Thoughts on Sickness

[ArgentiAertheri]

Semi-tangent -- iframes are a thing, and having coded some fairly recently, one I'd prefer never to touch again (think 90s website frames but updated), that said… TJ could probably use them to hide an egg's code without changing it… an iframe, a little JSON… I'm pretty sure it'd slow biome and AP loading down by a tiny smidge though (milliseconds)

 

I wouldn't want to touch it for a website of this size, but as a web designer… yeah, it's doable, probably. Maybe… hmm… if TJ documents and builds in error checks like my programmer partner does, you'd still be able to skim the codes if you knew what you where doing.

 

I still think simply reworking how sickness works is a much better option though. Seriously,  better.

 

(I'm gonna have nightmares about passing JSON data into iframes now!)

 

Edit: of  course this breaks the page!

Edited February 26, 2018 by ArgentiAertheri

[11th]

32 minutes ago, Earth Gurl said:

Also, there used to be a fansite that you had to log into to use (not sure if it's still around).

DDF requires an account to use, and DragHatch has a optional scroll security feature.

[TJ09]

Since there's some question about it, I'll just point out that I am very much paying attention to things around sickness, but don't have anything specific to announce or add at this time.

[XiziX]

Dunno if it is possible, but perhaps something that - in the event of being targeted - you are able to scramble your scroll link temporarily?

 

Actually, here's an idea. Just like how you need a special link to give to someone to trade a dragon, maybe you have a specialized link that you need to add into a hatchery that is specific to your scroll?? So we have one link that lets you see the scroll, the username. But maybe the hatcheries themselves would need a specialized personal link to allow them to access your eggs? One that is otherwise hidden unless you give it to someone else. 

 

That way it's not as simple as knowing your scroll name. And they - the view bombers - cant just randomly snag eggs and drop them in.

 

Edit: In the event that something does happen and it's found out, maybe you scramble it again?

 

Edit: Maybe it's a dumb idea, but it sounded alright in my head at 3 am.

Edited February 26, 2018 by XiziX

[ArgentiAertheri]

I think there's already a number assigned to your scroll actually, because I think that's how Snow Angel variants are assigned. Have that visible to you, but only if logged in -- under settings or something -- and require it like you said… I like it. 

 

Full disclosure though, it's 5am and I'm still awake cuz insomnia.

 

...oh… this would only solve actual official fan sites, not things like 4chan. Combine with black/white listing http referers?

[Kovia]

How exactly would the fansites know these scroll codes though? I'm not totally sure how they work, but I assume the fansites use the scroll name they're given to search DC for your account and then pull egg/hatchie codes from there. Such a hidden code doesn't really sound usuable.

 

And this wouldn't stop people adding a specific egg code. If the egg's code becomes visible somehow (2G Thuweds are an obvious example since anyone can go to the parents' progeny page) then anyone can stick it anywhere.

[XiziX]

As I said, it sounded like an okay idea in my head at 3 am.  I figured the codes would do the same thing that our name links do, let them add eggs/hatchies just like you copy and paste your own link. Except the name link would just be a general "view my scroll" not one that gives views...while this particular link would be just that...

 

I'm not saying it should/would work. But given we need something, throwing out ideas is kinda all we can do? Gotta start somewhere. While I never have issues with this, I would probably hate being on the receiving end. Though I hardly play enough for it to concern me. v.v

Edited February 26, 2018 by XiziX

[Andromen]

My scroll's getting attacked, and my Pyro got sick right after hatching. This morning I woke up some minutes ago - two eggs sick. My Whites can't do enough (in fact, I only have four).

 

So, either the chances of getting sickness have to be reduced, or Ward needs to work on hatchlings as well.

[ArgentiAertheri]

@Andromen You've already fogged everything right?

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, Andromen said:

My scroll's getting attacked, and my Pyro got sick right after hatching. This morning I woke up some minutes ago - two eggs sick. My Whites can't do enough (in fact, I only have four).

 

So, either the chances of getting sickness have to be reduced, or Ward needs to work on hatchlings as well.

 

OR you need to hide your scroll when you go to bed or are away from your desk for any length of time.. As most of us already do. There's no "have to" about this, to be honest and TJ has already said that he will not raise the time on Ward, and explained why.

 

ETA I also would NOT have a public group of your growing things. Makes it that much faster to find and bomb them individually...

Edited February 28, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[esse]

As a player, sickness is a thing I've come to love and hate. I believe that while it is lamentable, sickness is a game mechanic that gives a modicum of reason for people to come back and watch their eggs.

 

Admittedly, I am one among those who cannot check dragcave on a constant basis and may openly not check the site at all for extended amounts of time. In that same vein, I am one among those who came back to their scroll at one point in time and found my own eggs sick. That's bad. Sometimes, I too, play on the idea of dragcave being a platonic adoptables site where I can just leave things be for extended periods and I could still expect my dragons to be there safe and sound.

 

However, as a player, I like to think that we are given ample means to protect our eggs from sickness. We have an action that protects them from sickness from an extended amount of time. We have actions that can prevent them from earning views entirely. If we so wish, we can also hide our scrolls to prevent people from peeking at our precious growing things. I think that gives users an array of options that does not necessarily limit you from doing only one thing or another. The sentiment I see, is that, despite all these options, users claim that they are not enough. That they're fairly ineffective when it comes to protecting eggs from sickness. 

 

I beg to disagree. 

 

The concept of sickness, I think, is what sets dragcave apart from other adoptables sites. Our eggs can sick. They can die. If we take care of them, they may grow without fuss. If we neglect them, they'll be harmed unless we catch it on time. It's realistic. I believe that an enjoyable game does not require excessive handholding from the administration, which is what dragcave will be if the sickness system is eliminated entirely. 

 

However, I will not discount the truth that eggs getting sick is a two-way street. There is only so much we can do when someone is decidedly bent on attacking our eggs.  I would agree that the existence of sickness is more of a problem than a benefit. However, sickness, as a game mechanic, isn't at fault. Most, if not all sicknesses I've come to hear and experience are user-induced, whether it's from the user side, or the attacker side.

 

 

 

A few things to address other things already stated in the thread/reasonable points I've seen discussed in the discord:

• When I've found my eggs with views last Christmas, they were never on any hatcheries and I don't think a viewbomber would be considerate enough to take the scrolls out once they decided they're done attacking. I do not object to hatchery protection, like asking for your password when you put eggs in, but keep in mind that a dedicated viewbomber can and will find ways to attack us, hatcheries or not.  

• While it adds a bit of protection, I don't support adding time to an egg or a hatchling once they are sick. I agree that it will help more people, but some people do play with this mechanic to create zombies. If you're going to say that they have other ways to create zombies (manual killing and letting hatchlings run out of time), well, you have other ways to protect eggs too, but you're clearly still going for this. All things have their pros and cons, and I'm presenting the very small "pro" in this. 

• While it also adds a bit of protection, I also don't support blocking the accumulation of views while an egg/hatchling is on a teleport. While I am also not into making it, I've seen that it is vital to cooperative neglecting. (I believe we're not allowed to talk about this in-depth, so I suppose you get the drift if you've at least tried making one through this method). 

• I would fully support an action that prevents the accumulation of views for eggs just as hatchlings do. Like stun, but for eggs. We go as far as purposefully neglecting eggs and killing dragons to get special breeds, I don't think it's beyond us to form a viable explanation about how such an action comes to be. 

• Personally, I think Ward is a double-edged sword, and while I see others using it, I do not see it as more beneficial than harmful. It just prevents death from sickness, and that's about as useful as using anaesthesia on a lethal wound. Without the awareness of how much damage your egg has accrued, (or having the awareness but given the comfort that it can stay like that because it is protected), it becomes fairly easy to neglect an egg. As it's said in the thread before-- It's a viewbomber's friend. It's about as much as your friend as it is theirs. However, that does not mean that I will not support tweaks on Ward. Just because I'm not a fan doesn't entail me shooting down suggestions about how it can be helpful.

• I agree on extending the time for ward, to some extent-- in fact, I think 8 to 10 hours would be perfect. People who go to school or go to work are often out for more than that amount of time, but people who don't have access to internet or cannot drop by the site for workplace restrictions within that time. Most of both of those are tied for eight to nine hours, at most, on a regular basis. That means, that with the consideration of transportation and traffic, they have a slight leeway in catching their eggs, if ever it became a victim during their absence, but not enough to be completely ignorant about it.

• I would also support being able to ward the same dragon a few times. If a limit or a penalty has to be placed, I would like to suggest a limit of three, with an effectiveness reduction cut by half for every time a new ward is placed. Something along the lines of its effectiveness being reduced because the egg has been exposed to it before. 6 hours for the first time, 3 hours on the second time, and 1.5 hours for the third time. 

 

And, I apologize that it had gotten so long vv"

Edited February 28, 2018 by esse

[Andromen]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

OR you need to hide your scroll when you go to bed or are away from your desk for any length of time.. As most of us already do. There's no "have to" about this, to be honest and TJ has already said that he will not raise the time on Ward, and explained why.

 

ETA I also would NOT have a public group of your growing things. Makes it that much faster to find and bomb them individually...

I see now, I'll hide that group or something. Same for the scroll. I do play DC on my phone a lot so I can tend to them quickly (which is good, haven't had a dragon die from sickness).

 

it's also my mentor speaking...

[HeatherMarie]

4 hours ago, esse said:

However, as a player, I like to think that we are given ample means to protect our eggs from sickness. We have an action that protects them from sickness from an extended amount of time. We have actions that can prevent them from earning views entirely. If we so wish, we can also hide our scrolls to prevent people from peeking at our precious growing things. I think that gives users an array of options that does not necessarily limit you from doing only one thing or another. The sentiment I see, is that, despite all these options, users claim that they are not enough. That they're fairly ineffective when it comes to protecting eggs from sickness. 

 

I beg to disagree. 

 

The concept of sickness, I think, is what sets dragcave apart from other adoptables sites. Our eggs can sick. They can die. If we take care of them, they may grow without fuss. If we neglect them, they'll be harmed unless we catch it on time. It's realistic. I believe that an enjoyable game does not require excessive handholding from the administration, which is what dragcave will be if the sickness system is eliminated entirely. 

 

However, I will not discount the truth that eggs getting sick is a two-way street. There is only so much we can do when someone is decidedly bent on attacking our eggs.  I would agree that the existence of sickness is more of a problem than a benefit. However, sickness, as a game mechanic, isn't at fault. Most, if not all sicknesses I've come to hear and experience are user-induced, whether it's from the user side, or the attacker side.

 

I agree with most of your post, to an extent. But the thing is, if sickness is meant to keep people active (having to check on your babies instead of just throwing them into a hatchery and forgetting about them) or meant to reduce server load by having every single new egg shoved into tons of hatcheries, or.... Pretty much *whatever* reason sickness actually has, it definitely seems like a flaw in the sickness mechanic for it to be able to kill eggs *in minutes* because of an *outside source* that users have absolutely no control over. We can do everything right, fog and Ward and not add anything anywhere until they are ER-timed etc etc, we can be sitting here staring at our eggs not leaving them for a second, and they can *still* die if some stranger decides to attack them. That definitely seems like a fault to me.

 

Also, the measures we have against sickness right now *are* fairly ineffective in the majority of extreme viewbombing cases. Hiding a scroll is a great protection, but you have to unhide it to add things to hatcheries (at least in my experience that's true?), so you can't keep it hidden all the time because you eventually need to make your dragons grow. We don't actually have anything that 'protects them from sickness from an extended amount of time', unless you mean fog, but again it only works when you don't need to hatch anything. Once you unfog them they can be killed almost immediately. Ward is pretty useless at the moment, 6 hours isn't enough time to get a proper night's sleep or get in a full day's work, and it can only be used once per egg, and in my experience sickness often isn't 'cured' within 6 hours anyways. 

 

I very much agree that eliminating sickness completely is not the answer, but *something* should be done. Sickness is fine if we can *do* something about it, but when an outside force can kill an egg within minutes there really is very little we can do on our end, even if we catch it right away, and I don't think that's right.

[olympe]

While I agree that we do have ways to take care of our eggs, there's one very big chink in our eggs' and/or hatchlings' collective armors: Trading. You cannot protect any egg/hatchling you're trying to trade, unless you count ward (lasts for 6 hours) and stun (no more views for 48 hours). The first is too little, the second too late for eggs.

[Fuzzbucket]

My suggestion that lineages can be viewed when a fogged egg is in a teleport would deal with that. It wouldn't be open to abuse, as it would if views stopped when something was in teleport. but it would be safe.

 

and later posts

Edited February 28, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Well, it used to be possible to view the lineage link of a fogged egg/hatchling when I started playing, so I know this should be possible to code for TJ.  Which only leaves the ability to use "Hide/Unhide" on stuff in teleports.

[JavaTigress]

6 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I agree with most of your post, to an extent. But the thing is, if sickness is meant to keep people active (having to check on your babies instead of just throwing them into a hatchery and forgetting about them) or meant to reduce server load by having every single new egg shoved into tons of hatcheries, or.... Pretty much *whatever* reason sickness actually has, it definitely seems like a flaw in the sickness mechanic for it to be able to kill eggs *in minutes* because of an *outside source* that users have absolutely no control over. We can do everything right, fog and Ward and not add anything anywhere until they are ER-timed etc etc, we can be sitting here staring at our eggs not leaving them for a second, and they can *still* die if some stranger decides to attack them. That definitely seems like a fault to me.

 

Also, the measures we have against sickness right now *are* fairly ineffective in the majority of extreme viewbombing cases. Hiding a scroll is a great protection, but you have to unhide it to add things to hatcheries (at least in my experience that's true?), so you can't keep it hidden all the time because you eventually need to make your dragons grow. We don't actually have anything that 'protects them from sickness from an extended amount of time', unless you mean fog, but again it only works when you don't need to hatch anything. Once you unfog them they can be killed almost immediately. Ward is pretty useless at the moment, 6 hours isn't enough time to get a proper night's sleep or get in a full day's work, and it can only be used once per egg, and in my experience sickness often isn't 'cured' within 6 hours anyways. 

 

I very much agree that eliminating sickness completely is not the answer, but *something* should be done. Sickness is fine if we can *do* something about it, but when an outside force can kill an egg within minutes there really is very little we can do on our end, even if we catch it right away, and I don't think that's right.

I wonder THO..... just how often does veiwbombing result in death in MINUTES. 

 

IF we are talking about that  EATW situation..... that was an extreme situation.

HORRIFIC, no doubt, for those who were effected by it,AND, of course it ought to be addressed. THAT being said.... I have the idea that such a  thing happens only very rarely? 

 

IF I am wrong about that, do correct me. I just viewed that as a particularly EGREGIOUS example of what we are talking about. 

I had the idea.... again maybe wrong.... that with MOST viewbombing a user COULD do something about IF they caught it in time. 

I DO agree that the mechanic needs to be tweaked to prevent such abuse. 

 

Forgive me if my comments seem callous. My views on it may be shaped by the fact that,mercifully, my scroll was spared that EATW horror. I got wind of it on here BEFORE I put my eggs in that site.( LUCKY I did, because it was one I always regularly used and one of the first ones I put into for hatching) For that I can only thank those who warned the forums about it. I would point out that that was, as I gather, an attack on the hatchery itself..... and NOT on any given individual and ONLY those dragons IN the hatchery when the attack hit were affected. HORRIBLE, of course, BUT barring a literal attack on a hatchery of that kind... I wonder how likely an attack  capable of carnage in mere minutes is. Perhaps,of course,I am naive. 

 

I always viewed it as a danger to be watched for, of course, but something that COULD be protected against by judiciously doing all the things you listed.

Edited February 28, 2018 by JavaTigress

[tjekan]

I understand that sickness isn't going to be removed from the game, because it generates more clicks for the site. OK. But I see no reason why eggs/hatchlings actually DYING from it helps anybody. Just make dragon eggs and hatchlings automatically fog whenever they get sick. This would be sufficiently annoying that newbies would want to learn to avoid it, and it would stop people from just dumping their eggs in a hatchery and never checking on them, but it would prevent anyone from ever being able to kill eggs through viewbombing and they would have to find another hobby.

[Ratto]

5 minutes ago, tjekan said:

I understand that sickness isn't going to be removed from the game, because it generates more clicks for the site. OK. But I see no reason why eggs/hatchlings actually DYING from it helps anybody. Just make dragon eggs and hatchlings automatically fog whenever they get sick. This would be sufficiently annoying that newbies would want to learn to avoid it, and it would stop people from just dumping their eggs in a hatchery and never checking on them, but it would prevent anyone from ever being able to kill eggs through viewbombing and they would have to find another hobby.

That or sickness could just stunt growth for a while. That might help. All I know is that I’m tired of keeping my scroll hidden all the time now.

[HeatherMarie]

@JavaTigress Yes, the EATW attack was the most extreme case of mass-dragon-death I've ever seen around here. I've been here for a loooong time and it was actually the *first* time I've ever seen eggs die in less the five minutes. It's an extreme example and (hopefully) one that we'll never have to deal with again. But the fact that it *can* happen at all, that there is nothing in place to stop those malicious people from doing that and nothing us users can do to protect our dragons in that extreme case, that's worrying to me. Even if it never happens again to that extent, the fact that it *can* happen and we can't do anything about it, that needs to change. 

[olympe]

Well, TJ stated that he is paying attention to the situation. Which probably/hopefully means that he has an idea of what to do in case of another hatchery attack. (Probably coding something that catches on if any one fansite suddenly generates way more traffic than usual and cutting it off from access to DC's data, like he did manually for EATW? Dunno, but it's what I would do if I could code.)

 

If that is indeed the case - and that's still a big if - then we really don't have to fear for a repetition of the EATW attack. However, I'd really like to know what TJ has in mind. Because there are a lot of great minds around here, and we could help out with ideas and/or playing devil's advocate.

[Alrexwolf]

What's the point of making a game about sprite collecting where you can trade/show off your collection except if you want to progress you can never show your scroll anywhere or you have to keep your stuff locked up all the time.

 

Honestly DC always seemed so... backwards to me in that regard. Like, so many people are just so quick to say "well that's the way it is HIDE EVERYTHING if you can't be here EVERY MOMENT" yet people don't think we can have a better system than that? Just because that's how it is doesn't mean that's how it should be. Quite frankly, the fact that I can't share my scroll anywhere really grinds my gears. 

 

By encouraging hiding/fogging/etc as the normal, instead of expecting TJ to fix a broken view/hatch/sickness system is a huge part of the problem. It doesn't have to be that way. It shouldn't be that way. We should be free to share our eggs with friends/on other websites and promote DC by doing so if they're not on DC. 

[JavaTigress]

51 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

@JavaTigress Yes, the EATW attack was the most extreme case of mass-dragon-death I've ever seen around here. I've been here for a loooong time and it was actually the *first* time I've ever seen eggs die in less the five minutes. It's an extreme example and (hopefully) one that we'll never have to deal with again. But the fact that it *can* happen at all, that there is nothing in place to stop those malicious people from doing that and nothing us users can do to protect our dragons in that extreme case, that's worrying to me. Even if it never happens again to that extent, the fact that it *can* happen and we can't do anything about it, that needs to change. 

And I can certainly agree that that exposed a hole that should be fixed.

 

From some things TJ has said, I get the idea he is aware of the issue and is actively working on a fix?

 

Like @Alrexwolf said, I also like to keep my scroll visible, and I do; tho , that said, I choose to fully realizing the risk I am potentially running in doing so.

Edited March 1, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Kovia]

I had a thought.

Perhaps a BSA, maybe something like "Poison" for the Fever Wyvern (are there any others stated to have poison?), that halves the views/UVs of its target. Coupled with fogging and Ward, this could be used to rescue an egg that was attacked but hasn't yet succome. Probably only usable once per dragon on the grounds that too much of the poison would simply kill it.

[Fuzzbucket]

10 hours ago, tjekan said:

I understand that sickness isn't going to be removed from the game, because it generates more clicks for the site. OK. But I see no reason why eggs/hatchlings actually DYING from it helps anybody. Just make dragon eggs and hatchlings automatically fog whenever they get sick. This would be sufficiently annoying that newbies would want to learn to avoid it, and it would stop people from just dumping their eggs in a hatchery and never checking on them, but it would prevent anyone from ever being able to kill eggs through viewbombing and they would have to find another hobby.

 

Automatic fogging would remove the need to watch your scroll yourself. I really don't think TJ would go for that, and I actually hope he wouldn't. (The generation of clicks isn't the reason for needing them; it's to make us actually PLAY that we need to get the views.)

 

10 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, TJ stated that he is paying attention to the situation. Which probably/hopefully means that he has an idea of what to do in case of another hatchery attack. (Probably coding something that catches on if any one fansite suddenly generates way more traffic than usual and cutting it off from access to DC's data, like he did manually for EATW? Dunno, but it's what I would do if I could code.)

 

If that is indeed the case - and that's still a big if - then we really don't have to fear for a repetition of the EATW attack. However, I'd really like to know what TJ has in mind. Because there are a lot of great minds around here, and we could help out with ideas and/or playing devil's advocate.

 

If TJ is - as he has said he is - working on a solution for viewbombing (NOT for sickness; sickness is a mechanic that is a part of the game TJ created and which he has said many times will stay a part of the game) the last thing we need to do is discuss it in public, and give would-be bombers the ammunition to get around it.

 

And about individual fan sites - there are ways to viewbomb that don't use fan sites. Denying access to a hatchery - except in the way he and ext did for EATW - and IIRC another fan sites that was attacked in a smaller way - won't stop viewbombing. I imagine it would have to be more at the egg/hatchie end. Which could spell trouble for experiments - but maybe we would just have to bite the bullet for the sake of normal play.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Fuzzbucket