Allow Valentines/Christmas dragons to be either gender

[Jazeki]

2 hours ago, VixenDra said:

 

 

As for the artists who object, Bribe them with more CB SAs ;A: (please, just let your mind change somehow - FOR THE GREATER GOOD of DC!)

As someone who worked on a holiday dragon that didn't get chosen, I think it's a bit unfair to assume that artists only make their holidays for the alts. I worked for a month to design the concept (including why it was female only: egg temperature) to be something that users would hopefully be able to work from when doing their own DC activities--lore and lineage-wise. I loved the alt versions, but after some thought, I ended up asking that it be considered for a future normal release. I'm sure that users who submit concepts for multiple years in a row have pretty strong concepts that go far beyond "yay, I have an alt" and to discount their creativity in favor of being able to have two genders is a bit disparaging. I know that some parts of the concepts are annoying (colors locked to scrolls, alts, breeding times, etc.), but we shouldn't force them to make dragons be two genders just because we want them. 

 

Edit to add that I'm in favor of creators making two-gender/influencable holidays if they want to. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Jazeki

[Lurhstaap]

If the artists are against it, then I'm against it. End of story. The dragons are their creation and their will should be respected. With that said, I would like it if it were an option for people who DO want to make their holiday have both sexes. I mean, Hollies are found in both sexes as CBs thanks to past raffles, so why not? It's not like it's totally unprecedented. Creative freedom for our hard-working content creators - more of it is always good. But changing the existing ones is a whole kettle of fish. I mean, what about sprites? Are you asking for new dimorphic sprites, which means you're asking the artists to do even more work? Or are you saying we should just use the same sprite for both sexes - possibly running headlong into the fact that the spriter created it specifically to be male or female? There are just so many issues here that I think changing the older breeds is more trouble and drama than it's worth.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Lurhstaap

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, Jazeki said:

Edit to add that I'm in favor of creators making two-gender/influencable holidays if they want to. 

 

My bold. But not for changing past unless unless THEY choose to. Not because of pressure from players. Nor by trying to bribe them. We are lucky to have spriters, for heaven's sake.

[blockEdragon]

5 hours ago, Dalek Raptor said:

No! There is a reason why the artists choose not to have the opposite gender and we must respect their decision to keep them this way. 

Really? every singe artist choose to have their holiday dragon be one gender NOT out of tradition but because they wanted them to out of their own hearts desire?

That's really a stretch when we've had every singe holiday be female/male only (hush about the hollies and mistletoe) but we have never had another gender excclusive breed suggested or added, and every other gender exclusive breed has been diversified.

I think it's less having the freedom then more picking one gender due to a weird tradition and designing around that (even though there's maybe one paragraph's worth of holiday gender-lore that really talks about the dragon's single gender thing)

 

Not only that but as much flack as i'll get for saying this this, an artist's wish sometimes has be compromised or set aside for the greater game-play, Terrae dragons for example where gonna be a new subspecies called "Dragas" but TJ wouldn't allow it. Sure it's kinda sad that the artist didn't get 100% of what they want but when it comes to adding to a greater project sometimes you have to give one or two things up.

 

Oh and before I get the "your disrespecting the artists you monster!" (because I know how people react to criticizing the spriters and this is GOING to happen)

This is a form of criticism, as far as i'm aware criticism is allowed, if it's not then the suggestions forum needs to be closed because suggestions criticism TJ's choices. We will never move forward as a site if one aspect is completely untouchable for fear that the people involved might melt if someone tells them they're wrong.

 

(another big disclaimer, I'm not saying the spriters are actually gonna have a meltdown if anyone so much as tells them they're wrong, I have and heard of criticism being met with throat rips and having "BE THANKFUL YOU PARASITE" spat at you repeatedly by a portion the player-base in the past for the crime of saying something was a bad choice, I don't think the spriters are like that)

 

3 hours ago, Lurhstaap said:

 Are you asking for new dimorphic sprites, which means you're asking the artists to do even more work? Or are you saying we should just use the same sprite for both sexes - possibly running headlong into the fact that the spriter created it specifically to be male or female? There are just so many issues here that I think changing the older breeds is more trouble and drama than it's worth.

 

Half the sprites on the site are non-dimorphic, a lot of real creatures are non-dimorphic, dimorphisam has always been optional.

Edited November 3, 2017 by blockEdragon
Caught a typo

[Moonlight_Eevee]

@blockEdragon how would you feel if you had a holiday dragon and you would prefer it to stay a certain gender and this pops up and someone tells you that artists opinions doesn't matter on this subject and that this is going to happen just because they want it? As an upcoming concept designer, seeing that the artists and concept designer's opinions doesn't matter makes me feel rather disgusted to read

 

[Fuzzbucket]

39 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

Really? every singe artist choose to have their holiday dragon be one gender NOT out of tradition but because they wanted them to out of their own hearts desire?

That's really a stretch when we've had every singe holiday be female/male only (hush about the hollies and mistletoe) but we have never had another gender excclusive breed suggested or added, and every other gender exclusive breed has been diversified.

I think it's less having the freedom then more picking one gender due to a weird tradition and designing around that (even though there's maybe one paragraph's worth of holiday gender-lore that really talks about the dragon's single gender thing)

 

Not only that but as much flack as i'll get for saying this this, an artist's wish sometimes has be compromised or set aside for the greater game-play, Terrae dragons for example where gonna be a new subspecies called "Dragas" but TJ wouldn't allow it. Sure it's kinda sad that the artist didn't get 100% of what they want but when it comes to adding to a greater project sometimes you have to give one or two things up.

 

Oh and before I get the "your disrespecting the artists you monster!" because I know how people react to criticizing the spriters and this is GOING to happen

This is a form of criticism, as far as i'm aware criticism is allowed, if it's not that the suggestions forum needs to be closed because suggestions criticism TJ's choices. We will never move forward as a site if one aspect is completely untouchable for fear that the people involved might melt if someone tells them they're wrong.

 

Consider yourself flacked. It is hardly making for "greater gameplay" just to change a dragon to be both genders - and there are a lot of platyers who see that possibility as a negative anyway.

 

Whether or not it was because of tradition, the fact remains that the dragons were designed as single gender - AND some of the creators do not want that changed. Where TJ nixed something BEFORE a release isn't in the same class as trying to change it after the event and against a creator's wishes..  If a spriter wants their dragon to stay as it is. I think it behooves us to respect that.

[blockEdragon]

@Dalekraptor

I'd be a little bit annoyed but that's part of adding a dragon to a site that is not yours, sometimes problematic things have to be changed, sometimes you can't have 100% of what you want from your concept.

Their opinions matter but so dose the gameplay.

 

[LibbyLishly]

30 minutes ago, Dalek Raptor said:

@blockEdragon how would you feel if you had a holiday dragon and you would prefer it to stay a certain gender and this pops up and someone tells you that artists opinions doesn't matter on this subject and that this is going to happen just because they want it? As an upcoming concept designer, seeing that the artists and concept designer's opinions doesn't matter makes me feel rather disgusted to read

 

She did NOT say it doesn't matter. She said sometimes what creators want needs to be compromised one way or another. She did NOT say artist's opinions should be discounted entirely. 

 

I agree with you as far as not really wanting breeds that were created to be one gender forcibly change to be two, but you're making this way more dramatic than it needs to be.

Edited November 3, 2017 by LibbyLishly
Fixing gendered pronouns

[Shadowdrake]

59 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

Terrae dragons for example where gonna be a new subspecies called "Dragas" but TJ wouldn't allow it.

That situation's completely different from this one: "dragas" were never implemented, which is different from changing a concept once it's already out and accepted as-is on the official site.

 

 

If theoretically, this gender change were to happen, what exactly does this add to the table anyway?

Edited November 3, 2017 by Shadowdrake

[blockEdragon]

6 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

If theoretically, this were to happen, what exactly does this add to the table anyway?

it's a removal of unnecessary breeding and design constraints and the retirement of a stupid tradition that dose nothing for the site.

 

And while it's not a 1:1 example it is an example of a dragon not being allowed to have 100% of what the artist wants.

 

 

(One more small thing

@LibbyLishly not a big deal at all, my username is kinda on the more masculine sounding side so I get this a lot, but just for future reference *she)

Edited November 3, 2017 by blockEdragon

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Okay @blockEdragonbut what about the artists who did sprite some on the holiday dragons and then left the site some odd time later? TJ would have to get their permission if this were to be implemented.

[LibbyLishly]

6 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

(One more small thing

@LibbyLishly not a big deal at all, my username is kinda on the more masculine sounding side so I get this a lot, but just for future reference *she)

Whoops, sorry about that! Appropriate pronouns duly noted.

[EscapistLore]

1 minute ago, blockEdragon said:

it's a removal of unnecessary breeding and design constraints and the retirement of a stupid tradition that dose nothing for the site.

 

And while it's not a 1:1 example it is an example of a dragon not being allowed to have 100% of what the artist wants.

 

But as someone else said, that's before the dragon was added to the site. A little different than dragons that have already been implemented and added and have lore (for all that it hasn't been added to the Encyclopedia yet), that TJ has already approved.

 

Design constraints? People could submit dragons and request CBs be both male and female, if they so chose. Not sure how well that'd work (I have no idea why TJ picks what TJ picks so I couldn't say if it would or not), but they could do so. I actually like that tradition, and would be very sad to see it go, and I've stated my opinions on the Snows. Based of what Cyradis said, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

I suppose I don't see any unnecessary breeding or design restraints. I suppose, if I stretch it, maybe. But then, if I stretch it, golds not giving us gold eggs all the time, or the Celestial breeding mechanism could be classified under the unnecessary breeding restraints... I don't think they do at all, don't get me wrong! Just thoughts.

[blockEdragon]

Just now, Dalek Raptor said:

Okay @blockEdragonbut what about the artists who did sprite some on the holiday dragons and then left the site some odd time later? TJ would have to get their permission if this were to be implemented.

Then have future dragons be both gender and allow the dragons from consenting artists to gender properly.

Though I would be left wondering why people that left the site care that much.

 

@LibbyLishly

It's not a big deal

 

@EscapistLore

Rarity and breeding odds are totally different then an entire GENDER, you can breed them like any other dragon and that's how the basic site functions.

 

And as for celestial, they ARE a problem, being the only dragon able to multi-clutch makes them or dragons related to them almost a constant on the AP, and they're super annoying to schedule around.

But again, they're not walled off from an entire gender.

[mouse050909]

If they 2 CB limit isn't changed, then I'd prefer for them to be one gender only. If the limit is changed/removed, another option would be to allow the artists to choose whether to or to not sprite another gender. 

[EscapistLore]

1 minute ago, blockEdragon said:

Then have future dragons be both gender and allow the dragons from consenting artists to gender properly.

Though I would be left wondering why people that left the site care that much.

 

@LibbyLishly

It's not a big deal

 

@EscapistLore

Rarity and breeding odds are totally different then an entire GENDER, you can breed them like any other dragon and that's how the basic site functions.

 

And as for celestial, they ARE a problem, being the only dragon able to multi-clutch makes them or dragons related to them almost a constant on the AP, and they're super annoying to schedule around.

But again, they're not walled off from an entire gender.

 

You didn't say breed or gender constraint, you said breeding constraint. So my point stands. As a gender constraint, I think, sure, for 'basic site' dragons, as you put it, people don't do that, but for the holidays, I for one want it kept. Just like I would hate to suggest that the breeding mechanic for celestials are changed.

 

I guess for me, I see no issue with something being different than how the 'basic site' works. I've said my piece here, and I know I'm not the only conceptor/alt owner/spriter/etc who feels this way. I don't see how this helps the site other than trying to make them like everything else. And Snows are male, and I want them to stay that way. If there are unlimited rereleases, I'll maybe reconsider.. maybe. I do not promise my answer would change.

 

I would like for the holidays, if rereleased, to stay the gender they were originally.

 

[blockEdragon]

19 minutes ago, EscapistLore said:

 

You didn't say breed or gender constraint, you said breeding constraint. So my point stands. As a gender constraint, I think, sure, for 'basic site' dragons, as you put it, people don't do that, but for the holidays, I for one want it kept. Just like I would hate to suggest that the breeding mechanic for celestials are changed.

Breeding constraints are when a dragon is unable to function like normal, when certain things become impossible due to unusual limits.

All holidays have them, the subgroups have them and single gender dragons have them.

 

Rares can breed with other dragons (excluding subgroups) and can be either gender, there are no real walls between any lineage you wanna make, rarity is not a constraint, it's basically a difficulty level.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, EscapistLore said:

 

You didn't say breed or gender constraint, you said breeding constraint. So my point stands. As a gender constraint, I think, sure, for 'basic site' dragons, as you put it, people don't do that, but for the holidays, I for one want it kept. Just like I would hate to suggest that the breeding mechanic for celestials are changed.

 

I guess for me, I see no issue with something being different than how the 'basic site' works. I've said my piece here, and I know I'm not the only conceptor/alt owner/spriter/etc who feels this way. I don't see how this helps the site other than trying to make them like everything else. And Snows are male, and I want them to stay that way. If there are unlimited rereleases, I'll maybe reconsider.. maybe. I do not promise my answer would change.

 

I would like for the holidays, if rereleased, to stay the gender they were originally.

 

 

I agree with all this especially the bolded bit. We've managed fine with the breeding constraint up until now. What is the huge problem ?

 

They DO function as normal. You (blockEdragon) just don't like what has been for many years the holiday norm. That isn't the site's problem. If the creators want it changed - that is their prerogative, not yours.

[Jazeki]

3 hours ago, blockEdragon said:

Really? every singe artist choose to have their holiday dragon be one gender NOT out of tradition but because they wanted them to out of their own hearts desire?

That's really a stretch when we've had every singe holiday be female/male only (hush about the hollies and mistletoe) but we have never had another gender excclusive breed suggested or added, and every other gender exclusive breed has been diversified.

I think it's less having the freedom then more picking one gender due to a weird tradition and designing around that (even though there's maybe one paragraph's worth of holiday gender-lore that really talks about the dragon's single gender thing)

 

 

I've seen other artists express their relief that they can "relax" and design a holiday that's one gender.  As for me, yes, my concept was intended to be female only and I worked the lore around  the fact that they would be female. If I wanted to design a male only breed, then I would have done the same thing. Maybe there have been influenceable holiday concepts. TJ just hasn't chosen to release one yet. We may be getting close since the release of the Aegises and their ability to alt or not based on a user's choice. You're welcome to create a concept that can be influenced if you want to, but I don't see a reason to forcefully change old dragons if the artists don't want it. 

[Sazandora]

Well, if the artists and conceptors say no then I'll say no as well. Some holiday dragons definitely look so masculine/feminine that they'd look really silly if both genders were available to them; just imagine a female Aegis.

As for realism, dragons are magical creatures, they can be whatever the flying they want to be. They don't exist in the real world. There are no rules set in stone about what a dragon is and is not. I could design a beast made of toasters spitting lampposts and call it a dragon, and it could be a dragon because there is no list of "rules" that all would-be dragons have to adhere to. If "how do dragons that are male/female only make more of themselves" is such a problem, then can you explain to me how, say, a gold dragon mating with a stone dragon can produce either, when in real world two different species mating with one another makes hybrids? The answer is really simple - magic. The world of Dragon Cave is a world full of magic. Magic can do anything it wants to do, and dragons are magical beings, so they can do and be whatever they want to do and be.

 

So as I said, if the artists/conceptors say no, then no. You can't force someone to change their minds.

[HeatherMarie]

40 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

I've seen other artists express their relief that they can "relax" and design a holiday that's one gender.  As for me, yes, my concept was intended to be female only and I worked the lore around  the fact that they would be female. If I wanted to design a male only breed, then I would have done the same thing. Maybe there have been influenceable holiday concepts. TJ just hasn't chosen to release one yet. We may be getting close since the release of the Aegises and their ability to alt or not based on a user's choice. You're welcome to create a concept that can be influenced if you want to, but I don't see a reason to forcefully change old dragons if the artists don't want it. 

 

(Bolding mine) Yes, very much this.

 

I have no problem at all with the idea of a new holiday being released that's both genders, but frankly I'm completely fine with the way past holidays are and I really see no reason to change them in such a drastic way. I don't see having one-gender holidays as a constraint or something that hinders game-play, I see it as a pretty cool quirk that happens on this really interesting world and I like that it's different and unique. I do *not* think it would be for the "greater game-play" if old holidays changed so drastically, and in fact I think it would take away from the specialness of holidays.

 

I get that some people think it's limiting and etc etc, but that's just your opinion. Others feel differently, and as has been proven in this thread, some of the spriters feel differently. I would *never* support changing such a core mechanic of a breed against the spriter's wishes. Terras are completely and utterly different, that was a new dragon sub-type being nixed before the dragon even became real in-cave. This is utterly different.

[LadyLyzar]

DC's breeding system is well... non-traditional as it is.  You don't get all your DNA from one parent, but on DC you get either one or the other, a variant of a parent, or in a few cases, a hybrid.  As such, I feel applying real-world mechanics is a bit of a moot point when it comes to the one-gender species debate.
 

Now to be fair - (this is pure speculation on my part) I think a lot of the reason behind the one-gender thing was because with CB limits, this would mean you could not have one of each gender adult and a frozen hatchling if you were a sprite collector.

 

However, this means that many breeds were designed purposely to be this way.  Heartseekers are male only by design, and Ribbon Dancers are female only by design.  To force dimorphism on them would kind of take away from their uniqueness.

[blockEdragon]

21 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

DC's breeding system is well... non-traditional as it is.  You don't get all your DNA from one parent, but on DC you get either one or the other, a variant of a parent, or in a few cases, a hybrid.  As such, I feel applying real-world mechanics is a bit of a moot point when it comes to the one-gender species debate.
 

Now to be fair - (this is pure speculation on my part) I think a lot of the reason behind the one-gender thing was because with CB limits, this would mean you could not have one of each gender adult and a frozen hatchling if you were a sprite collector.

 

However, this means that many breeds were designed purposely to be this way.  Heartseekers are male only by design, and Ribbon Dancers are female only by design.  To force dimorphism on them would kind of take away from their uniqueness.

Dimorphisam in sprites isn't mandatory, there are species with only one real difference between the genders. And what lore? I've never found more then a sentence on this subject.

 

And I don't really see being able to be only one gender as that special. They're already holiday dragons and that's already special, and Halloween dragons can be both genders but no one calls them "not special", how will being able to be either genders ruin any breed?

 

And just because you can make something special doesn't mean you always should, I could design a super special gun that doesn't fire bullets but instead fires whipped cream, it's special but ultimately useless in both the battlefield and the kitchen. I'm not saying holidays are THAT bad but normally I don't think "special" is a good reason for anything.

Edited November 4, 2017 by blockEdragon

[Vhale]

Only reason I'm leery of this is the next step is dimorphism. Which, is not always fun for lineages.

[Pixxelation]

While both of my holiday dragons can be either gender, they were designed specifically with that intent. Most, if not all, single-gender holiday breeds were designed with that constraint in mind, and for that reason I am entirely against this.