I hate the taste and it makes me feel sick. If I liked it, I'd eat it.

 

I don't care if other people eat it or not, but I do think meat eaters should have some respect and concern for the animals that died to provide their food. I have concern and respect for the animals that provide my eggs and dairy products. If we're evolved enough to understand that animals might suffer when we use them for food, we're evolved enough to not be jerks about it.

[Zarrexaij]

And what's the way the world ought to be, and how can you claim that your view is the legitimate one?

...where the did I say my view was the only legitimate one? No, really, please burn down your straw man.

 

Someone who says that it's obviously wrong or silly for me to be vegetarian because we're "naturally" omnivores is invoking the is-ought fallacy and robbing me of my agency.

 

And I for one not only think "This cow died so I could eat," I think "This cow suffered in a pen in crowded conditions being fed antibiotics so it wouldn't die and then died in horrible pain from living in terrible conditions so I could eat."

 

We sociologists tend to think of these connections.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Zarrexaij

[Vexx]

It's the natural order of things, given humans are omnivores.

 

However, I hate the taste of it...try to get me to eat prime rib, sirloin steak, filet mignon?...a hamburger, roast beef, or beef wellington? Heh. Yeah. I'd rather starve, honestly. Friends look at me funny when they find out; ah well, more for them.

 

I can stand dried out stuff like beef jerky, or highly-processed pepperoni, but that's about it. Chicken is sometimes okay, but it literally makes me sick if I eat too much of it (more than about a half-cup full).

Zarrexaij, may I ask where in this post you saw that it was considered wrong or silly of you to be vegetarian?

Or did you just quote a later post when directing it at someone else/everyone in particular? (I myself tend to do that, may as well ask.)

 

Honestly, I have yet to really see anyone calling any vegetarian wrong. Just someone stating they think that they will eat meat because they believe humans are meant to be omnivores. Not that anyone vegetarian is wrong for not following the same belief.

Such as... I just said people suck. I didn't say you suck, but overall... humans do suck.

[Zarrexaij]

Zarrexaij, may I ask where in this post you saw that it was considered wrong or silly of you to be vegetarian?

Or did you just quote a later post when directing it at someone else/everyone in particular? (I myself tend to do that, may as well ask.)

 

Honestly, I have yet to really see anyone calling any vegetarian wrong. Just someone stating they think that they will eat meat because they believe humans are meant to be omnivores. Not that anyone vegetarian is wrong for not following the same belief.

Such as... I just said people suck. I didn't say you suck, but overall... humans do suck.

I don't mean wrong in the ethical, moralistic sense; I mean wrong as in, unnatural.

 

The implication that "being an omnivore is the natural state of being" is... well... anything else isn't.

[Vexx]

I don't mean wrong in the ethical, moralistic sense; I mean wrong as in, unnatural.

 

The implication that "being an omnivore is the natural state of being" is... well... anything else isn't.

:l I really wouldn't care too much about being considered 'natural' or not, considering the way human beings live their lives from day to day. Not even looking at diets, either.

 

Really, I think we were built to be able to eat both. So I do. Doesn't mean I have to, that it's the only way people were meant to be, it just means I'm capable of it. Naturally, I'd take advantage of my abilities to eat both vegetables and meat. :b Maybe that's not how that person meant it, but that's how I'm taking it. I suppose it's how you read things sometimes.

Honestly, I'd love to stick to one side myself- meat. Veggies never tasted right with me.

[Zarrexaij]

Honestly I just get tired of hearing how humans are omnivores. Humans also have the ability to actively choose what they eat, much like omnivorous bears that can easily be either carnivorous or herbivorous.

 

also I'm tired and cranky so don't read into my hostility too much. Well, I'm also grumpy, it's just I don't try to direct it at people.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Zarrexaij

[Kamak]

...where the did I say my view was the only legitimate one? No, really, please burn down your straw man.

 

Someone who says that it's obviously wrong or silly for me to be vegetarian because we're "naturally" omnivores is invoking the is-ought fallacy and robbing me of my agency.

Let's look at your original post, shall we?

 

*sigh* Is-ought fallacy

 

Just because something is, doesn't mean that is the way it ought to be.

 

They claimed that being omnivorous is natural for humans, and you claimed that just because it's natural, doesn't mean that it ought to be natural.

 

If that member's post was a fallacy, it would be more akin to a naturalistic fallacy ("being an omnivore is natural, thus it is the correct diet to live on.") than to the is-ought fallacy. However, just because they think being an omnivore is natural doesn't mean that they are condemning your practice of being a vegetarian as "obviously" wrong. They didn't even mention vegetarians, in fact, all they did was state that being an omnivore is normal for humans, which it is, the majority of the human race is omnivorous.

 

And even if they came out and said that being a vegetarian was unnatural, so what? Piercings aren't natural, tattoos aren't natural, dying your hair isn't natural, and yet plenty of people do so and, for the most part, aren't bothered for doing it. In fact, even animals conduct in "unnatural" behavior, so if anything, acting unnaturally is in itself a natural way for animals (including humans) to behave.

 

And I for one not only think "This cow died so I could eat," I think "This cow suffered in a pen in crowded conditions being fed antibiotics so it wouldn't die and then died in horrible pain from living in terrible conditions so I could eat."

 

We sociologists tend to think of these connections.

 

Must suck for you then. Frankly, thinking that way makes too many assumptions. Not all meat companies pump their animals up with antibiotics in crowded pens with terrible conditions and being in pain. Yes, some do (rarely all of the above conditions though, usually a mix and match), but it would be ridiculous to claim that all companies that don't expressly say "free range" or "hormone/antibiotic free" on the package horribly abuse their cattle.

 

I don't give into the whole free range bull**** that stores try to push on you. The meat tastes the same, and locally they've found that stores have been purposefully labelling their own brand of meat as "free range" as an excuse to make more money (and because the "real" free range meat had sold out... and they just HAD to fill the demand). The term "free range" has enough grey area to begin with, and often the animals will be treated the same as they would in non-free range conditions. This is just a way to get people to fork over more money to clear their conscience of "helping the evil corporation", while meanwhile eating meat that still came from an animal that lived a life solely to die and be consumed. If anything the people who try to clear their conscience by saying "well, at least they lived a happy life, so I don't feel as bad about eating them" are the true monsters. I'm all for making animals comfortable during their lives, regardless of whatever reason they're going to die, but I don't legitimize my consumption of meat based on the quality of their lives. I eat meat because I love it, and I'm damn grateful to any animal that I consume. When I look at a steak, I think of how delicious it is, and I feel proud of the animal that died so that I may have an enjoyable meal. I appreciate that the cows, even in death, are able to make me happy when I eat a burger, and when I die, I hope I can nourish the Earth and the cows the same way that they nourished me during my life. I don't feel bad about eating meat, because in death, I'll be returning the favor.

 

I don't mean wrong in the ethical, moralistic sense; I mean wrong as in, unnatural.

 

The implication that "being an omnivore is the natural state of being" is... well... anything else isn't.

 

Omnivores eat plants and animals. If you eat solely animals, it's still natural, as animals are one sub-section of being omnivorous (almost like how all squares are rectangles). If you eat solely plants (vegetables and fruits), again it's still natural.

 

About the only thing I'd consider that wouldn't be "natural" under that is if you ate rocks... which frankly WOULD be unnatural (sorry rock eaters).

 

Honestly I just get tired of hearing how humans are omnivores. Humans also have the ability to actively choose what they eat, much like omnivorous bears that can easily be either carnivorous or herbivorous.

 

Many people are happy to be omnivores, this doesn't mean that they're "sheep" and that it's the correct way for everyone to live, but if the majority of people are happy being omnivores, why shouldn't they? Just because people can choose to be solely carnivorous or herbivorous doesn't mean they have to choose.

 

It's like the argument with feminists. Many believe that women should choose careers other than being a "domesticated" housewife, but many women ENJOY being housewives. It isn't that they're not making a choice, or that they're just going with society expects of them, they're actively making the choice to be housewives.

 

And besides, being omnivorous is like having the best of what both sides have to offer...

 

-K-

[crazywargod]

Honestly I just get tired of hearing how humans are omnivores. Humans also have the ability to actively choose what they eat, much like omnivorous bears that can easily be either carnivorous or herbivorous.

 

also I'm tired and cranky so don't read into my hostility too much. Well, I'm also grumpy, it's just I don't try to direct it at people.

Well the cold hard truth is humans ARE omnivores. You can't really change that. As far as I know anyway. Even if you refuse to eat meat you are STILL an omnivore. Vegetarion=/=Herbevore. You really have to get used to that. Anybody who says we are supposed to eat meat is not lieing. It is because of advances in medicines and herbs that vegetarians can live as healthy as people who eat meat. We are supposed to eat meat because of nutrients found in them that we NEED to survive and be healthy. We were not meant to be herbevores or carnivores. We need nutrients in meat to survive and be healthy but there are also nutrients in vegetables we need to have in order to survive and be healthy. So when somebody says we are omnivores and it is silly to be a vegetarian, while being rude and disrespectful, has some truth. I'm not saying in ANY way to not be vegetarians If you want to be a vegetarian be my guest. More for me. I am simply saying the statement is rude and disrespectful but it has truth that cannot be denied.

[Kestra15]

I don't mean wrong in the ethical, moralistic sense; I mean wrong as in, unnatural.

 

The implication that "being an omnivore is the natural state of being" is... well... anything else isn't.

So perhaps you would prefer "being an omnivore is a natural state of being" then?

 

And it is a plain biological fact that humans are omnivorous. Yes, you are correct that we have the choice not to follow an omnivorous lifestyle, but push comes to shove the human body generally has the ability to process meat.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Kestra15

[Eruru]

I love meat, and I will fight to the death for my right to eat it. I would prefer the animals be treated as humanely as possible, and don't suffer, but I don't think it's wrong to eat it. I think people who chose not to eat meat have every right to make that choice, and it should be respected. But I don't think anyone has a right to tell me what I can and can't eat.

[Zarrexaij]

Because I totally ****ing said anyone who isn't vegetarian is a sheep. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you really like doing that do you? Pretending to know who I am and all.

 

All I said that I am vegetarian. Nothing else. Now, will people stop picking apart what I saw and claim I am acting like I am in any way superior? 'Cause I did nothing of the sort. It's a ****ing choice

 

why the did I ever come back to this place

Edited August 29, 2010 by Zarrexaij

[Cavedragon49990]

Meat, Should it be eaten?

I'm certain that I will not eat meat. I can't eat it raw, I fear E. Coli. But hey, I can eat a dinner without meat. I'm cool with that. I don't care if it was once a living creature, despite my want to be a vet. Here's a scenario where I would NOT eat meat:

*hands me a sickly looking piece of meat* Here you go.

 

But I WILL eat my meat.

[RheaZen]

I'm certain that I will not eat meat. I can't eat it raw, I fear E. Coli. But hey, I can eat a dinner without meat. I'm cool with that. I don't care if it was once a living creature, despite my want to be a vet. Here's a scenario where I would NOT eat meat:

*hands me a sickly looking piece of meat* Here you go.

 

But I WILL eat my meat.

Wot bout sushi?

[Ran]

Humans are omnivores. Plain and simple truth. But that doesn't mean that everyone has to stick to how nature originally made us; part of what makes us human is our ability to make such choices.

 

I do eat meat, I enjoy things like chicken fajitas and home-made burgers and tuna-steaks and the occasional bacon sarnie. I also enjoy eating vegetables and fruit.

 

I question myself extremely often on the ethics of eating meat, because I am a life-long animal lover. It's not wrong to eat meat, morally or ethically. It's nature. But I think it's wrong to support the trade where the animals are treated horrendously before being slaughtered; battery farms, some veal farms, etc etc.

 

An animal that has lived a wholesome, healthy, cared-for and valued life and when the time has come, been given a painless death, will not only be what is morally and ethically right, but will of course also raise the quality of the meat.

 

There's nothing wrong with vegetarians or vegans or people who eat meat. They just choose different lifestyles.

[TheDarkCynder]

Wot bout sushi?

I, personally, wouldn't eat any meat, poultry, or fish that isn't cooked to the required standards to be considered 'cooked'. I don't like eating things raw, I don't want to.

[LadyNightshade]

Wot bout sushi?

After you get food poisoning from sushi for the first time, you never eat it again.

 

(Used to be a big consumer of sushi)

[Kamak]

Because I totally ****ing said anyone who isn't vegetarian is a sheep. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, you really like doing that do you? Pretending to know who I am and all.

 

All I said that I am vegetarian. Nothing else. Now, will people stop picking apart what I saw and claim I am acting like I am in any way superior? 'Cause I did nothing of the sort. It's a ****ing choice

 

why the did I ever come back to this place

when did I say that you said that omnivores are sheep? I'm talking about the people who ascertain that omnivores are content to not make a choice or live by the norms of society instead of eating what they want for the reasons they want to.

 

Quit taking every word as a personal attack on you, and calm down.

 

These topics are meant to debate opinions and help people understand the other sides of debates that they may not know. If you don't want people to debate your opinion, then why post? :/

 

-K-

[Nectaris]

Wot bout sushi?

Meh, I barely care for cooked fish, the idea of sushi is unappealing to me. I would rather eat raw or nearly raw red meat, for all its risks, than eat raw fish

[Alpha1]

It is because of advances in medicines and herbs that vegetarians can live as healthy as people who eat meat.

Huh? A vegan only needs to worry about B-12.

 

when did I say that you said that omnivores are sheep? I'm talking about the people who ascertain that omnivores are content to not make a choice or live by the norms of society instead of eating what they want for the reasons they want to.

 

Quit taking every word as a personal attack on you, and calm down.

 

These topics are meant to debate opinions and help people understand the other sides of debates that they may not know. If you don't want people to debate your opinion, then why post? :/

 

-K-

You quoted Zarrexaij, and it reads as if it was directed towards him.

[RheaZen]

Huh? A vegan only needs to worry about B-12.

Wot about protein and iron and such?

[Nectaris]

Wot about protein and iron and such?

Seconding this. Even just vegetarians can have trouble sometimes getting the necessary nutrients. Being located in a small town, a friend had to give up being a vegetarian while in college because the town could not provide the same stuff that bigger towns did, and was not able to maintain iron levels naturally.

 

It isn't necessarily just modern herbs and medicines that have made it possible, it is modern shipping that has.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Nectaris

[LadyNightshade]

Wot about protein and iron and such?

I know you can get protein from beans and nuts, you have to eat a lot of them to get the right amount of protein though.

 

I know some veggies have iron, again - you have to eat a lot of them on a daily basis.

 

 

Most vegetarians have to have a vitamin supplement to continue their diet (healthily).

 

 

 

I don't eat red meat (don't like the texture, taste) so I lack on a lot of the stuff that comes with it (my mom is the same way, but my dad refuses to bend for us so my mom and I get stuck many dinners just eating veggies and fruit - gets obnoxious).

 

I have low blood iron because of my diet choice, and have had problems with it (the blood iron), so I have to take vitamins everyday to fill in the missing stuff I need.

[crazywargod]

Ah thank you for clarifying that.

[LadyNightshade]

The American Dietetic Association considers "appropriately planned" vegan diets "nutritionally adequate",but poorly planned vegan diets can be deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,, iron, vitamin D,calcium, iodine and omega-3 fatty acids. These deficiencies have potentially serious consequences, including anemia,rickets and cretinism in children, and osteomalacia and hypothyroidism in adults.

 

 

Here be a better thing of information on that (for Vegans)

 

 

My opinion if you want to be any sort of specialized diet, you gotta do your research so you don't harm yourself doing that.

 

 

I know folk who went Vegan, and they end up sick because they're not covering everything they need in their diet.