Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[TikindiDragon]

Although, to a certain extent, Paul's writings could be used to argue *for* gay marriage. After all - he clearly wasn't of the opinion that marriage existed for procreation.

 

8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.

9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Surely allowing gay people to marry would actually help bring them closer to God? As they would no longer be burning with passion, but would have a godly marriage in which such desires could be contained.

 

Edit: excessive spacing.

 

Further Edit: If you read all of 1 Conrinthians 7 it emphasises that Paul considered marriage an acceptable outlet for sexual desire, but that he thought everybody would do better if they could supress such desire. From that thought it should follow that, while we should laud those who are able to control themselves and remain celibate, we should also allow marriage as acceptable way out for those who feel they cannot do so. Taking it one step further I would say that denying marriage to people who desire to do so would be 'putting a stumbling block' before them, and preventing them from having any other option but to sin.

Edited May 9, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[lightbird]

Yeah well, Paul was a real piece of work, a known misogynist, and nothing he preached should be taken seriously, as he injected all his personal fears, phobias, and mental health issues into his rhetoric.

Wasn't there also rumour about how he was asexual, too, and hence wouldn't see why someone else would crave sex? /shrugs

 

Congrats on Delaware!

 

Recently, there was an anti-gay marriage petition in my neighbouring country Estonia. Don't remember the exact figures, but they got way more signatures than they expected to get. I'm afraid that it's the same in Latvia as well. Gawd forbid that we against traditional gender roles (what jobs should men/women choose, that you shouldn't dress "like a **" if you're a guy, behaviour norms) - it's all apparently gay propaganda to justify pedophilia.

I hate the senseless homophobic slippery-slope attitude that is so prevalent over here.

 

Sorry for typos, I'm on a work computes that only runs IE and no spellcheck.

Edited May 9, 2013 by lightbird

[azaria]

I hate the senseless homophobic slippery-slope attitude that is so prevalent over here.

 

It's a lot the same here in New Zealand: even though gay marriage is now legal, there is still quite a majority refusing to accept that. Maurice Williamson, a politician, said in his debate that there was "a big gay rainbow" spread over his district - but then a comedian said afterwards "Yeah, well, he failed to mention the homophobic hailstorm over the rest of New Zealand." Unfortunately, true.

 

I've noticed that quite often (not for all of course) the younger generation or two are far more accepting of gay marriage and rights than the older generations are. probably because said older generations were mainly told how evil and wrong it was

[lightbird]

I've noticed that quite often (not for all of course) the younger generation or two are far more accepting of gay marriage and rights than the older generations are. probably because said older generations were mainly told how evil and wrong it was 

I would like to hope that in the future, it will be more like this, that being homophobic would be as outdated an opinion as being racist. (Link contains some swearing)

Edited May 10, 2013 by lightbird

[Fuzzbucket]

Although, to a certain extent, Paul's writings could be used to argue *for* gay marriage. After all - he clearly wasn't of the opinion that marriage existed for procreation.

 

8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.

9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Surely allowing gay people to marry would actually help bring them closer to God? As they would no longer be burning with passion, but would have a godly marriage in which such desires could be contained.

 

Edit: excessive spacing.

 

Further Edit: If you read all of 1 Conrinthians 7 it emphasises that Paul considered marriage an acceptable outlet for sexual desire, but that he thought everybody would do better if they could supress such desire. From that thought it should follow that, while we should laud those who are able to control themselves and remain celibate, we should also allow marriage as acceptable way out for those who feel they cannot do so. Taking it one step further I would say that denying marriage to people who desire to do so would be 'putting a stumbling block' before them, and preventing them from having any other option but to sin.

ACTUALLY Paul's teachings argue for the end of humanity.

 

It is better not to have sex at all.

 

Well, if you follow that route....

Edited May 10, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[TikindiDragon]

ACTUALLY Paul's teachings argue for the end of humanity.

 

It is better not to have sex at all.

 

Well, if you follow that route....

That was in there I did note he didn't think anyone should be having sex.

Edited May 10, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[Fuzzbucket]

That was in there I did note he didn't think anyone should be having sex.

But you didn't follow through to the end of the human race I think those who say they follow his teachings need to think about that !

[TikindiDragon]

But you didn't follow through to the end of the human race I think those who say they follow his teachings need to think about that !

Eh, a bit of a reduction in the human birth rate wouldn't be a bad thing.

[herobrine745]

I believe I am gay. I like 2 girls. Love is a better word.

 

I am an Atheist.

 

I have not told anybody yet.

 

Will this impact my friends? I think not. They can still be my friends.

 

I am only 12 years old.

[GeekyAngelGirl]

I believe Homosexuals should get married, my sister is infact a lesbian and while I may not be one I believe she should still have the rights she was promised growing up. "Oh you can't get married because you're gay." No one should be able to tell her what she can and can't do with her life if she wants to marry a woman then she sure as hell can, the "sanctity of marriage" has been broken since the first time they allowed divorce. Look back a few years when interracial marriage was illegal and then we realized how against the human rights constitution it was, eventually everyone will wake up and realize how wrong they are and will shut up and stay out of something that doesn't directly affect them, they act like gay marriage is directly attacking them when it isn't hopefully they will finally realize why it isn't affecting them and they can ignore it and go about their blissfully ignorant and unaware lives once more.

[senyi]

I believe I am gay. I like 2 girls. Love is a better word.

 

I am an Atheist.

 

I have not told anybody yet.

 

Will this impact my friends? I think not. They can still be my friends.

 

I am only 12 years old.

I don't think it would impact your friendship...they're your friends after all...

 

 

*mini disclaimer*

*this is input from a JHS student. please disregard if needed (I have little experience with these things However, if I was in your friends' shoes, I'd be friends with you regardless of your sexuality x3)*

 

*end mini disclaimer*

[Obscure_Trash]

The Minnesota House passed their same-sex marriage bill and the Senate is expected to follow suit. Fingers crossed!

 

The Governor of Illinois is pushing the House there to vote now on their same-sex marriage bill, hoping it will pass.

 

~

 

Good luck to those of you discovering and thinking about your own identities. <3

[Spelunker]

[spoiler ALERT]

I'm kind of sad. My family was watching the first episode of Downton Abbey.

 

When the two guys kissed in the bedroom, my sister squealed and said that was kind of gross. (She's young, I'm not giving a specific age to protect her privacy.) For reference, her usual reaction to (hetero) kisses on TV is "ooooOOOOOOOoooo..." in a teasing tone.

 

Should I be upset that society has taught my younger sister that homosexual PDAs are less "OK" than hetero ones?

[TCA]

I believe I am gay. I like 2 girls. Love is a better word.

 

I am an Atheist.

 

I have not told anybody yet.

 

Will this impact my friends? I think not. They can still be my friends.

 

I am only 12 years old.

If they don't want to be your friends because of that, then you can find better friends who will really care about you.

[Obscure_Trash]

[spoiler ALERT]

I'm kind of sad. My family was watching the first episode of Downton Abbey.

 

When the two guys kissed in the bedroom, my sister squealed and said that was kind of gross. (She's young, I'm not giving a specific age to protect her privacy.) For reference, her usual reaction to (hetero) kisses on TV is "ooooOOOOOOOoooo..." in a teasing tone.

 

Should I be upset that society has taught my younger sister that homosexual PDAs are less "OK" than hetero ones?

My sister went through a phase like that, too. IIRC around early middle school time. Through maturing and meeting more people, she was able to steer away from it. It is sad that kids have attitudes like these. I would just prod her with comments and gentle questions about it. "Why did you think that was gross?" "They look like they love each other to me." Etc. If she makes mean comments things like "That's not very nice" or just a simple "Well, I don't agree." Big siblings saying that kind of thing can make the little sibling think about things. My mom used to tell me that and I never believed it, but I've learned to walk a line with my sister. I am her older sister, and she does look up to me. I need to act like a sibling but not a parent. If I notice I'm pushing her too far, I back off, but she knows that I don't agree and it's going to be on her mind why I reacted in such a way. And it will make her gradually think about things. In the same vein, I do keep an open mind and think about the things that bother her that perhaps I'd never thought about before I don't know your own family dynamics, but that's the approach I'd try. Just because she's reacted like this once doesn't mean she'll be a raging heterosexist the rest of her life. It really means that it's probably not a topic your family has brought up with her and, at school, it's probably nothing they've discussed in the open. She may not know anybody who's out and may be at that age where everyone thinks it's awesome to negatively call things gay and such. Just try to communicate with her and get her to start thinking about things like that. :3

[Spelunker]

My sister went through a phase like that, too. IIRC around early middle school time. Through maturing and meeting more people, she was able to steer away from it. It is sad that kids have attitudes like these. I would just prod her with comments and gentle questions about it. "Why did you think that was gross?" "They look like they love each other to me." Etc. If she makes mean comments things like "That's not very nice" or just a simple "Well, I don't agree." Big siblings saying that kind of thing can make the little sibling think about things. My mom used to tell me that and I never believed it, but I've learned to walk a line with my sister. I am her older sister, and she does look up to me. I need to act like a sibling but not a parent. If I notice I'm pushing her too far, I back off, but she knows that I don't agree and it's going to be on her mind why I reacted in such a way. And it will make her gradually think about things. In the same vein, I do keep an open mind and think about the things that bother her that perhaps I'd never thought about before I don't know your own family dynamics, but that's the approach I'd try. Just because she's reacted like this once doesn't mean she'll be a raging heterosexist the rest of her life. It really means that it's probably not a topic your family has brought up with her and, at school, it's probably nothing they've discussed in the open. She may not know anybody who's out and may be at that age where everyone thinks it's awesome to negatively call things gay and such. Just try to communicate with her and get her to start thinking about things like that. :3

Thanks, Sock, I will. :3

[Katedj]

Hey Everyone,

I'm going to try and add my two cents, not sure how it will come out.

So I haven't read all of the 154 pages, but I did read several and here were the themes I picked out

 

Christianity/Religion isn't enough reason (in the views of many people here) to not allow gay marriage

 

And then there's a lot of debate over things like how being a gay/lesbian works and how Christianity/other religions come into it and what's going on in the past and right now.

 

 

 

To be honest, I am torn. I love people. I do my best in my day-to-day life to support them and help them. No one has ever told me personally they were gay or lesbian. But I don't think that I would have much of a reaction. I would definitely still be their friend, I might be a little curious though. But I'm curious about political views and religious views just as much...so hopefully they would figure that out. Anyway, I have been called a lesbian for being very athletic, and later because my best friend is a girl, and when we were at our closest we would cuddle and hold hands. Spend the night together in the same bed. But we were never romantic. But as a straight person, I feel that I can understand what it would be like if I was a lesbian. Honestly, it would be a very minor change, I can tell. I know that my little sister would love me, as to the rest of my family I would have very mixed results. But that is somewhat beside the point.

 

Anyway, I am torn because I do believe in God and the Bible as the Living Word. I know that I still have a lot to learn from it, I have yet to even read it all the way through, but I understand enough to have my faith. So here is my hope, I hope to help people understand why the religious side is such a big deal to some people.

 

So here is my thinking (or beliefs, we'll see ^^)

God created people. He made sex, a weekly holiday (the sabbath), and food. At some point along the line, we trespassed against God and suddenly we couldn't stop. All of the horrible stuff we see today started happening. At some point along the line, God let people do whatever they wanted and gay/lesbian relationships started. But because God is love, he most definitely still cares about them. Now there are definitely clear points in the bible where it's including homosexuality in it's lists of bad things (along with a bunch of other things that people do that just suck when people do them). Now God said he was coming back, and that people will have been doing wrong. As a Christian, I'm trying to live with the command to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with my God. The question for me then is what is just? Because if I determine that it is just for any human to love another human romantically, then I need to support that. But if I determine that homosexuality is that person's personal struggle, like lying is for a liar and murdering a murderer, then I need to follow through with what I have seen as right. Because here's the implications, if I don't do what I have seen as the right way, then God is going to hold me personally responsible for my actions. As he will everyone. These are things that affect eternity, (in my eyes), so I can't just drop it out of the equation as a non-factor. For me it must be wrestled with, and it may be wrestled one way or the other, but I can't just let it go.

 

 

 

Anyway, I will be around to answer questions if any arise.

[Fuzzbucket]

[spoiler ALERT]

I'm kind of sad. My family was watching the first episode of Downton Abbey.

 

When the two guys kissed in the bedroom, my sister squealed and said that was kind of gross. (She's young, I'm not giving a specific age to protect her privacy.) For reference, her usual reaction to (hetero) kisses on TV is "ooooOOOOOOOoooo..." in a teasing tone.

 

Should I be upset that society has taught my younger sister that homosexual PDAs are less "OK" than hetero ones?

Yes.

 

Since you ask.

 

 

[brairtrainer]

-snip-

Maybe I can help offer you some insight. Please note I'm going to hit you very hard with an evolution based reasoning, which doesn't conflict with my belief in God or Jesus, but I know it does put some people off.

 

Keeping with recent discoveries, there are somethings about gay men and women that are different from straight men and women biologically (some articles on this here and here). So they were created differently from the start. If God is an all loving God he would not deny these individuals the love of another person, a God who would deny it does not seem to be an all loving god to me.

 

There are other studies that have concluded that while being gay may be detrimental to men from an biological(spreading genes) stand point, it seems to make female relatives more fertile if the women inherit it (meaning higher reproductive success for the family. An explaination here.)

 

Getting back to faith, allow me to tie some stuff I just stated from an evolutionary stand point to stories in the bible. The story of Adam and Eve, for example starts with God creating the world. The theory of evolution and the story of God creating the world are eerily similar to just be coincidence, and fossils that have been dated support the theory.

 

God created night and day (sun with the planets orbiting), God created the oceans, and then land began to form (earths begining was a sea that encouraged the development of cells), God then made life in the sea (single cells becoming multicellular organisms), then life on the land (plants adapted, followed by animals that adapted to not needing gills). Then finally man came. While the story in the bible happens in seven days, how do we know that a day for god in that time is different from a day that we expirence? I personally believe though that the story of creation is told in a week setting so as to explain why we should rest one day a week, and that God instead took much longer fashioning the world, intelligent design.

 

The passages conserning the damning of homosexuals seem to all be in the old testiment, along with several rules that Christians no longer follow, like stoning women for having sex outside of marriage, not eating pork or shellfish, or not wearing clothes of mixed fibers. Many of those rules were done away with with the coming of Jesus, with the biggest rule being love thy neighbor and to follow the ten commandments. There is no area in the ten commandments that states that homosexuality is wrong.

 

Paul is a different story as people have been talking about in the past few pages. Paul was a man who had a vision, but operated mostly on his own and spoke out against percived wrongs with the church. Now some of those wrongs have merit, but if you take time to disect his writings you'll find that his writings on sexuality are very much like what other people have been stating.

[Wantdew]

To me, it's pretty much along the lines of whether or not you prefer Coke to Pepsi- it's there, it's likely due to an uncontrollable way of how your genes have lined up, and it's not something you should go pouring down other people's throats, just live and let live.

 

 

All that said, Dr. Pepper is the absolute best. >|

 

... hopefully that made sense

I get your point...

 

I still think that this whole arguing about who you like stuff is ridiculous. I really don't feel that there is any thing to debate about. You cant control the USA( or for that matter other people) by saying "the Bible says so". But another thing is that you shouldn't just blame genes for everyhing.

 

 

 

Coke is better than Pepsi though...

[Alpha1]

Surely allowing gay people to marry would actually help bring them closer to God? As they would no longer be burning with passion, but would have a godly marriage in which such desires could be contained.

 

According to Paul’s view, I don't think so.

 

Ephesians 5:30-32 […] for we are members of his body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. [Gen 2:23-24] This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one.

 

1 Corinthians 7:2 But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.

 

The story of Adam and Eve, for example starts with God creating the world. The theory of evolution and the story of God creating the world are eerily similar to just be coincidence, and fossils that have been dated support the theory.

 

It doesn’t get the sequence of events right. I’m baffled why anyone would try to claim it’s similar to an account of evolution. What’s “eerily similar” is other creation myths and stories.

 

ENKI AND NINHURSAG: A PARADISE MYTH

 

(ANET 37-41)

 

“The story takes place in Dilmun, a pure paradise where there is no sickness or death, “the lion kills not, the wolf snatches not the lamb,” etc. Enki (=Ea), the god of the wisdom and the sweet waters that bring life to the land, impregnates the goddess Ninhursag (=Nintu), the “mother of the earth”. She gives birth to the goddess Ninmu. Enki impregnates his daughter Ninmu, giving birth to Ninkurra. Enki impregnates his granddaughter Ninkurra, giving birth to Uttu. Before Enki can lay his hands on his great-granddaughter, Ninhursag advises her to reject Enki unless he brings a gift of fruit. Enki comes with fruit, she happily receives him, but instead of producing a child, she uses his semen to produce 8 different plants. Enki eats these, infuriating Ninhursag. She curses Enki, vowing never again to look upon him with the “eye of life.” Enki apparently begins to deteriorate and the Anunnaki, the Sumerian gods of the underworld mourn, and in the end Ninhursag is brought back to the gods.”

 

Similarities to Genesis:

 

--seduction with fruit

--the eating of trees brings a curse consisting of the withholding of life

 

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl....1.1&charenc=j#

 

GILGAMESH AND THE HULUPPU-TREE

 

(S. N. Kramer, Gilgamesh and the Huluppu-Tree, Chicago, 1938; cf. S. N. Kramer, Sumerian Mythology, 1944, 30f.). The second half of this myth is appended to the Gilgamesh epic in Tablet 12.

 

“Heaven and earth are separated, humans are brought into being, Anu and Enlil choose heaven and earth respectively for their realms, Ereshkigal has been given the underworld, and Enki has headed for the watery abyss beneath the earth. A tree planted by the bank of the Euphrates river was blown down by the wind and floated away on the river. Inanna (=Ishtar), the queen of heaven sees the tree and takes it home to her “holy garden” where she transplants it and tends it, hoping that when it is grown she can make a bed and a chair out of it. But when it is grown, she is prevented from using it because a serpent has made its home at the root of the tree, the Zû-bird has made a nest in the top of the tree, and the demon Lilith has made her house in the middle of the tree. Gilgamesh saves the day by killing the serpent with his ax, also frightening off both Lilith and the bird family. Gilgamesh cuts down the tree and gives it to Inanna for her bed and chair. Inanna makes two objects out of the tree—pukku from the roots and mikku from the crown—and gives them to Gilgamesh. One day these gifts fall into the underworld, and Gilgamesh is distressed not to be able to recover them. His companion Enkidu goes to rescue them, but is prevented from returning to the living. His spirit gives Gilgamesh a report on what the afterlife is like.”

 

Similarities to Genesis:

 

--tree with serpent

 

Babylonian Creation Myth: Enuma Elish

 

Divine spirits and cosmic matters coexist

Primeval chaos; war of gods against Tiamat (possible cognate for Hebrew word for "deep" i.e. deep seas at beginning of Genesis story)

Light emanates from the gods

Creation of firmament (dome)

Creation of dry land

Creation of heavenly lights (Moon, Sun)

Creation of humans

The gods rest and celebrate

 

I could go on….

Edited May 11, 2013 by Alpha1

[7Deadly$ins]

I get your point...

 

I still think that this whole arguing about who you like stuff is ridiculous. I really don't feel that there is any thing to debate about. You cant control the USA( or for that matter other people) by saying "the Bible says so". But another thing is that you shouldn't just blame genes for everyhing.

 

 

 

Coke is better than Pepsi though...

You seem to think most debating is pointless, so I don't really know why you hang around on debate threads. Anyway, in theory, the US is ruled by the people, and through voting you can change these outcomes. So yes, it's worth discussing.

[NixAyum]

You cant control the USA( or for that matter other people) by saying "the Bible says so".

Oh in theory, in an ideal world, you can't.

 

But that hasn't stopped a truckton of various politicians, religious officials, and people who pay to have obnoxious billboards put up* in this country.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Seriously there are like a dozen "my heart beats after 18 days!" and "Christians: Use it or Lose It: VOTE!" and "America needs a FAITH lift" on the highway around here it's ridic.

[Katedj]

Maybe I can help offer you some insight. Please note I'm going to hit you very hard with an evolution based reasoning, which doesn't conflict with my belief in God or Jesus, but I know it does put some people off.

 

Keeping with recent discoveries, there are somethings about gay men and women that are different from straight men and women biologically (some articles on this here and here). So they were created differently from the start. If God is an all loving God he would not deny these individuals the love of another person, a God who would deny it does not seem to be an all loving god to me.

 

The passages concerning the damning of homosexuals seem to all be in the old testament, along with several rules that Christians no longer follow, like stoning women for having sex outside of marriage, not eating pork or shellfish, or not wearing clothes of mixed fibers. Many of those rules were done away with with the coming of Jesus, with the biggest rule being love thy neighbor and to follow the ten commandments. There is no area in the ten commandments that states that homosexuality is wrong.

 

Paul is a different story as people have been talking about in the past few pages. Paul was a man who had a vision, but operated mostly on his own and spoke out against perceived wrongs with the church. Now some of those wrongs have merit, but if you take time to dissect his writings you'll find that his writings on sexuality are very much like what other people have been stating.

It doesn't put me off. ^^ I'm still here to learn.

 

So after having time to think about what I had written, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the issue for me might be less about what the Bible says about Gay Marriage, but more to do with my beliefs about how to interact with other people.

 

*sigh*

So much to learn about.

Was the flood worldwide or localized?

Since evolution is basically a fact now, what do I do with that? (I basically just learned that, it had always seemed like more of a theory to me, but I just learned that that is more misleading than anything)

How do I treat other people? (A lot of issues stem off of this one)

 

Plus a few other things to sort out that people have struggled with for ages, like

What is the meaning of life?

What is the meaning of my life?

But at least all that will give me a lot to do.

 

As to Paul and homosexuality in the New Testament, if I come upon anything of interest to this thread I may add it. But for now my ignorance is too great so I shall just listen. (Unless talked to ^^)

[Riverwillows]

When I was growing up, (Orthodox Roman Catholic) my mom taught me that the Story of Creation, and the Theory of Evolution, were basically the same story, just told from two different views: one spiritual, and one scientific.

 

It made sense to me then, and still does even now.