2023-10-31 - Happy Halloween!

[mishhelle]

I’ll probably get in trouble for posting this but I’m going to do it anyway. 

 

humans have such a gross way of treating others when they don’t stick to societal norms, and that’s exactly what is happening here. 

 

some of y’all get so upset when event dragons don’t fit into your ideas of what a holiday “traditionally” represents. and you come on here stating your opinions because you feel entitled to voice your displeasure that Abyss Watchers aren’t Halloween-y enough, in hopes that our artists will “do better” (read: do what’s always been done) to please you next time. you're so hung up on your entitlement to state your opinion that you forget these are real people with feelings who are creating art for Dragon Cave. 

 

I’m done with this thread (and the forum for awhile), but I’ll end this by saying I think it’s refreshing that the artists and TJ himself want to think outside of the box when it comes to event dragons. 

[blah]

19 minutes ago, Fly-by-Night said:

No, sorry, my region is overwhelmingly Protestant, and some of the carols we sang were about Martin Luther specifically. Other regions celebrate the whole cloak-cut-in-half thing, often with a horse and rider.

Last comment on this as it’s pretty off-topic. I know that some regions also celebrate Martin Luther but he is not the origin of that celebration. Everyone can easily Google Martinmas to confirm this.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

45 minutes ago, Rhikasa said:

As dracornithologist said, no one is saying the response to the new Halloween dragon can only be praise and nothing more, it’s just that there’s a difference between helpful and harmful critique.

 

I’d also like to mention that as an artist, if you’re still in the drafting stages of your work, then it’s common to share it with others in order to gauge how the piece looks from an outside perspective; what isn’t being done well that could be improved upon, but also what is being done well that could either be repeated or magnified. Once it’s completed, however, the artist’s piece has moved beyond that constructive criticism stage. After utilizing the advice of their peers and putting hours and hours into their work, the artist is proud of what they’ve made and is ready to show everyone else. Sure, the completed project isn’t going to be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s okay. But it can be hard on any artist to see others bashing your work simply because it fails to meet whatever personal standards they had set. Once a piece is published, the artist is generally no longer looking for peer critique in order to improve their piece because the details have already been finalized, so comments on what “should” have been done instead can often times come off as being a bit harsh.

 

We should take care to remember that at the end of the day, the concept and sprite artists are people too, and there is a method to sharing your opposing opinions in a way that doesn’t also hurt their feelings.

I would normally agree with you but holiday concepts in general can't really be shared with others. What the concept creators/artists envisions for a holiday concept may not always be aligned with what another may think. I have always wanted a leviathian Halloween dragon and my own views didn't line up with what was released, which is okay because I still love it. I love the ocean, it can be scary, yes, and I want to see more dragons based off ocean fish. I still, one day, would love to see a transparent leviathan dragon make its way into the cave.

Edited November 4, 2023 by MoonlightEevee

[tjekan]

The dragons are very pretty, and personally, I like that the color scheme isn't all black. We have a lot of cool dark Halloween dragons already, and it's nice for them not all to look the same.

 

The only thing that bothers me is that the lore makes no sense to me. Why would people in a world where dragons and humans canonically coexist at every level see a huge glowing serpent underwater and scream "OMG, THERE MUST BE GHOSTS UNDER THE SEA!" instead of realizing it's probably a dragon? And even if they did, since the Abyss dragons surface every year at the same time, wouldn't they have gotten used to it by now?

It's a little disappointing to me that these dragons don't actually have any real connection to the realm of the dead or to dark magic like other Halloween breeds do, just that a bunch of nearby humans happen to be thick-headed enough to incorrectly assume that and freak out repeatedly. At that point there are dozens of other regular dragon breeds the local yokels would be equally panicked by. I feel like a Halloween dragon should really be unsettling or dangerous enough to scare other DRAGONS a little, or at least humans who are used to seeing other dragons on the daily.

The Abyss dragons are spooky, look great and will make good breeding matches with the other Halloweens. I just wish they had a real connection to the eldritch/beyond-the-veil motifs. Like maybe they collected the souls of sailors lost at sea or something. It's a magical world, their magic should be real not just a big misunderstanding.

Edited November 4, 2023 by tjekan

[Magellan]

I'm a non native and not good of expressing myself, so I didn't dare to say anything, because no matter how carefully I try to say something, it may come out wrong and rude.

I also got no talent to speak of.

 

Like I already wrote, these guys have incredible detail and they are beautiful in all stages (hatch stage 2 with all the glowy bits is <3).
Even after days I can't really see them as a Halloween breed though.

This has nothing to do with the dragons itself, it is just my irrational feeling, no fact.

Does not mean I don't like them or won't collect or breed these pretties, they, to me, just feel not much ween in comparison to the previous breeds.

Iridichis also are adored by me. I love how they look like the colors of a wintersun in a frosty sky, but they fall under the same category for example.

P.S. Massively pleased the Dragons' Names start with Ab, so I have them on top of my scroll

Edited November 5, 2023 by Magellan

[Shokomon]

So... Halloween Leviathan?

 

Halloween Leviathan!

 

Or is it a Halloween Wrym?

[Rhikasa]

29 minutes ago, MoonlightEevee said:

I would normally agree with you but holiday concepts in general can't really be shared with others.

That’s true. In this particular instance that part of my post doesn’t make much sense (since holiday dragons are meant to be a surprise), but I added it in to say that there is typically a time and a place beforehand for that type of critique (especially if multiple artists are working on the same project, since you can bounce ideas off of each other). But once the finished project is revealed, such comments tend to not be overly welcomed by most artists at that point since the design is not free to be changed, and often times the artist is happy with their piece as is anyway.

[ValidEmotions]

19 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

So... Halloween Leviathan?

 

Halloween Leviathan!

 

Or is it a Halloween Wrym?

It's a wyrm due to having no limbs.  MoonShark also confirmed this some pages ago (I don't remember which page specifically).

Edited November 4, 2023 by ValidEmotions

[Luckystarz103]

3 hours ago, dracornithologist said:

So here's where I'm still confused; no one is saying give unconditional praise, right? My interpretation of meeps' post is that they were saying to be mindful of when criticism might be more harmful than helpful. I haven't seen anyone say "don't complain, you have to only compliment the spriters", and I'm a bit confused as to why people are interpreting things that way.  Of course I get expressing feelings, and so if the function of this thread truly is to hear everyone's feelings about this Halloween release in order to help with choosing next year's, then that makes a lot of sense to me. But I'm still flummoxed by the idea that expressing that things should be more "like Halloween" is productive criticism, since this design won't be changed, and that criticism can't be usefully applied to a future design.

I dont get it, how are we supposed criticize the design without... criticizing the design? Or suggest changes without... suggesting changes? What is supposed to be helpful vs harmfull criticism? If its too vague like "too generic" or "not halloweeny enough" I get it, but suggesting to add tentacles to make it fit into a more eldritch niche for halloween is harmfull? Because they cant be changed retroactively? How should I rephrase that then? "Next time please make sure the dragon has more features that help it fit into its particular niche?" This obsession in the community of only expressing toxic positivity makes it impossible for realistic or nuanced discussions. What is supposed to be "helpful" criticism exactly? The expectation to worship spriters has gone too far off the deep end that I just cant understand what "acceptable" critique is supposed to be anymore. Any remotely negative opinion is just met with the same "but the spriters and conceptors have feelings and time" rhetoric every single year like a broken record. Why dont we think about the playerbase making TJ money for a change? Arent they allowed to have feelings? A little too much grievance and they may start choosing to spend their time elsewhere, not that this site would go bankrupt, addictions go hard.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Luckystarz103

[Cassieburns]

Wow, you people are burning a lot of time discussing why you don't like or like the new Halloween dragons (or wyrms). I like the colors, they are a nice change from the dark theme of the other dragons.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

56 minutes ago, ValidEmotions said:

It's a wyrm due to having no limbs.  MoonShark also confirmed this some pages ago (I don't remember which page specifically).

Are they 😭 man that's a bummer 

[Stormphoenix42]

I don't like the tentacles suggestions, I think those would have felt really out of place for this design 😆 They're noodley enough, not everything has to fit one specific "eldritch" flavor of horror to be spooky.

But anyway, I think a lot of the criticism directed at spriters, constructive or not, is kinda pointless? They aren't the ones choosing which designs are released, and from what I hear there were a lot of "Halloweeny" breeds submitted that weren't chosen. Suggesting the spriters do things differently isn't necessarily going to change anything unless Every Single Submission fits the narrow idea of what the majority of players agree is Halloweeny "enough."

[FuecocoBoi09]

guys break it up please people have opinions in my opinion i love them you are allowed to dislike them but don’t put others down for their opinion or say other’s opinions are wrong its all subjective 

[dracornithologist]

50 minutes ago, Luckystarz103 said:

I dont get it, how are we supposed criticize the design without... criticizing the design? Or suggest changes without... suggesting changes? What is supposed to be helpful vs harmfull criticism? If its too vague like "too generic" or "not halloweeny enough" I get it, but suggesting to add tentacles to make it fit into a more eldritch niche for halloween is harmfull? Because they cant be changed retroactively? How should I rephrase that then? "Next time please make sure the dragon has more features that help it fit into its particular niche?" This obsession in the community of only expressing toxic positivity makes it impossible for realistic or nuanced discussions. What is supposed to be "helpful" criticism exactly? The expectation to worship spriters has gone too far off the deep end that I just cant understand what "acceptable" critique is supposed to be anymore. Any remotely negative opinion is just met with the same "but the spriters and conceptors have feelings and time" rhetoric every single year like a broken record. Why dont we think about the playerbase making TJ money for a change? Arent they allowed to have feelings? A little too much grievance and they may start choosing to spend their time elsewhere, not that this site would go bankrupt, addictions go hard.

 

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying that the suggestion of extra appendages was harmful! I was trying to say that meep's post, which was quoted, was about comments that were more disrespectful than constructive. 

 

However, as for the rest of your comment, I'm not sure I'm understanding. You say how else are you supposed to suggest critique, but did you read what I wrote about how the critiques can't be applied to the design, since they're already complete? And they can't be applied to future designs since they are specific to this year's dragon? It just seems like since it's not applicable, it's not productive critique anymore, just people saying things they don't like - which is so valid! But sometimes the way in which it's expressed seems harsh or mean. That's why the mods had to remind us of the rules, and it seems like people are indicating that this is common after releases. And maybe there are ways we can discuss engaging so stuff like that is less common. 🙂

[Sylph264]

"ocean's haunted"

"what?"

*loading pistol* "ocean's haunted"

 

Oh these are gorgeous, I love the yellow-orange-red-purple gradient on these and how the design overall comes off as red. So many Halloween colors packed in here. I also love the contrast of the blue eyes and "eyes" and underbellies! 

[Banyanpan]

I love the new dragons. Everything about them is cool to me, from the design to the name to the breed description, and I'm going to have fun breeding them with various wyrms and leviathans (I'm thinking Lotaans and Thalassas off the top of my head). That said, I definitely fall into the category of feeling like they just seem like a "regular" release in terms of both design and description. Aside from them sometimes being mistaken for ghosts, the Abyss Watchers just feel like a "deep-sea animal" to me. It's an insanely cool concept (I like deep-sea animals) with one of my favorite names in years, but it just doesn't feel remotely holiday-themed in my personal opinion. Maybe I just don't have thalassophobia.

Being rude to the spriters is completely unwarranted and unacceptable (especially since it sounds like it isn't even really their call which concept gets picked), but I think it's perfectly fair to express disappointment. As vague as saying it doesn't "feel Halloween-themed" is, I personally think the "generic" or "stereotypical" Halloween theme is the most versatile out of all the holidays Dragcave celebrates (I mean you've got all the monsters of human history to go off of for inspiration, plus candy), so it's especially puzzling. The Halloween release only happens once a year, so it's hard not to feel a twinge of disappointment when it feels like the dragon, no matter how cool, could have been released at any time.

Again, I love the dragon and respect the hard work Schenanigans and MoonShark put into making it. This is probably the coolest deep-sea dragon we've gotten to date as far as I'm concerned, my only gripe with it is the time of release. Thank you to the conceptor and spriter for making it happen, and I'm sorry to cut my fangirling with criticism.

[SharaIshvalda]

4 hours ago, mishhelle said:

I’ll probably get in trouble for posting this but I’m going to do it anyway. 

 

humans have such a gross way of treating others when they don’t stick to societal norms, and that’s exactly what is happening here. 

 

some of y’all get so upset when event dragons don’t fit into your ideas of what a holiday “traditionally” represents. and you come on here stating your opinions because you feel entitled to voice your displeasure that Abyss Watchers aren’t Halloween-y enough, in hopes that our artists will “do better” (read: do what’s always been done) to please you next time. you're so hung up on your entitlement to state your opinion that you forget these are real people with feelings who are creating art for Dragon Cave. 

 

I’m done with this thread (and the forum for awhile), but I’ll end this by saying I think it’s refreshing that the artists and TJ himself want to think outside of the box when it comes to event dragons. 

Well it's great this isn't seen as rude but suggestions and generic "this doesn't feel Halloween enough for me" comments are.

 

The fact of the matter is people have different ideas for Halloween! It's subjective. And it's also fact that you cannot please everyone. Some people like the breed and are expressing their like of it, some people don't like the breed and are expressing what they think could've been done different or why the breed isn't clicking with them? That's not a crime. None of us are bashing on the spriters, lol.

Edited November 4, 2023 by SharaIshvalda

[Fly-by-Night]

3 hours ago, blah said:

Last comment on this as it’s pretty off-topic. I know that some regions also celebrate Martin Luther but he is not the origin of that celebration.

Never said it was. It's just what I grew up with.

 

That said, I really like the cute hatchis. It's sad I'll have to wait another year to see them again.

[Momoness]

4 minutes ago, SharaIshvalda said:

Well it's great this isn't seen as rude but suggestions and generic "this doesn't feel Halloween enough for me" comments are.

I would imagine it has to do with the contextual difference that the latter is harping on what artists haven't done right/how they have been "disappointing," versus someone attempting to explain how disappointing it is that some people are hashing out the same point 50 times as though it gives new insightful critique every time? 

 

Which is more "Rude" is going to be just as subjective as anything else said here I guess LOL. 

[Stormphoenix42]

Quote

Even if eldritch theme suggestion isnt used on this one specific dragon it could be used another year, or on an actual common release like with Labradorites, so I dont see how its irrelevant or unproductive given how a highlighted comment here was something like "are the spriters running out if ideas?" What if I suggest next years ween to have an uncanny humanoid face or face-like pattern?

A Halloween submission with an uncanny humanoid face sounds really cool! That's an interesting idea that I would love to see. This thread isn't the place for it - that would be an idea for you to work on privately with an artist (since holiday submissions are kept secret) or in the Dragon Requests thread, if you think it could work as a normal release.

(But just to clarify, the spriters are not running out of ideas - as mentioned, there were a lot of submissions that did not get selected, simply due to the limited nature of the release.)
 

Quote

Is that constructive criticism relevant to Abyssal Wyrms? Can you please give an example of "helpful constructive criticism" for Abyssal Wyrms because I am failing to comprehend what that is supposed to be.

No, a suggestion for a different type of dragon is not a constructive criticism of the dragon that was released (though I do think if you have ideas, you should work on getting them developed!) Someone else probably has a better answer for what "constructive criticism" actually looks like, but typically it's things like "the shading here is a little unclear" or "It's hard to read the pose" or things about the sprite itself, not just that you don't think the concept fits the idea of Halloween. (Edit to clarify: the eldritch/tentacle suggestions, for example. That's not a critique, that's suggesting a different concept. The artist/conceptor submitted their vision, and it's ok if you have a different one! But that doesn't mean theirs is bad, or that points where it diverges from your idea need to be "fixed.")

Edited November 4, 2023 by Stormphoenix42

[Kiramu]

I like the sprites, but I guess I expected something less deep sea looking and more creep factor - but,

 

Credit to the artists, good work

[meeps114]

@Luckystarz103 - A couple of notes.

 

1. I didn't just reference the hours the spriters spent on this, but also that they did it for free. You didn't acknowledge that in your comment, but you did mention that TJ is the one who isn't doing this for free. Okay, so seeing as he's the one delivering a product for us, keeping feedback that's relevant to him and not the people that are volunteers makes more sense. So saying "I would love a more halloweeny Halloween dragon next year or something with classic Eldritch features such as tentacles" gets the job done without making the people who voluntarily give us more free content feel discouraged. The other person that clarified my comment has it right, and I agree with the idea of critiquing what can be changed for next year vs. what can't be. At the end of the day, we aren't spriters and this isn't a thread in the "dragon suggestions" thread, so throwing out specific criticisms with the art is less constructive than critiquing the overall theme.

 

2.  Even if someone were to critique the sprites more specifically, I think the way you phrased your original comment in particular was very dismissive and didn't acknowledge any of the hard work that went into it. "You could've at least done X..." has a pretty snarky tone to it, IMO. I don't criticize my coworkers like that at work, and that's people who are actually paid to be there, not volunteers. @Stormphoenix42 and @dracornithologist provided some good feedback as well on why that comment isn't constructive. The phrasing implied that your idea is inherently the right one and that it was the least they could've done -- idk dude, that's just pretty harsh phrasing. 

 

3. Ofc the artists should be treated respectfully inherently, but on another note, treating our artists callously and feeling entitled to certain concepts being included, could making them reluctant to come back and submit their art again, and that would lead to the death of the site.

 

So, all of my comments are to say that constructive criticism is totally fine, but that it should be well-thought out, considerate of other's feelings, and respectful. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by meeps114

[blockEdragon]

Saying they're not Halloween-y is a perfectly fair, but somewhat poorly phrased critique. The problem is that, much like a jaunty fiddle soundtrack assigned to a dramatic death scene in a movie, they're not evoking the themes and feelings they were supposedly intended to.

They're not thalassophobia dragons, at least thay're not good at being such a thing. Thalassophobia largely comes from the fear of the unknown and the potential dangers posed by things and places not fit for human trespass. The ocean isn't scary because it's sometimes glow-y, ESPECIALLY in DC's setting - half the roster glows at this point! The ocean is scary to some people because it's vast, full of creatures you don't fully understand, and because it's innately hostile to human life. If you wanted to evoke thalassophobia you'd need to go deeper and make them look more alien and threatening, extra eyes and some glowing aren't going to cut it. Their lore is fine but ill-fitting because they're too understood, harmless, and mundane to evoke the fear of the unknown and dangers in the depths.

If you wanted to make that theme fit this breed you'd need a rewrite (and probably a redesign for good measure). For example, maybe something along the lines of a siren's-call angle like "Many sailors tell tales of ships that drew too close, only for some of the people aboard to be enthralled by the allure of the eerie lights, mindlessly leaping overboard to their watery graves" it doesn't have to be a confirmed thing, it just has to be plausible enough that it gets the imagination going. And Instead of outright stating that the dragons are just there to have their babies and leave you could leave their motives for being near the surface to the imagination.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by blockEdragon

[dracornithologist]

4 minutes ago, Luckystarz103 said:

So no feedback is constructive at all? gotcha

 

Oh but suddenly it is constructive when you just dont relate it to a past release? you need to make up your mind on whether finished products can be critiqued or not, the tentacle idea didnt come out of nowhere, hence its relevance to a "past release"

 

___

@Stormphoenix42 Thankyou for explaining it in simple terms.

I think I've been quite clear that I don't personally view critiques (in the news forum, where we're celebrating the new release and Halloween events, as opposed to, as I've suggested multiple times, in the site discussion forum) of something that is already released as "productive" since they're not going to be changed. I've been really respectful and I've tried to engage genuinely with your points, so I dont understand why you're treating me with aggression in return. It feels like you're misconstruing me on purpose; I've said multiple times now that my preferred solution would be a thread under site discussion where people can express what they like and don't like, what they want and don't want regarding future releases, in a place where that feedback could be a little more chill and a little more useful for the people working on it. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by dracornithologist

[Momoness]

16 minutes ago, SharaIshvalda said:

And where are the people harping on the artists? All I see is people making suggestions for what would've made them like the breed and "it doesn't feel Halloween enough for me" comments. That is not harping.

Oh, I said "harping on what the artists haven't done right or what was so disappointing about their work" actually! Not specifically the artists, there was a bit more to that sentence. 

 

In any event, I think the people commenting what they like about the dragons but also the "not halloweeny" bit aren't really the focus of others' discontent. Those are pretty tame and fine and good (in my opinion). But there is definitely a spectrum of the "I don't like it" comments here, objectively speaking.