2023-10-31 - Happy Halloween!

[SharaIshvalda]

6 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

 

I didn't interpret that statement as snarkiness. On online forums, I find it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to tone. It seemed momoness was, in fact, giving you the benefit of the doubt by clarifying the meaning of their full statement, if that makes sense. It's really easy to be misconstrued over text. 

I agree that tone can be hard to read over text, but I can also tell when someone is just being purposefully unpleasant. Regardless, this might be going off-topic?

[dracornithologist]

1 minute ago, Luckystarz103 said:

Well clearly we arent discussing the same thing, as I was trying to discuss the new release and asking how to talk about it appropriately, whereas youre just arguing the very definition of constructive criticism and providing zero examples. If you did provide and example then the phrasing was too complex for me to understand. Why did you reply to me at all? Rhetorical question.

 

I did provide examples and theoretical solutions though: 

 

40 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

As for applying the critique you mention to future releases - saying "Since people are saying this release isn't scary enough, maybe next year's release could involve eldritch horror, like extra mouth appendages" is a specific critique, productive because it has a suggested direction that could be followed. That's one way that critique might be expressed. 

 

&

 

41 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

My suggestion was that it seems like we could use a space *separate from the thread that looks like it's intended for news and celebrating Halloween This Year* - maybe a thread in Site Discussion would be appropriate? - where users can year round express their preferences or hopes for future holiday releases. I think this would give people a space to talk in detail about what they like and why, and could be a useful way for spriters and conceptors can keep a finger on the pulse of public opinion on the site. The way that it's working now, it feels like people maybe aren't thinking through how rude some of the stuff they're saying is. With a different space, and less of a time crunch of being restricted around a certain set of days, this might be alleviated, and since it won't be tacked on to specific releases, the critiques might seem less personal.

 

&

 

22 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

I've said multiple times now that my preferred solution would be a thread under site discussion where people can express what they like and don't like, what they want and don't want regarding future releases, in a place where that feedback could be a little more chill and a little more useful for the people working on it. 

 

So I'm not sure what you're talking about. 

[Momoness]

5 minutes ago, SharaIshvalda said:

I agree that tone can be hard to read over text, but I can also tell when someone is just being purposefully unpleasant. Regardless, this might be going off-topic?

Well at the risk of getting a bit off topic even more--yes, draco is right about what I meant! I know a lot of people are pretty into the discussion at this point and it's easy to take different meanings from what someone said (especially if they are already i a mindset of defense or offense), so rather than just insta accuse you of intentionally misconstruing what my comment said, I figured there was a possibility it was misread or skimmed (there is a lot of long responses out and about to be fair) which lead to the mixup. 

[StarKaabii]

30 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

For example, maybe something along the lines of a siren's-call angle like "Many sailors tell tales of ships that drew too close, only for some of the people aboard to be enthralled by the allure of the eerie lights, mindlessly leaping overboard to their watery graves" it doesn't have to be a confirmed thing, it just has to be plausible enough that it gets the imagination going. 

I do rather enjoy this idea! I feel like, if their lore had been a tad more along these lines, the breed would have felt much, much more fitting specifically for Halloween even with their current sprite design!

 

It is an absolutely beautiful breed in my opinion, the main problem for me is that they just personally don’t really feel specifically tied to Halloween save the brief mention of being mistaken for spirits in their lore. They’re a great representation of the natural human fear of the unknown, which I adore of them, but in general their description otherwise feels like it could have been applied to a standard release dragon, which paired with their design not feeling “Halloween” enough to many users is probably a contributor to some of the disappointment.

 

For instance, Spirit Ward Dragons have a much more “traditionally” Halloween feel about their design and lore, despite being a standard release. (Though if I recall I think they were originally drafted as a Halloween dragon; I could be remembering incorrectly however.) I think the main factor of disappointment for people is that as a limited-edition Halloween release, the Abyss Watchers do feel a bit less tied specifically to the holiday (in my opinion); I feel as though a siren-type concept as quoted above would have made them feel much more like a Halloween release, even if they were still harmless and were to lure humans to their deaths unintentionally, beyond their own control due to their bioluminescence.

 

Either way I think they are a wonderfully done breed, and their artwork is gorgeous! I just personally have a bit of trouble viewing them as a Halloween dragon specifically.

[Kaini]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:39 AM, Kaini said:

Reminder now that the first rule of the forum is to respect others - staff included. Helpful and polite critique of sprites is fine. A sprite not being to your taste is fine. Calling sprites 'generic' or other unkind things that are not constructive and making accusations is not fine. 

 

Taps the sign. 

[purpledragonclaw]

And on that note, this thread is temporarily closed while we clean up some posts.

[Kaini]

About to reopen this, but if it becomes argumentative again I will be closing it permanently.

The first rule of the forum is to respect others. This means artists and staff, as well as other users even if you personally disagree with them. Be mindful of how you speak to others, and do it without disrespect.

I should not have to explain the difference between polite critique/personal dislike and rude derision. No one is saying you cannot express the former, but the latter is not acceptable.

Please make use of the report function if you witness inappropriate behavior rather than engaging with it. Arguing with off topic posts and engaging with them is still off topic.

Thank you.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Kaini

[BatPopsicle]

In the dragon's description it says they have long, sharp teeth but I'm not seeing them. Is there something in the lore that explains this? Maybe it's just my bad eyesight. 😂

TIA 😊

 

[ValidEmotions]

33 minutes ago, BatPopsicle said:

In the dragon's description it says they have long, sharp teeth but I'm not seeing them. Is there something in the lore that explains this? Maybe it's just my bad eyesight. 😂

TIA 😊

 

I agree, not very visible in the sprite work but Shen posted concept art that displays said teeth 

 

[schenanigans]

56 minutes ago, BatPopsicle said:

In the dragon's description it says they have long, sharp teeth but I'm not seeing them. Is there something in the lore that explains this? Maybe it's just my bad eyesight. 😂

TIA 😊

 

 

Teeth are actually really difficult to get on such a small scale; they're supposed to be long and needle-like so wouldn't be as pronounced as normal dragon teeth (and also not as pronounced as my concept sketch that Valid linked, technically), so it didn't feel right to wedge them in - it would likely have only been one or two that would fit in the female's mouth anyway.

 

Plus I just really like the silhouette and clean look of her mouth, and felt it showed off the funky cheek holes better this way 😄

[JuulXhorse]

The dragons are gorgeous and I love the name! Also a big Dark Souls and Subnautica fan, so that might be why haha!

 

However, I do agree with others that they do not feel Halloweeny... Don't get me wrong, the sprites are beautiful! I think the 'issue' for me is that a lot of normal releases also include creepy or terrifying dragons, which makes it harder for Halloween dragons to stand out. Maybe this is why I prefer the Halloween dragons that are closer to the commercial depiction of Halloween (I adore the Arcana Dragons). A deep sea Halloween dragon is a fantastic idea, but let's say someone would put the Abyss Watchers next to the Lotaan Dragons and ask which one would be the Halloween dragon. If I did not know when they were released I would 100% choose the Lotaan Dragon as the Halloween deep sea dragon... Oh well, can't please everyone! Thanks to everyone for another fun Halloween event!

 

PS if you enjoy the creepy deep sea vibes, definitely play Subnautica and Subnautica Below Zero ❤️ 

 

[XiziX]

4 minutes ago, JuulXhorse said:

The dragons are gorgeous and I love the name! Also a big Dark Souls and Subnautica fan, so that might be why haha!

 

However, I do agree with others that they do not feel Halloweeny... Don't get me wrong, the sprites are beautiful! I think the 'issue' for me is that a lot of normal releases also include creepy or terrifying dragons, which makes it harder for Halloween dragons to stand out. Maybe this is why I prefer the Halloween dragons that are closer to the commercial depiction of Halloween (I adore the Arcana Dragons). A deep sea Halloween dragon is a fantastic idea, but let's say someone would put the Abyss Watchers next to the Lotaan Dragons and ask which one would be the Halloween dragon. If I did not know when they were released I would 100% choose the Lotaan Dragon as the Halloween deep sea dragon... Oh well, can't please everyone! Thanks to everyone for another fun Halloween event!

 

PS if you enjoy the creepy deep sea vibes, definitely play Subnautica and Subnautica Below Zero ❤️ 

 

 

Agreed!
 

Oohh man, for some reason when I was reading your comment, I pictured a super spooky deep sea dragon. Like a leviathan-esque sea dragon based on a ghostly whale fall.  With creepy bones and wispy bits. 😱

Edited November 5, 2023 by XiziX

[birdorcages]

Just wanted to say these guys are great, they make me think of the woman who makes the TikToks about spooky lake month so I aptly named my M/F pair after that lol. 

[tjekan]

So why is it a wyrm instead of a leviathan? As far as I can tell the difference is that leviathans have fins and live underwater, whereas wyrms have no appendages at all. This dragon lives underwater and clearly has fin/flippers (very pronounced in the concept art.) So what is it about them that makes them wyrms instead of leviathans...?

[ValidEmotions]

41 minutes ago, tjekan said:

So why is it a wyrm instead of a leviathan? As far as I can tell the difference is that leviathans have fins and live underwater, whereas wyrms have no appendages at all. This dragon lives underwater and clearly has fin/flippers (very pronounced in the concept art.) So what is it about them that makes them wyrms instead of leviathans...?

They're confirmed as wyrms because they have no limbs. Leviathan's have front/hind fins that are limbs similar to land-based mammals. Dorsal fins, to my understanding, don't function like the fins/limbs of the body. 

[blockEdragon]

1 hour ago, tjekan said:

So why is it a wyrm instead of a leviathan? As far as I can tell the difference is that leviathans have fins and live underwater, whereas wyrms have no appendages at all. This dragon lives underwater and clearly has fin/flippers (very pronounced in the concept art.) So what is it about them that makes them wyrms instead of leviathans...?

Anatomy. Limbs are more complex than what they have.

Basically this. Legs/arms and flippers aren't that different, anatomically speaking. They have mostly the same bones but with different specalisations

The Abyss watchers don't have any limbs,  look at the structure of their extremities, they have no joints, fingers, and possibly even no bones if they're made of muscle and cartilage or something. They're struts from the looks of it. They're fins/frills, not flippers. If they were limbs they'd look more like the gif below or the flippers on the whale skeleton:

(it's Draconia's Lindworm model, if anyone's wondering)

Edited November 5, 2023 by blockEdragon

[tjekan]

31 minutes ago, ValidEmotions said:

They're confirmed as wyrms because they have no limbs. Leviathan's have front/hind fins that are limbs similar to land-based mammals. Dorsal fins, to my understanding, don't function like the fins/limbs of the body. 

But it doesn't just have dorsal fins. It has wing-like flipper fins on each of its sides.
They're really clear in the concept art, but you can also see them on the back of the female sprite. Right?

[laevsk]

It's interesting reading the comments on people's personal expectations of Halloween and Halloween dragons. Here in the U.S. it's a fun holiday and has always been my favorite - probably because my birthday is in October and I grew up with birthday cakes covered in orange frosting, with black cats, witches, ghosts and bats as decorations.

 

I used to take my little sister and brother trick-or-treating, usually by harnessing my dog to the toboggan and having them ride on it as we went through the nearby subdivision. We almost always had snow by then. Our costumes ranged from pirates to monsters to animals to clowns. One year, as an adult, I went as part of a six-pack of beer. Another time I dressed as a road-killed moose to the local emergency services party (I was an EMT).  And at a Halloween event for the dog training club, I was a milkbone dog biscuit, the three dogs I took were an angel, a ghost and a baby (with diaper and pacifier).

 

Why am I saying all this?  It's because Halloween has NO set parameters.  Costumes and themes can be almost anything. Halloween is a matter of imagination and fun.  I can see how some may not view the current release as classical "Halloween" but in all honesty, it's as Halloween as any of the costumes I've mentioned.  I can understand saying "I'd love to see a Halloween release with these attributes" but to criticize this release - which is a done deal at this point - is puerile and unneccesary in my opinion.  

 

I recognize the time, imagination , artistry and creativity that went into this dragon. Shenanigans, as always, has produced a beautiful dragon for us to enjoy - at no cost to us, I'd like to mention.  I fully accept it as a Halloween dragon because that's the category it's in according to this game.  I'm sure many players are already making plans as to how it will fit into lineages.  Enjoying the moment, thinking forward - that's truly constructive.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Kaini
removed a slur

[tjekan]

3 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

Anatomy. Limbs are more complex than what they have.

Basically this. Legs/arms and flippers aren't that different, anatomically speaking. They have mostly the same bones but with different specalisations

The Abyss watchers don't have any limbs,  look at the structure of their extremities, they have no joints, fingers, and possibly even no bones if they're made of muscle and cartilage or something. They're struts from the looks of it. They're fins/frills, not flippers. If they were limbs they'd look more like the gif below or the flippers on the whale skeleton:

(it's Draconia's Lindworm model for the curious)

 

Ok. Maybe the description of leviathans should be updated. Right now it just says "flippers or fins in place of limbs or wings" and the fins on its back sides where wings would be definitely seemed to me like it fit that description, but the sprite is pretty tiny so I'll take your word for it on what's inside the fin-wings lol. Maybe they're just decorative...

 

[gayrurumon]

I'm a bit disappointed in the adults of these, which is a first for me when it comes to special release dragons. Those gorgeous eggs got my hopes up for a lot more bioluminescence than was in the final product. Overall their design appears somewhat more plain than I am used to Halloween dragons being. Not bad, but I'm used to special release dragons having visuals a bit more unique or elaborate going for them than a handful of glowing baubles (which a lot of regular dragons already have).

 

On the positive side: I do really love their colour scheme! The chosen shades of red and blue are beautiful, and the way the scales are rendered and seem to catch the light is quite lovely. I'm also a fan of them having four eyes, though I wish they were a bit larger so I could see them better. I'm pretty sure their design will start grow on me, once I'm gotten over my initial disappointment at what they are not.

[Fuzzbucket]

3 hours ago, laevsk said:

Why am I saying all this?  It's because Halloween has NO set parameters.  Costumes and themes can be almost anything. Halloween is a matter of imagination and fun.  I can see how some may not view the current release as classical "Halloween" but in all honesty, it's as Halloween as any of the costumes I've mentioned.  I can understand saying "I'd love to see a Halloween release with these attributes" but to criticize this release - which is a done deal at this point - is puerile and unneccesary in my opinion.  

 

I recognize the time, imagination , artistry and creativity that went into this dragon. Shenanigans, as always, has produced a beautiful dragon for us to enjoy - at no cost to us, I'd like to mention.  I fully accept it as a Halloween dragon because that's the category it's in according to this game.  I'm sure many players are already making plans as to how it will fit into lineages.  Enjoying the moment, thinking forward - that's truly constructive.

 

I Could Not Agree More.

 

I might - have - criticised a release when there was actually something wrong (there was a dragon which came out all fuzzy, once, and another with a serious anatomical flaw) - but one that is perfectly lovely and is as Hallowe'en as any other, in the end, seems a bit pointless. We've had it over Christmas/holiday, too - they are/aren't red and green enough; they are "just winter", and so on. As long as the dragon itself is nice - and it is - let's just enjoy it. (thinks of the day her daughter went out dressed as a Rubik's cube.... Totally Hallowe'eny and let's please not have a Rubik dragon.... )

[BatPopsicle]

9 hours ago, schenanigans said:

 

Teeth are actually really difficult to get on such a small scale; they're supposed to be long and needle-like so wouldn't be as pronounced as normal dragon teeth (and also not as pronounced as my concept sketch that Valid linked, technically), so it didn't feel right to wedge them in - it would likely have only been one or two that would fit in the female's mouth anyway.

 

Plus I just really like the silhouette and clean look of her mouth, and felt it showed off the funky cheek holes better this way 😄

Thank you for responding. My bad for not realizing that about the teeth. It totally makes sense. I really like the cheek holes and the four eyes. I think the scales look amazing. 

[tjenni]

I love those dragons, thanks for them @ the artists, you made everything right 😃

[tjekan]

8 hours ago, laevsk said:

I recognize the time, imagination , artistry and creativity that went into this dragon

Just want to quickly point out for a moment here-- ALL the dragon sprites on the site took imagination, artistry and creativity to make, so questioning whether this sprite should have been a Halloween release does not mean questioning the talent or creativity of the artists. There would have just as much skill and artistry to be impressed by regardless of which month it was released.

 

If there were posts insulting the artists' work or the dragon's appearance, they must have been quickly deleted before I read them. All the posts I saw, even if they took issue with the way it was released or the fit of the text description, have been complimentary about the sprite itself.

Edited November 5, 2023 by tjekan

[Kaini]

5 hours ago, tjekan said:

If there were posts insulting the artists' work or the dragon's appearance, they must have been quickly deleted before I read them. All the posts I saw, even if they took issue with the way it was released or the fit of the text description, have been complimentary about the sprite itself.

 

There were and they were indeed deleted. I have asked future comments remain respectful.