The Fifth Element Lineage

[Fiona]

Or as encyclopedia information is released each holiday breed not already in the lineage could be re-evaluated.

[Grandmother_cathie]

I like the idea of magic being one of the components of all elements not just the life element but I think that it should only count as one plus in it's counter.

 

Seasonals effect the weather based on the season, they're only available at certain times of the year AND they use mana/are magical - put them in life.

Undines live in rivers and streams and have control over water AND they are magical - the magic is a point, but the water outweighs it - put them in water.

Brimstones live in dry earthy places, eat rocks and drink water high in minerals, and use minerals for protection. They don't use mana/magic, but the other things put them definitely in earth.

 

did any of that make sense?

 

[deblogan]

random thought...idea...ponder popped in my head...

what if LIFE additionally contained our current holiday dragons, who can only appear ONE time a year anywhere ever? holidays are magical. it would even out the categories a bit...

white, GoN (because of the limit per scroll and because you can't breed more? I dunno), heartseeker, pumpkin, winter maji, solstice, shadow walker, grave, desipis

 

there would have to be a stipulation about why only some holidays are allowed though :/

I like that random thought!

 

And...of course the holiday breed would still have to be vetted as "elemental" - "Holiday" simply determines the category, it doesn't guarantee inclusion...

[Pixxelation]

Figured I should fill this out, because it seems the Desipises will likely be added as Earth or Life :3

 

New Member

FORUM NAME: PieMaster

SCROLL NAME: PieMaster

TIME ZONE: EST/EDT (GMT-5)

 

I probably won't be doing much for the lineage besides breed elemental alt Desipis offspring (it'll be awhile because I have a toooon of IOUs >_>), but I figured I should still fill this out :3

[Fiona]

Welcome to the madness, Pie.

[Pink467]

Hiya and welcome Pie!

 

@cathie - Totally makes sense. So would breeds that ONLY have magic as a qualifier be in LIFE if they have 2-3 counters, or should they have at least one other category counter?

 

@all - does mana/magic in itself make a dragon Elemental? I personally would say no, since without the other 4 Elements Leeloo was just a slightly stronger than average person...I think lol. So that would make the Desipis a perfect example of mana + earth = life? I haven't seen encyclopedia info on the following breeds so I'm just going based on the dragon's page and doing a few hypotheticals:

magi - magic + no Elemental affinity = not eligible

black - magic + excellent night vision = Life eligible

white - magic + no Elemental affinity = not eligible, but we're stuck with them

daydreams - magic + live in the clouds = Life eligible

gray - magic + live in the sky = Life eligibile

 

 

I'm going to open the voting for how we should treat the LIFE category, moving forward...

1. Leave it as is, change nothing.

2. Leave it as is, but add a qualifier about mana/magic (courtesy of Fiona "Of or pertaining to magical, mental or spiritual control or consisting of magic in a way that is different from other breeds.")

3. Make it ONLY about mana/magic, move breeds that no longer fit to other categories.

4. Make it ONLY about mana/magic, move breeds that no longer fit to other categories, and move all eligible holiday breeds here.

5-?. Other suggestions

 

I think we pretty much have to make some changes with the encyclopedia release, so I'm pondering the last 3 options for now

[Lavinia]

I have one big concern in making the Life category wholly or partially about mana/magic - it is too omnipresent. Many dragons rely heavily on magic; all or almost all breeds seem to have some relationship with magic. Any boundary for 'this dragon relies very heavily on mana/magic' vs. 'this dragon just uses/has/interacts with mana/magic' would be almost impossible to define and compare against.

 

My viewpoint is that having mana/magic is one of the general traits of dragons - such as having wings or being alive - thus disqualifying it as a reasonable criteria for a category distinguishing a certain subtype. These general traits are there in almost all dragons, to varying extent and importance, but these are not adequate ways to split up dragons. For example, if we were trying to fit our DC creatures into the Pokemon type system instead of the 5th Element categories, almost every single one would be type Dragon. Yay? What good would that do us? Moreover, why do we think that Life and Magic are the same thing? Those seem to be two very different concepts in my mind. It would make more sense to me to define Life as dragons that are Alive than dragons that interact with Magic - both let almost every breed qualify on that point, but at least Alive has a stronger connection to Life than Magic has to Life.

 

I'm not against changing the definition of the Life category, but making the definition all or partly about mana/magic sounds like we would be able to argue compellingly for almost every breed that it is Life-eligible.

 

---

 

Also, are we doing 5ecret 5anta again this year? If so, I'm happy to organize it again.

[deblogan]

I really like your #4 for Life, Pink,

 

BUT...

 

We're basing this lineage on the movie The Fifth Element, and in that universe there was only ONE 5th Element: Leeloo.

 

Personally, I think we should move all the breeds out of Life and reassign them (arbitrarily if necessary) to other categories.

 

There should be only ONE breed in Life (and perhaps the category should be called "Leeloo" or "Fifth Element" instead of "Life"), and to make it as close to Leeloo as possible, I'd suggest that the breed should be Guardian of Nature.

 

My reasoning is:

1. We're limited to 3 GoN dragons apiece - after all, Leeloo was unique. (Ideally, we should only have one, but I'm happy to get to have 3 eventually )

2. GoN are, well, GUARDIANS - and ultimately, that's what Leeloo was: a guardian formed from all the elements to protect the earth from extinction.

 

Just a thought...

[Fiona]

I think the point of changing it is to be more in line with what Leeloo's role was in the original story and movie. She wasn't representing just life as a general principal. Everyone who is walking around could be said to represent life in that respect. She was something additional. In the movie she wasn't just a human being, she contained in her genetics all the definition of humanity itself. She had multi-layered DNA, rather than just the double helix that normal humans have, plus that DNA was perfect - without flaw. Most normal human's DNA contains random mutations that are mostly harmless but never-the-less flaws. She was the essence of spirit/magic/life. Her role was the preservation of the human species, against the forces of darkness. She was born to that role.

 

For our dragons in the Life category, I think option #5 suits me best. I don't think just being magical, even if strongly, should be enough to qualify them. There must be something else elemental about them. For example, whites are strongly magical. To qualify though, just saying magic doesn't work. In their case they have specialized magic that fits what I think should be another definition in the Life category - they are dedicated healers. (that's not part of the current definition of Life, but I rather think that being a force for good should be another qualifier. Leeloo's main purpose was the protection and preservation of humanity.) So for whites - 1. strongly magical 2. force for good (from the encyclopedia: They do not stay completely out of conflicts; they may get involved to the extent of taking care of those injured or issuing protective wards.) 3. By the nature of their magic they can live where otherwise the environment should be too harsh: (from the encyclopedia: Capable of surviving in extreme temperatures due to protective magic, though volcanoes and glacial regions are far from ideal environments.)

 

To continue the argument with some of Pink's examples:

Blacks: 1. strong magic - battle magic. Strong magic is one qualifier. 2. Superior night vision would be a qualifier, but in Life? Or Fire (light is in Fire, yes?) 3. Plus acidic saliva, which seems elemental to me. Should poison effects be in Life as an anti-effect?

Magi: 1. stong magic - location magic. Strong magic is one qualifier. 2. Can “see” the flow of magic as it is utilized—attempts to describe what it looks like fall outside human comprehension. - specialized magical comprehension - would fall into the magic use qualifer. 3. Can “convert” mana to food by way of using spells to conjure edible things, but this is probably not a net-positive on energy - this would definitely fall somewhere in the "force for good" definition.

 

However, I think my arguments for Blacks and Magi are a little weak, especially for qualifier 2 for Blacks. As examples though, I think they show where my thinking is going. Let's not just say "magic qualifies them for Life" but insist on three qualifiers, one of which can be magic as a major factor for the dragon, but must have some unique quality beyond just using magic. Not all dragons have magic as a significant factor in their lives. For those that do, they can be considered for Life, if there are other qualifying factors.

 

So, my suggestion is to change the definition for the Life category to: "Of or pertaining to magical, mental or spiritual control or consisting of magic in a way that is different from other breeds, or having a significant positive role in the world that is different from other breeds, or having a significant effect on a very specific part of nature, which must be different than the majority of other breeds, including both positive and negative effects." - something like that anyway.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Fiona BlueFire

[Grandmother_cathie]

http://dragcave.net/teleport/6259d4d99f5d5...cf373c48ba39d58

 

Had a nebula miscolor again.

 

 

I think that every element has the ability to contain magic. I almost agree that life should only be GON and avatars. BUT, I also think that Life should contain an overall positive good.

 

And regarding eyesight being an elemental thing, I look at it as having more visual receptors, not necessarily something elemental...

Edited November 23, 2014 by Grandmother_cathie

[Pink467]

soooo happy more people are weighing in, thank you!!! I apologize for not doing more research about Leeloo before creating this lineage. I just knew I liked it and a lot of dragons seemed seemed to fit easily in to the first 4 Elements

 

Keep posting thoughts and I'll do my best to add all the suggestions to the voting list

[Zeldarax]

Hello, peeking in again in the middle of a very interesting discussion.

 

I'll read it and try to figure out, what new points I can give, but that it for later.

 

I still have to check the new book, TJ has written

[Dragorama]

oh wow, this is still around?

Meepsa here, lost all details to my previous account so I decided to roll over a clean slate, if this is still on going I'm definately interested in starting over here again!

 

New Member

FORUM NAME: Dragorama

SCROLL NAME: Dragorama

TIME ZONE: GMT+1

Edited November 25, 2014 by Dragorama

[Fiona]

Welcome back, Dragorama.

[Dragorama]

Just a small bump to see if this is still active ^^

[Fiona]

We go by spurts. Pink is hoping more people weigh in on the discussion about revising our elemental definitions.

[Zeldarax]

Still busy to unlock the Sprites in the Encyclopedia and breeding tons of (mostly) Elemental eggs in the meantime.

So, don't be surprised, if you meet one of my PB Elemental eggs in the AP

And of course some Tinsels, Shimmers, Metallic and Breed-only eggs.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Zeldarax

[Pink467]

I'm going to open the voting for how we should treat the LIFE category, moving forward...

1.  Leave it as is, change nothing.

2.  Leave it as is, but add a qualifier about mana/magic (courtesy of Fiona "Of or pertaining to magical, mental or spiritual control or consisting of magic in a way that is different from other breeds.")

3.  Make it ONLY about mana/magic, move breeds that no longer fit to other categories.

4.  Make it ONLY about mana/magic, move breeds that no longer fit to other categories, and move all eligible holiday breeds here.

5.  Move all breeds to other categories, except GoN.

6.  Leave it as is, but add the qualifier "Of or pertaining to magical, mental or spiritual control or consisting of magic in a way that is different from other breeds, or having a significant positive role in the world that is different from other breeds, or having a significant effect on a very specific part of nature, which must be different than the majority of other breeds, including both positive and negative effects."

7.  Move all breeds to other categories, except GoN, Avatars, and breeds with a positive overall good.

8.  Combo of #4 + #6 (would theoretically look like this:  white, holidays, possibly seasonals, GoN, Avatar of Creation)

 

bumping this for more input/voting:

 

Please let me know if I've misunderstood your vote! Will try to wrap this up by the end of the week so we can have everything in place for re-votes at Christmas, if needed.

 

Option 1:

Option 2: Lavinia, PieMaster

Option 3:

Option 4:

Option 5: deblogan, LadyBahiya

Option 6: Fiona BlueFire, Zeldarax, Grandmother_cathie

Option 7:

Option 8: Pink467, silver_chan, Dragorama, rrattts

Edited December 3, 2014 by Pink467

[Pixxelation]

I vote for #2 c:

[LadyBelz]

I'm leaning toward 5.

[Zeldarax]

I vote for 6:

6. Leave it as is, but add the qualifier "Of or pertaining to magical, mental or spiritual control or consisting of magic in a way that is different from other breeds, or having a significant positive role in the world that is different from other breeds, or having a significant effect on a very specific part of nature, which must be different than the majority of other breeds, including both positive and negative effects."

[silver_tiger]

I'm honestly not sure if I'm still even part of this lineage; wiping out the great majority of my dragons and starting fresh(ish) has at least gotten my interest in this game back, so I'm slowly starting to build up my elementals again.

 

But if I'm allowed to vote, I think I like option 8 the best: Combo of #4 + #6 (would theoretically look like this: white, holidays, possibly seasonals, GoN, Avatar of Creation)

Edited December 2, 2014 by silver_chan

[Dragorama]

Voting for either option 8 or 2 leaning more towards 8 though.

[rrattts]

8 and 6 for me but as 8 includes 6 will have to be 8

 

i am open to breed if anyone still needing mates for upcoming breeding season commons or metals not a problem, as i am slowly getting on with my 2nd gen project

 

plus i will always find space for CB imps if any unwanteds found on AP

[Grandmother_cathie]

I'd like to change mine to #6 (if possible)

 

If you moved the other dragons, where would they go? Autumn, Avatar of Creation, Guardian of Nature, Heartseeker, Pumpkin, Soulpeace, Spring, Summer, White, Winter would stay Life?

 

But what about the others? Canopy, Frostbite, Harvest, Mint, Neotropical, Terrae, Vine