Abortion

[Infinis]

I agree that you all do not seem to be pro-abortionists and I apologize for the incorrect term usage.

 

I think our fetus/baby argument will never be resolved, because you believe it should be called a fetus because of your belief that it is not a living human, and I believe it should be called a baby/unborn child because of my belief that it is alive and human from the point of heartbeat.

 

Again, I'm not saying the child's life trumps the woman's life. It is not either/or here. It is not the child dies or the mother dies (in those cases that are this situation I think abortion is acceptable) It is the child dies or the mother is somewhat inconvenienced for 9 months then moves on with her life.

 

Yes I am Native American, but I was fortunate enough not to grow up on the res. I cannot say the same for a lot of my family members though. One of my Irish/Scottish descent family members allowed my mom, dad, and I to live on her farm for most of my life. I did spend a lot of time there though.

 

It has nothing to do with taking responsibility. I am not looking to punish anyone. I am talking about protecting life.

 

The "when a child is born it's suddenly a person" argument is rather odd. If it can feel pain when it's born it can feel pain when it's in the womb right before that.

Thank you.

 

No one is saying it isn't alive. A heartbeat does NOT equal humanity. Wolves and platypodes have heartbeats too, but I can't have wolf or platypus babies. Incidentally some tumors have heartbeats, but tumors aren't necessarily human either.

 

Pregnancy is not a simple inconvenience. Pregnancy and labor, even in this medically advanced age, are STILL some of the most dangerous things a woman can go through. Pregnancy puts tons of stress and hormonal changes on a body. Pregnancy can cause its very own set of medical problems too, including the potentially fatal preeclampsia and eclampsia (life threatening rises in blood pressure) and gestational diabetes. If the mother doesn't eat for two, the fetus can and will pull those nutrients away from its mother to keep itself alive. And in labor, you run the risk of tearing tissues down there, breaking pelvic bones (esp. in those with small hips), pelvic organ prolapses and other sometimes lasting problems. And let's not even get into the expenses of prenatal care, hospital stays for birth and problems, and the money that actually goes into raising the child.

TL;DR: pregnancy is a dangerous and life changing event and is nowhere near on par with "inconvenience."

 

Any time you deny a woman an abortion you are doing something with responsibility. Sometimes abortions ARE taking responsibility. Why on earth would anyone force a woman to carry a baby to term she knows she can't take care of? And don't suggest the adoption system - we have an entire set of horrifying and sad statistics regarding how bad that option really is.

 

Whether a fetus can feel pain in the womb is actually still under debate. It is true that after a certain point in development it has the sensory nerves for pain and a brain to process them, but whether it actually ever feels any pain is debatable. The fetus isn't even awake in the womb; it's...I guess in a state more akin to a coma patient? Maybe more like suspended animation.

It's not odd. You don't magically fall out of a uterus knowing not to touch a pointy nail or hot stoves because they'll hurt you. These are learned things - life experience. To me, life experience makes a person. No one is saying it's not alive, but I don't think those without life experience yet are people. Once it exits the womb, it begins to learn and get life experience.

 

Also, like most pro-"choice" people mention, there are babies who would have terrible, terrible lives. Maybe it's best to put them out of their misery before it even starts.

 

Why the quotations around choice?

 

But not many places like that exist. So, for those who can't get such good help, abortion should be legal. I have no problem with people who've gotten abortions feeling bad. They just need to be able to put it behind them. If they can't, too bad. I would still be friends with someone who had an abortion. But I wouldn't tell them that they're an aweful person, or that they did the right thing. If they felt really bad, I would tell them that they should be. But I would also tell them that I don't hold it against them because, since they were sorry, I would forgive them. Then we could get on with our lives.

 

No one should ever have to be shamed and hurt like this. No one should be told to feel bad about their choice on an abortion. There are plenty of women who are not sorry to have had abortion.

 

Why is it okay to shame and hurt women like this?

Edited November 15, 2013 by Infinis

[Kestra15]

Human life is defined in the medical community by a heartbeat and/or brain activity.

So wrong it hurts. Love, the medical community.

[sparkle10184]

My opinion is this.

 

I do believe it's a human life. BUT, as much as I feel abortion is wrong, it...should be legal. Wether it's legal or not, people are gling to get abortions. Better to do it safely so that only one person, the one with no thought process, is killed.

 

My church supports a pregnancy center where they help each individual with what they're going to do. They refuse to help anyone who won't look at an ultrasound of their baby. They try to do everything in their power to save the baby and the mother. I actually donated to them. I donated to humans...that's pretty huge for me.

 

But not many places like that exist. So, for those who can't get such good help, abortion should be legal. I have no problem with people who've gotten abortions feeling bad. They just need to be able to put it behind them. If they can't, too bad. I would still be friends with someone who had an abortion. But I wouldn't tell them that they're an aweful person, or that they did the right thing. If they felt really bad, I would tell them that they should be. But I would also tell them that I don't hold it against them because, since they were sorry, I would forgive them. Then we could get on with our lives.

 

Also, like most pro-"choice" people mention, there are babies who would have terrible, terrible lives. Maybe it's best to put them out of their misery before it even starts.

I'm not even going to comment on that pregnancy center since some people have already stated my exact opinion.

 

Wait, these are your friends you're talking about? You don't sound like much of a friend to them. Telling them they should feel bad? That's awful. If they already feel terrible, you telling them they should be is just going to make them feel worse. I can't believe you would say something like that to the person you call a friend. Or even anyone. Friends are suppose to love and care, and help each other. But here you are saying you'd just try to make them feel horrible about themselves. You aren't a friend by shaming someone. What you should be telling them is that you'll be there for them and that everything will be Ok. That's what friends are for.

[KageSora]

And I dare because that's the way I have been taught to think about such matters.

Then learn to un-think it.

 

Because it's a really, really, REALLY nasty and offensive thing. "I was taught to think that" is a excuse, that's like trying to say it's okay to insult somebody for race or sexual orientation because "you were raised to think that". No. Just because somebody else taught you to think something really nasty doesn't make it okay.

 

I sure as hell un-learned how to think that. I'm an ex-Catholic, "pro-life" in the proper sense of "wanting the best quality of life for both child and mother, and acknowledging and embracing the idea of abortion as the best option for some people"--aka, pro-choice to the pro-forced-birth crowd.

 

And there's a MASSIVE difference between THINKING something and saying/acting on it. If you think they should feel bad, that's one thing--but to TELL them that is actually a very cruel, terrible thing to do.

[Pokemonfan13]

My church supports a pregnancy center where they help each individual with what they're going to do. They refuse to help anyone who won't look at an ultrasound of their baby. They try to do everything in their power to save the baby and the mother.

They refuse abortion. They totally oppose it. They help the person either find out how to keep it or put it up for adoption.

So... They don't really help with whatever they're going to do because if the person wants an abortion they don't help. When I read your first statement I thought it was actually a decent center because it might dissuade from abortion but if the woman really wanted it they'd help. Wrong. At least represent it accurately.

 

And as to this:

"But not many places like that exist. So, for those who can't get such good help, abortion should be legal."

 

So it's good help to try to stop a woman who does not want the kid and might be physically and/or mentally damaged by having it from getting an abortion. Nice.

[Darkwolf001]

In my opinion I support abortion.

 

I do not find it hard to believe the box o' statistics since many of my friends often say that. I once sat down with one and asked him about his experience. He hated feeling unwanted and having to move from foster home to foster home was really rough. He was jealous of other people who had parents that would give presents on christmas and love on grad night. He told me of the time that he nearly committed suicide. When I asked what drove him to do that, he said it was because of this one kid picking on him because he never knew his parents.

 

I just can't understand why Pro-"force birth"ers come up to my college campus with shock presentations. They have to shut down the day care just so children do not see. A classmate of mine broke down in tears because she had an abortion. I had to help her get to her car and I stayed with her and comforted for the rest of the day. So, no I don't believe just anyone can just "get over" it and "move on" with their lives. It is a very hard decision to make.

 

I also do not like the fact that it is so hard to get a tubal ligation. I mean animals seem to have an easier time getting spayed and neutered. Often without their permission. Why does a woman have to fight tooth and nail for it?

Edited November 16, 2013 by Darkwolf001

[CanYouSeeTheseMoves]

I support abortion, no matter what my religion (although I really don't believe in it anymore) dictates. Teenage pregnancy is a big problem from where I come from. I know some people who couldn't pursue their dreams or finish their education because they had to take care of their child.

[Fuzzbucket]

I support CHOICE. Which means if a woman wants an abortion she should have that choice - legally and safely. And also of a woman does NOT believe in abortion, no-one should force her to have one.

 

And no-one on either side should guilt either one of these woman for their choices.

[Kelkelen]

I support CHOICE. Which means if a woman wants an abortion she should have that choice - legally and safely. And also of a woman does NOT believe in abortion, no-one should force her to have one.

 

And no-one on either side should guilt either one of these woman for their choices.

^ Yes. This. It's not my responsibility, nor is it any of my business, to make that choice for another person. But for the people who do make it, it should be made as safe as humanly possible.

 

Plus, it is MUCH easier to legislate for people's safety in a dangerous industry if it is legal. If abortion clinics are legal, then the conditions can actually be supervised, and held to standards. If they are illegal, then no one has any power to make them safer or cleaner, or to be accurate and honest with the information they give their clients.

[sparkle10184]

They refuse abortion. They totally oppose it. They help the person either find out how to keep it or put it up for adoption.

 

And I dare because that's the way I have been taught to think about such matters.

I said I wasn't going to respond to the pregnancy center thing, but I changed my mind...

 

That's not helping. That's destroying the mother's life and giving that baby a terrible future. It seems that many people against abortion only care about the fetus - once it's been born they don't give a crap and just move on to trying to stop another woman from getting an abortion. The adoption system is horrible. It is one of the worst settings for a child to grow up in. And another awful setting for a child is in the home of parents who don't love or want them.

 

But that doesn't make it any less offensive or rude. That is a terrible way to think. What if you were the person's only friend? And you told them they should feel bad about their choice? They might commit suicide.

[danegrrrl]

I support CHOICE. Which means if a woman wants an abortion she should have that choice - legally and safely. And also of a woman does NOT believe in abortion, no-one should force her to have one.

 

And no-one on either side should guilt either one of these woman for their choices.

This sums it up perfectly for me. Short and to the point.

 

Here's my story - This is going to be hard to post - I've never shared these things with anyone before. I apologize for the rambling I am prone to doing when I get to typing.

 

I grew up hating my life. Hating my parents, hating everything. My mother didn't want to be a mother, but she enjoyed using me as leverage against my father. She resented me, she resented the responsibility of me, she resented my father's attention and affections towards me.

 

When I was around 12 years old, after my father left again, I found a letter she had wrote to him. I am 38 years old now, but I will never forget what I read...In the letter, she was trying to lure him back by using me. Telling him I was a mistake she never wanted, and that I was his child to deal with. But he wouldn't come back because of her. No matter how much he loved me, he stayed away because if he came back, she made things worse on me.

 

As I aged, I attempted suicide several times, ran away, got in trouble, hated my life. I uttered the phrase "I wish I had never been born" so many times it became my mantra. My father came and went and came back again, and each time it took a little more of my heart. By the time I was old enough to move out, I felt like a worthless shell of nothing. My father had started getting physical with me over the most minor of things. Slamming me against walls, hitting me, choking me out. My mother egged him on. She told him I did horrible things just to see him hurt me. They were lies, but he listened to her because if he didn't act against me, she made his life hell.

 

Anyways, I guess my point is....I'll truly never know if I was a mistake or if it was another one of my mother's sick manipulations. I never told my parents I found that letter. Some things are best unanswered, but I feel like I know the answer in my heart. And though I'm "okay" now, I still feel like I should've never been born. I wish my mother would've had an abortion. No child should ever grow up feeling unwanted and unloved. If my mother would have have an abortion, I would've never endured what I endured. I just simply wouldn't have been.

 

And before anyone asks "Well aren't you glad you're alive now?" ... I'll go ahead and answer: I'm ambivalent. I've got good days and bad days, just as anybody else does. My father and I have repaired our relationship, as much as it could be repaired. My mother and I are civil, but we do not talk often. I moved away. I have chronic physical pain because my mother chose to drink while she was pregnant. I have bone and joint problems that I was born with. I was born premature and my lungs weren't fully formed. I will always have some degree of breathing problems. But none of that touches on the mental damage that knowing you weren't wanted causes. I have trouble forming relationships. I dated abusive guys who treated me the only way I knew how to be treated..what I thought I deserved because hey, if my parents treated me this way then it's normal, right? The last one tried to kill me. Like legitimately tried to end my life. I was in a coma for almost a week. I didn't care. I longed for death.

 

I have trust issues, anger issues, and I will always struggle with the demons in my head that tell me I'd have been better off dead. I have anxiety, I have seriously self destructive tendencies. I am EXTREMELY empathetic, but you would likely never know it - I am emotionally vacant to most people.

 

So yeah, I survived it. I'm alive. But define "alive"...

 

I will never agree with taking a woman's right to have an abortion away. There are too many children who grow up the way I did. My ex (the one that tried to kill me) was also sexually abusive. If he wanted to have sex and I didn't, that didn't stop him. I got pregnant. I really didn't think I could...I had been anorexic for so long that I no longer had periods. But I did. I had an abortion. I had a hysterectomy a few years later. I won't repeat the cycle. I feel no remorse about the abortion. I would've felt far worse bringing a life into this world that I am not emotionally equipped to handle. Nor could I love something that hate and anger and violence created.

 

So that's my story. And why, when I read people's post that imply people who have abortions are evil, or sick, or murders, I have to take a moment to remind myself that they probably haven't a CLUE about what leads someone down that road. The desperation, the fear, the sorrow....And if after reading my story, you still think I'm a murderer, well...all I can say is you can't call me anything that would hurt more than what I've been called before so, have at it.

 

(sorry for the novel. guess i've been holding this in for a while. )

[Slaskia]

*snip*

There's...only one thing I can say or do to that, Danegrrrl.

 

*hug* I'm so sorry you had to go through that....

[Kelkelen]

snip

...can I just send you some love?

 

<3

 

I'm so, so sorry to hear that you went through all of that. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like. Just... I just wish I could send good feelings and love and acceptance and hope straight through the computer and into your heart. :-(

[Pokemonfan13]

*hugglez danegrrrl*

 

Thank you so much for bearing your soul in that very touching description of why women should be allowed to abort unwanted babies.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[danegrrrl]

Thanks for the love and hugs. I didn't mean to spill my guts like that but it just all came gushing out.

 

I'm not ashamed of my decision, but I do take it personally when I read about people that are so gung ho to take the rights of another away. Had I been forced to carry that child to term, I can almost guarantee that I would have taken my own life. Hopelessness is a very powerful feeling and motivator. People who want to condemn other for choices they don't agree with need to consider that they don't always know as much as they think they do about the burdens another person carries.

[Cecona]

Wow... Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. I think it will really help people to understand more about why it's not right to force a woman to give birth when she doesn't want the fetus.

[Pokemonfan13]

Granted, some mothers may still be wonderful parents for a child they did not want to have, but the chances are still far too high that it will be a bad situation, and it's very very likely if the kid is put in the adoption system.

[CanYouSeeTheseMoves]

I support CHOICE. Which means if a woman wants an abortion she should have that choice - legally and safely. And also of a woman does NOT believe in abortion, no-one should force her to have one.

 

And no-one on either side should guilt either one of these woman for their choices.

DUDE. This. I just. YES!

[HeatherMarie]

*hugs danegrrrl. Just huuuugs*

 

I feel like I had a very productive talk about abortion IRL today. I was actually talking about the forums here, and how I like that it's a forum for a game but so many of us feel safe talking about real controversial topics as well. And we got to talking about abortion.

 

This woman is my godmother and I love her dearly, but she's deeply religious and started saying a bunch of stuff that I know isn't true (like that pro-choice people always try to use the "but what if it was rape?!" argument when that hardly ever happens). She honestly didn't seem to *know* the many different reasons women get abortions. So I brought her here, and specifically to Shiny's statistics. She had absolutely no idea, and we talked about it for a long time and I really felt like I was helping her see truths that she hadn't seen before.

[ShinyTomato]

*hugs danegrrrl. Just huuuugs*

 

I feel like I had a very productive talk about abortion IRL today. I was actually talking about the forums here, and how I like that it's a forum for a game but so many of us feel safe talking about real controversial topics as well. And we got to talking about abortion.

 

This woman is my godmother and I love her dearly, but she's deeply religious and started saying a bunch of stuff that I know isn't true (like that pro-choice people always try to use the "but what if it was rape?!" argument when that hardly ever happens). She honestly didn't seem to *know* the many different reasons women get abortions. So I brought her here, and specifically to Shiny's statistics. She had absolutely no idea, and we talked about it for a long time and I really felt like I was helping her see truths that she hadn't seen before.

I feel helpful now.

[Rachel72]

Its completely the girls choice, whether or not to have an abortion... It depends on many factors.

[Fuzzbucket]

Thanks for the love and hugs. I didn't mean to spill my guts like that but it just all came gushing out.

 

I'm not ashamed of my decision, but I do take it personally when I read about people that are so gung ho to take the rights of another away. Had I been forced to carry that child to term, I can almost guarantee that I would have taken my own life. Hopelessness is a very powerful feeling and motivator. People who want to condemn other for choices they don't agree with need to consider that they don't always know as much as they think they do about the burdens another person carries.

THIS.

 

And loads of hugs - that was a very brave post of yours. You are a very worth while member of society and don't ever forget that.

[Lila]

 

I just

[brairtrainer]

 

I just

Propaganda for the pro-life side. If they know so much then why is it that most studies have debunked their theories?

[Brite]

I'm also at lost. Plus I just met someone from my father's church who claims to be a real pro-lifer and doesn't judge but they're with an organization that is trying to abolish and ban abortion everywhere. Now THAT makes no sense.