The AP Problem and How to Fix it

[Guillotine]

No support to change Xeno breeding behaviors--I have a line that outright requires the current behavior, even if it will take a very long time to reach the end state, and I can't just switch what breeds I'm using because the only other options don't behave in the correct way for the punchline of the lineage to make sense (not to mention the pun I'm breeding towards breaking if I use any other breed). Changing breeding behavior has historically landed badly anyway, and even changes made years ago are still looked back on with some ire because of now-impossible lineages.

 

This is a broader problem with how the ratios function, not an issue of Xenowyrms specifically.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Guillotine

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

1 hour ago, birdzgoboom said:

2) The issue with a clogged AP/AP wall is not an issue that is exclusive to only the Xenowyrms. There have been consistent complaints about AP walls, due to mass-breedings, for many years. A number of breeds have been named alongside those complaints; Blacktips, for example, are another breed I have seen mentioned in the past.

Xenos have been taking up the AP consistently every day (except for holidays) for well over a year. Blacktip mass breedings are only occasional and don't even come close in comparison. 

[birdzgoboom]

1 hour ago, Shadowdrake said:

I hate to say it, but this may not work on xenos in particular due to them being considered separate breeds by the game, unless TJ does some finagling to how this mechanic would work. Otherwise I wouldn't mind it (but as the AP already had one anti-wall measure added I dunno how willing he'd be to add another on top).

 

Holiday eggs are filtered in the AP during those breeding windows, even with them all being completely separate breeds.  I'm not sure of whether or not the coding behind the scenes would be different for Xenowyrms (or any other breed that is handled the way Xenos are on the backend), but it has been demonstrated that there are ways to adjust how much AP-space is taken up by particular breed types or groups of breeds. So, I would hesitate to rule this idea out unless TJ says otherwise!

 

Regarding anti-wall measures, methods can be put in place that help alleviate issues but don't actually solve the full problem (or, they solve the problem at the time, but then new problems arise later as the game grows). If mass-breeding still causes frustration, then I would still wager it's worth looking into the entire AP system and re-evaluating its behaviour from a base level. I would rather see elements of the game changed in ways that actually create long-lasting, positive improvements.

 

Sometimes systems need to be completely overhauled to accommodate for the way a game (and its mechanics) changes with time. I see no reason as to why that same logic would not apply to Dragon Cave, or the AP. 

 

50 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

Xenos have been taking up the AP consistently every day (except for holidays) for well over a year. Blacktip mass breedings are only occasional and don't even come close in comparison. 

This is largely irrelevant and still does not mean it is a standalone issue for the Xenowyrms, and my stance on this would not change regardless of it was my breed or anyone else's. Just because they are the hot button breed at the moment does not mean that they will always be, or that another breed can't take their place (even if occasionally). Again, it is a symptom of a larger problem with the AP and/or ratios. It is imperative to look beyond singling out of any particular breed to burrow down to the base issue, which is something that has been a point of contention for years, well before the Xenowyrms were as commonly bred as they are now. This was the overarching point of my original post.

 

If someone decided to mass-breed any other more common breeds (I just used the Blacktip as an example) regularly, the same problem would occur. If another breed came out in the future that had some incentive to breed consistently for one reason or another, they would take up a large amount of AP real-estate too. That means that it is not a Xenowyrm issue-- it is a user experience issue stemming from how the AP handles large quantities of eggs of the same breed. 

 

It would be unwise to ignore this overarching issue in lieu of forcing changes upon specific breeds. In the case of the Xenowyrms, changing their breeding patterns would essentially disincentivise a consistent, less time-consuming method of interaction with the game by removing the possibility of obtaining rare offspring by breeding. This would again lead to an environment where the only way that someone can get a Staterae is by having an excess of time or resources to do so (by cave-stalking and grinding for money to buy off the market). That is unfair to those players; not everyone has that amount of time or wherewithal for one reason or another, so I will stand by that choice.

Edited April 15, 2023 by birdzgoboom

[StarlightLion]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Regular Xenos aren't rare at all - except for stats they are a mere 3-400 in the market,.

I don't support this suggestion overall, but this criticism specifically just isn't valid. Market prices are indicators of how rare a breed is supposed to be, but one of the many reasons the playerbase at large want the ratios/rarity system changed is because it just doesn't work. Market-indicated rarity simply isn't true as it interacts with the players. Xenos might be intended to be uncommons, but they are rare.

[KageSora]

I recall at one point seeing a suggestion for influencing egg breed...  A fertility tweak, maybe?

 

Anyway an action or BSA that, when used, means the only possible egg you would obtain would be the parent it was used on.  So like Gold x Pink would ONLY give a Gold.  It wouldn't boost chances for a Gold specifically, just that if the RNG landed on Pink egg it would change to no egg instead.

 

You could take it a step further and have you select which breed you want it to limit it to, for dragons capable of producing multiple types.  It would have to be an instance of the lore and the mechanics being separate, but it would be useful as a quality of life improvement for players.  (Possibly also applicable for hybrids, of course if you tried to breed to a dragon that can't produce the hybrid you've basically thrown a breeding away as you had a 0% chance of success...)

 

Obviously that wouldn't address people mass-breeding Xenos (or any other breed) for fun, but it might help cut down on the amount of excess eggs if instead people were opting to get no egg results instead of the "wrong" egg.

[Thorn4]

I also love the Xeno breeds, they have some of the most amazing sprite art in the game, and I'm still missing a Staterae variant as of this post. I just grabbed a whole bunch off the ap earlier as well. Perhaps limiting them to only being able to breed with the same variant, and not with any other species, that would definitely cut down on the number of eggs.

 

Edit: After reading a couple posts, I know this probably won't happen but if there was a breed limit put in place each day or even a weekly limit so people can't mass-breed hundreds of dragons like I've seen some people admit to doing. The alternative is getting rid of auto-abandon all together and once you hit your egg limit, you can't have or breed for any more at all - but I know that will never happen, though it is an option if things got insane.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Thorn4
More info

[Guillotine]

32 minutes ago, StarlightLion said:

I don't support this suggestion overall, but this criticism specifically just isn't valid. Market prices are indicators of how rare a breed is supposed to be, but one of the many reasons the playerbase at large want the ratios/rarity system changed is because it just doesn't work. Market-indicated rarity simply isn't true as it interacts with the players. Xenos might be intended to be uncommons, but they are rare.

They really aren't? They had a bit of user-driven rarity increase on release, but Xenos as a whole behave consistently with other uncommon breeds in the cave--the difference is that the other breeds don't have an incentive to breed them en masse.

 

This is an issue of underlying systems, not just Xenowyrms.

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

1 hour ago, birdzgoboom said:

This is largely irrelevant and still does not mean it is a standalone issue for the Xenowyrms, and my stance on this would not change regardless of it was my breed or anyone else's. Just because they are the hot button breed at the moment does not mean that they will always be, or that another breed can't take their place (even if occasionally). 

It is not irrelevant that seeing the AP without Xeno eggs in it has become a rare event. They're not the "hot button breed of the moment," because it's been day after day, month after month. 

 

 

The new hybrid fails in the AP were barely a blip in the chain of Xeno eggs.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

10 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

It is not irrelevant that seeing the AP without Xeno eggs in it has become a rare event. They're not the "hot button breed of the moment," because it's been day after day, month after month. 

 

 

The new hybrid fails in the AP were barely a blip in the chain of Xeno eggs.

I have said this before and will say this again: I mentioned at one point in January that Xenos were mainly in the ap. They were everywhere in the ap about a month before that. Day after day going into the ap was just full of Xeno eggs. When a wall of a different breed comes and goes (say pyroars) guess which eggs are front and center. Xenos. It's been straight constant xenos with minor breaks for months

[KageSora]

4 minutes ago, MoonlitEevee said:

I have said this before and will say this again: I mentioned at one point in January that Xenos were mainly in the ap. They were everywhere in the ap about a month before that. Day after day going into the ap was just full of Xeno eggs. When a wall of a different breed comes and goes (say pyroars) guess which eggs are front and center. Xenos. It's been straight constant xenos with minor breaks for months

 

22 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

It is not irrelevant that seeing the AP without Xeno eggs in it has become a rare event. They're not the "hot button breed of the moment," because it's been day after day, month after month.

 

It's "irrelevant" that the current problem is Xenos because this is a problem based on underlying causes that can manifest in several different ways and which is not nor will for sure be specially unique to Xenos and Xenos alone for the entire life of the site.

 

It's better to address the issue at the root causes than just apply a bandage fix targeting the current problem breed and leave it open to happening again if another breed like Xenos ever comes along.  (And it could--there's no reason why we can't get another breed with a bunch of sub-species that can produce each other and a rarer one that costs an absolutely obscene amount of shards to get even a single one of.  Addressing the underlying problem would mitigate the xeno issue, future-proof the site to a degree against any other breeds that behave similarly causing this sort of problem, and would also help deal with the smaller but still existing walls that happen from time to time--people complain loudly at times when there's a day+ wall of celestials and stuff like that, after all.)

 

Obviously, something should be done because yeah, it is frustrating.  But I think it's something that needs to be a broader fix than just targeting one specific breed.

[StarlightLion]

2 hours ago, Guillotine said:

They really aren't? They had a bit of user-driven rarity increase on release, but Xenos as a whole behave consistently with other uncommon breeds in the cave--the difference is that the other breeds don't have an incentive to breed them en masse.

 

This is an issue of underlying systems, not just Xenowyrms.

I'm not talking about their breeding ratios, but using the Market prices as a basis for rarity doesn't work in practice as it should in theory. Relativity is fine but the effective rarity of each breed as the players see them in the cave is very different. Xenos are a rare sight in the cave no matter their intended rarity - common breeds are an uncommon to rare sight in the cave, which has nothing to do with the ap suggestions but also means that simply saying Xenos are uncommons based on the Market value kind of just doesn't mean anything.

[purplehaze]

1 hour ago, KageSora said:

Obviously, something should be done because yeah, it is frustrating.  But I think it's something that needs to be a broader fix than just targeting one specific breed.

Agreed. There is a problem and seeing the AP full of Xenos most of the time is frustrating. I don't think that changing the way Xenos breed is the right fix for the problem, though, because I think the problem is bigger than just Xeno breeding.

[missy_]

3 hours ago, birdzgoboom said:

an environment where the only way that someone can get a Staterae is by having an excess of time or resources to do so (by cave-stalking and grinding for money to buy off the market). That is unfair to those players; not everyone has that amount of time

But if even 20 breedings by a pair isn't reliable enough to produce a Stat, then everyone is spending an enormous amount of time and energy on trying to breed Stats, hunting for Stats, sifting through mounds of AP discards, just to find a Stat. Why can't Xenos and Stats be at least reliably able to produce a Stat egg say, once every 10-15 breedings? In other words, a pair of Xenos mating could produce a Stat roughly once in every 10 or 15 breedings instead of once every 50 breedings or not at all, or whatever the current number is. (It seems very small.)

Edited April 16, 2023 by missy_

[Fuzzbucket]

As a matter of interest - I just went back to look at the pretty xenos I picked up yesterday - and all but one were bred by the same player - and so were a good few more I threw back. NONE of those would have welcomed a stat. Blaming stats is not the answer. (Don't all rush to look; it's a player I very much respect, so I just hid my scroll so they cannot be identified !)

Edited April 16, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[birdzgoboom]

7 hours ago, KageSora said:

[snip for length]

 

Thank you KageSora, this is precisely my point.

 

The reason why the Xenos are a more consistent "problem" is because they are a breed that incentivises breeding them regularly (for various reasons: dynamic lineage projects being a massive one that is also being overlooked in lieu of the Staterae bit). They are a breed that rewards breeding them with many different offspring possibilities thanks to their versatility. So, naturally, people will be breeding them more regularly- which is not inherently a bad thing, and it definitely should not be discouraged.

 

I'm tired, though I'll use this opportunity to dig further into the broader topic that this thread stems from.

 

This post is going to be long since I would like to break this down from a User Experience lens.

 

Spoiler

I am writing this out because I genuinely would love to see the site improve for players in a meaningful way and think there are many opportunities for that. I care a lot about this game and whether or not people feel welcome, excited, and happy playing it. This is a complaint that I see regularly enough that I honestly believe it more than warrants the time needed to look into fixing it.

 

That being said, the way proposed in the OP is not the solution to the problem. 

 

I will break down exactly why I feel that is the case below using how my UX/UI team and I like to dissect situations like this.

 

The Core Gameplay + Purpose of the Game:

Looking back at the gameplay of Dragon Cave (or any game for that matter), all features of the game should service the game's ultimate goal/purpose.

 

The ultimate purpose of Dragon Cave is something that I cannot say myself since I'm not TJ. I don't know what his ultimate purpose of the game would be since I'm not him. I'm not sure if he wants people playing the game for 10 hours a day or 1 hour a day, or if it's meant to be a casual game you can drop out of and pick back up at any time, or if he intends for it to be something more hardcore if you drop out and miss a few years of releases (like games with power-creep). I don't know if he wants it to be widely accessible or more exclusive/difficult.

 

However, having played it for 13 years and been making stuff for it for going on 10 of those years, the current vibe I get is:

DC is intended to be a more broadly appealing, flexible, and accessible game that can be picked up and put down with little to moderate need for interaction on a daily basis, or for an extended period of time on any given day. (Of course if TJ tells me that my vibes are off and that his intention is different then my observation, then there's that, but this is how the game comes off to me as a player.)

 

The core gameplay should help players achieve that goal.

In the case of Dragon Cave, the core gameplay can cleanly be cut down into two simple words: Collecting dragons. 

 

There are five main methods of collecting dragons:

1. The Cave/Biomes
2. The Abandoned Page
3. The Market
4. Trading
5. Breeding

 

Okie doke. So, the core gameplay and main purpose of the game have been outlined.

 

The full Issue written in the OP:

Time to hop into evaluating the issue that's been observed in the OP,  and organise the information.
 

Spoiler

  The full OP:

Quote

First and foremost, I respect the time, art, and lore that went into all xenos. I understand that I can't tell people how to play the game or to stop breeding them. 

 

Unfortunately, some of us players are quite unhappy with how the ap keeps getting clogged up with Xenos. It's nice to have walls of a breed every now and then to lower ap times. However, I miss the ap when no one breed overtook another. Maybe, somehow I always miss it but I was pleasantly surprised to see one~three xenos in the ap at a time this morning (of course, they went back to clogging the ap with a few eggs scattered in there). I miss going in there to find hidden gems and random cbs without a constant xeno wall going on

 

I want this to be a peaceful suggestion thread as I've seen about 2 suggestions: 

• Have Stats only breed other Stats (while still producing Xenos as true to the lore)
• Have Xeno only produce other xenos.

The Primary Issue:

Quote

Unfortunately, some of us players are quite unhappy with how the ap keeps getting clogged up with Xenos. It's nice to have walls of a breed every now and then to lower ap times. However, I miss the ap when no one breed overtook another. Maybe, somehow I always miss it but I was pleasantly surprised to see one~three xenos in the ap at a time this morning (of course, they went back to clogging the ap with a few eggs scattered in there). I miss going in there to find hidden gems and random cbs without a constant xeno wall going on

 

The Proposed Solution:

Quote

I want this to be a peaceful suggestion thread as I've seen about 2 suggestions: 

• Have Stats only breed other Stats (while still producing Xenos as true to the lore)
• Have Xeno only produce other xenos.

 Additional Concern:

Quote

First and foremost, I respect the time, art, and lore that went into all xenos. I understand that I can't tell people how to play the game or to stop breeding them. 

 

OK, so that's the primary issue and the proposed solution, as well as an additional concern.

 

Evaluating the Proposed Solution: 

 

Time to evaluate the proposed solution in relation to the Core Gameplay + Purpose outlined earlier.

Primary Purpose:

DC is intended to be a more broadly appealing, flexible, and accessible game that can be picked up and put down with little to moderate need for interaction on a daily basis, or for an extended period of time on any given day.

Core Gameplay:

Collecting Dragons via at least one of the five methods available.

The proposed solution:

Changing the breeding behaviour of Xenowyrms. 

 

Time to see if there's any similar scenarios that have already existed in this game.

Let me pull this example that might seem unrelated on the surface, but when boiled down to its core, has the very same problem that this thread is proposing be applied to Xenowyrms' breeding possibilities:

Sweetling Dragons, Black Sweetling Dragons, and their exclusivity/availability.

 

Briefly breaking down the Sweetling issue:

Spoiler

The issue:

Black Sweetlings are only available to certain players, and Pink Sweetlings are only available to certain players. Players are upset that they cannot obtain both variants.

 

The Proposed Solution:

Make both Sweetlings able to breed either colour, regardless of scroll, so that everyone can get both colours.

(Additionally, players wanted CB Sweetling colours to not be scroll-locked so everyone could get CBs of either colour, but that's not relevant to this current thread, so I won't break this point down for brevity's sake.)

 

So... let's look at the breeding situation and apply our Core Gameplay and Primary Purpose to the situation to see if it's actually the core issue.

 

Original Behaviour:

Alt Sweetling scrolls could only have Black Sweetlings, and any Normal scrolls had only Pink Sweetlings.

This same scroll-based exclusivity applied to breeding offspring: meaning, Black Sweetling offspring could be Pink Sweetlings on Normal scrolls, and Pink Sweetling offspring could be Black Sweetlings on Alt scrolls.

Primary Purpose:

This directly conflicts with the Primary Purpose of the game, as it created an instance where players that were around for a very specific instance now have the Black Sweetling alt that no other player has access to, and also made it impossible for those players with Black Sweetlings to ever have Pinks. This conflicts with the goal of accessibility by way of FOMO and scroll-based exclusivity.

Core Gameplay:

This directly hinders the player's Core Gameplay experience by making it impossible to collect a certain variant of Dragon due to the scroll-based exclusivity. None of the methods are available to utilise. 

 

OK. So we've evaluated the Original Behaviour and have determined it to be the core issue here because it directly conflicts with the intentions of the game. Sweet, that means we can see if the player-proposed solution will solve it!

 

Examining Proposed Solution:

The Proposed Solution would change the Sweetlings' Behaviour to be:

Bred Sweetlings would no longer be scroll-locked to be either Pink or Black. All players would be able to get lineaged Sweetlings of either colour based on Black or Pink Sweetling parents.

Primary Purpose:

This aligns with the Primary Purpose of the game, as it alleviates the sense of FOMO and scroll-based exclusivity for lineaged Sweetlings.

Core Gameplay:

This directly improves the player's Core Gameplay experience by making it possible to collect both variants of the Sweetling Dragon.

 

The Result:

The solution that the userbase proposed at the time would have been an objective improvement to the gameplay and should have been applied.

 

 

 

...HOWEVER, due to unfortunate circumstances, that solution was not applied. Instead, the gameplay changed in a different way. Time to break down why that was not received all too well.

 

Examining Applied Solution:

The Applied Solution was:

1. Only Alt Scrolls can have Black Sweetlings
2. Only Black Sweetlings can produce Black Sweetlings

Primary Purpose:

This applied solution does not address the original behaviour's conflict. Scroll-based exclusivity still exists by barring Black Sweetlings from Normal scrolls.  Accessibility is an issue.

Core Gameplay:

This still directly hinders the player's Core Gameplay Experience, and the original conflict has only been partially addressed. Additionally, it's been made harder to obtain Black Sweetlings by removing the ability for Pinks to breed Blacks. Whilst allowing Alt Scrolls the possibility of obtaining Pink offspring has given them one method (breeding) with which to achieve the goal of the game, this has also raised a new issue in its entirety by creating an unfair disparity between users with Alt scrolls and Normal scrolls. This is due to Alt scrolls now having the advantage of being able to obtain both Black Sweetlings and Pink Sweetlings, whereas Normal scrolls are still only limited to Pink Sweetlings.

 

The Result:

The solution that was applied did not solve the core issue with the Sweetlings, and the playerbase was understandably unhappy.

This then would make the changes applied to Sweetlings an objective downgrade to the original gameplay.

 

 

 

OK. So now the similar scenerio has been evaluated... and this breakdown process will be applied to the Xenowyrm breeding behaviour, now:

Spoiler

Current Behaviour:

Xenowyrms are able to breed multiple types of offspring from various mates, including when mated with the same subspecies. The possibilities are: 

Spoiler

Xeno/Non-Xeno (regular biome):

Outcome 1: the Xeno breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get the Xeno corresponding to the Non-Xeno's biome

Outcome 4: you get a Staterae Dragon

 

Xeno/Non-Xeno (Cave):

Outcome 1: the Xeno breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get a random egg from the other 5 Xeno types

Outcome 4: you get a Staterae Dragon

 

Xeno/Xeno:

Outcome 1: they have a chance to breed Xeno from parent A

Outcome 2: they have chance to breed Xeno from parent B

Outcome 3: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types

Outcome 4: you get a Staterae Dragon

 

Staterae/Non-Xeno (regular biome):

Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get the Xeno corresponding to the Non-Xeno's biome*

Outcome 4: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types*

* (Outcomes 3/4 overlap here but the Non-Xeno biome has a higher chance so I separated the two)

 

Staterae/Non-Xeno (Cave):

Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get a random egg from the other subspecies of Xeno types

 

Staterae/Xeno:

Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Xeno breed*

Outcome 3: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types*

* (Outcomes 2/3 overlap here but the Xeno parent has a higher chance so I separated the two)

 

Staterae/Staterae:
Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true
Outcome 2: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types.

Primary Purpose:

There is no inherent conflict with specifically this mechanic as written.

1. It provides 22/24 distinct opportunities for players to breed different kinds of offspring.
2. Additionally, it adds another avenue of accessibility for the Staterae Dragon, which is a rare breed that otherwise can only be obtained via hunting or market purchase.
    
3. Breeds/subspecies involved are always available and not exclusive.

Core Gameplay:

This actively aligns with the Core Gameplay in that it provides more options and flexibility in collecting dragons: in this case, dragons with different kinds of lineages, or obtaining a rare dragon breed.

The Result:

At the base level, Xenowyrm/Staterae breeding does not inherently seem to have a problem with it. However, it's always good to evaluate the proposed solution just in case there's an opportunity for improvement with their suggestion.

 

OP's Proposed Solution:

What this thread is proposing, if implemented, would instill a change where both Xenowyrm and Staterae breeding mechanics are affected.  This would change the possibilities to the ones listed below.

Spoiler

Xeno/Non-Xeno (regular biome):

Outcome 1: the Xeno breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get the Xeno corresponding to the Non-Xeno's biome

Outcome 4: you get a Staterae Dragon

 

Xeno/Non-Xeno (Cave):

Outcome 1: the Xeno breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get a random egg from the other 5 Xeno types

Outcome 4: you get a Staterae Dragon

 

Xeno/Xeno:

Outcome 1: they have a chance to breed Xeno from parent A

Outcome 2: they have chance to breed Xeno from parent B

Outcome 3: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types

Outcome 4: you get a Staterae Dragon

 

Staterae/Non-Xeno (regular biome):

Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get the Xeno corresponding to the Non-Xeno's biome*

Outcome 4: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types*

* (Outcomes 3/4 overlap here but the Non-Xeno biome has a higher chance so I separated the two)

 

Staterae/Non-Xeno (Cave):

Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Non-Xeno breed

Outcome 3: you get a random egg from the other subspecies of Xeno types

 

Staterae/Xeno:

Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true

Outcome 2: you get an egg from the Xeno breed*

Outcome 3: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types*

* (Outcomes 2/3 overlap here but the Xeno parent has a higher chance so I separated the two)

 

Staterae/Staterae:
Outcome 1: the Staterae breeds true
Outcome 2: they have a smaller chance to breed one of the other subspecies of Xeno types.

 

Primary Purpose:

This solution conflicts with the Primary Purpose of the game.

The reasonings are as follows:

1. It decreases the breeding possibilities from 22-24 down to 19-21
2. This decrease also has the additional ramification of removing an avenue of accessibility for obtaining the Staterae Dragon
3. This change makes it so the only way to obtain them is by cave-hunting or grinding for currency, which are processes that demand longer periods of a player's time, hindering accessibility
4. Makes the game less appealing to those players who are more casual due to an increase in exclusivity to a rare dragon breed

Core Gameplay:

This solution directly hinders the Core Gameplay by making it harder to collect Staterae Dragons by removing an entire method of obtaining (breeding via Xenos).

This also creates a disparity by giving an unfairly massive advantage to players that:

1. Already own a Staterae
2. Have more time to sit and play the game for extended sessions to cave hunt/grind, versus those that have shorter/more sporadic sessions
    

The Result:

The Proposed Solution creates a new issue by making Staterae Dragons more difficult to obtain, removing breeding possibilities, and creating player opportunity disparity.

Also, it'll cause problems with the Additional Concern raised in the OP:

Spoiler

 

Quote

First and foremost, I respect the time, art, and lore that went into all xenos. I understand that I can't tell people how to play the game or to stop breeding them. 

Should something that seemingly has a lot of player interaction and interest be changed to nerf it? What good does that do to limit what the players can create with their Xenowyrm Dragons for their lineage projects? That certainly doesn't seem like an improvement from this viewpoint, either!

 

This then would make the changes to proposed to Xenowyrm breeding an objective downgrade to the current gameplay.

 

So... this has determined that the Xenowyrm's Current Gameplay is not problematic, and the Proposed Solution in the OP is not an improvement to it.

 

That means it's time to re-evaluate the issue itself and peel away all the extra stuff to try to uncover if there's a root cause.

 

Re-evaluating the Issue raised in the OP:

 

Now, looking at the OP, the complaint was:

Quote

"Unfortunately, some of us players are quite unhappy with how the ap keeps getting clogged up with Xenos. It's nice to have walls of a breed every now and then to lower ap times. However, I miss the ap when no one breed overtook another."

So, on at first, it might seem like it's the Xenowyrms' breeding behaviour that's at fault. However, as already broken down above, the Xenowyrm breeding mechanic is currently, objectively, a fairly diverse opportunity for players to get the enjoyment out of the core element of the game, and the changes proposed are an active downgrade to the gameplay because it reduces those opportunities.

 

Time to peel more stuff off and look again to try to get to the the very base.

 

Upon review, the issue at its core can be boiled down to this one line:

Quote

"[...] I miss the ap when no one breed overtook another."

 

Looking back historically, we have seen that breeds other than just Xenowyrms can produce that same issue when they are mass-bred to the AP.

So, there's reason to believe the actual issue is unrelated to the Xenowyrms, and their consistent appearance in the AP is a simply a symptom of an larger problem:

 

That issue being that one breed has the ability to overtake the AP.

 

Now that the source problem is actually uncovered, I will break it down like before, but with the OP's issue in mind:

Spoiler

Current Behaviour:

Currently, this is how the AP works:

1. It has 30 active visible spots that users can take eggs from.
2. It has a filter that will show one line of Non-Holiday eggs during Holiday breeding periods to help players still collect normal dragon breeds during this period
3. This same filter is applied to ensure that one line of the AP is guaranteed to not be the eggs of a specific abandoner

Whilst this behaviour generally works fine for most circumstances, as well as Holidays, the filter itself does not account for the problem raised in the OP. There are no filters to account for an overabundance of a specific breed, only specific abandoner. That means the current behaviour of the AP is not the ideal gameplay experience and can be improved.

 

So, how can this be fixed? I'll use my suggestion of changing the filtering for visible eggs in the AP as the Proposed Solution here.

 

Proposed Solution:

Improve the filter capabilities of the AP to account for the problem raised in the OP, so that no one breed can flood the AP at a time.

The AP would work as follows:

1. It would have 30 active visible spots that users can take eggs from.
2. It would have a filter that will show one line of Non-Holiday eggs during Holiday breeding periods to help players still collect normal dragon breeds during this period
3. This same filter would be applied to ensure that one line of the AP is guaranteed to not be the eggs of a specific abandoner or specific breed

What this change would affect:

1.  Dragons from one specific abandoner cannot fill all 30 slots of the AP
2.  One specific dragon breed cannot fill all 30 slots of the AP

This change changes the filtering of the AP to address the problem raised in the OP by improving the original AP filtering to account for too many of one type of dragon filling the AP. That means the proposed change to the AP is an objective improvement to the current gameplay by solving the root issue.

 

OK. Proposed Solution works. That means that hey, we've found our actual issue here, underneath all the symptoms.

Then you apply this Proposed Solution the game purpose/core gamplay as a whole, and so-on, to determine other aspects like "how many slots should certain eggs take up on the page," etc to try to figure out the happy spots for the finer details.

 

This can (and will) spiral into bigger discussions regarding the issues with ratios, market availibility, and so on. The reason why is because there are a number of much larger underlying issues with the gameplay that inconveniences like AP-walls are a symptom of.

 

 

---

 

This post is already pretty long so I'll stop there. I will continue to sincerely suggest the scrutiny be redirected more towards improving the overall AP experience (and ideally other larger aspects of the game, such as ratios) as I believe that would make longer-lasting improvements that would make more players happy.

Edited April 16, 2023 by birdzgoboom
for some reason the formatting was insanely weird bc i use dark mode on my browser, so i fixed it

[Moonlight_Eevee]

While I agree that there are some eggs that take over the ap like celestials and/or maybe blacktips because of underlying issues, they usually clear up in a couple of days.

 

54 minutes ago, birdzgoboom said:

This same filter would be applied to ensure that one line of the AP is guaranteed to not be the eggs of a specific abandoner or specific breed

I'd be fine with that assuming we only get 2 rows of xenos at a time. If each xeno is considered different from each other, that'd be 12 slots. It's still a bit not ideal but I guess it'd be better than nothing. 

[Naruhina_94]

Could we have two different AP pages?

 

One would be reserved for the most present breed, whatever it is at the time, followed by the second and so on. We could call this: "the mass bred AP"

The second one, easly accessible from the main page as the other one, would contain all the other eggs. This one may be called simply "AP"

 

This would allow to showcase more abandoned eggs from all the player userbase. What would you think?

 

 

[MissK.]

Technically, this problem is specific to Xenos and also isn't. It's specific to xenos right now because they're the only breed(s) that can randomly produce an extremely rare variant, and also a large number of others, which means a lot of people breed just for stats and a lot more people breed for specific other types of xenos, dumping all the fails in the AP. Which...should have been entirely predictable behaviour, since we've been through all this before. 

 

Back in the day, alt blacks and dark greens had different egg sprites, so we could immediately tell if it was an alt or regular. That of course resulted in people constantly breeding them, and dumping all the fails in the AP which was very commonly black and green. This was eventually changed so that people couldn't tell before hatching the egg, which solved the AP problem. Admittedly I don't recall if a reason for the change was given, and if it was specifically for the AP or not. But the point is, right now this issue is exclusive to xenos, and it is more extreme than just breeds that get occasionally massbred. In the future, it will probably happen again with any potential breed that can produce a super rare variant. 

 

I don't know if there's a good solution here. It doesn't seem like there's a good quick fix, so it kinda depends on if TJ is willing to overhaul the ratios and/or the AP system. 

[Fuzzbucket]

Spoiler

 

 

Thanks @birdzgoboom - I absolutely agree with every word you have posted.

 

59 minutes ago, Naruhina_94 said:

Could we have two different AP pages?

 

One would be reserved for the most present breed, whatever it is at the time, followed by the second and so on. We could call this: "the mass bred AP"

The second one, easly accessible from the main page as the other one, would contain all the other eggs. This one may be called simply "AP"

 

This would allow to showcase more abandoned eggs from all the player userbase. What would you think?

 

Whenever anyone has suggested a second AP page for anything perceived as an issue, @TJ09 has said there will only ever be one as all players must be viewing the same AP page. So I can't see him saying anjything different this time.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Fuzzbucket
HOW has my PC developed auto(in)correct....

[Moonlight_Eevee]

I wouldn't be opposed to a secondary ap to prevent stuff like this from happening.

 

Sorry for the big picture, on mobile, but this wall has been basically nonstop since January-ish. 

[missy_]

This is the AP right now. There's a total of one whole egg in there that is not a Xeno.🙃 Even though DC has 267 breeds in the cave that aren't holiday.

 

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, MoonlitEevee said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a secondary ap to prevent stuff like this from happening.

 

I am still willing to bet good money that that will never happen.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

4 hours ago, MoonlitEevee said:

While I agree that there are some eggs that take over the ap like celestials and/or maybe blacktips because of underlying issues, they usually clear up in a couple of days.

 

Again, xenos cannot be treated specially as if they will always be a unique version of this issue instead of simply the current most extreme manifestation of other issues.

 

Right now those other breeds clear up quickly.  But, again, there's no guarantee that another breed can't have a similar problem in the future.  And as @MissK. pointed out, this is NOT the first time there have been long-lasting walls of a breed blocking off the AP.

 

(Also, for the record, I regularly see the AP half xenos or less, sometimes with almost no xenos at all.  In fact, as of the moment, it's a little less than half xeno.  It might have to do with what time you play compared to what time of day they get bred if you've only been seeing walls for months on end.)

[Starscream]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Thanks @birdzgoboom - I absolutely agree with every word you have posted.

 

 

Whenever anyone has suggested a second AP page for anything perceived as an issue, @TJ09 has said there will only ever be one as all players must be viewing the same AP page. So I can't see him saying anjything different this time.

I agree with birdz as well. In the sweetling department (I'm an alt scroll) I find the situation has worsened, not improved. I'm at the stage now that maybe we should permit black alt sweets to turn black (if they have the parents) on the pink flagged scrolls. I feel guilty because I can have both but my friends can't- to be frank, its hellishly not fair.

 

As far as the Xeno issue goes, the only solution I can offer is have all eggs either one style or that the strato doesn't have its own egg, but can show up in any of the other variants much like the alt green and alt black. Sadly that would reduce the pretty eggs.  But its the only solution I can offer. this means that the AP my be filled with hatched worms, but hatchlings tend to be less of a hassle to take in than eggs.

 

[schenanigans]

I'm glad that we are nitpicking the times that we want to show when the AP is flooded with xenos. I just walked into the AP right now and there's 3 whole rows of not xenos. 

 

The other day I was looking for CBs with specific dates for a celebration lineage in the AP. Earlier in the day, the AP had mostly xenos, but everything (mostly non-xeno, but some xenos) I was picking up to check had lovely lineages - and a lot of them were beautiful 3G-4G SAltkin! They weren't what I was looking for, so I left to do something else. Later in the day I tried again, and not only did I get my fill of CBs that I wanted, I was able to hunt enough of them to pick and choose which colors CBs I wanted for this lineage and toss the ones I didn't want/need. I also found a CB Golden Wyvern, which was an absolute delight to be able to grab unexpectedly with the date I was seeking. So I wildly disagree with the complaint that the AP never has hidden gems or CBs to hunt for - it might take a little more sifting at the moment, but it's all still there. 

 

Ignoring well thought out alternatives, buckling down on the original suggestions presented by the OP against the Xeno creator's wishes, and sharing screenshots of the AP to go "see there's a problem!!!" Is just coming across as entitled and whiney. I think the OP suggestion should be reassessed to consider and/or include other suggestions presented here that tackle to underlying problem rather than attacking Xenos specifically. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by schenanigans