The AP Problem and How to Fix it

[Fuzzbucket]

41 minutes ago, Starscream said:

I agree with birdz as well. In the sweetling department (I'm an alt scroll) I find the situation has worsened, not improved. I'm at the stage now that maybe we should permit black alt sweets to turn black (if they have the parents) on the pink flagged scrolls. I feel guilty because I can have both but my friends can't- to be frank, its hellishly not fair.

At least part of the sweetling decision was down to Kila - her choice, we need to respect that. She didn't HAVE to do anything at the time !

 

41 minutes ago, Starscream said:

As far as the Xeno issue goes, the only solution I can offer is have all eggs either one style or that the strato doesn't have its own egg, but can show up in any of the other variants much like the alt green and alt black. Sadly that would reduce the pretty eggs.  But its the only solution I can offer. this means that the AP my be filled with hatched worms, but hatchlings tend to be less of a hassle to take in than eggs.

How do you mean - all eggs have one style ?

 

37 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

I'm glad that we are nitpicking the times that we want to show when the AP is flooded with xenos. I just walked into the AP right now and there's 3 whole rows of not xenos. 

 

The other day I was looking for CBs with specific dates for a celebration lineage in the AP. Earlier in the day, the AP had mostly xenos, but everything (mostly non-xeno, but some xenos) I was picking up to check had lovely lineages - and a lot of them were beautiful 3G-4G SAltkin! They weren't what I was looking for, so I left to do something else. Later in the day I tried again, and not only did I get my fill of CBs that I wanted, I was able to hunt enough of them to pick and choose which colors CBs I wanted for this lineage and toss the ones I didn't want/need. I also found a CB Golden Wyvern, which was an absolute delight to be able to grab unexpectedly with the date I was seeking. So I wildly disagree with the complaint that the AP never has hidden gems or CBs to hunt for - it might take a little more sifting at the moment, but it's all still there. 

Exactly this. I haven't seen all xenos very often - as I said yesteryear. I hate celestial walls MUCH more...

 

37 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

 

Ignoring well thought out alternatives, buckling down on the original suggestions presented by the OP against the Xeno creator's wishes, and sharing screenshots of the AP to go "see there's a problem!!!" Is just coming across as entitled and whiney. I think the OP suggestion should be reassessed to consider and/or include other suggestions presented here that tackle to underlying problem rather than attacking Xenos specifically. 

 

YES. Thanks for saying this. Xenos as xenos (including strats) work just fine; it seems to be the ratios that are  more of an issue - that and there ARE people who are deliberately breeding to walls. 

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Since the issue goes much deeper than Xenos, Celestials, Blacktips, etc. I will be updating my original post to reflect the root of the issue in a little bit. 

[Starscream]

30 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

How do you mean - all eggs have one style ?

Either that or, Strato's could be an alt that comes from any of the other styles. The former kinda sucks because those eggs are very beautiful, the latter is a bit more "logical". or at least in my mind.

[missy_]

7 hours ago, birdzgoboom said:

DC is intended to be a more broadly appealing, flexible, and accessible game

And if that's the case, one breed out of 267 breeds should not be allowed to take over the AP.  Regardless of the breed, no breedable dragon should be so rare and difficult to obtain by breeding that it's almost impossible to breed. Xenos should throw Stats more often, and Stats should throw Stats more often, to resemble something that gives players a sporting chance of getting one.
 

7 hours ago, birdzgoboom said:

applied to Xenowyrms' breeding possibilities:

Sweetling Dragons, Black Sweetling Dragons, and their exclusivity/availability.

The topic of Sweetlings has nothing to do with Xenos. Also, it's kind of a sore topic with the player base, and I'm pretty sure every thread about it has been closed, so I don't believe it's productive to revisit it here.

 

7 hours ago, birdzgoboom said:

Proposed Solution:

Improve the filter capabilities of the AP to account for the problem raised in the OP, so that no one breed can flood the AP at a time.

The AP would work as follows:

1. It would have 30 active visible spots that users can take eggs from.
2. It would have a filter that will show one line of Non-Holiday eggs during Holiday breeding periods to help players still collect normal dragon breeds during this period
3. This same filter would be applied to ensure that one line of the AP is guaranteed to not be the eggs of a specific abandoner or specific breed

What this change would affect:

1.  Dragons from one specific abandoner cannot fill all 30 slots of the AP
2.  One specific dragon breed cannot fill all 30 slots of the AP

This I would enthusiastically support. But I also think if you breed a Xeno 10 times, somewhere in those 10 times you should get a Stat. Producing so few of them that it causes players to overbreed like this does not make DC "a more broadly appealing, flexible, and accessible game".

 

7 hours ago, birdzgoboom said:

They are a breed that rewards breeding them with many different offspring possibilities thanks to their versatility. So, naturally, people will be breeding them more regularly- which is not inherently a bad thing, and it definitely should not be discouraged.

No one wants to discourage players from breeding whatever they like. But if the consequences to the AP are we have mostly Xenos compared with any of the other 267 DC breeds, something needs to be done. I would like to see a two-pronged approach:

 

1. I like your suggestion about improving the filter capabilities of the AP. 

 

2. Xenos should throw a Stat roughly one out of 10 times, and Stats should do likewise. Right now the chances of breeding a Stat are minuscule, far lower than any other dragon, and that leads to massive overbreeding.

 

1 hour ago, schenanigans said:

cherrypicking screenshots of the AP to go "see there's a problem!!!" Is just coming across as entitled and whiney

No one is saying there are Xenos in the AP 24/7. We are saying that oftentimes the AP is flooded with Xenos, and it is.  As for the screenshot, I wasn't cherrypicking: that was how it appeared when I looked at it. Now it looks like this: (15 Xenos, still half of the AP even though DC has 267 non-holiday breeds.)
 

[Fuzzbucket]

What do you mean - do you mean all Xeno eggs look the same in the AP, or that - say - Gaias can only breed Gaias ?

 

If the former - that would be a nightmare for anyone breeding a lineage - would you have to wait till they hatch to see what you get ? It wouldn't help with the AP which would then just be a wall of identical eggs.Why wouldn't people who are breeding to dump just carry on doing so ? I was going to mock up a screenie - but there are only 2 Xenos in the AP right now !

 

As for the other - no, just no.

2 minutes ago, missy_ said:

Xenos should throw Stats more often, and Stats should throw Stats more often, to resemble something that gives players a sporting chance of getting one.

 

It isn't all about Stats. AS I said already - I picked up several xenos in the AP yesterday - almost all were every pretty checkers with other breeds, and would never have produced a stat. They were bred as lineages.

[Sakazuki]

i not agree with those idea and i also don't have any problem with the xeno ap block (i also like to collect the xenos and take a look at the lineages) some people also collect them and gift them after hatching away. i don't think we need a change only for a handful of people. if someone don't want to see as much as the xenos in the ap they can go and hunting in the cave or just breed stuff. i would miss the staterae xeno eggs and also the chance to hunt any cb ones (only have 2 females and want to collect more cb ones). but if the rate to get an staterae xeno is higher we not have as much xeno eggs as we now have or just change the chance to get staterae xenos out of the common xenos to 0. if we don't get staterae xenos out of the commons, the people won't breed as much as now to get staterae xenos for trading 🤔

 

the staterae xenos are so pretty and they turn to any alts like the blacks or vines are not a good idea, but that's just my opinion 🤷‍♀️

 

also sorry for my english, it isn't my native language

[Starscream]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

What do you mean - do you mean all Xeno eggs look the same in the AP, or that - say - Gaias can only breed Gaias ?

 

If the former - that would be a nightmare for anyone breeding a lineage - would you have to wait till they hatch to see what you get ? It wouldn't help with the AP which would then just be a wall of identical eggs.Why wouldn't people who are breeding to dump just carry on doing so ? I was going to mock up a screenie - but there are only 2 Xenos in the AP right now !

 

As for the other - no, just no.

That is why I am suggesting that the strats are the ones that are the "surprise" variant. they drop their egg type: similar to how the old alt black and alt greens had their own egg type until they were hidden inside their parent breed.  I'm unfamilar with the breed names, but lets go with gaias. you have a gaia egg, and when it hatches, low and behold, a strat."  It's just an idea I'm offering. no need to get bent out of shape.

[Fuzzbucket]

OK - I just have spent 15 minutes monitoring the AP. Over those 15 mins, this is what I got: where's this Xeno wall anyway ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Starscream said:

That is why I am suggesting that the strats are the ones that are the "surprise" variant. they drop their egg type: similar to how the old alt black and alt greens had their own egg type until they were hidden inside their parent breed.  I'm unfamilar with the breed names, but lets go with gaias. you have a gaia egg, and when it hatches, low and behold, a strat."  It's just an idea I'm offering. no need to get bent out of shape.

 

How would that stop people breeding to the AP as they do now - I don't see what difference it would make; people will still breed as they do now, and those who might actually want to get that Gaia would be disappointed when it hatched as a Stats - yes there ARE people like that !

Edited April 16, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[missy_]

5 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

It isn't all about Stats. AS I said already - I picked up several xenos in the AP yesterday - almost all were every pretty checkers with other breeds, and would never have produced a stat. They were bred as lineages.

That's nice that you picked up pretty checkers yesterday. Today I went through the Xenos and saw only messy lineages. I never said that players were ONLY breeding trying to get Stats.  I never suggested people weren't working on lineages. Of course they are! I don't think it's a problem when you have some players working toward lineages. It's a problem when something is so rare that to get a possibility of that super rare egg, players have to breed their Stats 50-100 times to maybe get one.

 

Regardless of the breed, no breedable dragon should be so rare and difficult to obtain by breeding that it's almost impossible to breed.

[Starscream]

5 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

How would that stop people breeding to the AP as they do now - I don't see what difference it would make; people will still breed as they do now, and those who might actually want to get that Gaia would be disappointed when it hatched as a Stats - yes there ARE people like that !

 

Well, my logic being, that people who want stats, are not as likely to dump loads of eggs into the AP. As I said in my first post when I fielded the idea, that they may wait to hatch them on the chance they get an alt(stat) then dump the non stat worms. If a person doesn't want that stat and the gaia they had hoped for. I am sure there will be oodles of folk wanting to trade it for a gaia (ir would not be a difficult trade I'm sure), or they could just dump it into the AP and try again.  The only solution I have is to just make the stat a chance alt of all Xeno eggs.

[Shadowdrake]

On a tangent, the other part of why it's only xenos that wall and not other breeds is bc other breeds do get affected by the normal anti-wall measure, but xenos are still being picked up, looked at, and dropped despite their relative common-ness, so they bypass the 12-per-abandoner feature. If it was so simple as "people keep massbreeding and no one wants them", they would just take up 12 to 24 spaces in the AP.

 

Also, 10 minutes is literally nothing in a game day. The majority of the AP will have barely budged at all, as seen by the multippe brimstones, duotones, etc. Hardly conductive to statistics testing.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Shadowdrake

[missy_]

9 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

OK - I just have spent 15 minutes monitoring the AP. Over those 15 mins, this is what I got: where's this Xeno wall anyway ? 

So now you're trying to prove that there's never Xeno walls in the AP?  🤭 That's simply false. Also: NO ONE is saying there is Xeno walls in the AP 24/7. No one has ever said this, and no one is saying that today or now. 

[Starscream]

I don't really care either way. I just bring out the vamps during celestial/xeno walls. I have seen mass walls of Xeno's. they do seem to come in waves, but not constant like some folk seem to interpret the situation. I have seen more Xeno walls than I have say, seen mints, or nocturns (I have seen breed walls of all breeds except vamps ) Kinda had a fantasy of trying to cause a vamp wall, but due to limitations, I can't do that.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

1 minute ago, Shadowdrake said:

On a tangent, the other part of why it's only xenos that wall and not other breeds is bc other breeds do get affected by the normal anti-wall measure, but xenos are still being picked up, looked at, and dropped despite their relative common-ness, so they bypass the 12-per-abandoner feature. If it was so simple as "people keep massbreeding and no one wants them", they would just take up 12 to 24 spaces in the AP.

I feel deeply that this is the root of the issue. Yes, the ap was altered to where one player only can take up 12 slots at a time, but it's a short sighted solution. People pick the eggs up and if they don't like the look of a lineage, they drop it. So that 12 limit slot can quickly become 25 slots taken because 13 other people picked up an egg and abandoned them again. 

[missy_]

@MoonlitEevee I saw nothing wrong with your original title of your thread.  You started it about Xenos, and frankly, you aren't the only person who has noticed the Xeno walls. I don't think by pointing that out that you are saying that that is the only breed that can produce a wall. But for several reasons pointed out in this thread, the way they are treated in the AP is the reason they are creating walls.

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

It's not a wall, but in every row is one or two Xeno eggs, and Xenos only account for 13 breeds out of 300-something breeds. 

[Fuzzbucket]

28 minutes ago, Starscream said:

 

Well, my logic being, that people who want stats, are not as likely to dump loads of eggs into the AP. As I said in my first post when I fielded the idea, that they may wait to hatch them on the chance they get an alt(stat) then dump the non stat worms. If a person doesn't want that stat and the gaia they had hoped for. I am sure there will be oodles of folk wanting to trade it for a gaia (ir would not be a difficult trade I'm sure), or they could just dump it into the AP and try again.  The only solution I have is to just make the stat a chance alt of all Xeno eggs.

 

But as I said - very few of the ones I was checking out the other day was hoping to be stats - they are almost all really pretty checkers. And a LARGE number of them were bred by the same player.

 

27 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

On a tangent, the other part of why it's only xenos that wall and not other breeds is bc other breeds do get affected by the normal anti-wall measure, but xenos are still being picked up, looked at, and dropped despite their relative common-ness, so they bypass the 12-per-abandoner feature. If it was so simple as "people keep massbreeding and no one wants them", they would just take up 12 to 24 spaces in the AP.

 

Also, 10 minutes is literally nothing in a game day. The majority of the AP will have barely budged at all, as seen by the multippe brimstones, duotones, etc. Hardly conductive to statistics testing.

I realise it wasn't very long - but it 's over half an hour later now - and still the same kind of tmix.

 

27 minutes ago, missy_ said:

So now you're trying to prove that there's never Xeno walls in the AP?  🤭 That's simply false. Also: NO ONE is saying there is Xeno walls in the AP 24/7. No one has ever said this, and no one is saying that today or now. 

 

Not suggesting that, but there actually are suggestions in this thread that it's been almost wall to wall Xenos since January, and that isn't' the case at all.

 

17 hours ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

Xenos have been taking up the AP consistently every day (except for holidays) for well over a year.

 

 

15 hours ago, MoonlitEevee said:

I have said this before and will say this again: I mentioned at one point in January that Xenos were mainly in the ap. They were everywhere in the ap about a month before that. Day after day going into the ap was just full of Xeno eggs. When a wall of a different breed comes and goes (say pyroars) guess which eggs are front and center. Xenos. It's been straight constant xenos with minor breaks for months

 

15 hours ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

It is not irrelevant that seeing the AP without Xeno eggs in it has become a rare event. They're not the "hot button breed of the moment," because it's been day after day, month after month. 

[missy_]

31 minutes ago, Starscream said:

That is why I am suggesting that the strats are the ones that are the "surprise" variant. they drop their egg type: similar to how the old alt black and alt greens had their own egg type until they were hidden inside their parent breed.  I'm unfamilar with the breed names, but lets go with gaias. you have a gaia egg, and when it hatches, low and behold, a strat." 

I love this idea. It would encourage players who are breeding for Stats to keep them on their scroll instead of tossing them to the AP. So it would be like the alt Vines and the all Blacks: people would not know they had a Stat until they hatched the egg.
 

To clarify, Xeno eggs would look like a random Xeno breed until they hatched, and then you would discover if you had a Stat.

 

38 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

How would that stop people breeding to the AP as they do now -

It wouldn't stop "everyone" from breeding to the AP as they do now. But, just as with the alt Vines or the alt Blacks, there will be some people who will want to keep the eggs on their scroll and hatch them, or pull them out of the AP and hatch them.

 

39 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I don't see what difference it would make; people will still breed as they do now,

Not everyone would "breed as they do now" -- alt Vines and alt Blacks (and Undines) are hatched from the AP and hatched on player's scrolls. Having Stats be a "surprise breed" or treated like an alt would definitely change the way some people breed them.

 

41 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

, and those who might actually want to get that Gaia would be disappointed when it hatched as a Stats - yes there ARE people like that !

Just like they are "disappointed" if they are breeding an alt Black line or an alt Vine line and they don't get their alts? It's not that difficult to keep an egg on your scroll and see what hatches out of it. 
 

39 minutes ago, Starscream said:

Well, my logic being, that people who want stats, are not as likely to dump loads of eggs into the AP.

Exactly. I do think to help this concept be successful it would be great if they made it easier to breed Stats. 1 in 10 or 1 in 15 instead of 1 in 50 (or whatever tiny chance there is) would be nice.

 

I also really like birdzgoboom's idea of filtering the AP.

[birdzgoboom]

1 hour ago, missy_ said:

The topic of Sweetlings has nothing to do with Xenos. Also, it's kind of a sore topic with the player base, and I'm pretty sure every thread about it has been closed, so I don't believe it's productive to revisit it here.

 

You are completely missing the point of their inclusion in my post. They are entirely relevant as an example of a change made to an existing breed that altered their breeding behaviour in such a way that it was an objective downgrade to the previous gameplay and made the player experience actively worse.

 

The fact that Sweetlings are a "sore topic with the playerbase" is exactly why it is important to look to them as an example of what not to do so that further changes are not made in a similar way.

 

To be able to make actionable changes that are positive and meaningful for the game and its players, you have to be willing and able to look at the blunders for what they are and objectively pick them apart so that you don't make the same mistake again.

 

Since they have been brought up in other comments: I would also argue that the changes to Dark Greens and Alt Blacks fall in the same category of being not-ideal.

Objectively, the way that DG/AB Dragons work now is worse than the way they used to work: because players now have to wait even longer to be able to tell if they even have an alt. That's bad user experience. The ideal solution would have been to keep it so that users could see the alt at the egg-stage, as they originally worked, whilst digging further to find the actual base issue that made DG/AB Dragons worse off than say, Red Dorsals. If nothing else could be sourced upon further inspection, then and only then would I consider the change to DG/AB Dragons to be a positive one.

 

I would raise that the original DG and AB breeding behaviour, as well as Staterae breeding, being problematic are symptoms of a larger underlying issue: the current application of Ratios.

Also, as said before, the overabundance of certain eggs in the AP are symptoms of an underlying issue; AP filtering.

 

Quote

And if that's the case, one breed out of 267 breeds should not be allowed to take over the AP.  Regardless of the breed, no breedable dragon should be so rare and difficult to obtain by breeding that it's almost impossible to breed. Xenos should throw Stats more often, and Stats should throw Stats more often, to resemble something that gives players a sporting chance of getting one.

 

I do not disagree with this statement and never have. Staterae Dragons should be a bit more accessible to obtain via breeding, but that was not what the OP was suggesting.

 

What I disagreed with is the suggested method of fixing this issue originally suggested in the OP: the removal of Xenos' capability to breed Staterae, which directly makes them even more inaccessible.

Staterae eggs should be a rare offspring from Xenowyrms given that they are a rare dragon. Gold Dragons or Silver Dragons are similarly going to rarely throw offspring of their own type because they are rare dragons. Staterae eggs should be breedable from Xenowyrms because that was a massive part of my original intention with the breed.

 

Let me throw my past-self under the microscope here and criticise my original intention for the Staterae in a similar way to the other examples:

Spoiler

Original Intended Behaviour:

Staterae Dragons are a rare origin species of the Xenowyrms. Originally when making the concept, the way to obtain them was as follows:

1. A Staterae Dragon egg can only be obtained when an egg is bred that contains at least one of every single Xenowyrm subspecies type in its lineage, and one of the egg's parents is a Xenowyrm or Staterae

I don't think I need to go too deep into why this is a problem. It requires a player to have at least 12 other dragons of different subspecies of a breed that is regularly regarded as a user-driven-rare. Additionally, it makes it impossible to get CB's, which makes them hard to use in lineages and have little to no breeding value for those lineages. It also artificially drives up the rarity of Xenowyrms more because people will be hunting and charging more for Xenowyrms to make these extensive lineages just to get a Staterae. Alongside all that, it only allows players to obtain Staterae via three methods of playing the game: AP, Trading, and Breeding, whilst making Cave and Market impossible due to there being no CB's. Whilst it's a cool concept on its surface for the breed's lore, for gameplay, it's horribly exclusive and inaccessible. 

 

 

Current Behaviour:

Staterae Dragons are a rare origin species of the Xenowyrms. The way to obtain them is as follows:

1. In the Cave, via any of the Biomes
2. Purchasable in the Market
3. Breeding via Staterae (rare)
4. Breeding via Xenowyrms (rare)

This is a significantly improved way to obtain Staterae and allows players to obtain them by all five methods of playing the game: Cave, AP, Market, Trading, and Breeding. They are still rare, as rare dragons already exist as a concept in Dragon Cave, and Staterae are intended to be rare. However, there are significantly fewer barriers to entry to obtain one, and there are actually more options to obtain a Staterae than any other rare dragon that currently exists on the site.

 

 

 

I will circle back to your Issue Statement here:

 

Quote

Regardless of the breed, no breedable dragon should be so rare and difficult to obtain by breeding that it's almost impossible to breed.

This is your primary issue as stated in your post, which is an agreeable statement because this issue does fly directly in the face of Dragon Cave being a more casual and accessible game.

 

So we'll look at the Staterae's full accessibility then:

Staterae Dragons are not only difficult to obtain via breeding. Staterae are also exceedingly difficult to obtain via the Cave or Market. They are incredibly elusive in the Cave and exceedingly expensive in the Market.

 

So, let's look at these three avenues of accessibility and see if there's an underlying connection.

 

Cave, Market, and Breeding:

The Cave and Market are separate from Breeding, considering Cave/Market dragons are not lineaged dragons.

Therefore, what underlying aspect of the game exists that might affect all three Cave, Market, and Breeding?

Ratios.

 

Quote

This I would enthusiastically support. But I also think if you breed a Xeno 10 times, somewhere in those 10 times you should get a Stat. Producing so few of them that it causes players to overbreed like this does not make DC "a more broadly appealing, flexible, and accessible game".

 

No one wants to discourage players from breeding whatever they like. But if the consequences to the AP are we have mostly Xenos compared with any of the other 267 DC breeds, something needs to be done. I would like to see a two-pronged approach:

1. I like your suggestion about improving the filter capabilities of the AP. 

2. Xenos should throw a Stat roughly one out of 10 times, and Stats should do likewise. Right now the chances of breeding a Stat are minuscule, far lower than any other dragon, and that leads to massive overbreeding.

 

The points raised here that are not covered by fixing the underlying AP Issue that I previously dissected are all issues that stem from Ratios.

Therefore, we should be looking into ratios and how they work as they appear to be a massive underlying gameplay problem.

 

If Staterae/Xenowyrm Dragons specifically have an issue with them after addressing ratios and the AP on a base level, then and only then should we be looking into Staterae/Xenowyrm Dragons as their own subject. And at that point I would be more than happy to do so because I want the user experience of the game to be a positive one. But attacking very specific dragons before even looking at the bigger picture of ratios and fixing that known problem is not going to actually fix anything in a meaningful way.

 

----

 

Ratios are of course their own topic though and that should be in a thread of its own.

Edited April 16, 2023 by birdzgoboom
word

[missy_]

55 minutes ago, birdzgoboom said:

If Staterae/Xenowyrm Dragons specifically have an issue with them after addressing ratios and the AP on a base level, then and only then should we be looking into Staterae/Xenowyrm Dragons as their own subject.

Then the problem with Stats will never be fixed, because TJ is never going to fix the ratios. (I hope I am wrong!)

Maybe it's time we add to this thread: 

There were a lot of good ideas. Sadly, none ever implemented.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, birdzgoboom said:

The points raised here that are not covered by fixing the underlying AP Issue that I previously dissected are all issues that stem from Ratios.

Therefore, we should be looking into ratios and how they work as they appear to be a massive underlying gameplay problem.

 

If Staterae/Xenowyrm Dragons specifically have an issue with them after addressing ratios and the AP on a base level, then and only then should we be looking into Staterae/Xenowyrm Dragons as their own subject. And at that point I would be more than happy to do so because I want the user experience of the game to be a positive one. But attacking very specific dragons before even looking at the bigger picture of ratios and fixing that known problem is not going to actually fix anything in a meaningful way.

 

Exactly this. Thanks, @birdzgoboom - and also for not making the original breeding mechanism that hard 

[missy_]

The "wall" is back: 25 out of 30 slots are Xenos. It would be nice to know if TJ is actually planning to do anything about the ratios or not. 

[Fuzzbucket]

And now it isn't any more. It's half and half.

 

[Guillotine]

I find it utterly wild to claim that people still being bitter about Sweetling breeding changes isn't relevant when the initial change being suggested was a similar level of shooting years-long lineage plans in the knees. The OP is changed now, but it was extremely relevant when they were brought up initially.

 

e: This thread is newer and touches on many of the same issues re: ratios just as applied to how it impacts the cave itself

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Guillotine

[missy_]

4 hours ago, birdzgoboom said:

You are completely missing the point of their inclusion in my post. They are entirely relevant as an example of a change made to an existing breed that altered their breeding behaviour in such a way that it was an objective downgrade to the previous gameplay and made the player experience actively worse.

 

36 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

I find it utterly wild to claim that people still being bitter about Sweetling breeding changes isn't relevant when the initial change being suggested was a similar level of shooting years-long lineage plans in the knees. The OP is changed now, but it was extremely relevant when they were brought up initially.

I can see that what I said here was completely misunderstood. I never said the Sweetlings issue didn't matter. It did. But the players proposed a good solution and it was completely ignored by DC. There is no reason to think that DC learned anything from that decision, or that DC will make better decisions in the future because of it. I am a cynic and I don't believe they will. This is why I stated it wasn't relevant. Because DC learned nothing.

 

While the players learned something from that debacle, we have not been given any indication DC learned anything. It doesn't matter if the players know full well what a mistake that was if DC does not. And if DC does not, it means they can make the same kind of mistake again. Whatever happens with Xenos, DC is not going to base it on Sweetlings, even though we'd like them to take previous debacles into account.

 

As birdzgoboom stated, "The solution that was applied did not solve the core issue with the Sweetlings, and the playerbase was understandably unhappy. This then would make the changes applied to Sweetlings an objective downgrade to the original gameplay." And it did. 

 

But that still leaves us fumbling around in the dark when it comes to Xenos and trying to predict what, if anything, DC will do to fix the ratios problem. The old adage comes to mind "those that failed to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

 

Like I also said, threads that devolve into talking about Sweetlings usually always end up CLOSED. It is NOT a good idea for us to travel down that path.