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The Fifth Element

The Fifth Element Lineage

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I don't feel that these guys are Elemental. They're big and bad and scary (and I'd love to have an offspring of one of the alts of them) but I don't believe that they are Elemental. My vote is No.

 

 

And I'll be sending you and/or Pie some links over the next few days.

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Peeps head in it's been quite a long time. I'm going to start collecting again and boost my elemental army that has been inactive for far to long.

Welcome back, Jayme!

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I'm wavering.

 

There's a lot of magic / supernatural power here:

1. control and manipulate the minds of others

2. pulverize the sanities of their foes

3. forge false memories

4. absorbing the magic of others with the fire they breathe

5. converting it into the bright reserves of crystallized mana

6. using reserved mana to decorate their bodies

7. Their scales and bones are rich with their own dark mana

8. their heavy reliance on magic for everything other than brute force

 

So...these are powerfully magical dragons. I'm just not sure where they'd fit in the 5E universe...

 

Thoughts?

 

 

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I tried to think if their mind control qualified for Life, as that is a specific part of nature. The magic/mana is also part of the DC universe nature, but less well defined as we're still world building. Their scales and bones serve as storage for their magic, which is cool, but is it elemental? How many dragons do we know of with internal magic batteries?

 

If we consider that the mana crystals are a form of stone (which I'm not sure they quite are, as crystalized mana - but maybe) then the ability to draw substance from other creatures and turn it into stone for their own bodies might indicate earth element. They 1. draw the raw material to form the crystals from others, 2. form it into crystals on their bodies and 3. draw energy from the crystals to power their magic. So... ?

 

Also, Piemaster asked that if the disipises you are planning to send are eggs, could you please fog to delay hatching? It will help him manage slots.

Edited by Fiona BlueFire

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I tried to think if their mind control qualified for Life, as that is a specific part of nature. The magic/mana is also part of the DC universe nature, but less well defined as we're still world building. Their scales and bones serve as storage for their magic, which is cool, but is it elemental? How many dragons do we know of with internal magic batteries?

Moonstones and Sunstones. They absorb sun energy through the gemstone-like structures on their tails. I see the Depisis' mana-scales as similar to that.

 

When I read that they manipulate minds and mood, and can kill that way, I thought, "Life." So my vote is Yes.

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copied this from the encyclopedia regarding mana...

"The energy to power all forms of magic comes from a substance called mana. This liquid provides the energy that is utilized when casting a spell (or otherwise using magic).

 

Mana can be found naturally in pools, springs, or as solid crystals. Mana in this “raw” form is very potent, but must be refined before it can be used by humans (dragons, on the other hand, are generally able to make use of raw mana as-is).

 

Elements

 

There also exist specialized forms of magic that are closely aligned with certain elements found in nature. Many creatures (dragons included) can be said to have an affiliation with one or more elements.

 

To power such magics, there are elemental varieties of mana. A given mana source (e.g. a spring) will usually only contain one specific element; raw mana of differing elements does not mix well.

 

World

 

The world contains a large amount of natural diversity, in part thanks to the presence of natural mana and its effects on plants and animals. There are many eccentric environments to be found, from the mana-filled sands of Jehumuh Desert to the deep oceans.

 

Dragons are primarily found on the continent of Galsreim, in part thanks to an expansive underground cave system and large mana deposit deep within. On this continent (as well as those nearby), dragons make up the top of the food chain."

 

~*~*~*~*

So mana is a liquid, but can be found in everything, even sand and underground caves? Again my brain compares it to water...if plants or life forms live around a mana spring, they get mana? And when dragons eat them, they get mana? So to me it seems mana can be solid/earth, liquid/water, fire/fire, magic/energy/contained in living things/not sure this constitutes life. So confused blink.gif

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Hmm... how much to try to explain. Plus, my understanding may not perfectly match TJ's headcanon.

 

Think of mana primarily as an energy, but it has physical form. So it powers all magic, but you can gather it and work it, rather like you can work stone or process crude oil.

 

Now, as the encyclopedia says, mana can be raw, untyped. But it can also take on an affinity for any of the elements. So "water mana" can be a liquid, or a solid crystal. So can "earth mana" be solid or crystalline. It's also not evenly spread out. Some places will have little, while others may have an abundance, like the Jehumuh Desert as described.

 

So, disipis use their magical fire breath to suck magic out of their foes and turn it into crystalline mana, which they then use to power their own spells. Is that more clear? So it isn't life force. Some dragons have little magic, but others have a lot, like magi. So a disipis would get more juice from a magi than a cassare. (I bet they hate cassares' anti-magic field)

 

So, I'm thinking if Fifth Element earth element it would be because the crystals on their bodies are like rocks, even though they form them themselves, out of other creatures' magic. Another option I was wondering about was life element because of their mind control ability.

 

 

See, that's the thing. They seem like they almost but don't quite fit anywhere.

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Sounds like mana is an uber- or meta-element. How does this dovetail into the Fifth Element ethos? It doesn't really, we're going on that from the movie. Though in classical magick, the Fifth Element can be anything from Life, to Spirit, to Aether/Null, to Space, depending on which magickal tradition you're drawing from.

At first Dragon Cave was just the cave, then there came Biomes, now continents and a whole world. To TJ, every dragon species has an Elemental affinity. We don't, we discriminate, even diverge. White Dragons weren't part of the original lineup and were introduced/justified, ostensibly so we could have Elemental Dorkfaces. I still think Magi should be in the lineage, in Life. But that's up to Pink.

I get the feeling we're going to have another lineage-shaking debate soon…

Edited by Xocowolf

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See? That's it exactly, Xoco. I wasn't around when the Magis were debated, but I've never understood how they could *NOT* be elemental...but then I think I have a more classical understanding of the elements.

 

I mean, yes, I saw the movie (and *loved* it), but my basic elemental understanding is broader. Which explains why I sometimes miss the point of our discussions *lol*

 

The Desipis definitely meet my understanding of elemental magick...but are they 5th Element elemental? THAT's the question...

 

For now I'm going with *my* understanding.

 

YES ... in LIfe

 

Because:

1. control and manipulate the minds of others

2. pulverize the sanities of their foes

3. forge false memories

4. absorbing the magic of others with the fire they breathe

5. converting it into the bright reserves of crystallized mana

6. using reserved mana to decorate their bodies

7. Their scales and bones are rich with their own dark mana

8. their heavy reliance on magic for everything other than brute force

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I think these are basically Cthulhu dragons in terms of personality.

 

My first instinct at reading the Desipis info was that they belong in Life for the mind-control/telepathic/mind-affecting powers (but that they didn't have a strong claim), but I also agree that the magic/mana reliance doesn't make a dragon more elemental in terms of this lineage. Overall, I'm torn... I'm voting NO for now but still considering.

 

Fi, I may or may not have a couple spare 2014s. If I do, I'll PM you.

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lol the 3 of you sound like me debating with myself...

If I think of mana as a tangible thing, desipis could go in the earth category. If I think of mana as a mysterious, magical, can't-quite-explain-it thing then I don't see them as Elemental. I have to keep smacking my hands to keep from typing comparisons to other breeds laugh.gif

 

Keeping voting open for debates, but starting a list...

YES - deb (life), Xoco (life), Husker (life)

NO - cathie, Lavinia, Pink, Fiona

Edited by Pink467

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I mean, yes, I saw the movie (and *loved* it), but my basic elemental understanding is broader. Which explains why I sometimes miss the point of our discussions *lol*

 

The Desipis definitely meet my understanding of elemental magick...but are they 5th Element elemental? THAT's the question...

 

For now I'm going with *my* understanding.

 

YES ... in LIfe

 

Because:

1. control and manipulate the minds of others

2. pulverize the sanities of their foes

3. forge false memories

4. absorbing the magic of others with the fire they breathe

5. converting it into the bright reserves of crystallized mana

6. using reserved mana to decorate their bodies

7. Their scales and bones are rich with their own dark mana

8. their heavy reliance on magic for everything other than brute force

I'm quoting Deb here because these are the reasons I think they should be included.

 

It is indeed a tough call.

 

I'm going to vote Yes in LIFE. I am still open for debate though.

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Not voting, but I thought I'd mention this for consideration too...

 

In the mythology of Heroes of Might and Magic, Elements are dealt with as this:

 

4 Classical/Tangible Elements: Earth, Fire, Air and Water.

 

The world is made of those four, but in their natural form the elements are too unstable/volatile to mix. So there's a Fifth Element that binds them.

 

That fifth Element is Magic. Powerful, but intangible - difficult to define.

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I've voted no and I'm not trying to change any minds (even my own).

 

If I understand DC mana correctly, it is a physical thing with magical properties - but still a physical thing in it's many forms. It has to have another physical element to make itself manifest physically. You can have a plain rock (earth only) or you can have a magical rock (earth plus mana).

 

EARTH - Dragons comprised of, resembling, or able to control rock, metal, and/or dirt, POSSIBLY residing in the earth.

 

If this above is the case then the Depsisisisis (I can't get this right!) create rocks with their magic. One point for Yes in Earth. But only one.

 

I'm not even bringing fire, water and air into this.

 

LIFE - dragons who rely on or are affected by a very specific part of nature, which must be different than the majority of other breeds

 

If Mana is a part of nature, then they do rely on a specific part of nature to survive (plus 1 for yes in Life). But I don't think that it is different than a majority of other breeds. Because one of the defining features of Life is that they must be different than a majority, I feel I can comment using other dragons. Magi store their magic (it mentions that they travel to replenish their stores and can convert mana into food (not rock)) (kinda takes away that Plus in earth), Cassare suck in magic (no longer unique), Pinks use their magic to change other dragon's forms (male to female etc), Purples change other dragon's minds (put them in the mood for love), Christmas holidays change moods (add cheer), Heartseekers (binding love together) and Arsani can meld their magic with one another. (taking away the plus 1 for Life)

 

I still can't vote yes. I don't think that Mana = life. If it does or if high mana use equates with a life elemental, then we need to re-think our definitions.

 

 

 

Sorry for the Teal Deer bait.

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I'm still straddling the fence. It almost seems like there are three points to consider them elemental, but in three different elements. 1. The rock thing - crystals they grow on their bodies. (Earth) 2. The magical fire breath thing - fire that sucks magic out of other creatures. (Fire) and 3. Mind control/mood changing, as outlined nicely by Cathie. (Life)

 

I feel like it's kind of a stretch to fit them in any one element even though there are aspects of them that are elemental. The crystal thing doesn't seem like enough by itself to make them earth element because they are not primarily an earth element type dragon. The fire breath doesn't seem like enough to be a fire element dragon because that's the only thing about them that relates to the fire element. Life elements are always harder to define because Life is such a broad category, but I'm not convinced at this point that they fit there either. The whole mana thing is DC definitions, not Fifth Elements definitions. They have similarities but are not exact. These dragons seem like they were concepted to slide right into DC's elemental system. That might be why they almost seem like they fit ours but not quite.

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ok, after reading cathie and Fiona's latest posts I'm also going to vote no. I think, based on what Fiona said about TJ's version of Element versus ours and new concepts possibly being based on the encyclopedia, we're going to have a lot of these issues in the future. As Xoco said, prepare for debates tongue.gif

 

We've always had trouble with the Life category. I will try to browse some discussions regarding the movie and see if that can help us. I do think that everyone will have differing basic beliefs about magic.

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I think I've talked myself into voting no as well.

 

Hey, those of you who haven't sent links to Pie yet but were planning to, would you be ok with sending some to birdzgoboom? Pie's concerned for how many she'll end up with because some of her trades for more fell through and Pie's juggling hatchlings to try to pick up all he traded for and we're sending.

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From what I can gather about The Fifth Element movie, Luc Besson wrote it when he was 17 (1976). He was a deep sea diver, had an accident and couldn't dive anymore, so he started writing to "escape". He hadn't had exposure to tv or movies, living in the French countryside, so he invented a world with flying cars. At age 35, when he'd experienced more in life, he wrote the screenplay with Robert Mark Karmen.

 

The Mondoshawan possess the only weapon to defeat Evil. Four elements, gathered around a fifth. The Supreme Being, the ultimate warrior. Created to protect life. Together, they produce the "Light of Creation", that can bring life to the farthest reaches of the Universe.

 

This is from a press release when the movie was originally released, courtesy of http://www.filmscouts.com/scripts/matinee....e&File=synopsis

The title of The Fifth Element refers to the four elements of alchemic Greek tradition -earth, air, fire, and water. Four elements gathered together to create the fifth one: life. Besson conceived of this energy -- the energy used to talk, to engage in sports, even to think -- as an actual, living thing that never disappears, but spreads throughout the universe and beyond.

 

Though the acclaimed writer/director conceived of the story while still a teenager, he was unaware that the concept of a fifth element -- known in Moorish traditions as "Akasha" -- is deeply rooted in ancient mythology. Besson remembers: "When my father came across Plato's writings on the subject, he came to me with the book and said, 'Do you know that your movie is a remake?' I read it, and was amazed to see the similarities between what Plato had written and what I had put into the script."

 

In The Fifth Element, Besson posits the question: what if an opposite form of life existed in another dimension -- one not made up of life-energy, but a dark, cancerous embodiment of all that is evil? "The energy of life, and this other, evil life-form, are opposites, like fire and ice," Besson explains, "and the more of this life-energy we create, the more it irritates and provokes this other."

 

In the 23rd century of The Fifth Element, humanity has wandered out among the stars, spreading this life-energy, and further agitating the dark being. "It feels as if we are asphyxiating it," Besson notes. "It is dying because of us. It wants to fight back, and extinguish every source of energy or light --animal, vegetable, human. But it has its own limitations: it is isolated in another dimension."

 

The dark being's time to strike back occurs only once every 5,000 years when a doorway between the parallel dimensions briefly opens. "At the very beginning of the movie," says Besson, "we show that a way was once found to fight this entity, but the years have passed, and the way is forgotten. When our story begins, he is back, and no one knows how to defeat him." The setting in which this heroic quest drama unfolds is among the most filly-realized fantasy worlds ever committed to film, and certainly one of the most unique. "We looked at all of human history," says Besson, "in order to come up with what we think is a very possible scenario for humanity in the year 2259, which is when the story takes place -- to be very precise, the story begins on March 18, 2259, at 2 a.m. What will the evolution be? How will people live, and think? And how will that be reflected in the world? It seemed very important to me to create for this story a world that people can accept as a real possibility for the future."

 

~*~*~*~

I need to read through this a few more times and ponder before wrapping my head around how it will affect our Life category. Please continue to discuss/debate/analyze/random comment, it really helps challenge my thinking and awaken new ideas!

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The idea that the energy of life is a pervasive living force has been suggested in many fictional works, so it isn't a surprise to find it as a tenet in an ancient mythology. The concept of "gaia" - that the world itself is somehow alive and aware and part of the greater consciousness, is portrayed in the "mother earth" myths of different cultures. Anne McCaffrey took that to a higher degree in her series about Petaybee. (Can't remember the title of the first book in the series but the sentient world was central to the storyline)

 

It seems that our zombie dragons would fit more into the darkness rather than any of the 5 elements that are part of the living force. They'd be the negative to the 5 elements' positive. I'm not sure the desipises would be part of the negative, though I lean more toward that than toward any of the positives.

 

It also seems, from the descriptions in Pink's quoted stuff from the movie, that any dragons that aren't part of the darkness should[ fit somewhere in the 5 elements. Pinks for example are a breed that adjusts gendering - and creating new life or influencing its life direction seems very like part of that pervasive positive life force. That doesn't mean I think we should automatically stick every breed somewhere in the five elements. Chaos! I just think we need a more careful definition of the life element. One of the things I think we need to decide is where mana/magic fits in our definitions, particularly as mana/magic is defined in DC's new canon.

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I think I've talked myself into voting no as well.

 

Hey, those of you who haven't sent links to Pie yet but were planning to, would you be ok with sending some to birdzgoboom? Pie's concerned for how many she'll end up with because some of her trades for more fell through and Pie's juggling hatchlings to try to pick up all he traded for and we're sending.

The links I have sent may go to whomever you'd like to send them to.

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YES ... in LIfe

 

Because:

1. control and manipulate the minds of others

2. pulverize the sanities of their foes

3. forge false memories

4. absorbing the magic of others with the fire they breathe

5. converting it into the bright reserves of crystallized mana

6. using reserved mana to decorate their bodies

7. Their scales and bones are rich with their own dark mana

8. their heavy reliance on magic for everything other than brute force

I'm quoting deb as well because I agree with her, in my opinion, the dragons fit in for the Life element because as Takhesis mentioned, sometimes for the fifth element Magic is considered, though I know our description might not really fit Magic as it is, but because of deb's reasons, I think these dragons do fit in the description for Life. So yeah, I'm voting Yes and on Life

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Hey, those of you who haven't sent links to Pie yet but were planning to, would you be ok with sending some to birdzgoboom? Pie's concerned for how many she'll end up with because some of her trades for more fell through and Pie's juggling hatchlings to try to pick up all he traded for and we're sending.

I sent him 4 separate links already but he hasn't claimed any yet. If he wants to pass however many on to birdz, I'm ok with that smile.gif

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I sent Pie a link for 3 hatchies, s/he is welcome to use it or pass it along biggrin.gif

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I owe everybody in this lineage project a HUGE, gigantic THANK YOU!!! <3333333 You all were a huge help, and I am extremely thankful for all the Desipises you sent my way wub.gifwub.gifwub.gif You made my first release even more awesome than I could imagine biggrin.gif I've got over 70 alts now, nearly 80, thanks to all your help, and am happy to announce that I will be able to breed them for this lineage project, should they be deemed eligible to participate. Once I get through my trade IOUs and have had the opportunity to do a little gifting, I'll periodically drop a post that says that breeding requests are open, and when they'll close. PM me a preferred mate, and the preferred gender of the Desipis parent, and I'll try to breed it for you. Just be sure to use them for this lineage project ^^ I'll have rules posted soonish. I'm not sure exactly how many I will name to be elemental for you guys, but I'll certainly have a few set aside just for this group <3 YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST ;_;

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Glad we could help, Pie.

 

We'd love to make these Elemental, but some of us are having a hard time seeing how they fit our categories. Care to help us with that? tongue.gif

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