2023-10-31 - Happy Halloween!

[Riku-Heartilly]

Love this year's Halloween dragons adult sprites. Gorgeous and the colours are lovely.

[Momoness]

2 hours ago, MoonShark said:

I do understand they are not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. No single release is going to ever satisfy every player, because there is always a range of expectations for what a release or a dragon should be. I just wish that this release, which I was so excited for that I was bouncing around my room at midnight when I saw them dropping, was not overshadowed by commentary regarding what a Halloween dragon should or shouldn't be. I don't believe there's any one true answer to that, and I think that is reflected in the beautiful variety that we have among the Halloween breeds that exist on DC.

I second what the previous person has said. Thalassaphobia or anything related to deepsea is absolutely horrifying to me. I get queasy just looking at the ocean on google maps. 

 

I always wanted to be a marine biologist as a kid and was meanwhile terrified of anything medical or to do with blood...but when I first got on a boat into the Atlantic, the sheer darkness of the water surrounding me was so horrifying that going into medicine wasn't NEARLY as scary, and that's where I wound up instead LOL. When people ask me how I got into this field I tell them "I was too scared of the ocean."  T_T

 

I'm really sorry the reception of a smaller percentage messed up the excitement for you--I think most people are in love with these and it was worth the fight to get egglocked. I've been around for a while and once again, you guys didn't disappoint! Halloween means different things to so many people; insisting upon a single group of artists to somehow encompass a specific individual's subjective idea of a divergent cultural holiday(s) is not constructive in my opinion.

 

I much more prefer seeing how the talent interprets the holiday/theme and incorporates it into their work!

[Lourdes]

Nice looking dragon ❤️ thank you. Love the fins.

[Argie]

Bioluminescent dragons that look like spirits rising from the depths? DC one again spoiling me on the best holiday of the year. Imagine you're out on a boat in the middle of the night and a bunch rise up to the surface...

[random_dragon_collector]

3 hours ago, MoonShark said:

To me, as the conceptor, they embody a lot of my favorite things about Halloween--spooky colors, eerie and fear-inspiring appearance, and hailing from a dark and terrifying place few ever venture. Things that go bump (or glow!) in the night have always spooked me a lot more than more contemporary Halloween things.

 

 

Love these!  Fantastic job!  Great Halloween release for me!  

[eeep]

Picturing giant, glowing creature emerging from the depths is very spooky! I like the way this dragon's themes play on the imagination.

[StarKaabii]

To me I think it’s honestly just the colour scheme of Abyss Watchers that makes them feel a teensy bit more on the side of a regular release to me; a darker primary colour such as black to go with the eerie blue bulbs and underbelly would have probably given them a more traditional “Halloween-ish” spooky vibe to me, but they also look pretty intimidating and spooky (not to mention super cool!) regardless to me. I also really love the idea of exploring the concept of how scary the ocean can be for a Halloween dragon, especially as someone who has always had a massive fear of the ocean.

 

In my opinion a Halloween dragon doesn’t necessarily have to be connected to spirits and the dead or arcane magics to be properly spooky! Exploring just about anything that could invoke fear in people could work pretty well. Like I said, the only thing making them feel a bit less Halloween-ish to me is the mainly red coloring; it makes them look a bit like Aranoas to me, and I just feel like a colour such as black would have worked a bit better for them as a spooky, abyss-dwelling Halloween dragon.

[random_dragon_collector]

Ah, but it's nice bloody red!  Every time I look at the first page (while waiting for mine to grow up), they look better!  Gorgeous!  

[CrystalThundercloud]

Happy Halloween y'all and thanks to spriters and concept-artists for those wonderful wyrms!

 

I'd like to add my two cents: in early times, people saw monsters and magic in everything they couldn't explain. One can imagine the horror of those who were the first to see the glowing lights at night over the foggy sea, heard the roar of invisible creatures hidden in the haze, and told everyone in the area about the monsters that rise from the depths of the ocean only on Halloween. Just imagine how the rich human fantasy turned these harmless noodles into terrible monsters. For some, they may not seem Halloween-y enough, but I think you don't have to be a monster to be scary, and you don't have to be scary to fit the holiday theme as long as someone got spooked because of you.

 

These dragons may not be scary-looking or dangerous, but they are the reason for fairy tales and scary stories in Valkemare. I think that for any creature, not only the appearance, but also the lore is important, and as an example you can take almost any scary game - many characters don't look scary, but if you read the lore, you will start to shake at the mere sight of them.

Edited November 4, 2023 by CrystalThundercloud

[D-wing]

Just found that people are arguing. For me, every things that related to darkness are fit the imagination of holloween. Abyss? --- YES! 

 

I agree their appearance doesn't "look like" Halloween in my first impression, my impression about abyss: dark, scared, distortion, "if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."  They don't have "terrifying appearance" but beautiful for me XDDD

But in the other side, I think it had different between watching a deep sea fish in darkness and the normal environment? Also they're not intend to harm. Although I would more prefer if they have a "abyss form”  to simulation their terrifying appearance(?) in deep sea environment!  But I can accept it's how they look in the normal environment or because they're hamless.

 

Anyway I love them! Thanks spriters! 

Edited November 4, 2023 by D-wing

[-Rinikka-]

I mean we have them now, and they are pretty. However I think it’s important to listen to the community about their expectations on holiday releases. I’ll love the dragons once they grow up in my scroll, of course. 

 

Also! We got two releases during Halloween month, I liked the previous one more than the actual Halloween release, just because they fit my personal taste regarding the holiday. It was a fantastic month for spooky dragons! 

[meeps114]

4 hours ago, Luckystarz103 said:

It's constructive as it suggests what can be done better next time, obviously no one said the new ween should be changed retroactively. You are free to disagree but that does not suddenly make critism unconstructive.

Multiple people spent hours of their free time making these dragons for us -- I think they deserve very well thought-out and respectful criticism. It makes sense to express what people would prefer for the next event, but saying "you could've at least done X" for something they spent so much effort on (and can't change) feels like it's disregarding the time & talent that went into it. When I imagine how I'd feel in their place, I think it'd hurt my feelings, just saying. Something to keep in mind when giving constructive criticism. And I'm a part of the group that was expecting something more classically Halloweeny, so I get where you're coming from. 

[Kaityn]

I'm absolutely in love with the Abyss Watchers. The color pallete makes a wonderful addition to the Halloween cave, in my humble opinion. I'm super excited to collect more next year!

 

Thanks to TJ, Schen, and MoonShark for these dragons!

[Gluria]

Adding my 5cts I'm happy we're getting more diverse holiday releases.

Personally I have zero interest in Halloween; the only reason I do care is bc of the fun DC stuff.

I actually find the holiday in itself rather annoying, just as any holiday. And having the same "Halloween themes" (as in commercial "spooky" ghostpumpkinskeleton stuff) in DC each year would be extremely boring tbh.

[blah]

8 hours ago, MoonShark said:

I appreciate you raising that question. I've been here for going on 15 years now, and I'll be honest that I'm not sure what the answer to that is either. I will say that I appreciate a mod stepping in to say something earlier to a lot of the negative criticism that was being raised, but it is sad to see continued debate about whether or not they're "Halloween-y" enough.

When people go see a movie, they’ll state their likes and dislikes afterwards. When they try a new restaurant, they’ll chat about the food later. When they read a new book, they’ll discuss it in their book club. To vent, to squee, to plan whether or not to see another concert by that band. 

 

This forum, the news threads, are the space we are given to talk about Halloween on DC with people who care about it as much as we do. There is no other space. It’s not like there is another space that conceptors and spriters don’t have access to, where people can finally be honest. This is the point of this space and this discussion. We’re human and we like to discuss our experiences. 

[Luckystarz103]

2 hours ago, meeps114 said:

Multiple people spent hours of their free time making these dragons for us -- I think they deserve very well thought-out and respectful criticism. It makes sense to express what people would prefer for the next event, but saying "you could've at least done X" for something they spent so much effort on (and can't change) feels like it's disregarding the time & talent that went into it. When I imagine how I'd feel in their place, I think it'd hurt my feelings, just saying. Something to keep in mind when giving constructive criticism. And I'm a part of the group that was expecting something more classically Halloweeny, so I get where you're coming from. 

Time spent making these is never an argument or justification, there are creators that spend years making things that people will dislike, there is nothing wrong with a simple fact of life, saying something deserves unconditional praise because a lot of time and effort went into it is not only impossible but dishonest. Creators that create for themselves do not care for others opinions, but those that create for others do, and if they make something these others dont like how would they know if their audience is forbidden from expressing any remotely negative opinion? The reason I said "atleast" is because Halloween is a themed event, which comes with certain expectations, and reading through the forum I'm not the only one that feels this looks more like a common release. Why bother having a themed event if you're not going to release themed content right? Adding "generic" eldritch elements like tentacles or oddly placed eyes would have made the new release help fit the intended horror vibe. As it is now, one could argue it's just a Lotaan recolor minus pectoral fins so you can call it a wyrm instead of a leviathan. The breed description does not do enough to convince me these are a seasonal event breed. They do look pretty and I wouldnt wish to change them if they were an all year release, but they were released specifically for a seasonal event so naturally they'll be scrutinized if people dont feel like they fit the event sufficiently enough.

[Fuzzbucket]

@Luckystarz103 - why don't you start work on one for next year yourself ? I love the Abyss Watchers, and they seem perfectly suited to the event to me - but if you disagree, isn't; the obvious answer to create something that fits your requirements ?.

 

And let's not forget - some of the spookiest things IRL are those which disguise their true evilness.... Look up the Angel shark.... and the frogfish....

[Luckystarz103]

20 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

@Luckystarz103 - why don't you start work on one for next year yourself ? I love the Abyss Watchers, and they seem perfectly suited to the event to me - but if you disagree, isn't; the obvious answer to create something that fits your requirements ?

If you read the spriters post, there is no guarantee more spooky designs would even be chosen as TJ gets the final say. Besides, one underwhelming release out of 12+ is still good odds. Would say two but the Iridichi grew on me over time and chances are Abyss Watchers will as well.

[Fuzzbucket]

Sure. But at least yours would be in with a chance. The Hallowe'en one that totally does not work for me is - an older one (oh wait - there's more than one ) and I don't see the point of saying what dragons I don't like, once they are out there - I just don't collect them. Others love them.

 

And now I want a frogfish dragon....

Edited November 4, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[dracornithologist]

1 hour ago, Luckystarz103 said:

Time spent making these is never an argument or justification, there are creators that spend years making things that people will dislike, there is nothing wrong with a simple fact of life, saying something deserves unconditional praise because a lot of time and effort went into it is not only impossible but dishonest. 

 

So here's where I'm still confused; no one is saying give unconditional praise, right? My interpretation of meeps' post is that they were saying to be mindful of when criticism might be more harmful than helpful. I haven't seen anyone say "don't complain, you have to only compliment the spriters", and I'm a bit confused as to why people are interpreting things that way.  Of course I get expressing feelings, and so if the function of this thread truly is to hear everyone's feelings about this Halloween release in order to help with choosing next year's, then that makes a lot of sense to me. But I'm still flummoxed by the idea that expressing that things should be more "like Halloween" is productive criticism, since this design won't be changed, and that criticism can't be usefully applied to a future design. 

 

For example, one criticism was it should do with classic Halloween themes like ghosts and ghouls or witches - but even if next year's centers on such a theme, there's no guarantee people will all feel like it's represented - proven by the Abyss Watcher's theme having to do with ghosts and spirits, but people saying it wasn't Halloween enough. Another criticism said mouth appendages might have made it more "spooky", but this is another criticism that really can't be applied to a future design and is specific to this one - and not everyone would find more mouth appendages spooky. Or the criticism on color scheme - there's no guarantee that if the next design was black or a "dark color" that it would be read as more "classically" Halloween. For me, the "least" Halloween season-y dragon is the Desipis dragon. But I wouldn't have dreamed of saying "next year try a spookier color scheme" because I feel like that's so subjective as to be unhelpful. Red is a very classically spooky color for me, but I get why others' tastes wouldn't agree. So then we're back to my original question, which is how to express productive criticism, given that this year's won't change and next year's design has almost nothing to do with this year's design and so critiques of this year's seem hard to apply to the future. 

 

I also wonder that if this is really the only space where people get to express what they want for a future Halloween design, then the impact doesn't seem very long lasting, as the ideas stay here. Maybe a need being unearthed here is that a year round space for discussing people's likes and dislikes around Holiday dragons might be helpful for everybody having adequate space to express themselves, as well as provide a dedicated space for temperature checks on public opinion. And if people have that space more on hand, and that is less about celebration and more about discussing people's ideas in depth, the regular access to that space might reduce the amount of comments that come off as disrespectful without people meaning them to. 

[Fly-by-Night]

This is a wonderful release for me. In my country (Germany), Halloween is pretty much an imported, fairly new tradition. But in the North, where I come from, we have a different tradition in November, where children celebrate by walking around with little lanterns (often self-made) and singing special carols. You ring at every doorbell, sing your song, and people give you sweets.

Traditionally, it's to celebrate and commemorate Martin Luther, who reformed the Catholic church, but quite frankly, although some of the carols reflect this, I don't think it ever felt even remotely religious to me. It was about the fun and excitement of being out in the darkness, with a lot of others, and seeing every street lit up with bobbing lights, and knowing you'd have sweets later, and that all your friends would be out there as well.

And, to be honest, many of the songs are just about the lights and about the special experience that is "Martini".

This dragon feels a lot like that, with its moving lights in the darkness and its non-threatening behaviour in a dark environment.

[Tiira]

I've been coming back to this thread again and again to look at those eerie ocean wyrms once more, I find it difficult to wait for mine to grow up. I can't but adore their long tail, it seems neverending the same way one can feel about deep waters. The sprite design is truly amazing, as is the concept!

[Rhikasa]

As dracornithologist said, no one is saying the response to the new Halloween dragon can only be praise and nothing more, it’s just that there’s a difference between helpful and harmful critique.

 

I’d also like to mention that as an artist, if you’re still in the drafting stages of your work, then it’s common to share it with others in order to gauge how the piece looks from an outside perspective; what isn’t being done well that could be improved upon, but also what is being done well that could either be repeated or magnified. Once it’s completed, however, the artist’s piece has moved beyond that constructive criticism stage. After utilizing the advice of their peers and putting hours and hours into their work, the artist is proud of what they’ve made and is ready to show everyone else. Sure, the completed project isn’t going to be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s okay. But it can be hard on any artist to see others bashing your work simply because it fails to meet whatever personal standards they had set. Once a piece is published, the artist is generally no longer looking for peer critique in order to improve their piece because the details have already been finalized, so comments on what “should” have been done instead can often times come off as being a bit harsh.

 

We should take care to remember that at the end of the day, the concept and sprite artists are people too, and there is a method to sharing your opposing opinions in a way that doesn’t also hurt their feelings.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Rhikasa

[blah]

50 minutes ago, Fly-by-Night said:

Traditionally, it's to celebrate and commemorate Martin Luther, who reformed the Catholic church, but quite frankly, although some of the carols reflect this, I don't think it ever felt even remotely religious to me.

It’s about Martin of Tours, Roman soldier who then became bishop of Tours. Bearing in mind this was roughly 1700 years ago, there probably isn’t much accuracy to it but there is a legend that he used his sword to cut his cloak in half, giving one half to a freezing beggar on the side of the road. The celebration is usually used to teach kids about sharing and compassion and I like it a lot. For many people, it is very religious though.

 

I also think people are overthinking this whole issue. It’s not a crime to enjoy the cheesy aspects of Halloween.

[Fly-by-Night]

4 minutes ago, blah said:

It’s about Martin of Tours, Roman soldier who then became bishop of Tours. Bearing in mind this was roughly 1700 years ago, there probably isn’t much accuracy to it but there is a legend that he used his sword to cut his cloak in half, giving one half to a freezing beggar on the side of the road. The celebration is usually used to teach kids about sharing and compassion and I like it a lot. For many people, it is very religious though.

 

I also think people are overthinking this whole issue. It’s not a crime to enjoy the cheesy aspects of Halloween.

No, sorry, my region is overwhelmingly Protestant, and some of the carols we sang were about Martin Luther specifically. Other regions celebrate the whole cloak-cut-in-half thing, often with a horse and rider.