The AP Problem and How to Fix it

[Moonlight_Eevee]

First and foremost, I respect the time, art, and lore that went into all xenos. I understand that I can't tell people how to play the game or to stop breeding them. 

 

Unfortunately, some of us players are quite unhappy with how the ap keeps getting clogged up with Xenos. It's nice to have walls of a breed every now and then to lower ap times. However, I miss the ap when no one breed overtook another. Maybe, somehow I always miss it but I was pleasantly surprised to see one~three xenos in the ap at a time this morning (of course, they went back to clogging the ap with a few eggs scattered in there). I miss going in there to find hidden gems and random cbs without a constant xeno wall going on

 

 

I want this to be a peaceful suggestion thread as I've seen about 2 suggestions: 

 

Have Stats only breed other Stats (while still producing Xenos as true to the lore) Have Xeno only produce other xenos.

 

The original problem is more complex than just Xenos clogging the ap. How the AP currently works:

 

• 30 eggs displayed at a time
• 1 row of nonholiday eggs during Halloween/Christmas/Valentine's
• A massbreed (ex. Equinox) from a single player isn't supposed to overtake the ap

 

The current problem the ap is facing right now:

 

• People massbreed
• People pick eggs up, then tossing the egg back into the ap of they don't like the lineage

 

End result:

 

•  The ap is still being walled with a single breed (blacktips, Celestials, xenos, etc.) for hours/days on end even though there is approximately 267 non-holiday dragons

 

Solutions to this:

 

• Add a filter option so that way if there's a wall, people can toggle the breed that's currently walling the ap 
• Add a secondary Abandoned Page that is for massbreeding (after about 20 eggs or so, it acknowledges a massbreeding and it redirects the eggs there?) 
• Rehaul the abandoned page? 

Edited April 16, 2023 by MoonlitEevee

[DragonLady86]

It doesn't matter what breed is in the ap, someone will complain about it. I like finding xenos myself. And the problem is ratios dont match player demand. And there's been people asking for those to change for over a decade.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

While I wouldn't normally complain about walling, the fact of the matter is that this has been going on for weeks, months even now. I think I mentioned in the 'Who Keeps Massbreeding' in February I believe? Someone on Discord commented that Xenos have become the new ap- in way it's true. I regularly check the ap and it's near constant xenos all the time

 

Correction: it was January when I first mentioned the Xeno wall

Edited April 15, 2023 by MoonlitEevee

[missy_]

Support. There is an abundance of Xenos, and IMO there wouldn't be a shortage, even if going forward there were fewer bred than now. I'd really like to see Stats throw only Stats, also.

[Mnkn10]

No support for Stats only producing Stats. I like the lineage possibilities it offers, and it feels a bit unfair to change the mechanics this long after release. Maybe just increase the odds of Stat eggs from Stats while still allowing them to produce other Xenos?

 

That being said, something does need to be done. I like Xenos, and I'm still tired of them walling the AP constantly.

[purplehaze]

I think the heart of the problem is that breeding any two Xenos together has a chance (admittedly very rare) of producing a Stat -- not that breeding Stats can (and usually does) produce other Xenos. Most of the Xenos I see in the AP do not have Stat parents. As long as Stats are so vanishingly rare and so expensive in the market, you are going to have people wildly breeding Xenos to try for a Stat no matter how rare it is to actually get one from those breedings. I don't think having Stats only breed Stats is going to solve that.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think @purplehaze is right. I've bred loads of Xenos to try and get one myself - and I will probably do it again ! And NO support for stats only producing states - even taking into account the rarity issue, that would make them different from any other Xeno - and why should they be.

[Stormphoenix42]

I think Moon's suggestion was for Stats to be the only breed producing Stats, not for Stats to only be able to breed true. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Yes, sorry I wasn't actually clear with that, I was in a rush this morning:

 

Stats- only produce stats (but can still produce the subspecies)

 

Xenowyrms: Can still produce other xenos but no more stats 

[Mnkn10]

Ah, okay. That definitely sounds like it'd help with the eternal Xeno wall.

[Fuzzbucket]

Still can't support that. Not least because of the lineages started on the basis that they can. (And also out of respect for those who created them - all by birdzgoboom, I believe.)

 

He has plans: https://dragcave.net/lineage/ZWnV7 - just as soon as I can get him a mate !

 

And the AP right now is xeno free, actually.

 

ETA there are a few now - and I have just collected several LOVELY Xeno checkers !

Edited April 15, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[Moonlight_Eevee]

I think the root of the problem for the people who are disliking the Xeno wall has become: xenos are overbred to get that one in x Dragon that is rarer than a gold (because most people can't catch/afford one). There's 12 subspecies and the Staterae. All the hundreds upon thousands of failed Staterae usually end up in the ap, hence clogging it. It's boring to pluck up the neverending xenos that get tossed because it's not a stat (and this has been going on for months)

[Fuzzbucket]

As I said - I have just picked up several LOVELY checkers - and there are a few more. So it isn't just for stats. (I assumed it was too, but, no.)

Edited April 15, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[Shadowdrake]

Personally I'm concerned about what all this walling says about DC's ratio system in general. If people are constantly massbreeding xenos but we see no effective drop in rarity, what does it mean for people actively trying to make other commons less common for breeding projects? Is there any point to trying to budge ratios as players, or should we just take ratios as a function of time of newest commons pushing out prior ones?

[Fuzzbucket]

Regular Xenos aren't rare at all - except for stats they are a mere 3-400 in the market,.

[Mnkn10]

Kind of weird idea, but what if we did with Xenos what we do with holiday eggs each holiday? That is, ensure that at least one row of non-Xenos is always visible at the bottom of the AP. It'd be a weird thing to do to a normal, non-holiday breed, but it'd somewhat solve the issue.

[haligtree]

I don't disagree with your suggestion - I'm also tired of xeno walls in the AP - but I don't know that it would work. Personally, I'm fine with stats being the only xenos able to breed stats, but for the average player, getting that first stat to breed with is really, really hard. I know the market exists, but stat prices are always pretty high. Right now they're at 4700, so almost a year of regular playing. I got my first CB stat long before I had enough shards to buy a market one.

 

I think an ideal solution for me would be stats only being able to breed stats + stats being slightly less rare, like as rare as golds. They're still rare, so they're still special, but they're a bit more accessible to the average player.

[Fuzzbucket]

But what about all those people with existing lineages based on other xenos being able to produce them, ?

[AztecCroc]

Alternate suggestion: Cap the max price from market eggs at 2000 so it doesn't take literally an entire year's worth of shards to buy one.

[haligtree]

I don't know, that's the one sticking point for me. Maybe there could be a grace period, like we get a heads up that it's being implemented in six months (or longer?) and the ratios are temporarily adjusted so that people can actually finish their lineages?

 

I'd also be fine with a market cap, tbh.

[ravensunset]

Unfortunately, while I personally think they're the best currently available solution, market caps have been shot down before, so I don't think they have any shot of being implemented/it's not helpful to discuss when looking for a fix that might reach the game.

 

I don't support changing what xenos can potentially breed, it doesn't make sense to me, and would end with many lines that are uncontinuable.

 

I do think there is an issue here, even if the AP does get to see other breeds/some xenos there have nice lineages/etc. There's constantly a disproportionate amount of xenos in there. The idea that I like the most so far is actually having a section of the AP that's guaranteed to not show xenos, though idk how likely that is either. I also absolutely support changing the ratios for stats slightly, I think it's more than obvious by now that their rarity just isn't working out in favor of the game (there's been SO many threads discussing solutions to the multitude of problems caused by the way rarity works right now)

[schenanigans]

No support. 

Just because one person, or a group of people, are annoyed by something happening doesn't mean everyone feels the same, for one. I'm enjoying the xeno increase. I adore them, and I remember when getting a Xeno out of another common was sometimes an annoying task. 

 

The problem here is the way ratios function, as Shadow pointed out. Xenos should not be changed just because they happen to be the current problem; we can't instantly demand any "problem" breed be handled any particular way, because then there will be some other breed or issue that gets players' ire. 

 

For some people, the only chance that they have at getting a staterae is breeding xenos until they get one. Maybe even eventually buying one in the market. But there are also a lot of players that just don't care about lineage and merely want a breed. It's not fair to take that from them just because you have to sift the AP to avoid something you don't like. 

 

Adjusting xeno ratios comes with other repercussions that this suggestion just doesn't take into account. 12 individual xeno breeds (NOT counting staterae) becoming rarer, especially in the biomes, is just not a feasible alternative in my opinion. 

[Munin]

No support. The whole ratio system is probematic in my opinion, "fixing" it for specific breeds seems a very random thing to do. A few months back it was celestials everyone complained about, this time round it is xenos, in a few months it will be some other breed.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Munin

[birdzgoboom]

I also am not in support of this suggestion.

 

My reasonings:

1) Regarding the Xenos specifically: as mentioned previously in this thread, for some, Xeno/Xeno pairing is the only option for some players currently to get a Staterae, aside from cave-hunting or the market (which both require a lot of time or a lot of resources, respectively). Removing this breeding option is unfair to those players, as I wanted the Staterae to be a Rare dragon that was possible to obtain via alternative means than just grinding the game. Not everyone has that time, nor interest.

Additionally, obtaining the Staterae Dragon as it currently works is far fairer than the original concept I had for the dragon. Since these dragons are all interconnected, removing the rare Staterae offspring opportunity from Xeno pairs would essentially entirely ruin the intention I had for the Xenowyrm/Staterae species relationship.

2) The issue with a clogged AP/AP wall is not an issue that is exclusive to only the Xenowyrms. There have been consistent complaints about AP walls, due to mass-breedings, for many years. A number of breeds have been named alongside those complaints; Blacktips, for example, are another breed I have seen mentioned in the past.

Therefore, the only way to address your concern is to zoom out and look at the bigger picture to find the actual root issue: AP walls that clog the AP and make the AP-hunting experience less than ideal.

 

Changing Xenowyrm breeding behaviour will not fix this problem, as experience has shown that another breed(s) will simply take their place once someone decides to do a mass-breeding of the dragons on their scroll, and the AP will be a wall of that breed instead. So, to actually address your (and many other players') gameplay experience, it is the AP behaviour itself that needs to be looked at, re-evaluated, and potentially adjusted.

 

The subject of re-doing the ratio system is one that is constantly brought up and has been discussed at length, so I will not waste any further time going into that as enough others have already done it. However, one thought that I have had on this particular point of contention would be: making it so that one breed may only take up a certain number of slots of the visible AP at one time.  

 

What that amount is, I don't know, but let's use 50% as an example since that's an easy number.  There are 30 eggs that show on the AP to be clicked on, so that would mean that, at any given time, one breed could only take up 15 of the visible AP slots. Therefore, you would no longer have the issue of having all 30 slots (or most of them) taken up by Xenos, or Blacktips, or whatever common breed is being massbred on that particular day. That would also lead to some of those massbred eggs sitting longer in the AP over time, which would make them lower-time eggs (which are often more enticing to pick up because they're easier to hatch), but it would also be done in a way that it isn't just 30 slots of the same thing sitting there because no one wants to pick them up.

 

Of course, that's just one idea. However, I would highly suggest that those with issues regarding the AP take a moment to consider the wider issue. That's the only way that it can be changed that fixes the gameplay meaningfully.

Edited April 15, 2023 by birdzgoboom

[Shadowdrake]

46 minutes ago, birdzgoboom said:

making it so that one breed may only take up a certain number of slots of the visible AP at one time.  

I hate to say it, but this may not work on xenos in particular due to them being considered separate breeds by the game, unless TJ does some finagling to how this mechanic would work. Otherwise I wouldn't mind it (but as the AP already had one anti-wall measure added I dunno how willing he'd be to add another on top).