Suggestions regarding DR

[Sextonator]

If someone called dibs then disappeared/stopped working on it, wouldn't that mean that someone else could work on it, even though they would have to start from scratch? Unless, of course, the old artist could be contacted and gave their permission for their work to be used.

[Infinis]

24 minutes ago, Sextonator said:

If someone called dibs then disappeared/stopped working on it, wouldn't that mean that someone else could work on it, even though they would have to start from scratch? Unless, of course, the old artist could be contacted and gave their permission for their work to be used.

the old artist could be contacted and permission granted to use their work, but they still have to stay around to sign the contract if it's ever accepted, even if they're just checking in now and then. so if they go AWOL and can't be reached, it pretty much has to be started over.

[Fiona]

3 hours ago, olympe said:

So, going from event spriter to in-cave artist is a rather logical step, even if it's not a requirement.

 

Frankly, I think one of the reasons you see most artists getting art into events before they see a release is because when the in-cavers see a DR artist with skills we tend to glomp all over them asking if they'd like to help with event art.

[TCA]

Can confirm, if I see a DR spriter with potential, I'm likely to invite them for events to help potentially move them towards getting in-cave.

[Alrexwolf]

I just mean that it seems like no Artist who is "unknown" to TJ completely has ever gotten a release. Heck, there are a lot of people known TO TJ who haven't gotten in cave yet.

 

The point there being me coming to dc, as a hypothetical new player but experienced spriter, what's the point? I have to get noticed by this group of people first. It feels like my art won't be acknowledged even if it's fantastic - from the outside, it looks like all that matters is gaining the favor of the already in cave artists or TJ himself. What would be the point of me investing my art skills and time for a project that could take years and be rejected without my knowledge for reasons I'll never know? 

 

The point is, the "exclusivity" DC exudes is a real turn off for new artists, even if they were ready and willing to sprite cool dragons and help with concepts.

 

EDIT: I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing. Or that it's even hard - As the artists above have said. But a new artist looking to help out likely wouldn't be privy to that, you know?

Edited May 3, 2018 by Alrexwolf

[JOTB]

I don’t know that being new vs someone who has been around makes that much of a difference.  There have been a handful of very talented people who were released pretty quickly.  A lot of others take longer because they are still improving or their style isn’t quite right for the site initially.  It’s also a numbers game, where the more cave-quality concepts you have the more likely you are to be released, and it takes time to rack up concepts.  There have been a lot of people complaining about in-cave spriter releases and the fact of the matter is there aren’t that many people in DR producing consistently quality artwork.  (And the ones that are will probably be released eventually [or at least I hope so], perpetuating the cycle).  

 

If if you can make all your own art, it is way better and easier to come up with your own concept that you like, dictate all the features, and not have to worry about meeting deadlines for other people.  I’m not going to lie, DR has been a consistently negative place for me to work and it does discourage me from doing art there (not that it matters now when I have little time for art). I don’t really know what can be done to fix this, but I will echo Infinis in that the best thing you can do is learn to draw and sprite yourself.  You will make  at first (good lord did I make  at first) but that’s kind of the only way to get good at anything.  The number of artists is always going to be the limiting factor at completing concepts.

[TJ09]

• The rate at which new threads are entering CR has not really decreased since adding a final critique. It may have been previously masked by there being over 200 threads, but I distinctly remember looking at the section a while back and noting that the recency of the threads dropped off sharply (in that there were year-old threads on the first page of the section).
• The average quality of sprites entering CR has gone way up since final critique was added. This is overall good.
• I have never thought about, looked at, or considered whether or not someone has done art for events in the past when considering dragons for release. I would, however, be unsurprised to find a correlation between "people who made pixel art for X" and "people who made pixel art for Y." Participating in events is mildly exclusive, but only insofar as you basically just need to ask to participate (and, of course, make something that meets the quality bar/follows the art requirements for that event).
• The decrease in the release of CR dragons can be attributed to a few factors. One, the procedural differences are indeed more convenient (being able to know for sure that a sprite has never been shown publicly is obviously easier to deal with than needing plan months in advance). To this end, I support making CR hidden, as long as the logistics of it are workable. Two, it turns out that the statistics tell us something similar to my last bullet point: People who have successfully made dragons for the site in the past are more likely to be able to successfully make dragons. This is not something that directly impacts my decisions, just a correlation that should be unsurprising.
• I'm all for being more aggressive at clearing out older threads in DR, and setting more consistent guidelines around that (e.g. threads with no non-bumping activity are removed after 60 days, with a limit on the maximum allowed number of threads at any given time).

[Whirlaway]

If hiding CR could help give public Dragon Requests an easier chance of getting in-cave I am all for hiding the public CR.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Whirlaway

[Infinis]

If by logistics you mean stuff like how do artists/ops update stuff, pm a help mod? We can make sure it gets done. Or any mod, really, I think could help with it.

[TJ09]

26 minutes ago, Infinis said:

If by logistics you mean stuff like how do artists/ops update stuff, pm a help mod? We can make sure it gets done. Or any mod, really, I think could help with it.

Things like updating sprites (easy enough), giving critique (if threads popping back into DR with a post from me is insufficient). It's all workable, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be a pain point. I'm fine with "try it and iterate from there," though.

 

In an ideal world, the various interested parties can still access their threads in CR but no one else. I don't think that's an option with the forum software.

[SkyWolf25]

　*If* creating member groups other than staff, admin, and regular members is possible, maybe there could be a member group for people whose dragons are in CR? If mods can move the OP&involved artists into those groups when a concept gets moved into CR, future critique and edits can all be made privately without the concepts moving back and forth between DR and CR(which would reset the privacy time of two months as well as being more work for the mods). Those in the group would be able to see other completed threads, but I think it's better than nothing. Though, if TJ is the only one who can manage member groups, it might be more trouble than it's worth.. In that case, only in-cavers(for possible artistic critique), mods, and TJ should be able to view CR.

 

　Limits on the number of concepts in DR sounds like a good idea. But then, the question of how to treat old threads would have to be solved. Currently, inactive threads are locked but not deleted for a very long period of time, during which the OP/artists can always come back and ask for it to be reopened. If the max limit only applies to active threads, would the inactive threads be put on a queue until some concepts are moved to CR? Would they be revived straight away, creating a temporary surplus? Or would the concept of 'inactive threads' disappear altogether, meaning that threads without activity would be deleted right away without going through the process of being locked, so that the OP would need to restart the thread if they want to continue?

　I just got a thought while writing this: Move all threads un-bumped for a year or more to a different section('Inactive Requests', maybe?) and lock them. OP or artist can salvage concept info and artwork from the old thread, and wait until DR is opened again to re-suggest the concept. Immediately moving the thread back to DR will not be possible. I've seen some people who had to start over from scratch because their thread was deleted, and this seems to be a solution to that.

[Jazeki]

I agree with finding some way to handle the currently inactive threads before moving to mass delete them. I do prefer the idea of moving them to an inactive section. I have one that is inactive because the spriter has moved on from DC and I'd hate to start over from scratch when I have a fairly fleshed out concept. 

[Moonlight_Eevee]

What about the active people who have more than the two limit concept threads? Would those be deleted as well or would they be able to come back and be worked on?

[SkyWolf25]

1 hour ago, Dalek Raptor said:

What about the active people who have more than the two limit concept threads? Would those be deleted as well or would they be able to come back and be worked on?

I think those should count towards the active concept limit and left in DR. If an unlocked thread from someone with more than 2 concepts goes inactive, that thread could be moved to IR(Inactive Requests) and one of the previously locked threads could be unlocked and bumped by a mod. The newly unlocked thread should have a shorter waiting period before the OP or related artist returns to the thread, I think. 6 months until it is moved to IR, maybe? Once it's reclaimed for the first time, the waiting period turns back into 1 year.

Ideas, ideas. 'w'

[DuskOfTheStars]

OP of a completd request here, I don't mind not having access to the thread. I support hiding CR to help with releasing dragobs from there.

[olympe]

Seriously, if hiding CR will help getting more stuff from DR released, I'm all for it. Maybe keep completed concepts open for last minute crits for a month or so before "removing" them from the forums (eg hiding them elsewhere) would be a good idea, though. Or a section "pending TJ's approval" or something. Because, ultimately, it will help all of us to see the reasons for something getting rejected. Also, before a concept actually gets moved to the final destination of finished concepts, it should have the artist's agreement for every artist involved attached. Just in case one of the artist goes inactive. That should save us a few overhauls...

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Sky’s suggesting of the Inactive Requests section sounds excellent, and I’m all in favour of invisible Completed Requests if it’ll help more get released. The decreased waiting time is a huge improvement in my book :))

[SkyWolf25]

2 hours ago, olympe said:

 Also, before a concept actually gets moved to the final destination of finished concepts, it should have the artist's agreement for every artist involved attached. Just in case one of the artist goes inactive. That should save us a few overhauls...

Tbh Iii'm not really fond of that idea. I know one of the artists in DR who's not comfortable with signing over usage rights for something that may or may not be released forever, and I'm not that eager either. :0 If I'm already part of the cave, then maybe, but most of the people in DR aren't in-cave. (Holidays are a special case due to time constraints)

If there is a pinned thread where users who made art in DR /choose/ to post their artist's agreement in case they go inactive, then that's okay with me. (Though of course some concepts would still need overhauls because the inactive artist didn't allow sprite edits)

[Sextonator]

3 hours ago, olympe said:

Maybe keep completed concepts open for last minute crits for a month or so before "removing" them from the forums (eg hiding them elsewhere) would be a good idea, though.

 

I disagree with this. I feel that keeping them open once they’re done leaves them open to being nitpicked, and we’ve already got one concept that’s being redo from the sketch up from that. Imo there’s nothing wrong with tucking them away once they have their done stamp.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

2 minutes ago, Sextonator said:

 

I disagree with this. I feel that keeping them open once they’re done leaves them open to being nitpicked, and we’ve already got one concept that’s being redo from the sketch up from that. Imo there’s nothing wrong with tucking them away once they have their done stamp.

This entirely. Please, no more crit hell because people can be extremely nitpicky

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, SkyWolf25 said:

Tbh Iii'm not really fond of that idea. I know one of the artists in DR who's not comfortable with signing over usage rights for something that may or may not be released forever, and I'm not that eager either. :0 If I'm already part of the cave, then maybe, but most of the people in DR aren't in-cave. (Holidays are a special case due to time constraints)

If there is a pinned thread where users who made art in DR /choose/ to post their artist's agreement in case they go inactive, then that's okay with me. (Though of course some concepts would still need overhauls because the inactive artist didn't allow sprite edits)

 

I very much agree with this. I don't think it's a good idea, or a very good professional practice in general, to require people to sign over rights to their art that may never be used by that business. And I really doubt that many people would agree to that either. When even completed concepts can sit around for 3+ years not being used it doesn't make sense to give DC the rights during that time. (And of course because my mind always goes to worst-case scenario, there are multiple situations that might see an artist disappearing for awhile, and it would be a rude surprise to come back after, say, a family tragedy and see your art that maybe you were no longer happy with being used on the site... And what about artists who may have a falling out with DC, would they be able to revoke the rights that they signed over?)

[olympe]

I just figured that, as long as the concept isn't released, the artist's agreement can be revoked if the artist so desires. But, in case they simply go inactive, there'll be something in place to keep the concept available for release. I find this especially important with collaborative works, because right now it's quite possible that the person who made 95% of the sprite plus the sketch gets screwed over because the person who did some redlines (and thus, got art credit) decided to drop off the face of the earth.

 

As a matter of fact, I think we might need to rework our art credit policy so that people who did only minor things (small redline) may get a special thanks, but not full credit with the ability to pull the sprite(s)?

Edited May 5, 2018 by olympe

[SkyWolf25]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

I just figured that, as long as the concept isn't released, the artist's agreement can be revoked if the artist so desires. But, in case they simply go inactive, there'll be something in place to keep the concept available for release. I find this especially important with collaborative works, because right now it's quite possible that the person who made 95% of the sprite plus the sketch gets screwed over because the person who did some redlines (and thus, got art credit) decided to drop off the face of the earth.

 

As a matter of fact, I think we might need to rework our art credit policy so that people who did only minor things (small redline) may get a special thanks, but not full credit with the ability to pull the sprite(s)?

　I don't think redlines get credit, unless the spriter directly traced over a major redline edit. Paraffins are a good example of multiple artists not being listed in the credits for their redlines. And if an artist's contribution was minor, the active spriter could always redo that part themselves and erase the credit.

　I understand where you're coming from, but signing over usage rights for something that's not confirmed to be released in the future(excepting Holidays) is not something I'll really agree to. ^^; My sprites are my metaphorical puppies, and putting them in a box in front of a house(while still a very nice house with cool 'dogs') not knowing if they'll be ever be picked up and adopted, is not a happy thing for me to do. If that house has adopted puppies from me before, that's another story, but as I've said before that's not the case with most people in DR. I'd rather redo half the sprites for the inactive person, personally. It needs to be a matter of choice.

my metaphors are running wild

[Moonlight_Eevee]

3 minutes ago, SkyWolf25 said:

　I don't think redlines get credit, unless the spriter directly traced over a major redline edit. Paraffins are a good example of multiple artists not being listed in the credits for their redlines. And if an artist's contribution was minor, the active spriter could always redo that part themselves and erase the credit.

I remember asking Fiona, can't remember about the rest, but she strictly wanted to leave her name out of the dragons Lindy has worked so hard on as she had done redlines. I think everyone else felt the same way and if I didn't ask, a thousand apologies to them (sorry if this went off topic)

[Infinis]

2 hours ago, SkyWolf25 said:

I don't think redlines get credit, unless the spriter directly traced over a major redline edit. Paraffins are a good example of multiple artists not being listed in the credits for their redlines. And if an artist's contribution was minor, the active spriter could always redo that part themselves and erase the credit.

 

i swear at one point we had a kind of credit guideline thing...redlines do get credit if they're major AND are used in the sprite. people can also refuse credit if they wish.

 

minor changes, edits, and redlines don't need credit; flatcolors don't, either. recolors and color tweaks don't need formal credit. small shading and linework edits don't need credits. realistically, if you did less than 10% of the work, you probably don't need formal credit. special thanks is absolutely fine.

 

i don't think that we need to have contracts for unreleased art. 

 

i also disagree that completed concepts should be left in the open for another month (or any length of time,really) before hiding.